Is low intelligence a prerequisite for being a religious fundamentalist?

[KlatooBNikto]

Even with this very obvious disadvantage, one must marvel at the audacity of these people to take on complex scientific topics like Evolution, Creation ( Big Bamg) and stem cell research and the like.
The more ignorant the person is the more vehement their beliefs appear to be.

So one may say faith begets ignorance which begets audacity which begets dabbling which begets exposure of one's ignorance.

[murray hill farm]

1. this theory would paint a large path, if true...

but, on the face of it, it would appear to be true.

[durablend]

2. It's definitely a prerequisite for being a Republican

Without a doubt...

[Nothing Without Hope]

3. Here's a quote about conservatives in general that seems germane here

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." -- John Stuart Mill

[Bosso 63]

20. Great quote

You beat me to it

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

4. No, I think it has to do with a conflicted mind,

fear, anxiety, sometimes addictions, things like that. The simple answers offer comfort to a conflicted person. It's similar to a cult, I think, and cults often attract very intelligent people, but they are usually attracted to the cult because of some type of emotional vulnerability, which overrides their reason.

[GreenPartyVoter]

26. Exactly. I know many fundagelicals, and a lot of them are quite bright

[imenja]

5. am I the only one who sees the irony of this thread?

"So one may say faith begets ignorance which begets audacity which begets dabbling which begets exposure of one's ignorance.":wow:

[Maru Kitteh]

29. No, you are not

It's pretty thick, isn't it?

[Nimrod]

6. I'd say "weak willed" rather

You must be easily led. There are some terribly intelligent people out there who are using that intelligence to further horrific agendas. You wouldn't think such people are weak willed, but consider their complete refusal to allow themselves to be questioned, their disregard of fact and common sense, or even their inability to look at themselves in the mirror.

These are weak people desperate to see themselves as strong and purposeful, and so they've latched on to whatever renders them immune. They wave the Bible and "win" every argument by default because they don't have the will to actually examine their own actions and character.

There's a reason they're called a "flock".

[Michael_UK]

7. Bertrand Russell quote

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts"

[KlatooBNikto]

11. A better quote from Yeats: The best are full of doubt while the worst

are full of passionate intensity.

[oblivious]

8. I think it's more related to personality types than intelligence.

But of course I have nothing to back that up with.

[imenja]

10. culture, the environment in which one is raised

Just like growing up in Saudi Arabia is likely to make one an Islamic fundamentalist.

[amber dog democrat]

12. some of these fundamentalists are sociopaths

Certainly a good number of them show indications of character disorders. It brings to mind the pharse the last refuge of the scoundrels.

Its just better if one keeps clear of zealots of any stripe.
one of my favorite bumper stickers read, " Agnostic. I don't know and you don't either."

[katinmn]

18. my gut reaction is that there is brainwashing involved

in addition to personality types.

[patcox2]

35. There is a type, the "authoritarian" personality, and you are right.

Authoritarians, not surprisingly, like authority, see the world in black and white, are very uncomfortable if they don't have someone to tell them what to do and think and say, and it must be strictly laid out, they crave the certainty, and are very uneasy with ambiguity. Cognitive dissonance, a universal trait, hits them hard when they are threatened, so they are able to ignore and deny contrary facts.

It has nothing to do with stupidity.

Plenty of stupidity everywhere.

[Burma Jones]

9. The word Fundamentalist itself implies ignorance

of any idea beyond a restricted set. It is a willful rejection of any intellectual curiousity. It is the acceptance that a bunch of old men decided everything that is to be believed back in 90 AD (or CE for you sticklers) or 382 AD/CE, or maybe later. I think it is the ultimate expression of a human need to have everything clearly explained regardless of whether that explanation has any basis in fact.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible5.html

[Career Prole]

13. A complete lack of inquisitiveness is required, I would think.

Real development takes off in a child when the child moves beyond requests for basics like food to requests for information.
Keep an eye on those toddlers who never ask "Why?"
They'll make dandy fundies.

[Disturbed]

15. How intelligent is a person that..

believes all those stories in the bible actually happened?

[GarySeven]

52. The problem stems from false theology ...

Or, rather, lack of theology. Most fundies make their theology up as they go along, rejecting the deeply complex philosophy that comes from many serious years of study and philosophical introspection.

I sometimes have to wonder at the certainty of knowledge people have that they "know" there is no God. I wonder if that "certainty" is the result of real thought or analysis or simply contempt at some people who claim, with no thought, to believe in God.

[GarySeven]

50. Just the opposite is true, actually.

Those toddlers who ask "why" are perhaps more likely to become religious than otherwise.

Don't confuse religion with ideology, which is what the fundamentalists do. The more you learn in life, the more you learn what you don't know.

[Career Prole]

54. Which is why I don't accept "because it's in the bible" as an answer

to most of my "whys", so I'll agree to disagree with you.

When people start laying things off as "mysteries of faith" it's because they stopped asking why.

When we're children we keep meeting every explanation with another question...Don't touch the stove...why? Because you'll get hurt...why?...and we keep asking until we're satisfied with the answer, or until Mom gets exasperated and says "Because I said so!"

A mystery of faith is when the church gets exasperated with the questions and says "Because I said so!"

Some folks say "Oh...okay then" and if that makes 'em happy, more power to 'em. I'm happy they're happy.

Others go somewhere else to seek further answers because they're more inquisitive.

[GarySeven]

55. we're not that dissimilar in beliefs ... But -

My problem with religion is that it creates a problem (sin) and then a solution (a specific system of beliefs). In that way, it is not dissimilar to what the soap manufacturers did in the early 1930s; it wasn't until they began marketing the concept that body odor is a "bad" thing that sales of soap began to pick up.

The real issue to me is that when you walk to the edge of the line of where science can explain the universe, you MUST be willing to accept the concept that there may be something beyond science to explain reality. In other words, there are things that cannot be explained rationally, but must be absorbed intellectually as, nevertheless, possible. Too many of us, I think, won't allow ourselves to get to that point, or to trust that human knowledge is limited and always will have limits.

Now, I agree with you (if this is what you are saying) that fundies reach this point too easily and substitute intellectual inquisitiveness with blind acceptance. But I see no reason to disdain them for this, per se. Yet when this blind acceptance is manipulated deliberately by outside forces, particularly political idealogues, then it becomes a danger: not just to the nation, but also to the very idea of intellectual inquisitiveness.

[Career Prole]

56. I believe, sir, that we have reached something all too rare these days.

Common ground. Happy to share it with you! :)

[baldguy]

14. Its more then that.

Fundamentalism denys our basic humanity. Whether you're talking about Osama bin Laden sending people to die for his own political purposes, or Tom Delay using Terry Schaivo to distract from his own criminality and corruption - fundamentalists give up their freedoms to their faith, and their leaders use them like cattle.

[LynneSin]

16. Only for those who follow

For those who lead, I believe it's the exact opposite. These people are cunning enough to use faith to warp those who have a lower IQ into believe all this crap is actually real.

I mean, turn on any TV evangelist - what kind of dumbshit actually watches this stuff AND sends them money? Surely not those who have a fully functioning brain. And I say "Fully Functioning" because unfortunately for many of our elderly the brain function is what it use to be (hell, I'm 39 and I know mine is on the decrease) and they tend to, unfortunately, get sucked into these vultures!

[mwb970]

17. I know a fundie with a PhD in Computer Science.

He is a total genius with computer systems and programming, and has read extensively on British and European history. Yet, he spouts every single one of the fundie talking points: no global warming, 6000-year-old world, we're pure right and they're pure wrong (no matter who "they" are), etc. And of course he despises Bill Clinton with a searing, white-hot passion.

This guy is super "devout", has Bible classes in his home, etc. But in person, he is a smug, arrogant, self-righteous prick that nobody likes. Some Christian!

I figure he is an anomaly who had to decide whether to be the only fundie working among smart people and make a lot of money, or to be the only smart person working among fundies and go broke. He chose the former.

[Maru Kitteh]

30. but see that guy would be a smug self righteous prick

if he were an athiest too.

" we're pure right and they're pure wrong (no matter who "they" are), etc" - I think I've heard that before...............

That has to do with being an asshole, not a Christian. You can find asshole athiests, Hindus, Muslims, etc. Some of them have talents, some are educated and yet............ still assholes.

[yella_dawg]

34. In my experience, Computer Geeks tend to be very religious.

I'm both, Geek and religious. It is weird though. I've worked in several career fields, and the computer field, by far, has more true believers.

Just guessing from my own past, there is no cause - effect thing, as such. I was religious before I became a geek. Maybe it's just that whatever makes one religious also makes one a code-head.

[ihaveaquestion]

19. I've been surprised to learn that several ...

very intelligent acquaintances were Fundies. They were all very nice people and very accepting of others and others' beliefs. I think the difference between Fundies and others is that Fundies aren't at all prone to questioning their basic faith and belief in the supremacy of God in everything. It's a given for them that God is the beginning and end. The focus of their intellectual curiosity seems to be to try to find the God connection in every situation. They are usually successful and, of course, this reinforces their belief system. There's almost no way to talk these folks out of this circular thinking and it's a very appealing vortex to be caught up in.

[mwb970]

23. I guess my problem is when they turn to politics. (n/t)

[Modem Butterfly]

21. I think that gullibility is a quality that leads to religion

Maybe the more gullible you are, the more devout you are, leading to fundamentalism and extremism. Certainly ignorance plays a big part in that as well, which is why so many fundamentalists rail against science and education.

[JerseygirlCT]

22. I don't think one may say that at all

Faith does not beget ignorance.

That said, those who ascribe to fundamentalist interpretations of religion do seem to be the people who require things laid out in black and white. They're not comfortable with "nuance", they need absolutes. They need to be told what's wrong and what's right. They need to believe they live on the right side, and that others they dislike live on the wrong. Beyond that, many are quite willing to take another's word for a variety of things, w/o needing personal inquiry.

None of that seems like faith to me. That's obedience. Faith requires thoughtfulness, it requires doubt and questioning.

[DanCa]

24. I think

I think there are three factors which are the hall mark of Christian Fundamentalist. First it has to do with lack of self esteem, which is why they save everyone to make themselve look better. Secondly there must be a high level of guilt in the persons life. For instance how many "anti abortion" woman have had abortions and lastly I believe it has to do with a lack of intellectual curosity. That is why they soak up thier talking points and act like two year olds when they disagree with you.
I have met several repugs who were highly intelligent but only in one or two areas. The rest of the time they just spewed the same old talking points. Anyhow this is what I think.

[catmandu57]

25. I don't know about lower intelligence, but,

The fundies I know have had some life shattering experience and looking for answers fell into the god trap, simple answers for complex problems.
I believe their leaders are intelligent people, smart enough to use the rest for their benefit without the questioning it.

[ChickMagic]

27. No

Not all fundamentalists are stupid, but it seems that all stupid people are fundamentalists. I know a few doctors where I work who are 7 day creationists and ultra-fundie. I quizzed a thoracic surgeon about that and he said that he makes life and death decisions every single day. It was a comfort for him to let someone else take control about his faith.

[Wapsie B]

39. Yes.

There's a part of them that wants this concrete assurance that they've selected the right path. They cannot live in this murky mystical world of doubt and second guessing; not about something as important to them as to whether there's a hereafter or not.

[Auntie Bush]

28. The above answers are all true. But one reason you forgot is that

they are basically selfish people who lack empathy...and many are rich and don't want to part or share their money. The ones that are poor and vote against their own interest are surly stupid and brainwashed. They think voting for Bush is equivalent to voting for God! They are such fools! Smart people can do foolish things!

[Javaman]

31. No, but it appears to be if you want to be prez....

[iconoclastNYC]

32. Yes unless the fundie is in the leadership

The intelligent fundies don't believe this shit, they know better, they are just in on the action, they use it for power and status.

The rest are all victims, never taught to think critically and most-times born into the cult, or manipulated via hate, to join.

[supernova]

33. It's more fear than anything else

that makes people move toward fundamentalism.

The modern world is a scary place to some folks. Explinations are a lot more detailed and come in a lot more shades of grey than they used to. It reaquires a lot more thought to sort things out in our minds and come to some point of peace with it all than it used to.

This upsets a certain type of person who looks for security and safety in their beliefs and worldviews.

[yella_dawg]

36. My brother is a full-blown Fundie Wackjob

I always thought he was pretty bright. He seemed okay through high school. In college, he got into the Young Republicans and hooked up with a brain-wash cultish Fundie group through his girlfriend-who-is-now-his-ex-wife. Now he is proactively stupid. Mom and I have discussed this several times. He is aggressively and even antagonistically stupid. It's really weird.

He was gay-bashing one day. I asked him why so many people would consciously choose a path that would make them outcast and reviled, just to engage in "perverted" sex acts. (The implication, of course, is that unless someone had genuinely different sexual urges, they would never do such a thing.) It was hilarious to watch his reaction. You could watch his brain trying to engage, but then it would jump out of gear with a pronounced lurch. "Gasping like a fish out of water." comes to mind.


Really weird.

[patcox2]

41. Cognitive dissonance, better known as denial.

Its when people encounter facts or information that conflicts with those beliefs that have become part of their identity. If that belief is wrong, their identity is destroyed, so an attack on their beliefs is actually an attack on them. They usually either go into rages and attack the messenger, or go into complete denial. Family ties kept him from going into the rage against you, so instead he probably had an internal rationalization process going on that allowed him to think that you are wrong and he was right despite your logic.

[yella_dawg]

42. What an amazingly accurate description of our relationship.

You pretty much tagged the interaction between us.

He once started in on Gore "Inventing the Internet". I told him that well, in a manner of speaking, he did. As a geek, funding and political support of the internet was a big deal for me. I paid attention to Gore before anyone ever heard of him. He did exactly what he claimed, although not exactly what the R's accused him of claiming.

My brother's reaction was wildly out of proportion. He attacked me for everything imaginable for weeks. (Okay, everything Rush mentioned.)

[patcox2]

37. Authoritarian Personality Type

Read the article below. Its not the best explanation of it, but its okay. But one thing to remember, authoritarianism and fundamentalism are not beliefs, they are ways of believing. IT IS POSSIBLE TO BE AN AUTHORITARIAN LIBERAL. There are many, they have the same worship of authority figures, its just that they worship liberal authority figures, and they have the same violent response to contrary opinions or facts, the same level of cognitive dissonance towards anything that threatens the certainty they have found.



Personality trait defined using such terms as dogmatic, rigid, low tolerance for ambiguity , and high regard for structural hierarchy . It is considered the antithesis of egalitarianism. The term authoritarianism became one of the most famous in social psychology through a huge research effort on the part of T. W. Adorno and others (1950) after World War II that focused on explaining how the German people could have allowed and participated in the Holocaust that killed over 6 million Jews.
Efforts to explain virulent anti-Semitism focused on the concept of authoritarianism, and a measure of authoritarianism called the "F-scale" came to be perhaps the most used such instrument in all of personality research. Authoritarianism was thought to be related to general prejudice and ethnocentrism as well as to certain lifestyles and belief systems. Specifically, considerable research using the F-scale and related measures has revealed that political and social conservatives and continue

Page 37

traditionally religious people generally score relatively high on such instruments. Many, including especially Milton Rokeach (1960), criticized the concept of authoritarianism as being too limited and ideologically based. Rokeach developed a more general term—dogmatism —that he claimed encompasses authoritarians on both the left and the right of the political spectrum.

The consistent finding of a positive correlation between religiosity and authoritarianism has provoked considerable efforts at explication as well as critiques of the initial work in this area (Altemeyer 1988). The debate has contributed to the development of general notions of intrinsic versus extrinsic religiosity and of such concepts as "religious maturity." Leak and Randall (1995) have shown, for instance, that although authoritarianism is positively correlated with traditional measures of religiosity, it is inversely related to a number of measures of "religious maturity." Such findings offer some solace to religionists and demand further research on the troubling relationship between religiousness and authoritarianism.

See also Ethnocentrism, Faith Development, Fundamentalism, Intrinsic-Extrinsic Religion, Milton Rokeach

—James T. Richardson

References
T. W. Adorno et al., The Authoritarian Personality (New York: Harper, 1950)

B. Altemeyer, Enemies of Freedom (San Francisco: Jossey-Bass, 1988)

B. Altemeyer and B. Hunsberger, "Authoritarianism, Religious Fundamentalism, Quest, and Prejudice," International Journal for the Psychology of Religion 2(1992):113-133

G. Leak and B. Randall, "Clarification of the Link Between Right-wing Authoritarianism and Religiousness," Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion 34(1995):245-252

M. Rokeach, The Open and Closed Mind (New York: Basic Books, 1960)

[formernaderite]

38. As an athetist...I'd say be careful generalizing...

...I work with quite a few black guys who are bible thumping democrat voting pentacostals. Are you gonna call them mentally incompetent too? Religion may indeed be an opiate, but I can tell you that even intelligent people fall for artificial opiates, even chemically induced.

[Deep13]

40. No,

but a lack of knowing how to think critically.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

43. I believe in Christ The King, and my IQ has been measured at

146.

No other comment needed, except for the fact I'm smart enough to know Falwell, Robertson, and company have a special place in hell waiting for them. They are NOT Christians.

[VTMechEngr]

57. I'm a Christian as well in the mensa range

But fundamentalists we are not!

[leftofthedial]

44. there are rare exceptions

but, in my experience, generally, it is easier to con stupid people.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. No, it has more to do with an authoritarian mindset

and susceptibility to brainwashing.

If you've seen documentaries about North Korea, you've seen interviews with perfectly intelligent looking people who get that glazed look in their eyes when they talk about all the blessings that Kim Jong-il has brought them.

I feel like making fundamentalists watch documentaries like that, and when such a scene comes up, telling them, "That's you! That's what you look like to outsiders."

[ernstbass]

46. They see the world in black/white, all/nothing

and fail to see the grey area or middle ground in things. Everything is in terms of absolutes.

[Stirk]

47. No, not really. It takes two things:

1) You have to be intensely ashamed of your urges. They can be sexual urges, chemical urges, or even something like gambling.

2) You have to be completely incapable of internalizing this struggle, and recognizing that you yourself have these urges.

Everything else follows naturally from there. They create evil phantom enemies (Satan, the "Gay Agenda", etc.) and project all the things they hate about themselves onto these fanatasy bogie men. Then all they need to do is hate their chosen bogie man.

This is why so many conservative and fundamentalists are eventually exposed as major league hypocrites. They tend to crusade against the very things they do themselves.

[TWiley]

48. Only if it is low enough to qualify for STUPIDITY.

They talk out their ass. This is why they can discuss anything as if they know each topic intimately.

They are so used to making up bullshit to explain why God hates sinners and wants to send them to hell, No wait, God actually loves sinners which is why he decided to torture and kill his only son in order to forgive the rest of us for being the humans he created.

You see, God, for some reason, demands a blood sacrifice in order to make himself happy enough to forgive the mistakes he made during creation. This is why you must recite a majic prayer in order to be "saved" from something that nobody can identify.

Now, give me 10% of your income, or the heavenly flux will get in a bad mood and shrivel your balls up while your hair is set afire.

You see, this is done because God Loves you, and wants you to be happy.

Next we will discuss constitutional law, and its relationship with creationism in our next story titled "God's handiwork was not designed for the heathen." Be sure to tune in. buh bye and gawd bless.

[libnnc]

49. I'm not sure if its low intelligence or

something emotional involved. I've know some brilliant people who are fundamentalist. What drives them, though is some kind of emotional weakness that they have to have this "thing" controlling their lives and providing them a crutch to lift their egoes, putting them artificially "above" everyone else because they're "saved".

libnnc
www.folkmoot.com

[ktowntennesseedem]

51. Short answer: yes. Long answer...

The fundamentalists' views thrive on simple acceptance, and are threatened by anyone "thinking-outside-the-box." I know many who have heard horrow stories of the young person who went away to college and came home having lost their faith to liberalism and secularism. So many of them actually encourage ignorance and avoid anything that might educate them and expose them to thoughts and ideas contrary to their beliefs.

They are partly correct, because getting an education (at least one that is worth anything) will change you and expose you to new ideas and thoughts. But I don't believe for a minute that one must trade their faith for education. My faith has only grown because of fresh new ideas and paradigms I have encountered. My former fundamentalist friends would argue I've lost my faith; I would counter that merely abandoned the childish notions of my youth in favor of a much richer and fuller faith. (Paul, 1 Corinthians 13) And as a Baptist who, unlike so-called Baptists these days, still believes in the priesthood of the believer, I am the only one speaking for my faith that matters.

[BillZBubb]

53. Yes, low intelligence is the number one requirement.

But as your text says the main characteristic of the Fundie mind is ignorance, not low intelligence per se.

You can be intelligent and still be ignorant of certain things because you haven't been made aware of the facts or don't have access to the facts.

What guarantees that Fundies have low intelligence is that they have all the facts available yet still attempt to dispute them or ignore them. Belief trumps knowledge. That is a hallmark of low intelligence.

[Swamp Rat]

58. Yes. After centuries of evidence, isn't it obvious by now?