Well, the morning shows are over. How do you think it played?

[RichM]

My feeling is that the Bushies seem to have weathered it very well indeed -- minor damage, at worst. I saw ABC & NBC, flicking back & forth between the two. While it seems that Russert & Steffie put considerably more pressure on Rummy than usual, he was rather masterful, & successfully defused the issue.

I'd say that while the issue is not completely "dead" or "closed," today's round of talk-shows must be seen as distinctly disappointing. As I watched, there was a point where Rummy went off for a few moments praising British intelligence. He said admiringly, that "Over the years, the intelligence services of the UK have been really among the world's very finest," or something to that effect. This digression gave him the opportunity to smile & be "charming," & also to take control of the dialog. Seeing him wax eloquent over British intell services, I was very aware that there is really no way, in that format, to defeat a powerful person like him who is a master of that format. He will ALWAYS be able to seize the initiative, sooner or later, even if he occasionally falters or gets testy.

To me, it looks like the Niger Uranium Lie is not quite dead, but it's more dead than it was 12 hours ago. It wouldn't surprise me if it expires in a few more days.

How did you all see it?

[Q]

1. Allow me to put it this way:

- Next Sunday they'll have a new topic to bandy around. Sad to say...but this story seemingly has a very short fuse.

[hlthe2b]

2. I don't think they had seen the WP article this morning....

which refutes their attempt to blame Tenet-- states clearly that CIA had forced the removal of similar statement from earlier speech...

That all needs to come out and force new round of questions...

On edit, both Condi and Rummy were put on the defensive, though. That is a nice change.

[TheBigGuy]

7. on the McLaughlin Group

.....the issue seemed to focus around who put the words in the SOTU.

Which is a great out. If this story does have legs they will ID some staffer or political appointee who added the offending text and they will be forced out or asked to resign.

Then it becomes just an internal snafu issue.

[DagmarK]

14. Bob Schieffer on Face the Nation saw the WP story!

He refuted some bullcorn from Condi with it.....and asked her about it.....and she waved it off. And he let her get away with it.

They ALL know all the stories in all the papers.........whether they choose to use it effectively.....well, they are whores.

[SayitAintSo]

3. They Ain't Over ... Levin is Rocking on CNN right now...

He has made the most substative comments thus far...

[TheBigGuy]

4. Iv'e said elsewhere...

...on this board that i think this is one of those "summer news" storys that gets a brief run during a slow news season. Im thinking that yesterday and today where the high-points of the story and the approach from Rumsfeld was pretty aggressive and also pretty much in denial or "I dont know" mode.

So I think the story will do a fade.

Maybe not yet. I'd wait one or two weeks to see if its still around, or if it leads to larger storys on credibilty or other justifications for the war, or to some investigative reporting on how WMD intel was developed or used in admin....and by storys I mean storys in the mainstream media like the WP and NYT and CNN and the "big three" broadcast networks.

[spinbaby]

35. I don't think it will fade

It's reached critical mass. The reason I say so is that, on the extremely pro-Bush* local talk shows I listen to sometimes, they're beginning to waver. They're not anti Bush* yet but they're saying things like, "I still think he's the best president for now but if he doesn't get Iraq and the economy turned around, I'm not voting for him," or "If it turns out it really was a lie, he's lost my support." The rabid freeper types are beginning to doubt the party line.

[rasputin1952]

61. I see this as well...

and also talk to the locals, (I'm in NE, land of the RR/RW), and these people are angry. If you get the base angry, you have serious problems, and this is getting a great deal of play around here.

While many Nebraskans were willing to pillory Clinton, they are seriously talking about horsewhipping bush. None of these people enjoy being lied to about serious matters, especially when so many have, or know, people in the service. This is no joke to them. While i hope this never happens, the first casket that comes back to this state, with a flag draped over it, will spell the end of bush support in NE. The people here are feeling a great deal of remorse over the loss of life throughout the couontry.

One of the questions I ask is, "The admin says that Americans will accept the sacrifice of it's youth for this military action. What do you think"?

Everyone says the price is too high, especially if they are one of the parents that may receive news about one of their children being killed over there. This is not like WWII, this is a pre-emptive strike, for oil and power; and the people know it. Critical mass is at hand, the admin is going down.

[chesley]

5. how it played?

I received a lot of flak the last time I commented on this subject, but nothing that I have seen has led me to change my mind. this issue is not going to play with the American people. The progressives must find a "smoking gun" on Bush, rather than Bush find one on Saddam. Saying, "Bush lied; people died" just isn't going to change any minds. Progressives need hard evidence, like a semen-stained dress. Otherwise, statements made by the administration are subject to interpretation, even "spin".

If Democrats want to win, they should concentrate on the economy.

[trof]

6. Watergate was a slow starter

and then built and built.
"A third rate burglary."
One can hope.

[chesley]

9. so it was

Still, there has to be proof, or it can be spun, and will not resonate with the public. Of course, this is just my opinion. we'll just have to see.

By the way, nice to see another Alabama boy. Being from Foley, you are probaably an Auburn fan, but "Roll Tide", anyway

[Frances]

57. War Eagle

from California! And hi Trof. I think you are the DUer with relatives in Jackson, AL, which is near Grove Hill where I grew up.

Since so many Alabamians go into the military, I wonder how the Niger comment is playing there.

[Cocoa]

37. the smoking gun is the SOTU

it's on tape. The guy who said that lie was George Bush, it's not disputable that it was him. And he enunciated pretty well, there's no dispute about what he said.

[jpak]

59. There is more video than the SOTU address

FAUX and other cable news outlets aired a clip of Chimpy claiming that "the IAEA (he stumbled all over the acronym!) sez I-raq is six months away from a nukuler bomb!"

The IAEA never issued any such statement.

It was a lie.

FAUX et al. also aired a clip of Chimpy claiming that "I-raq has unmanned aircraft that can targit 'Merica!"

I-raq never possessed any aircraft -manned, unmanned, commericial or military - that could "targit 'Merica".

It was a lie.

The Dept. of Energy examined the Dreaded Aluminum Tubes intercepted by US intelligence. The unanimous conclusion was that these tubes could not in any way be used in uranium gas centrifuges. The results of this investigation were know far in advance of the SOTU address.

It was a lie.

There is a lot more to this scandal than the "only 16 words" spin the Bushies are bleating about on the talk shows today!!!!!

[Classical_Liberal]

70. Wrong the economy alone didn't work last time

it won't work this time. Bush should be challanged on national security. Showing how he is endangering the security of the country with bad judgement and lies is the best way. He has gone down 20% in polls in two weeks.

[glarius]

8. From what I've seen they're saying NOW there is no problem with Bush's

lie in the SOTUS because the British are still claiming that it's true...They are ignoring Ambassador Wilson's warning altogether...Looks like they are blaming it on the British!

[Fovea]

12. that would be a large mistake

First it will deep six Tony Blair.
Second, Wilson is not a potted plant.

[glarius]

13. This may be their BIG mistake....Wilson looks like a fighter to me!

[SayitAintSo]

10. Heard someone say that it depends on how the REPUGs respond

to this story to determine if this story really has legs. Sad to say, that's probably true. They surely all got their talking points and stand ready to walk in lock step. I did hear Hagel and McCain reserve judgement (didn't spew the RW talking points) last week ... let's see where they go.

[jbou]

11. ABC did a much better job

George S was pressing Rummy pretty hard, he had Rummy sweating, and doubletalking, if anyone thought Rummy came off as honest is a fool. George S pressed the number of troops in Iraq question, and Rummy snapped "neither I nor Wolfowitz said 60,000, George said, " Wolfowitz did", rummy said, "well I didn't". George could have been better prepared expecting Rummy's denial, and he should have had more clips from Rummy's speeches, and such.

Russert was his usual mediawhore self, never asking the followup questions he's supposed to. Russert always leaves me hollering at the tv, ask him the next obvious question, dumbass!

Graham got treated better then Dean by Russert, and was able to get off a few good zings at the Bush admin, of course Russert didn't pursue the angle, and he changed the subject.

Clark didn't get enough time, I'd love to see Clark get an hour with George S. Clark would make a great NSA for president Dean, or sec of defense.

overall, Russert is still a whore, George S earned some points with me this week, and Fareak Z is still one of the smartest pundits out there.

[moondust]

73. Zacaria made a good observation.

Conservatives are always "vastly exaggerating the threat" of potential adversaries. They've done it with the Soviets, the Chinese, Saddam, etc. (He didn't mention the McCarthy era but didn't need to.)

He's right. The exaggerations shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. They're chronic liars about such things. It serves their interests.

[EarlG]

15. I saw Rumsfeld on ABC

Personally I thought he looked horrible. He was squirming, and got pretty upset by the end of the interview.

Was he under oath at the hearings last week by the way? Because if so, he got caught in a pretty big lie saying he'd only known about the false uranium information for a few days when in fact he'd known about it for four months. A few days... four months... that's not "misspeaking."

As to the overall question of whether this story has legs, I thought it was going to die on Friday night when Tenet fell on his toothpick, so I was surprised to see the story getting bigger, if anything, over the weekend. It depends whether we reach the tipping point where the story stops focusing on the uranium issue and starts focusing on the administration's defensiveness, and the whole "honor and integrity" thing. It may be shifting in that direction, and I think that the administration's rather pathetic attempts to suggest that we should all move on and the case is closed are only going to fuel that fire.

They already got away with that strategy a bunch of times - after the 2000 election, after September 11, Enron, the closed-door energy policy meetings... But now that troops on the ground in Iraq are being killed daily, I think that people are becoming far less willing to give them another chance to weasel out of this.

The key to the whole thing, IMO, is that up to this point the American people, persuaded in part by the media, have been willing to give Bush the benefit of the doubt on pretty much everything he's done. But I think that this incident has changed that, and I think the story has the potential to become bigger than the SOTU lie in that respect. If the story turns from uranium to the Bush administration's (un)trustworthiness, we're onto a good thing.

[stlsaxman]

34. Did anyone but me notice an editing "glitch" on This Week?

Either I was having an extreme halucination or I saw the Rumsfeld interview conclude twice. But with different content before the last, say- 5 seconds of each conclusion.

A Glitch in The Matrix, perhaps?

on edit: the airing here was 10am Central .

[rppper]

50. kissinger looked VERY uncomfortable as well.....

....when he was asked by wolf blitzer if the white house wmd statements should be investigated by a special councel. kissinger mumbled something about the white house putting it's own people in and auditing the matter internally. he looked even worse when blitzer started comparing it to watergate.....

[Sophree]

56. Exactly

"The key to the whole thing, IMO, is that up to this point the American people, persuaded in part by the media, have been willing to give Bush the benefit of the doubt on pretty much everything he's done. But I think that this incident has changed that, and I think the story has the potential to become bigger than the SOTU lie in that respect. If the story turns from uranium to the Bush administration's (un)trustworthiness, we're onto a good thing."

MAJOR change in the public's perception of * as a trustworthy man. This is the break we have needed and now we have to keep their feet to the fire.

Americans do not like being deceived.

[EarlG]

64. Indeed

Let's face it - while we who are following these stories are hooked by the details of who said what and who forced who to put what in which speech, the public in general doesn't care. Until a story really breaks out, the public aren't particularly interested in details.

What IS important is that suddenly the nightly news and Sunday talk shows are dominated by headlines which all ask the same basic question: has the Bush administration been telling lies? And the more this is repeated on TV, the more the public starts to think, HAS the Bush administration been telling lies?

And once the media latches on to the fact that people are interested in whether the Bush administration has been telling lies, and that if they keep reporting it their ratings will go up, you can bet that they'll start trying to beat each other to the punch on who can report the next Bush lie first.

That's the tipping point, when the story itself becomes the story. I don't think we're there yet - and we may not get there - but this is the closest we've come since Bush has been in power.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

16. The administration did what they needed to do

They spent the morning equivocating on the matter this Sunday. Good God, have you heard more "ifs," "ands," and "buts"? The best line today was from Tony Snow. He was giving Condi softballs repeatedly, even setting up her cookie-cutter, pre-spun answers, and even he was amazed at the lack of concrete, coherent answers. His final line on the matter: "O.K., I'll let you off the hook." She just sat there with that stepford-wife, "I'm-giving-Satan-a-handjob-as-we-speak" smile.

I don't think the press will let this go. Today was step one for the administration, and they succeeded. They needed the muddle the issue. They needed competing narratives. Make the citizens' eyes glaze over when they here Niger and nukes. If the press reports the muddle instead of the clearly defined issues, then the story will go away. Too complicated. Rummy and Condi were not out there to answer questions. They were there to create more. And they were there to make sure of one point: everyone must look at our words with precision. Every word was FACTUALLY accurate, they tell us. And then they'll confuse the matter even more if the media dig into those words.


I can't wait for the moment when one of them actually says, "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is." Please, please, please.

My apologies in advance: This post was cut-and-pasted from another related post. It's more in line with this thread. I hope I have not violated any forum rules. If I have, just delete it or tell me never to do it again. Again, sorry.

[RichM]

21. You raise a very good point on "Make the citizens' eyes glaze over ..."

This is certainly a very effective media-management technique. The object is to APPEAR to be "answering questions," while ACTUALLY aiming to create the feeling that the whole thing just isn't worth listening to.

It's as though the smokescreen itself is more important than the substance of the matter at hand.

[WEagle]

22. so lets let them know

we don't buy it.

[diamond14]

25. Hi grendelsuncle! Welcome to DU....don't be sorry, no need to

apologize...although you seem to take the Democratic stand: I'm sorry, I hope I did it right..haha...we love you here...just post away, and you'll know when you violate the rules because the "administrator" note will POP UP....


Welcome, please enjoy your stay here...POST away and join the conversation....

:hi: :hi: :hi:

:toast: :toast: :toast:

:nuke:

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WEagle]

20. and today's shows were obviously

a generous gift from the networks. If they could only score a 5 having been given this free piece of cake, they aren't really dong that well.

[Gloria]

66. Last night, when I saw Franken on CNN saying that how this goes depends

on the Sunday talk shows ( I swear that's a direct quote) I was disgusted.

I think it depends on how the Dems and some Congressional investigating proceeds, not on "Sunday talk shows." If the shows are going to enable these people to try to fool the American people, then Levin should be out there as much as possible and talk about investigating should continue....

[G_j]

71. yep

the talk show spin was completely predictable. No suprise here.

[Kahuna]

18. Condi continued to lie and make statements that will

come back to bite the misadministration. That's how the game is played. You don't need to be adversarial. You just need to get them on record. Reminds me of the saying, 'you get more flies with honey...'

[JustJoe]

19. the BEEG picture

This Niger lie will come & go & come back again
along with all the other lies. It's like an amateur]
show for lies--every lie will get its chance in the
spotlight. But the catastrophe of the war the lie
was spun to support is still there & getting worse
& there is no way out. If you want Bush to be so
caught out he's impeached, I dont think its ever
going to happen, because the country had its full
of impeachment already recently. If you want a very
weakened, exposed Bush, youve got it & it will only
get worse. In the meantime, all the other lies will
dribble out & occupy Bush just like Watergate occupied
Nixon for two years, and the chaos of postwar Iraq
will be in the background the whole time.
Now the dems have to get that
STRONG candidate to contrast with the weakened Bush.
Mine's Dean. I saw Clark today for the first time at
length & he looks weak to me, soft, nice, Gen or not.

[Star]

40. I think this is the one thing that will keep this issue alive

"the catastrophe of the war the lie
was spun to support is still there & getting worse
& there is no way out."

This is the crux of the matter. They can spin, obfuscate, backtrack, lie, and distort anything that they want, but the war is still going on, American soldiers are still dying, its still costing us billions every month, and there's no way out.

Even if the story fades, it will be revived over and over again as the costs, both human and economic, continue to rise, and each time it revives, it will be stronger, because its costing us so dearly and the question "Was it worth it?" will become more and more prominent.

Every other deception this maladministration fostered on us was over by the time there was any outrage, except when the maladmin kept it alive for their own purposes (i.e., 9/11). This one is different.

[JustJoe]

43. Another American died

in Iraq today as Condi spun
& Rummmy spoke of the "burn rate"
(meaning FOUR BILLION DOLLARS A MONTH
for the war in Iraq). They have made
their box & we are all trapped in it.
They dont even know how to ask for help.
It's not going away. People should calm
down, work hard, and not overreact to the
bumps on the road to getting these puffed-up
bums out of there in 2004.

[Star]

52. 'Major Combat' in Iraq May Be Over, But the Dying Continues.

RICHMOND, Va. - The war is over. Or so people have told him, yelling out car windows - Don't you read the paper? - as they drive past his sign. ..snip..

But for Syverson, every day is still clouded with worry. Every morning's paper brings a renewed sense of dread. The end of "major combat" didn't mean an end to soldiers dying: At least 77 U.S. troops have lost their lives since May 1. Every report of an Iraqi attack is another reminder of the dangers facing his sons - Bryce, 25, and Branden, 31.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0711-04.htm

And things like this is what will also help keep this issue alive.

[JustJoe]

55. Thanx, Star

for the link.

"The world's going on," says Judy Syverson,
"but I'm not sure my sons are safe."

[Tigermoose]

74. Bingo.

The uranium story is huge only because we are in an Iraqi quagmire of terror...The Media and the American people will want a scapegoat to crucify for our deteriorating position in Iraq, and Bush's administration is going to be crucified as that scapegoat (which they deserve). Blood for blood. This is an ancient recurring story that runs throughout history. Someone or something must be blamed for psycological relief for the people. This is the only way out of Iraq right now. Crucify Bush to the world, and then beg for a coalition of Arab states to act as peacekeepers (with the U.S. acting as a big gun to knock down any major powerplays or overreaching if necessary) in Iraq until some semblance of stability is restored, and pull our troops out. We can scream to the world, "We were deceived by Bush!" and hopefully get back into the world community's graces. He's a witch. Burn him.

[theriverburns]

23. Steph and Russert

Should be tied to fire ant hills nude and covered in honey and forced to repeat until death, "Clinton's Cock" "Clinton's Cock" "Clinton's Cock" "Clinton's Cock" "Clinton's Cock"

[barbaraann]

24. It's over for the Bush administration. They have lost the trust

of the media and the American people and they will never regain it. Just as with Nixon, the lying will bring them down when far worse evil deeds didn't.

As others have said, they were on the defensive and you only have to go on the defensive if trust has been destroyed.

Let's face it, Bush's popularity has been based on nothing but blind, irrational trust even in the face of a disatrous record of failure on every single responsibility of the office of President. People will start waking up to the reality of what Bush has done and is doing and how many of our soldiers are dying and it is ALL bad.

[RichM]

27. I agree they WERE on the defensive, but fear they only needed to play

adequate defense to "win" in this situation. What I saw on TV was not an overwhelmingly impressive "tour de force" by Rummy. But it was skillful defense, and that's all he had to do, to halt the building momentum of the "Niger Lie" issue. He wasn't trying to conquer, today; he was only trying to stop the bleeding, & I think he did that.

It's true, though, that continued soldiers' dying is going to continue to be a problem for the Busheviks.

[barbaraann]

38. I don't think Rummy stopped the momentum.

The media gets into frenzies and reporters, etc. can't tear themselves away from a story. Remember the Chandra Levy coverage, for example? I cannot believe how many times the media even reported that there was nothing to report--they just couldn't leave it alone.

Perhaps it's just laziness or lack of imagination rather than a commitment to finding the truth, but whatever it is they won't let it go. Then they might have to cover starving people or bad schools or people losing health care and they don't won't to face those stories.

[WEagle]

42. though I don't believe

it's in Rumfelds power to "halt the building momentum of the "Niger Lie" issue." It's bigger than him and there are too many loose ends.

[Terwilliger]

26. I don't think so Rich

it's time now...IF (and you know what I think the chances are) the Dems stand up and call them on it now. Bush is looking for a scapegoat and he can't really find one. Notice his very slurred and incorrect speech in Africa? Even MORE than normal?

O T O H

All the major nets are trying to spin it away. I just think that people are tired of it, especially with soldiers and civilians still dying now.

Now, other news...

Hurricane Thunderstorm hits Monica's Laci Patterson shark-fest, while the Mid-east boils with SARS :eyes:

[Terwilliger]

32. CNN BREZINSKI DESTROYING BUSH!!!!!

[Terwilliger]

33. BREZINSKI: DISCLOSE WHY IT WENT WRONG...CIA or BUSH

[Terwilliger]

36. WOLF JUST SAID "Clearly this issue is not going away" !!!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[berry]

48. What Zbig said today on CNN is worth

THOUSANDS of :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

When the transcript comes out, we need to send it EVERYWHERE! Here's the link for the transcripts for Late Edition (and the archive goes WAY back for anyone willing to harvest incriminating statements...). I don't know when it will be posted, maybe tonight, for sure by tomorrow a.m.

Oops--forgot to post the link:
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/le.html

[Terwilliger]

54. Blitzer poll still 91%!!!

6444 votes

[Terwilliger]

67. 92!

[wndycty]

28. We have 24 hour cable news networks who need to get more mileage out of it

so its nowhere near over

[susu369]

65. Good point re: cable news networks

It will be interesting to find out how many people were watching the programs this morning. I, for one, have not watched cable news for at least six months but I turned the tv on early and stayed until they all ended. Hope I was part of a trend.....

[Armstead]

29. 50/50

I dodn;t even listen really to the adminsitration people. They just convolute it in their own particular ways. Whether peope believe Rimmy or Cindi is whether already think they are refreshing straight talkers or lying weasels.

The Democrats I saw were about 65 percent. Levin was extremely frustratoing on CNN. He was great at raising the bigger issues. But in response to a question from Wolfie about a poll showing that 38 percent of people thought Bush misled Levin pulled a massive cop-out. "I don't believe it's even a question about Bush," he said,. and then deflected it to lower-level people. Why the hell couldn;t have he said "We don;t know" or something, instead of turning the focus from Bush.

Graham did pretty good, but Timmy Russert quickly turned it to mote important matters, like his diary.


hard to say whether it has legs. I think the only way it will is of more Democrats become more direct that this is not abouit one little line in one speech, but gets to the whole credibility of the Bush Regime.

[RichM]

31. Gosh, I'm glad I didn't hear Levin say that -

I might have thrown something thru the TV screen. So messy, picking up those little shards of glass, doncha know! ;-)

I agree the ball is very much in the Democrats' court, now. The fate of this issue depends greatly on what they do, or don't do.

[WEagle]

47. I want to hit the streets again

I want to go to DC and demand answers. What happened to the momentum of our recent demonstrations? :shrug:

[FubarFly]

30. How to destroy the shrub in three easy steps:

Step 1: Create a enough of a doubt that the public will demand to know more. (So far so good.)

Step 2: Launch an investigation. (If step 1 is successful, even vile brownnosers like Pat Roberts won't be able to prevent it.)

Step 3: PUT SHRUB UNDER OATH.

Would anyone care to guess what would happen next?

[indigo32]

51. Shrub under oath and not reading from a Telepromter?

he'd have a frikkin nervous breakdown and go postal or something.

[Eddie Current]

72. Step 3: PUT SHRUB UNDER OATH.

you know that they will do EVRYTHING they can to avoid this. the whole George "Big Unit" Bush, annointed by God to lead the nation BS will all be blown out of water. because he will melt down. and I would pay good money to see it...

[judgegina]

39. The question

needs to be, "WHO insisted that this statement be included in the SOTU?"
Condi wouldn't answer this question on Face the Nation, yet she knows the answer. Perhaps Tenet should have taken the statement out, but WHO insisted that it be put in??? I smell trouble for the vice-president.

[Cocoa]

41. New lies were exposed

One was that Rummy lied at the Senate regarding when he knew about the forgery. He said "in recent days", but admitted today that it was four months ago.

46. A web of lies

the Al Quaeda connection is another big lie that Rice reinforced and when the ball starts rolling it will become clear that all the supposed reasons for the war were false.

From WMD (there were none)

to Al qaeda connection (there wasn't one)

to international law and the UN resolutions (how can we claim this if we were in fact the ones breaking international law with a preemptive strike and the UN refused to back us?)

Then the humanitarian argument which is dissolving day by day as we still haven't caught sadaam and it is becoming clear that the Iraqis are in many ways not better off and don't want us there.

In the end the real question is "Why did we go to war?" That's what people are going to start asking. After it's all said and done I hope this doesn't get isolated to the Bush Administration this treasonous war is the responsibility of the CIA, the Media, and the powers that be in general and as many of them should get screwed as possible. As for Bush I hope our next president gets the War Crimes Court ok'd by the senate so we can start to see these criminals in prison. I won't be content with Bush and his cronies being kicked out of government so that they can go into private industry and continue to fuck us over while living high on the hog.

[Cocoa]

53. democracy in Iraq

the U.S. arranged the interim council to give its favored faction the majority, and has forcibly stopped local elections.

about the humanitarian aspect, they just reopened the most notorious Hussein prison, and the Red Cross has protested the treatment of the thousands of Iraqi POW's.

[paulk]

44. Rummy can spin all he likes

but he and the rest of the Bush junta are not going to be able to spin the steady stream of dead and wounded Americans coming home from Iraq.

Even if the Niger issue gets ignored by the press, Bush's credibility has been damaged. The fact remains - he put something proveably false in the SOTU. He can blame whomever he likes, but the words came out of his mouth. Already 50% of the country believes that he got us into a war under false pretenses - As WMD's continue to remain unfound and our sons and daughters continue to come home in boxes, the American people will become icreasingly reluctant to accept "spin" as a rationale for why we're in Iraq.

[Snellius]

45. Everything depends on how things go in Iraq

What's odd about this scandal is that everyone pretty much knew that the Bushbots were lying right from the start. The specter of mushroom clouds over Manhattan and all the rest of the bellicose propaganda crap. But at the time, caught up in the whack Iraq, kick some Islam butt, fervor nobody seemed to care. Invading Iraq without international support was a huge mistake and everyone knew it. Now they're all looking for someone to take the blame for their own guilty conscience. The psychology behind this story has a life and force of its own.

Not that Bush, finally seriously snared in his endless web of bullshit, doesn't deserve to get caught, but the real blame lies with the gullibility and blood lust of the American people and the war cries howled by the likes of Wolf and FOX and the rest of the cable news hounds.

[Junkdrawer]

49. Correct. That's why Nixon got it...

It wasn't because of a politically motivated break-in. And it wasn't for lying about the break-in. It was because he was widening the war into Cambodia and many, many people had their knives drawn and were look for a way to take him down. Then, he (and I'll paraphrase Tricky Dick) "gave them a sword and they twisted it".

Same here. If enough of the "power-that-be" are afraid that this crew will widen the Iraq war, they'll try to take them down. If Iraq becomes a quagmire, they'll blame Bush and install Lieberman.

[jpgray]

58. Overall much better than previously

There is a noticeable difference. Is it everything I wished for? Nope. Politics isn't a magic genie that gives me wishses, it's a methodical and careful process. No one is more careful than a politician. However, the mo is behind this, and it will inexorably be borne to the proper conclusion, whether in 2004 or before, in my opinion. When Lieberman and Gephardt take a stand against Bush on this, I start to believe. Same goes when Rumsfeld and Condi have less than stellar performances on pro-administration networks.

:)

[DisgustedTX]

60. Russert was tough on Rummy on MTP. He looked very evasive

"oh, I meant!"
"oh, I really said"
"oh, taken out of context"

The guy didn't answer ANY question with a straight answer.

Of course, that was followed by his usual "tough" questioning of a Democratic Presidential candidate - Graham. "This diary you keep - is makes you appear - almost paranoid". The usual off-topic, inconsequential BS we've become accustomed to.

[poskonig]

62. The administration stopped some of the bleeding

Some of the interviews weren't pretty, but the administration plugged a few leaks in their ship. The damage about the uranium from Niger was contained as a 'problem' and will not explode into a crisis, especially if Tenet voluntarily resigns. If Tenet does not resign, and Democrats demand Bush start loppin' heads, they could have more problems ahead.

The Bushies still have the imaginary WMD issue, which damages American credibility abroad more than anything. In addition, the deaths of American soldiers is a monkey they need off their back, though that is independent of how Democrats behave.

The interviews themselves went just okay -- on a scale of 0-10, the execution for the Republicans, to me anyway, falls within the 4-5 range. Not the best I've seen them.

[Terwilliger]

68. its a gusher

you folks better do something

[imax2268]

63. yea man...spin spin spin...

what gets me though is that if he didn't know it was in there till it was said to the nation...then he doesn't read the SOTU address...he just gets up and reads it...

to me that shows ignorance...not intelligence...

maybe I'm wrong...but somehow it was in there...somehow it got in there...and someone put it in there...I'm smelling something foul from the WH...

BULLSHIT...!

[gulliver]

69. It got worse for them today.

Rumsfeld and Rice were clearly working with exactly the same playbook. They made a game effort, but they have not "solved the whodunnit" for the media. Rumsfeld and Rice only increased the media's curiousity.

Rice, pointedly and unmistakably, would not answer on FTN who put the line in the speech. Rumsfeld had to retract his stated and affirmed testimony that he only heard about the problem in "recent days."

The message that Bush said something false or deceptive and dubious in the State of the Union has cleared the runway. There is now open media scrutiny of Bush's credibility. He can't sustain his image under scrutiny, because his image is all based on secrecy and half-truth. That's the end of the "nice salesman," I think.