My trip to Dachau (April 24, 2005)

[Solly Mack]

For the past several months Europe has been celebrating the 60th Anniversary of the end of Word War II.

A guided tour of Dachau was arranged for military families to help kick off the anniversary week. The anniversary week comes to a close with the official commemoration of the 60th Anniversary of the Liberation of Dachau next week. Dachau was liberated on April 29th, 1945.

Some remaining survivors of the camp will be in attendance. During the last few weeks before liberation, a few women actually gave birth in the camp and those babies survived along with their mothers.

The women have since passed away but a few of those "miracle" babies will be there to remember their mothers and to honor all the victims of Dachau. I'm truly sorry that I will not be able to go back for the event.

A few words about our guide.

Our guide was wonderful and not just because of his knowledge of the camp or even his sensitive and respectful manner toward the subject.

You could tell it was something very dear to him.

He was wonderful because he spoke to us Americans directly - and this wasn't my imagination. He wasn't just speaking to us as military either, though I hope with all my heart they heard. He was speaking to Americans. He was speaking to us all.

Saying with all his heart, even as his voice sometimes faltered, that torture is never right. That torture is never justified. That Dachau and the rest of the Nazi camps serve to remind everyone that you can't just imprison people for no reason. You can't imprison people simply because you don't like the color of their skin, or their religion, or their politics. You can't let your prejudices blind you. You can't just murder people that are different from you.

He didn't attack Americans or America, please don't get that impression. He related quite clearly, though never directly, the evils of illegal war; with leaders gone mad, and the horrors that such wars perpetuate upon innocent people. How once you cross that first line, all the rest of the barriers come down and atrocities will occur and continue to occur.

You could tell he knew his facts cold about Dachau but that he had worked on how to relate the mistakes of the past to the mistakes of the present. More specifically, of how those past mistakes related to America directly with everything that has taken place under Bush and continue to take place.

His words told me he was speaking to us, but not just his words. In his voice could be heard concern about how his words were playing. He would look around at his audience, checking to see if a connection could be read and worried that someone would take offense.

All I could do was smile and nod in agreement with him during those times. He was using the past to teach the relation between what happened 60 years ago with the things taking place today, in our name, and under our governments direction.

He never said the Patriot Act - but you could hear it. He never said Abu Ghraib - but you could hear it. He never said INS detention center round-ups - but you could hear it. He never said indefinite lock up - but you could hear it. He never said Gitmo - but you could hear it. He never said racial profiling - but you could hear it. He never said America forgot - but you could hear it.

He never said the great liberator of Dachau had fallen

- but you could hear it.

edit:goof ups, of course :)

[bobbieinok]

1. thank you for this report........what was the reaction of other Americans

in your group????

Did I understand correctly that you were part of a tour for American military families???

[Solly Mack]

4. I was part of a special guided tour for military families, yes.

Our group asked a lot of questions. No one really asked about how anyone felt, as such a question just didn't seem apppropriate.

Yet you could tell that,for some, life would never be the same. That "hearing" about the camps was one thing but actually "seeing" the camps opened up a whole new way of thinking and looking at the world for them. From those people came the most questions and the best questions.


Unfortunately, some people will never "see" ,and we had several of those in our group as well.

We were divided up into smaller groups and I can't speak for what went on within the other tour groups.

edit: typo to the nth...

[leftchick]

6. the people who will never "see" are in denial

This irritates be more than the bogus 9/11/saddam connection. I hate when I hear RWers saying that faux news line about us being the Liberators in Iraq just like the US did for Europe in WWII. It infuriates me that they refuse to see the Hitler/bush** comparison is much more approriate.

Thank you for your report. At least some in the Military "get it".

[Solly Mack]

9. Yes, it's denial

I share your anger about the "liberator" comparison.

[CatWoman]

2. I visited Dachau some years ago

I swear you could still smell the stench. Maybe it was my imagination. A very humbling experience indeed.

[Solly Mack]

5. I got a whiff of something at the gas chamber/crematorium

Just as I entered and I told myself...Can't be. It's in your mind.

I stood in that "shower" and touched those walls, my palms pressed against the cold concrete. Maybe it was just my imagination too... but I did smell something.

[SmokingJacket]

13. Wasn't that long ago.

I believe it.

We have to keep the memory alive so we can keep it from happening again.

[DURHAM D]

21. I visited there in the late 60's. Believe it or not the guide

told us the showers were never used. They had built them but not used them. Same with the ovens. Guess they have been caught on that.

At that time, the camp was not very English friendly. Displays, guides etc were only in German. A German friend told me that it was designed only for Germans so they could understand what they had done but they did not want to wash their dirty laundry in front of the Brits, Americans and Russians.

[Solly Mack]

25. Times have changed...thankfully

The ovens were very much used...and he said that while the shower did not go into "mass" operations, they were used for what the Nazis called "test" runs...they tested them om humans....but problems and the late date prevented them from using them like the ones in the death camps.

Until near the end of war, the showers at Dachau were unused...then as the end neared, the Nazis geared up to eliminate the evidence and the chamber at Dachau was then tested.

The chamber at Dachau is small and was considered "not time efficient" by the Nazis for operations of the final solution...but he said there is no doubt it was built to murder people since the so-called shower heads were nothing but water sprinkler caps from watering jugs. He even demonstrated this on the remaining in tact shower head....in a room filled with time worn shower heads.

The Nazis worked victims to death at Dachau...or shot them or hanged them..or starved them or they died from disease and medical experiments.

[CatWoman]

43. SM, Have you watched, "Auschwitz, Inside the Nazi State"?

It's chilling.

Informative, but chilling.

Highly recommended.

http://www.pbs.org/auschwitz/

[Solly Mack]

57. I haven't seen that one. I will check it out. Thank you!

[CatWoman]

67. And I want to take this opportunity to say a hearty

FUCK YOU

to our friends across the way!!!!!

Also, you dumb mother fuckers, Iraq and Afghanistan are NOT FREE. So typically idiotic and delusional to compare those two countries to Europe. The circumstances are not even close.

[Solly Mack]

69. They'll never learn. They can't afford to learn. It would

force them to confront the lies they have embraced...

Thanks again!

[kskiska]

53. I was there in ’71 and we were told the same thing about the ovens

Built but not used. We didn't have a guide. We drove in and asked the locals for directions along the way, but didn't get many answers. It seemed that no one wanted to acknowledge the place was there. The photographic exhibit was powerful, as were the mock-ups of what the barracks looked like at three different stages. At first, they were fairly roomy with desk and chair, then they progressively got more and more crowded till there were nothing but wall-to-wall bunks.

[Solly Mack]

58. The guides still aren't available normally. Most people had

the hand-helds that walked them through the camp. A recorded voice in place of a guide...in all languages.

The progression of how bad the bunk area became was chilling and telling.

[ngGale]

55. I've heard others say they could still smell the death...

and that when it rained very hard, bone fragments still came to the top of the ground. Thanks for this post, "those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it." This is one of many warnings we have gotten about the direction in which we are headed. They feel fear for us, they have not forgotten. Maybe, the spirit of those live on to warn others who visit.

[Solly Mack]

59. I was so overwhelmed by the whole experience

The closer we got to Dachau the worse I felt. Entering through the rock gravel walkway up to a guard tower and next to the railroad crossing...I could barely breath. At the Memorial statue..a pieve of art that sends chills down the spine, I lost it. It's located near the main building...not too far inside..from that point on I was in a waking daze...if that makes sense.

[scarletlib]

3. thank you

[Solly Mack]

7. The gentleman spoke of the "victims people would rather sweep

under the carpet."

Gays
(and he used those exact words.)

How the allies overturned all the Nazi decrees concerning all the other victims except for gays. Those laws and restrictions (of the Nazis) they kept on the books. They remained on the books until the late 60's.

[Kellanved]

17. It took until 1969/1971 to get rid of these laws

Until the first post-war Social Democratic Chancellor, Willy Brandt.

And it took another thirty years until the Schröder Government finally passed a law to formerly acknowledge the victims as being unjustly prosecuted.

The joy of having a conservative Christian Democratic Party :puke:. Wehrmacht deserters, German WW2 resistance groups, Nazi-victims ... whenever it comes to remove the Nazi legislation against almost any persecuted group, they go into full "civilization is doomed" mode.

[Solly Mack]

26. That's what he said..."not until Brandt"

He really wanted us to understand and know that even after being "liberated", gays were forced into prison to serve time for crimes they supposedly committed under the Nazis.

To a better world for all!

[Kellanved]

38. Brandt was a great one

A shame that he was brought to fall. Thank you for your report!

To a better world for all! :toast:

[two gun sid]

8. I would be interested to know how the other military families...

reacted to your guides message.

I talk to people I know and work with about the horrors of this administrations policies and all I get from them is a blank stare or some rethug talking points.


Thanks for your very thoughtful and enlighhtening post.

[Solly Mack]

11. The people within my tour group enjoyed the "lesson"

and they felt they had learned a lot. You could hear snippets of conversations about Iraq (not favorably) during the lulls and knowing looks did pass between other people in my group.

I didn't really talk to other people about it though. A few words here and there...but I tend to need alone time after such things.

[leftchick]

10. I just watched Paragraph 175 on the Sundance channel

This was a whole new aspect of the other people sent to the concentration camps that I had not seen before. It was very chilling and moving. Here is a link to a review. I highly recommend it.

http://www.culturevulture.net/Movies2/Paragraph175.htm

[Solly Mack]

12. My guide made it a point to talk about homosexual victims of the Nazis

Thank you for the link!

[bobbieinok]

14. European students at a conservative christian college are constantly

amazed that the American students do NOT know that the Nazis targeted gays as well as Jews

[Solly Mack]

15. I assume people know that...and I shouldn't. (but how can they not?)

I assume people know black people died in the camps...but they don't it seems.

[leftchick]

20. I knew Homosexuals were killed

but until I saw that movie I did not know to what great lengths they went to find them. I had assumed any Blacks were targeted as well because they were not 'like them' but I have read nothing about it. They sure did not teach that to me when I was in school many years ago. Time for me to brush up on some real History books.

[Solly Mack]

23. They not only murdered them and put them in work camps

they also performed medical experiments on them (black europeans)

There is a lot of good info on the web about it.


I didn't learn about that in school either.

[leftchick]

18. That is good to hear...

Your Guide sounds like a great human being with very sage advice.

:)

[Solly Mack]

22. He was so outraged when he spoke of how gays were treated even after

the allies arrived. How they kept the laws on the books placed there by the Nazis (against gays) but got rid of all the decrees against all the other victims.

He also talked about how the poor couldn't buy their way out of Germany when in the early days people could buy passage out of Nazi Germany...

He wasn't saying the rich didn't also die....he was just saying if you were poor, you couldn't afford the ultra high rates the nazis charged for exit visas early on in their madness to rid Europe of "undesirables"

[DURHAM D]

27. Kind of interesting to know where that pink triangle came from. n/t

[Karenina]

34. Your guide

hat Klarsichtenkeit. ;-)
(Dat mean "see direct through B.S." in my improvised, personalized D'englisch for you mitmachende Amis).

[Solly Mack]

35. He was wonderful. I can't say enough good things about him

[enough]

16. Thank you Sollly Mack.

Very interesting and moving.

[Solly Mack]

19. You're welcome, enough

The tour is one everyone should take. And everyone taking the tour should have the guide I had...

[unblock]

24. my tour of dachau was in 1973.

haunting. as a 9 year old, i didn't fully grasp the significance, but i did understand the bizarreness of making a virtual industry of exterminating humans.

i got more out of my visit to terezin about 6 years ago.

[Solly Mack]

28. Terezin is on my list to visit

the whole concept of a propaganda film made to promote a lie of a "paradise ghetto" is the reason I've always wanted to visit "Theresienstadt"

the total disconnect just astounds me

[unblock]

46. yes. of course, it was all for show

jews were permitted (required, in fact) to play in the park, have picnics and whatnot, only when they were filming, which of course was rare. the rest of the time it was a concentration camp pretty much like any other.

[japple]

29. My family visited Dachau in about 1960-61

and there were still boxes of ashes stacked around the rooms that housed the ovens. I was only 10 yrs. old at the time, and remember a very dark presence in those rooms. My parents said the place stank of death. It was one of those bright, windy days where the racing clouds made weird shadows on the white gravel walkways. I imagined the angel of death flying over the place. It was a creepy experience. There were no guides at that time.

[Solly Mack]

31. I lost it just walking up to the first building...boxes of ashes would

have sent me over the edge.

A person definitely feels something as they walk the grounds and remaining original buildings.

[DURHAM D]

37. Because the Polish camps have more of the original structures

it is even more overwhelming. At least for me. The day I was there in the late 70's all of the tourists were Russian. The information that was available was in German, Russian and Polish. Fortunately my traveling companion (although he is an American) speaks all three of those languages.

However, I stood in the main building and looked at the hand lettered sign that showed the various colored triangles that the prisoners wore. To the side it showed how many had died in those camps. The word homosexual can be figured out in any of the above three languages and as it came it me what I was looking at I actually felt the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I went outside and threw up.

The friend I was traveling with was Polish American and had studied for the preisthood. He was sent to Rome to study and was assigned to the Cardinal from Poland who later became John Paul II. My friend figured out he was gay while he was in Rome and confessed to one of the Bishops. He apparently confessed to the wrong Bishop (his quote) and was kicked out. He died of complications from AIDS a few years ago and with JPII constantly in the news lately I think of my friend constantly. But then I think about that trip through East Germany, Poland and Czechoslovakia which was made possible by the fact that my friend had learned some many languages while studying at the Vatician. I miss him.

[Solly Mack]

39. You had a great loss

as did the church...for not accepting your friend for the good person he was....and instead choosing the judge him.

Thank you for sharing that.

[Steel City Slim]

30. The Liberation Of Dachau

My Dad helped liberate Dachau. He was with the US 3rd Army, 631st Tank Destroyer Battalion.

[Solly Mack]

32. Have you been? There's a film that shows many of the US soldiers

from the liberation.

A friend of mine was a 19 year old private at the time and he was there as well. I thought about him as I walked the grounds.

[Steel City Slim]

33. No

No, I've never been there. Maybe someday.

[Solly Mack]

36. Hopefully you willl...you just may see your father in those videos

It would be like crossing the bridge back in time for you...

[Disturbed]

40. Will the lesson be truely learned?

If another terrorist attack is perpetrated in Amerika and the Govt. started rounding up all Muslims and placing them in camps "for their own protection" how much of an outcry would there be?

[Steel City Slim]

50. Unfortunately....

....probably not much more than when Japanese Americans were put in concentration camps after Pearl Harbor.

[Solly Mack]

56. I fear Steel City Slim is correct

My head wants to believe the outrage would be great and people would fight to stop it...

but considering the round-ups under Ashcroft of "Muslim-looking" people put into INS detention facilities...held without knowledge...held without charges...held indefinitely...and how people called Abu Ghraib a "frat prank"

My heart tells me otherwise

[Charon]

66. I fear

Dont hold your breath. It was very easy for President Roosevelt to round up over one hundred thousand Japanese Americans and throw them into concentration camps.

[Solly Mack]

68. I'm not holding my breath

I made that clear

[Steel City Slim]

49. That Would Be Really Cool

[PittLib]

41. Thank you for this post.

I visited Dachau when I was 17 and Buchenwald when I was 21. I don't think I could ever find words to explain the experience. I have an excellent book titled "Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust" by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen. It deconstructs the notion that the participants were reluctant, and delves into the social climate that precipitated genocide.

[smirkymonkey]

42. Does the book resonate at all with what is going on in this

country? Are "Ordinary Americans" becoming "Ordinary Germans"? Could such an atrocity happen again?

[PittLib]

45. I wrote out a nice long response ...

and then lost it :argh:. Basically, I feel that our society is definitely moving in that direction. This adminstration is making and breaking it's own rules, it's shutting out other countries, it has an ever tightening grip on the media, it's actively using propaganda and plays on our fears ... many Americans feel vulnerable and threatened, they justify the mass killing of another race, they replace facts with patriotic slogans and label those who refuse to be blinded "un-American".

As far as the book is concerned, it has been a number of years since I picked through it. At over 600 pages with epilogue and notes, it is not an easy read ... but fascinating. I haven't thought about it, in relation to current events, until tonight. Not specifically, anyway. I find it striking that the events, timing and mindset precipitating Hitler's rise were so complex, that any shift could have changed the outcome (IMHO) ... yet creating a society that will allow genocide to occur is horrifyingly simple.

I'll have a more eloquent summary after a refresher read. Now if I could just get through "The Godless Constitution"...

[Buck Turgidson]

44. I was at Dachau right after 9-11

It is spooky there. And what's with the village of Dachau? Wouldn't you change the name of your town after it becomes associated with a notorious Nazi work camp?

[Solly Mack]

61. There was another name associated with the area (on road signs)

Neuberg(?) or something like that...I honestly don't remember at the moment.

[Solly Mack]

60. I've read that book

and in my History of World War II class, I chose his book to be my project.

The guide said as much as well. He said people had a choice in many cases...to serve or not serve the Reich. He said there did come a time when the Reich was forcing some people to work for them but that for many years, they had a choice.

The guide said more...much more. He wasn't letting anyone off the hook...not Germany...not the world.

[Merope215]

47. Solly Mack...check your inbox

:hi:

[Solly Mack]

62. I did and Thank you!

[RevCheesehead]

48. Your post brought back memories of Auschwitz.

I visited Auschwitz in 1993 with a choir (tour), in the middle of a frigid December day. It's the first time I have ever seen an entire group who did not talk. Silence, bitter cold, and deep, profound grief were enough for everyone that day.

[Solly Mack]

63. Yes...that silence.

Aside from our guide, who spoke quietly but firmly, no one wanted to speak. When he would ask if anyone had questions, and people did...but those questions were asked in such voices you could tell people didn't want to speak.

[Swamp Rat]

51. I went there in 1991 when I was living in Austria

Here's a good link (photos and information) on Dachau:

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/Contents.html

[Yupster]

54. Good link swamprat

good info.

I visited in 1980 when I went to school in Austria.

[Solly Mack]

64. Thanks, SwampRat.

I checked out a few sites prior to my trip..."getting prepared"

But nothing really prepares you for it. Not even the stories from my childhood. I grew around 4 survivors of Auschwitz. One couple, who were married at the time of their internment, and another couple who met after the war was over.

[SW FL Dem]

52. I visited Dachau in 1982

It was one of the most chilling and memorable experiences of my life. I left in tears.

[Solly Mack]

65. There was a lot of silence on the trip home for the first hour or so

a bus load of people lost in their own thoughts.

I had my nose pressed against the window and my husband asked me what I was doing..I told him I was looking out for animals..birds, deers..whatever I could find. I needed to see something good. Something that reminded me that life can continue and be good.

[wryter2000]

70. Thank you

I wish I'd been there.

[Solly Mack]

79. I think most everyone on DU would have loved the young man

who guided our group. Just going was an experience...it brings the horror that humans can cause home...

[Psst_Im_Not_Here]

71. I visited there as a teen

MY Oma (grandma in German) thought that it was something we should see. It changed my entire view of the world. It also probably had an effect on my political view as well. I felt like a spoiled selfish american brat! Which was probably true.

The experience lead me to delve into our own history of genocide ie the Native Americans. Lately, this country seems to be claiming the moral high ground when in reality we have no leg to stand on.

Those who don't know history are condemned to repeat it.

As we left there, my Oma said "Never forget what you have seen here" and I never will.

[Solly Mack]

76. Exactly. I sat on the steps of the "Economic" building at Dachau

and just thought of all kinds of things...Tribes in America,Slavery and the Middle Passage,Jim Crow and the lynchings, the Armenians, Shoal, Rwanda, Darfur...America now...other events...

I found no moral highground.

[G_j]

72. thank you

I actually read it twice. :toast:

[Karenina]

73. Kick!

:kick:

[Solly Mack]

77. I've sent a letter of appreciation to the Memorial and especially thanked

my guide in that letter.

thank you, G_j

[noiretextatique]

74. hi solly mack!

thanks for your report. you guide sounds like a great teacher...even for those who don't like to listen.
i have some friends who've visited the places in the ivory coast and ghana where africans would be held like animal before being horded into ships like animals.
they described a similar experience...the shock and awe of the human capacity for cruel, insane inhumanity.

[Solly Mack]

78. I'd love to go to the Cote d'Ivoire and other places for the telling of

that end of the story...

If you're ever in Georgia...down south Georgia in the city of Columbus..on the military reservation, Fort Benning...ask for directions to the Vet clinic...along that road you'll find a marked trail leading down to an old slave dock...still there. The river once came as far as the dock area and you can still some of the remaining foundations...just to walk over that ground...and think about what took place there. I used to sit for hours there and just think...

Fort Benning doesn't advertise it's existance...but it's there and more people need to know it's there.

[noiretextatique]

75. hi solly mack!

thanks for your report. you guide sounds like a great teacher...even for those who don't like to listen.
i have some friends who've visited the places in the ivory coast and ghana where africans would be held like animal before being horded into ships like animals.
they described a similar experience...the shock and awe of the human capacity for cruel, insane inhumanity.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

80. Thanks for the post

Wow. I am speechless.
The closest I ever came to experiencing what you did (and it doesn't come close) was the Holocaust Museum in DC.
Abu Gharib doesn't need to be said, think of what else we haven't heard of or the unreleased photos we haven't seen. A comparison with the horrors of WWII shows we have lost our moral authority.

[Solly Mack]

81. Yes! "What we don't know" about it (AG)...that really really scares me

What other horrors will eventually come out...

We don't know the worst of it yet. :(

[lebkuchen]

82. I hope I'm not too late to contribute to this thread

I just returned from a trip to a country that was devastated by the Nazis, and I believe Miep Gies is still alive.

http://teacher.scholastic.com/frank/tscripts/miep.htm

The only Nazi concentration camp on French soil is Natzweiler-Struthof, which, according to my guidebook, provided the university in Strasbourg with inmates for use in lethal psuedu-medical experiments involving combat gases and infectious diseases such as hepatitis. "In April 1943 about 100 Jewish prisoners, specially brought from Auschwitz, were gassed at Natzwiler-Struthof to supply the anatomical institute of the university with skeletons for its anthropological and racial skeleton collection."

The "camp" is near Obernei, in Alsace.