The Dems Are Killing Themselves by Trashing Dean!

[joeybee12]

Even if you don't support him, you have to agree that Dickie Dickwad, Holy Joe, Nancy Loser Pelosi, et al are being very, very, very stupid and short-sighted about Dean.

He may not get the nomination, but his campaign has energized a new generation of Democratic voters. By trashing Dean and his suporters, they are turning these people off. It's like the 1960's when the civil rights movement and the Vietnam War produced a new generation of Democrats. The Democrats must find a way of keeping these people in the party even if Dean doesn't get the nomination. They won't do it by trashing his supporters on a personal basis. Wake up--the Democratic Party needs a vibrant, and active future! Support who you want, but make sure you don't alienate this large base!

[Trajan]

1. And so: in the spirit of your proclamation ....

You decided to use insulting 'pet names' for Richard Gephardt, Nancy Pelosi and Joe Liebermann .....

Perhaps a dictionary review of the word "Hypocrisy" would be appropriate at this time .....

[joeybee12]

3. Screw your use of hypocrisy!

I probably shouldn't have called them that, but I have a point, dammit! Those three need to wake up,a nd if calling them names gets attention, so be it!

[newsguyatl]

8. i agree with you joeybee

some of these folks who are criticizing you for using those names are only criticizing because your argument is supporting dean... because i KNOW that some of them have used even worse names...


so don't worry, you're right on target! and i'd call her "nancy peloser" if i were you...lol

[Trajan]

14. Get a grip ....

I would vote for Dean in a hot second ......

Accepting mere insult as argument is hardly endearing to thinking human beings .....

[creativelcro]

50. agree

Joeybee, you have a good point. And the names are funny. -CV

[Bake]

28. Easy to do, sitting at your keyboard in the dark

Would you call Mr. Gephardt "Dickie Dickwad" to his face?

I doubt it. Seriously doubt it. "But dammit, I have a point!" And you just blew it by coming off like a freeper.

Oh well, you're a Deaniac, so I guess it's OK. This is EXACTLY the kind of crap a lot of us are getting quite tired of.

Bake

[Malikshah]

49. The Response that broke this camel's back.

"Oh well, you're a Deaniac, so I guess it's OK."...

That's it. We're toast.

Folks irrational hatred of all things Dean is the legacy of the republican irrational hatred of Clinton.

Yes-- you might have problems with the candidate. Guess what--all the candidates have problems.

The venom spewed against Dean is matched only be that against * (and to a degree Lieberman--not much diff there anyway)

A lot of you just don't realize that you have gone beyond merely not agreeing with a candidate or a supporter in a give-and-take parley--you have moved into the realm of pathetic attacks--anything anything to rip Dean down.

The cries of they started it first etc. is just what it sounds like-- a recess whineybutt session.

Kerry was ripped from his post. Now Dean. Then all things Clark.

Christ--it's a wonder if any of you taking part in this have a shred of self-awareness.

Just leave it. All of you.

Don't make me stop this campaign and turn around....:evilgrin:

At this point--those of you who are hellbent on tearing down other candidates in this race DO NOT deserve to have any victory over * -- Why--because you are all acting just like the freepers did against Clinton/Gore.

Wake up--take your heads out of your partisan kiesters and sing Kumbaya goddamit!

:spank:

[Forkboy]

53. LMFAO

Don't make me stop this campaign and turn around....

Best line I've seen on DU in awhile :D

[Uzybone]

2. And you are drawing more people into the party

by calling the leaders childish names eh? I do agree with your general point however.

[Lefty48197]

4. Any "Democrat" that bashes Gephardt and Pelosi

certainly doesn't belong in this Democratic party.

[joeybee12]

5. Nice argument!

Screw what words I used--if you can'ty see this Democrat Party becoming minimalized, then you're as short-sighted as they are!

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joeybee12]

13. Thanbks for the name calling, Trajan

At least I don't call people on this board names.

And try to refute my basic argument--you can't. Are you employing the bait and switch tactics of Karl Rove and company?

[Trajan]

17. I didnt call anyone any names ..... sheeeesh .....

Furthermore: .... you have 'tactics' ? ....

Its a 'tactic' to insult those who do not support your preferred candidate ? ....

Hmmmmm ? .... isnt that like calling ANYONE who disagrees with your war 'unpatriotic' ? .....

[joeybee12]

20. Saying "Grow Up" is name calling

And you still haven't even come close to addressing the argument I raised!

[Trajan]

27. No it isnt .....

You obviously dont understand that I am NOT renaming you "Grow up" ......

If you are SO far off the mark regarding what constitutes 'name calling', then why would anyone believe you can present any other cogent assertion ? ....

So: ... you 'raised an argument' that Democrats are undercutting other Democrats in a primary race ? .....

And THIS is news ? ....

Where have you been all your long life ? ....

This is EXACTLY what happens EVERY open primary for the opposition party ..... it is EXPECTED that some Democrats will support some Democrat, and some Democrats will NOT support some Democrat ....

But: we do so WITHOUT resorting to childish name calling .....

yeah: ... the REAL name calling: .. not the pretend name calling ....

[joeybee12]

30. You're wrong--this is not simply politics as usual

It is a concerted effort by those within the Dem Party who feel threatened to really derail Dean, and it exposes the really low point of politics.

The people who support Dean, are for the most part, young, and aren't as willing to forgive such tactics.

There's a whole generation out there that the Dems are letting slip out of their hands.

[Nixons Bastard Son]

12. the "party" over people, eh?

i'm not going to support a loser just because they're a Dem. anyway, it seems that, by trashing Dean, the other candidates are isolating the younger generation of Dems...something that will hurt the party in the long run.

keep in mind, random internet guy calling the candidates childish names is not as bad as the candidates themselves bashing one of their own simply because he is successful.

besides, bashing a candidate is bad for one's own campaign - people are sick of that kind of thing, and Dean has done well to keep his criticisms with Bush. i hope Wesley Clark does the same.

[lindashaw]

6. Infiltrators are trashing Dean, we love Dean, we love all our gang.

[Oracle]

7. Happens to the front runner in every primary since John Adams.

get used to it. It will never change...believe me Dean is more than happy to be the front runner and welcomes the bullshit...it's when no ones paying attention to him...that's really damaging!

I'm sure Kucinich wishes he had Deans frontrunner problem...the mainstream press refuses to even hardly acknowledge he's even in the primary...simply because he's very progressive and liberal.

[joeybee12]

11. It's more than his front-runner status....

...the Democratic Party has becoem lethargic with insiders--case in point is 2002--they didn't energize anyone and lost seats.

And it happened in 2000--remember Florida? As disgusting as it was to see the Repukes crashing into the Miami Beach vote-counting, it showed that they were active and mobilized. We need people who will fight, who won't simply bend over and take it.

Compromise is one thing, acquiesence is another.

[kstewart33]

9. You make a good point

I was around during the 1972 Democratic Convention when McGovern was nominated. I was on the convention floor covering it for my university newspaper. His acceptance speech, given after midnight, was a great one that America did not see because everyone was asleep. I remember thinking, what a good speech and great guy, but geez this man will never be elected. And of course, he got trounced.

Dean is McGovern. If he gets the nomination, he is toast. And the Dean nomination will confirm what is unfortunately a predominant characteristic of the Democratic Party--full of admirable principles, but dumb as a post when it comes to picking an electable candidate.

Clark is the greatest hope this party has had since Clinton. If the Dems blow it and hand the nomination to Dean, they deserve to get trounced. I am hoping, praying for geez sake, that this does not happen.

[Nixons Bastard Son]

15. i concur!

clark is our only hope.

also - great story! do you know where i can find a copy of McGovern's 1972 speech?

[joeybee12]

16. Dean won't be handed the nomination...

...too many people working to see that deosn't happen.

If he does get it, it means he's a lot smarter campaigner and has more appeal than most people are giving him credit for.

The Democratic Party is not, not in danger of not nominating Dean, but off turning off the young people who support him. You can have the washington Post say you're the greatest thing and the most electable person, but unless you have committed volunteers and foot soldiers, you ain't going nowhere. Go back to 2002 for a recent history lesson.

[KaraokeKarlton]

21. Spoken like someone who is clueless that "the base" has changed

People who think Dean is being supported by "the liberal base" are the only ones who think like you do. Fact is, it's a whole new base now, thanks to Dean. It's not just liberals anymore. It's moderates, swing voters like myself, moderate Republicans sick of Bush (changing affiliations just to vote for Dean), some of those liberals, tons of Independents, and more people who have never even voted in a primary before than you can shake a stick at. This primary is going to be decided by the same spectrum of voters the general election is decided by. Hell, there's even Republicans who think Dean will be easy to beat who are going to change affiliations just to vote for him. That ones going to come right back and bite them in the ass big time. It's like this...IF Democrats vote for Dean in the general, Dean has energized enough first time voters and alienated voters who just don't bother vote anymore to easily beat Bush. In fact, there is no way Bush can win against Dean as long as the democrats vote for him in the general. The only way he can lose is if the Dem party leaders successfully demonize him with enough Democrats. Oh, and McGovern was a liberal...Dean is a moderate. I know this because I live in the state he governed for over a decade. He's also the only one running who has ever won against the kind of campaign Bush will run against him. There's nothing he can't face and overcome. Nothing.

[Uzybone]

29. LOL....winning an election is freaking Vermont...

is nothing...NOTHING compared to what Bush will throw at him in 2004. Hopefully Dean knows that, becasue if he listens to some of his supporters here he may stop campaigning because he will believe he is a shoo-in.

[joeybee12]

31. It's not freaking Vermont AND it's not Arkansas

Clinton came from a small state--that point seems to be irrelevant.

Besuides, Dumbo's father is just as evil, so if Clinton can pull through, so can Dean.

[zeemike]

23. I remember 1968 Demo Convention

When the young were disenfranchised by the Demos and they went to Chicago to protest. And Daily turned the storm troopers on them and caused a riot.
It was only because of the changes that the party made because of the shameless power grab of 68 that Mcgovern was able to get the nomination in 72.
And Dean is no Mcgovern despite the right wing talking points.

[whirlygigspin]

26. the only McGovern I see maybe Kucinich

All the rest of this nonsense comes from party hacks
who can't stand the fact that Dean has his own base of
support and doesn't have to kiss their ass.

They got their Clark on a leash and will trot him out
hoping the suckers will fall for it.

Been there, done that.

Americans have had enough with the dog and poney show, Hillary;
go sell it to the Israelis, they're still buying it,
hook, line and sinker.

[babzilla]

33. Be careful of your argument

It could be argued that Clark has things in common with McGovern:

- War Hero criticizing the current administration about the current war

- Drafted into the campaign by elements unhappy with the existing candidates

[southern democrat]

52. I'm also a Clark supporter but I beg to differ withyou on your

opinion of Dean.I see little similarities between Mc Govern and Dean.When K.Rove and Rush Limpdick bring this up I just about go ape shit.I can tolerate another Dem bringing it up but it does sadden me.If people look back in history and see what the tricky dickey bunch did to McGovern to win that election and how sorry and illegal it was.Causing Nixon to resign and staining the office.I wouldn't put any thing past whitle-asses bunch,but if they resort to the Nixon tactics,nobody will beat them.In 72 tricky dick ran a illegal dirty campaign and beat McGovern and those fuckers have the gall to demonize McGovern.It certianly chaps my ass.In polotics it's not in to be associated with losers,this is a reality.But I for one am not ashamed of McGovern,at least he did not have to resign to keep from being impeached and pardonded to keep from going to the fedreal penn.With that said ,Dean has a tall task in the south if he wins the nomination,but to Mc Governize Dean the republicans would have to Nixonize whitle-ass and thats unlikely to happen.At the very least Dean gets the Dukakis states and then some if he campaigns well.If he can round up 270 it will be an up hill battle.As it will be for Clark to get the nomination.The way I see it Dean will have an easier task to get the nomination than Clark,and Clark would be tougher to beat in the general election than Dean.Talk about being between a rock and a hard place.

[chadm]

18. I think they are smart

Dean and Kucinich are raising expectations to a point where the party isn't willing to deliver. Customer satisfaction is about managing expectations...so letting these guys go too far would ultimately hurt the party.

[Enraged American]

19. F--- Dean.

He's not a liberal; he just opposed the war. Wow.

The war happened. What you should now be concerned about is economic issues. Dean is a little girl in these matters. "Oh, I want to REVISE nafta." Looks like a fish out of water whenever he's speaking to workers or unions. KUCINICH isn't afraid to piss off free traders.

How DARE you insult Dick Gephardt, a man whose every vote in Congress has been in favor of the worker, a man who relies almost entirely on unions, and not corporations like many Democrats, for his campaigns? Dick Gephardt is what Dean will never be. If Kucinich suddenly died, Gephardt would have my vote.

Don't put Gephardt into the same category as Nancy "I'm liberal, but slaughtering Palestinians is cool" Pelosi and Joe "I don't even try to hide that I'm a Reprick in disguise" Lieberman.

[ScreamingMeemie]

24. Dick Gephardt can be insulted because we live in a free country.

Dean and Kucinich are striving to see that it remains that way. Would my husband vote for Kucinich? Not a snowball's chance in hell. Would he vote for Dean...currently he would. He is my barometer for the undecideds, the group we should all be concerned about...instead of wasting our time shouting insults at those who are basically on our team. Cool it a little. I'd respect your opinion more if you did.

[joeybee12]

25. Gephardt compared Dean to Newt Gingrich

How classy is that? That was a low point, and he needs to stop it now!

I can insult Gephardt and the rest because this is simply a message board, not a press release being sent out to the media.

My piint is--and very few of you are even addressing it--is that these Dems are going to piss people off. We need activist who will support whoever gets the nom, not people who are so disguted that if their candidate doesn't win, they will stay home.

[Brian Sweat]

22. Dean seems like a good candidate,

but he seems to attract some unsavory supporters. Not all of his supporters, just some, but their behavior is obscuring their candidate.

How old are you joeybee12? Is this your first time getting involved with a political campaign?

[w4rma]

32. Brian Sweat, you need to knock it off, buddy.

If you want me to name some posters on DU from *EVERY* candidate who I think engage in unsavory name calling and lies, I'll do that. And you might even see your name on that list. IMHO, as a percentage the Dean supporters on this board have been much fewer Dem bashers than other candidates do.

I fully support joeybee12 in calling out Democrats (ESPECIALLY THE CANDIDATES THEMSELVES) who like throw out reactionary names like Gingrich and McGovern because their desperate and have no clue how to overcome Dean's strengths.

I've been on this board since 2001, and there has been an influx of folks who all want a piece of Dean in every "unsavory" way that they can imagine. I've also seen posters like yourself turn the other direction when this happens and are quick to call out Dean supporters for any minor slight.

[joeybee12]

34. Thank you...w4rma

We're all wound up, which is a good thing. This is not Hardball, this is not Meet The Press, this is not a press release sent out on congressional staionery. This is a place to blow off steam, and if names be thrown at other Dems (elected Dems, that is) fine. Just remember where we are.

[Brian Sweat]

54. Show me an example of where I have engaged in name calling

Or where I have posted a lie about a candidate. I have not attacked Dean and I have not seen to many attacks on Dean. What I have seen mostly is a handful of Dean supporters attack anyone and everyone.

[Cha]

35. All the candidates "attract unsavory supporters" ....

so to single Dean out is to not have been reading the many varied posts on this Board over the last few months.

Disclaimer: I don't think joeybee is "unsavory"!

[joeybee12]

37. Am I unsavory?

Did I miss something? Sure, I'm being a bitch right now, but the Dems are going to blow a great opportunity regardless of who gets the nomination.

It's staring them in the face and they don't see it!

[Cha]

40. No you are Not! I just said I didn't think you were! But the

way the post I was replying to was worded I just wanted to make sure it was understood. :-)

I'm sure you didn't "miss" anything!

I agree with your original post! Whomever we get is going to beat bush...it's just a matter of whom is the Best to lead us out of this Quaggy Quicksand!

[joeybee12]

41. Thanks, and a lot of them CAN beat Bush...

...but don't piss off people in the process.

I can do it here, but elected Dems in leadership positions can't!

I don't recall the repukes knocking their Christian fundamentalist base--they're too smart to do that?

Why are we trying to inslut such a large group of Dems who COULD be very active no matter who gets the nomination??

[Cha]

47. Because the dlc is DENSE! Very Very DENSE!

Obtuse is another descriptive word for them. :-(

[Skwmom]

36. The Dems could be screwing themselves by giving

Dean a free pass while letting him bash other candidates.

[ScreamingMeemie]

38. Huh????? What????

This is the second incoherent post of yours that I have read. Please explain?

[Skwmom]

42. Hope this makes it clear for you.

By giving Dean a free pass and allowing him and his followers to trash other candidates we could end up with Dean in the general election. It would take a damn miracle to win back the whitehouse then.

[joeybee12]

43. NO, NO, NO!

That's what the Repukes want you to believe!

[ScreamingMeemie]

45. Unfortunately, no it doesn't. Explain yourself as in....

Where have you gotten such nonsense? I would value your opinion...maybe...if you would back it up.

Compare and contrast Dean with....hmmmm, say Kerry, or Lieberman.
Instead of, as so many seem to do, coming out with yet another tired, overused statement. Thanks.

[joeybee12]

39. What planet are you living on?

Dean has been getting hammered by everyone lately--it only makes him look stronger.

Clark supporters should hope Tweety doesn't wet himself over the General's appareance tonight--too much flattery by the press is not necessarily a good thing!

[creativelcro]

51. Could be the other way around

"Dean a free pass while letting him bash other candidates"

Conversely

The Dems could be screwing themselves by bashing Dean and giving a free pass to other candidates.

The candidates can defend themselves damnit, they don't need Pelosi to come to the rescue... -CV

[Deja Q]

44. Dean's closer to puke-lite than being a true liberal worthy of the name

At least in terms of supporting corporate interests.

I'll vote for him, assuming I'm still alive in November 2004.

[Le Taz Hot]

46. Oy vey!

Dude (or dudette), you're not making a REAL good case for unity here by name-calling other Dems while pleading others not to do the same to Dean.

Could you do the rest of us Dean supporters a favor? Quit embarrassing the campaign and those of us who work for it? Thanks.

[southern democrat]

48. I'm a Clark supporter,but I think Dean is getting the best of the

best and the worst of the worst.Being the frontrunner puts him in the sights of everyone.Some media who are objcetive tell it close to the way it is.The media that lean toward Dean sing the praises.The media anti-Dean are flat out ugly.The candidates who are playing catch up are not quite ugly yet but they could be a little prettier.The Liberman"a Bush recession would be followed by a Dean depression"got real close to ugly.This crap serves no good to the party.But polotics are competive and this is to be expected.It still dosen't make it right or excuseable.I'll support the Dem.that gets the nomination.But Clark and Dean,I hope they don't devour one another,because they both are bringing the debate to a new level.They both are also bringing many new people to the process of selecting a nominee.I may be wrong,but it is very realistic that it could be a Dean vs.Clark race.If thats how it turns out.We can not afford to lose these new supporters of democrats.A united party will be hard to defeat.At the end of the line all of these supporters weather they be for Clark,Dean,Kerry,Gephart,Sharpton,Grahm,Edwards,Bruan,Kuncinch,and Liberman. Most will want to feel good about the eventual nominee,so they can support them.