August 20, 2003..."We can not afford to fail" Howard Dean

[madfloridian]

Agree or disagree, but be honest!

This is a man speaking from conscience. If you do not agree, fine. But two progressive groups, one of which I respected, have called him out on this wrongly, saying he is just like the others, an imperialist. He is speaking from conscience. Agree or disagree, but don't use it as an excuse to attack the party chair when he is just getting started rebuilding.

http://www.blogforamerica.com/archives/001116.html

Wednesday, August 20, 2003
"We Cannot Afford to Fail"
BURLINGTON--Governor Howard Dean issued this statement on Iraq:

"Since last April, I have been calling on President Bush to internationalize the reconstruction effort in Iraq. I repeat that call today.

"Expert after expert has returned from Iraq stating that the window of opportunity is closing faster than anyone expected and that our chance to successfully stabilize and rebuild the country is quickly passing. Despite this, the Bush Administration refuses to seek a UN mandate so that our historic allies and friends can join us in this effort and speed up the reconstruction process.

"I call on the Bush Administration to take the following steps to encourage our proven allies and friends, including France, Germany, India, and Turkey to join us in Iraq and to accelerate the reconstruction process. We must:

* Work with the UN to build the largest coalition possible to help us succeed in Iraq;
* Make clear our intention to share decision-making on security and reconstruction issues in Iraq with those countries and international institutions that join the international coalition;

* Prioritize restoring law and order and the resumption of electricity, water, and sanitation services -- they are fundamental to success in all other areas;

* Focus on developing Iraqi capacity to undertake key functions as soon as possible;

* Decentralize the operations of the Coalition Authority and make money more forthcoming and flexible;

* Employ the sizable number of available Iraqis with short term public works projects and get state-run enterprises up and running, even if they must be downsized and privatized later;

* Push for UN oversight of the successor to the Oil for Food program;

* Award reconstruction contracts to the best US or foreign bidder in a transparent and open process.

"Yesterday's bombing of the UN headquarters in Iraq appears to have been an effort to dissuade other members of the international community from assisting us. It is vital to our chances of success that the Bush Administration redouble its efforts to internationalize the military and civilian presence and to speed up the stabilization and rebuilding process. We cannot afford to fail."

[madfloridian]

1. And here are the people who voted for it.. Contact them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3532641

[hedda_foil]

4. Thank you for posting this very important reminder.

To Will, Kevin and all,

Dean fought like hell against getting into the damn war. Once we were there, he fought like hell from day one for exactly what he advocated in the article above.

He knew damn well, as we all did, that team smirk would throw Iraq, and potentially the entire Middle East (and in the not too terribly distant future the world) into turmoil and disaster. The point he's now making is the horrendous fact that abruptly pulling out of the disaster we've caused will create a power vacuum that, of itself, is likely to pull the entire region and then the world into even greater horror.

It's a nightmare that should never have happened and we have to get out of it as fast as humanly possible, but without international assistance of every type imaginable, walking away will make this nightmare even worse.

We all knew very well that Dean never claimed to be a pacifist and never presented himself as one (though some insisted he had). He stood foursquare against this war on both principle because it was grounded in lies and bound to cause great harm to all involved, not least of all, to us.

[madfloridian]

5. Thank you, Hedda.

People who know better, you are right.

Thanks. I don't know how I feel. One day I think we should just leave. The next day I think of all the downsides of leaving, and I waver again.

We just should never have been there.

[Eloriel]

11. Well put, Hedda

as always. :D

:hi:

:kick:

[Anthropologist]

18. What hedda said.

N/T

[madfloridian]

2. To the two who openly said he changed his mind.

This is for you to share with your groups, groups which I respect. I just expect you to respect that a lot of us want to rebuild the party and are not ready for 3rd party.

[madfloridian]

3. If it is 3rd party time, then don't try to destroy the Democratic party.

This is dropping very very fast because I am right. If you disagree, fine, but don't lie about his stances.

[madfloridian]

6. Honesty is best.

Lies are not good.

[madfloridian]

7. Dean's statement was a responsible one.

He has always said the same thing. I may not agree, but it is wrong to use this against him.

If you did not know he said it, then you were not paying attention. The others wanted the war, he said we should not just leave. Hold the ones responsible who voted for it.

Hold up the names of the Democrats who voted for it during the rally instead of blaming a man who was against it.

[Eloriel]

8. Isn't this pretty much what Kerry's position during the campaign was?

The thing that annoys me about the criticism of Dean in that ill-fated "poll" that was put up earlier is that Dennis Kucinich was the one person that I know of who was always saying that we should just get the hell out of Iraq. Just pack up and walk away. Quit. Leave. The devil take the hindmost.

That's a wonderful, even exhilerating idea. But impractical as all get out and IMO irresponsible as well. If there is some value in it, I know of NO ONE who has any real credibility who believes that's a RESPONSIBLE approach to the problem that Iraq is right now mor has been since our invasion.

There's no doubt in my mind that George Bush's occupation and reconstruction are and indeed were always doomed, and that may indeed be part of the plan -- or it may be their colossal incompetence and arrogance. BUT picking up and leaving will accomplish NOTHING positive under the circumstances -- it will only cause Iraq to devolve into another Afghanistan.

I don't think anyone can refute that or present any credible argument to the contrary.

The internationalization of the occupation/reconstruction is the ONLY viable plan I've ever seen or heard from anyone -- and as I said, it's also what I think Kerry called for as well, wasn't it?


So what bothers me is that for some reason, Dean's very clear position on Iraq has been misrepresented AS IF IT ONCE UPON A TIME RESEMBLED DENNIS KUCINICH's weird idea (and it NEVER did), and Dean is being criticized for having changed his mind, when he never has. That's seriously screwed up, folks. Seriously. And in the process, Kucinich's weird and probably irresponsible idea about just walking out and not looking back is being elevated as some sort of gold standard or something. Excuse me, but that's NONSENSE. His was always a thoroughly lovely sounding but totally harebrained, impractical idea.

MadFl -- what is the "other" organization misrepresenting Dean? PM if you must. I only know of the one we ended up tag-teaming on yesterday.

[madfloridian]

9. Check inbox.

While I may agree on many progressive values, I also don't want one person attacked unfairly. The ones who really wanted this war are not even getting scrutiny.

[Eloriel]

10. I hope you will keep hammering that point -- again and again

The ones who really wanted this war are not even getting scrutiny.

It's frankly something *I* want to be reminded of so *I* remember it.

[madfloridian]

12. The ones who really wanted this war are not even getting scrutiny.

Senate yes votes on IWR. Call them. They are the ones who gave Bush permission.

YEAs ---77
Allard (R-CO)
Allen (R-VA)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Bennett (R-UT)
Biden (D-DE)
Bond (R-MO)
Breaux (D-LA)
Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burns (R-MT)
Campbell (R-CO)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Carnahan (D-MO)
Carper (D-DE)
Cleland (D-GA)
Clinton (D-NY)
Cochran (R-MS)
Collins (R-ME)
Craig (R-ID)
Crapo (R-ID)
Daschle (D-SD)
DeWine (R-OH)
Dodd (D-CT)
Domenici (R-NM)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Edwards (D-NC)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Fitzgerald (R-IL)
Frist (R-TN)
Gramm (R-TX)
Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH)
Hagel (R-NE)
Harkin (D-IA)
Hatch (R-UT)
Helms (R-NC)
Hollings (D-SC)
Hutchinson (R-AR)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Lott (R-MS)
Lugar (R-IN)
McCain (R-AZ)
McConnell (R-KY)
Miller (D-GA)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Nickles (R-OK)
Reid (D-NV)
Roberts (R-KS)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Santorum (R-PA)
Schumer (D-NY)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL)
Smith (R-NH)
Smith (R-OR)
Snowe (R-ME)
Specter (R-PA)
Stevens (R-AK)
Thomas (R-WY)
Thompson (R-TN)
Thurmond (R-SC)
Torricelli (D-NJ)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Warner (R-VA)

NAYs ---23
Akaka (D-HI)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Chafee (R-RI)
Conrad (D-ND)
Corzine (D-NJ)
Dayton (D-MN)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Graham (D-FL)
Inouye (D-HI)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Reed (D-RI)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Wellstone (D-MN)
Wyden (D-OR)

[madfloridian]

13. House yes votes on the IWR.

Ackerman
Aderholt
Akin
Andrews
Armey
Bachus
Baker
Ballenger
Barcia
Barr
Bartlett
Barton
Bass
Bentsen
Bereuter
Berkley
Berman
Berry
Biggert
Bilirakis
Bishop
Blagojevich
Blunt
Boehlert
Boehner
Bonilla
Bono
Boozman
Borski
Boswell
Boucher
Boyd
Brady (TX)
Brown (SC)
Bryant
Burr
Burton
Buyer
Callahan
Calvert
Camp
Cannon
Cantor
Capito
Carson (OK)
Castle
Chabot
Chambliss
Clement
Coble
Collins
Combest
Cooksey
Cox
Cramer
Crane
Crenshaw
Crowley
Cubin
Culberson
Cunningham
Davis (FL)
Davis, Jo Ann
Davis, Tom
Deal
DeLay
DeMint
Deutsch
Diaz-Balart
Dicks
Dooley
Doolittle
Dreier
Dunn
Edwards
Ehlers
Ehrlich
Emerson
Engel
English
Etheridge
Everett
Ferguson
Flake
Fletcher
Foley
Forbes
Ford
Fossella
Frelinghuysen
Frost
Gallegly
Ganske
Gekas
Gephardt
Gibbons
Gilchrest
Gillmor
Gilman
Goode
Goodlatte
Gordon
Goss
Graham
Granger
Graves
Green (TX)
Green (WI)
Greenwood
Grucci
Gutknecht
Hall (TX)
Hansen
Harman
Hart
Hastert
Hastings (WA)
Hayes
Hayworth
Hefley
Herger
Hill
Hilleary
Hobson
Hoeffel
Hoekstra
Holden
Horn
Hoyer
Hulshof
Hunter
Hyde
Isakson
Israel
Issa
Istook
Jefferson
Jenkins
John
Johnson (CT)
Johnson (IL)
Johnson, Sam
Jones (NC)
Kanjorski
Keller
Kelly
Kennedy (MN)
Kennedy (RI)
Kerns
Kind (WI)
King (NY)
Kingston
Kirk
Knollenberg
Kolbe
LaHood
Lampson
Lantos
Latham
LaTourette
Lewis (CA)
Lewis (KY)
Linder
LoBiondo
Lowey
Lucas (KY)
Lucas (OK)
Luther
Lynch
Maloney (NY)
Manzullo
Markey
Mascara
Matheson
McCarthy (NY)
McCrery
McHugh
McInnis
McIntyre
McKeon
McNulty
Meehan
Mica
Miller, Dan
Miller, Gary
Miller, Jeff
Moore
Moran (KS)
Murtha
Myrick
Nethercutt
Ney
Northup
Norwood
Nussle
Osborne
Ose
Otter
Oxley
Pascrell
Pence
Peterson (MN)
Peterson (PA)
Petri
Phelps
Pickering
Pitts
Platts
Pombo
Pomeroy
Portman
Pryce (OH)
Putnam
Quinn
Radanovich
Ramstad
Regula
Rehberg
Reynolds
Riley
Roemer
Rogers (KY)
Rogers (MI)
Rohrabacher
Ros-Lehtinen
Ross
Rothman
Royce
Ryan (WI)
Ryun (KS)
Sandlin
Saxton
Schaffer
Schiff
Schrock
Sensenbrenner
Sessions
Shadegg
Shaw
Shays
Sherman
Sherwood
Shimkus
Shows
Shuster
Simmons
Simpson
Skeen
Skelton
Smith (MI)
Smith (NJ)
Smith (TX)
Smith (WA)
Souder
Spratt
Stearns
Stenholm
Sullivan
Sununu
Sweeney
Tancredo
Tanner
Tauscher
Tauzin
Taylor (MS)
Taylor (NC)
Terry
Thomas
Thornberry
Thune
Thurman
Tiahrt
Tiberi
Toomey
Turner
Upton
Vitter
Walden
Walsh
Wamp
Watkins (OK)
Watts (OK)
Waxman
Weiner
Weldon (FL)
Weldon (PA)
Weller
Wexler
Whitfield
Wicker
Wilson (NM)
Wilson (SC)
Wolf
Wynn
Young (AK)
Young (FL)

[JNelson6563]

14. Well said Eloriel!!

As I just posted at another forum, we have bombed the crap out of Iraq. We need to help them. We should make sure they declare the oil a public holding, stop all offensive military operations, get courts up and running and help them rebuild!

It is the very least we should do considering how we have leveled their country and slaughtered so many of them. No matter what, we can never atone for all those deaths but we should sure do our best to right all of the wrongs done in our name.

Those demanding we get out now are advocating for the ultimate screwing of the Iraqi people.

Julie

[eridani]

21. What Kucnich actually said was--

UN in, US out. To say that setting up some kind of withdrawal timetable is irresponsible depends on some kind of real world evidence demonstrating that the occupation is actually having a positive effect of some sort. I haven't seen anything of the sort.

And rebuilding doesn't have to be international, either, except for donating money. After 1991, the Iraqis had their electrical grid more or less in working order within a few months. They have a highly educated population with atrocious unemployment rates, and the notion that they need a big influx of American or European companies to fix their own country is bullshit. All they need is the money we owe them for trashing the place.

Reasonable people can disagree about the timetable, but we do have to leave. What we need from the DNC now is a loud and clear reaffirmation of Kerry's statement during the campaign that he would not back permanent military bases there. I'm sure Dean also probably has said something of the sort somewhere along the line, and I wish he'd say it now.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. We had to stay in Vietnam to prevent the great bloodbath.

The one that didn't happen after they threw us out. Now, Dean is calling for the same thing in the name of "stability". Stability achieved by killing more Iraqis.

Didn't work then, won't work now, but our "leaders" have to show that their "tough on terror".

[madfloridian]

16. Talk to the ones who voted for it. I listed them in several threads.

Whether I agree or not is not the issue. The issue is that this stance has been Howard Dean's stance for a long time. Why attack him now like the board has been doing.

Contact the ones who voted for the war, talk to them.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. How about talking to the ones who advocate the occupation?

So what if it's been Dean's stance for a long time. It's wrong and he's now head of the DNC. He's the one who's saying it.

[madfloridian]

19. They ALL say it. They ALL have always said it.

Why are folks here going on the attack against one of two men who opposed the war in the first place? Could you tell me that?

Why are they outraged by the ones who sent us there?

:shrug: :shrug:

But if it makes you happy, go ahead.

[Cha]

20. Thanks for putting this

up, madfloridian! This is a Plan for positive progress for staying in Iraq..not just "we can't leave yet"..

"* Prioritize restoring law and order and the resumption of electricity, water, and sanitation services -- they are fundamental to success in all other areas"

This should have been the first to have been done..but, of course, rummy's in charge so nothing so logical was implemented.