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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:12 AM
Original message
Is the Bankruptcy bill a prelude of things to come?
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 08:12 AM by TornadoTN
I have been keeping tabs on the new Bankruptcy Bill, I'm thouroughly amazed that this piece of work was shafted down the throats of Americans with barely a thought. Granted, you have to pay your bills, but there are circumstances (thanks to the Bush economy) where you are unable to meet your obligations and need to seek relief before you lose everything. Citizens should make every attempt to settle the debt amicably and I have no sympathy for those that max credit cards with no intention on ever repaying. But this bill, in my opinion, is specifically aimed at the majority of those that file for bankruptcy as a last resort.

Is this bill intended to help out the corporate interests that are firmly entrenched behind the scenes in our government when (NOT IF) the Bush economy collapses? Only corporate America is seeing record profits, yet the middle-class workers are not seeing a dime of this and are being told that the company is having a hard time making ends meet.

I am a member of corporate America, I am a marketing executive in a manufacturing company, and yes, my company is run by rabid Bush supporters (with my exception). I just dont feel right with the way things are going and hearing our employees frustration that they just aren't able to make their money go as far as they need. Even some, who were die-hard Republicans, have said they wished that Clinton was running our economy. Never have truer words been spoken.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. Unemployed 61 Months Here - The Plan Is Long Term Servitude
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 08:31 AM by mhr
Bush and company want two classes of people - the ultra-wealthy and everyone else.
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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Sadly enough, your right
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 08:28 AM by TornadoTN
Its a serfdom, if I remember my middle-ages history correctly.

I guess the part that Im struggling with is that as a young executive, I see the huge disparity between corporate and the rest of the employees in most companies. As I see it, and most other educated individuals in the educational world that teach business agree, is that a company can achieve better results when the company is united. I push for events for our employees to improve morale, and the answer from the CEO is "they get a paycheck, thats all the morale they need". That paycheck has not increased (if it has, its paltry) in 5 years! The cost of living, even here in Tennessee, has increased! Why not let these guys have a picnic, an outing, or some other type of event to promote a little unity?

I guess work is just getting to me when I see this happening all across the country. To all of you out there that are in the hourly or skilled employee sector, just remember that not all of us in the corporate structure are the greedy, heartless bastards that the majority would like you to believe.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yes - I Have The MBA As Well - All Of The Organizational
Behavior theory I learned has been thrown out the window by the current dogma of Big Business.

It baffles me that the current crop of business leaders seems so out of touch with reality.

I guess if your making millions personally it really does not matter anymore.
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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Glad to meet you!
I'm finishing my MBA, I lack two classes that I will be finishing during the summer term. Luckily, the professors I have had have went above and beyond trying to explain that we, as leaders, need to get away from this "Big Business Is Everything Mentality". We have even looked at case studies of companies that are claiming "record profits" now and their track record during the Clinton economy. During the Clinton economy, the vast majority of record profits were reinvested into the company, into the employees. Productivity rose, employees were generally more satisfied with their job and their work, and the quality of the products and services were at an all time high.

Then enter the "Lean Phenonmenon" and the Bush years. The only time since before the Great Depression have companies claimed that they are having a hard time and having to "go lean", yet their profits have quadrupled but internal investment has dried up.

Its terrifying.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I'm Curious - Do The Business Professors Have An Explanation
For the current behavior of big business?

In other words, why the switch from one philosophy under Clinton to another one under Bush.

Is there some phenomena going on that is hard to quantify or qualify?

On a personal level, I have been unemployed for a long time. My background includes the MBA and a BSEE. I also served as a Naval Officer and am a commercial pilot.

With over three thousand resumes out the door, I can only conclude that American business has no interest in domestic talent and is relying on foreign labor for most (or all) growth.
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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. My observation
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 09:12 AM by TornadoTN
I have heard several different theories, ranging from the basic "greed equation" to the outsourcing of labor. I think its a combination of all of them, but I am a big opponent of the "Lean" movement as it is stands today.

On its face, its a great strategy, get more done at less cost without compromising results. Basic business. But the current push is to cut corners at every opportunity, which means outsourcing labor and materials to a cheaper environment and shorting employees by cutting benefits and salaries. During the Clinton administration, this wasn't as big of a problem, because we had some controls in place (aside from China) that kept most companies finding ways to do the best work here stateside. Additionally, the spending restraint from *gasp* a democratic President helped ease fears of a massive defecit spending spree that would bankrupt everyone but the defense industry (always a cornerstone regardless of party affiliation). Companies recieved tax breaks by re-investing money, rather than investing it in the top salaries and pensions. Result: companies grew, more people were making a livable salary and the quality of our products were outstanding. The economy grew because people had more money to spend. Why is our economy growing so slowly, if at all today? Not enough disposable income from the middle class.

Now, we have no controls on outsourcing. As a matter of fact, you can go to your local United States Department of Commerce office, and they will be more than willing to help you get started outsourcing. Try to get them to help you find sources within the United States. Further, the Bush administration has shown that it will do anything and say anything to get their policies progressed. CEO's have shifted that direction as well, they have little to lose, a la Ken Lay and Enron.

That is what I have taken from my professors, most of whom are staunch conservatives. It really lends credence to my theory that the last election was a sham when noted conservatives have serious reservations about the Republican party and its direction and are starting to endorse a "Clintonian" view of the economy.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Yes - Macroeconomics 101 - Marginal Propensity To Consume
I trot that out every time I speak with conservatives on "trickle down economics."

For those that are unfamiliar with the concept it is quite simple. Tax breaks given to the wealthiest individuals in a society will not have as substantial a stimulative benefit as tax cuts given to those less fortunate.

The reason is simple. By definition a wealthy person can already spend as much as they like. So, giving them a tax break will not increase their spending. In other words their marginal propensity to consume is very low.

However, those less fortunate are already tapped out on spending. Giving tax breaks to these folks will significantly increase their spending. They have a high marginal propensity to consume.

Since, in the US economy, 66% of US GDP is consumer spending, tax cuts to those with high marginal propensity to consume will have a significant impact on the economy.

As we all now know, the Bush administration did exactly the opposite of the right thing.

Back on topic. So since the Bush administration reflects a "greed is good" philosophy, this is reflected in the national business leadership as well? Is that the essence of current business analysis?

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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Yep
"Greed is Good". I have even heard it described in companies that the only people in the company that deserve the money and know what to do with it are the executives. Look at most any companies annual report, do some basic bath and you will see where the money is distributed and who has the control of whats left over.

I had one professor, who professes to be a "conservative libretarian" put it exactly the way you summed up your last two questions: (paraphrasing) "The current business environment is shaped by the perception and precedents set by our federal government and our leaders, and we are now seeing that Greed is Good and that the means justifies the end only at the top of todays corporate structure".
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Sad - Thanks For Sharing
Seems my instincts are not as rusty as I had believed.

It must be difficult working in that environment. It would drive me crazy because my mindset is Stewardship not Exploitation.

Philosophically, I am obviously out of touch and this probably reflects on why I am still unemployed.
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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Don't feel too bad
I'm very glad and consider myself fortunate to have the job I do now. I worked hard to get here and have had a lot to prove, since the general perception of me was that I was a "liberal".

I was pulled into the Presidents office one day, shortly after I was hired in 2003. We talked in general about my plans for marketing, etc. Our conversation shifted to future plans for the company and he mentioned I would be in line to possibly become the President of the company, since I'm young and have a good track record, yet he expressed his concern that certain other factors might prohibit my advancement. Of course, it was my politics. We talked at length about this, I didn't back down. I baffled him when I said, "I'm economically conservative, yet socially liberal". His argument was that you couldn't be both. I countered with, "You can't call yourself a Republican if you do not have the opinion that bigger government is good, spending is better and the lack of corporate accountability and ethics are the best". He answered, "But I dont believe in those things" (my opinions of his managing aside), I asked "Who did you vote for in 2000?", of course he said "Bush". I said "Then by default and your support of him, you are approving of those very same policies".
Luckily, he laughed and said we would agree to disagree. I believe I may have actually scored some points by sticking to my guns. Of course, he has plenty of excuses for everything Bush and GOP does.

But back on topic, it is difficult to work in an environment where the employee (the guys that are the most important) is considered expendable and least important. As a company, we are doing very well (I count my blessings), but our productivity and morale is about to hit rock bottom. We have lost several of our best skilled employees to other companies because they were told if they didn't like things, they could get out. They did. So now, as the guy over marketing, I am trying to add little things into by budget that normally focuses on customers, to include our employees. Some things get through, others fall because they are too transparent and obviously geared to employees. But I feel its something that has to be done or we are going to cease to be an effective company.

Anyway, its been a rough week at work, hence my ranting. I guess its the struggle within myself to keep my composure and work for positive change.

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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Keep Up The Good Fight And All The Best!
eom
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Trickle down/supply side economics never worked under Reagan, and it
isn't now. Even David Stockman disavowed trickle down. All Reagan did was run up national debt with his tax cuts and wild spending on defense. Those tax cuts of Bush 3 years ago have never once produced the promised 320,000+ jobs a month. The media NEVER calls him on it. The job creation in this country is pathetic. And so are the types of jobs.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Yes, And The Experts Agree On The Jobless Recovery
"Overall, this level of (job) creation represents the worst job performance since the Bureau of Labor Statistics began collecting monthly jobs data in 1939 (at the end of the Great Depression)."

http://www.jobwatch.org /

"In the previous five expansionary economic cycles the average increase in employment over the first 39 months was 10.1%. In the current cycle the increase is 1.5%.

If employment had climbed by 10.1 % since November 2001, we would have added 13.2 million jobs instead of the 1.9 million actually reported. That’s a difference of 11.3 million jobs."

http://www.comstockfunds.com/screenprint.cfm?newsletterid=1165

My Conclusion: The American middle class is fast approaching demise and will need life support to survive!
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. I agree with your conclusion. It is also affecting the lower paid
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 11:08 AM by barb162
workers probably even more disastrously, the (ex) factory workers of this country.

Did you see that thing on United and PBG yesterday? Forget the pensions those workers thought they had. I think we will see more and more of this. I wonder when General Motors and a whole bunch of other companies will now go to that federal agency and say they can't do their pensions and that agency will say "okay, don't bother."

Let me ask a personal question and that is about something I have been noticing. For many years in my area I have seen signs on every retailer's front door that they needed help. In the last 2 or so years these signs have completely disappeared. My personal take on that is that when jobs were fairly booming under Clinton, no one wanted those retail jobs, but the last few years, as middle class types were laid off and they couldn't find anything at all approximating their old spots, they bit the bullet and took the stock reshelving jobs at minimum wage just to get any money. I noticed too many people around here with gold rolexes and hundred dollar haircuts stocking shelves.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Your Intuition On Over Qualified workers Is Spot On
I know of many people like myself that are working in places like Home Depot. These former professional workers have been forced to take scraps just to meet commitments, forget about a future.

I have been saved from that plight simply because of deep savings and few responsibilities i.e. no kids, no wife, no car payment, no mortgage. Others were not so lucky.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #17
32. Gordon Gecco's famous line from "Wall Street" Greed is good
but only for rich people and business leaders. Tax cuts are only good for these people. Only they should have parachutes and benefits. And let's not forget another great line "Only the little people pay taxes" (Leona Helmsley).

Bush has been busy since his first day in office gutting everything he can in the way of benefits, consumer protection, worker protection, the civil justice system, the tax code, bankruptcy laws, etc., in his quest to cater to the business leaders and busainess who fund the Republican party.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. Under the Bush Administration, Corporate America
has suddenly been given the "green light" to proceed on a reckless course of unmitigated greed and plundering.

This government has endowed the corporate wolves with a sense of entitlement and has encouraged the notion that human beings are little more than industry fodder.

It's sickening.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. welcome to DU
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. I think they are totally in touch with reality and reality to
them is they do not give a crap about people down the ladder from them. They expect loyalty and give nothing in return other than that paycheck. Instead of loyalty going both ways as it once did in the corporate world, now it is a dog-eat-dog environment in many companies. (I have an MBA too)
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. Yes Barb - I Agree That We Are Witnessing The Same Phenomena
What I wonder though is what happened to the concept of Stewardship i.e. the concept that longevity and growth tempered by prudence is more important than reckless behavior.

Has the economy become so dynamic that these concepts are merely antiquated? Or, has the economy become so complex that our current business leadership is incapable of dealing with the challenges? Or, is there some other non-obvious driver motivating the behavior we see?
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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. First Glance
At first glance, you would be led to think that the old way of doing business is "antiquated".

But look at our current crop of executives (not all, but most) of Fortune 500 companies, you will see that your second question holds a lot of truth.

Finally, look at our own President. Every company he has touched has been a bust (Arbusto anyone?), yet he comes out a millionaire at the end. Its the classic bait and switch, yet on a much more serious level. Now we have his administration and his view of business imposed on corporate america. Its like watching a late night info-mercial claiming you can "Get Rich Quick", yet never pay the consequences.

This second term is going to be filled with this nonsense and more attempts to get just a little more for the top before they get out. They got where they are now by possible fraud and by bold-face, strong arm tactics of a television evangelist: fear, deception and emotion.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. I wanted to mention to you when you earlier wrote that I wanted to
throw all my books out too, the theories are still excellent but no one is practicing them these days.

I keep thinking of the Sears/K-Mart merger or should I say K-Mart takeover. Sears was so well-known years many ago with cutting edge and extensive employee benefits, constant employee studies about what works best, people would walk out of there with huge profit-sharing checks, etc. That place has been so gutted over the years with layoffs and the people who are left will be in for a rude awakening with the K-Mart takeover. Beside the fact that K-Mart was in bankruptcy and catered to the blue-light crowd and Sears was once the largest employer in the country and THE "middle class" store. How the mighty have fallen and how the middle class has been evaporating.

I think as Wall Street and the market analysts there have been demanding short term growth over long term growth, that became a larger and larger problem for companies reinvesting. Reinvesting is always a risk and Wall Street wants definites. I notice drug companies not investing so much anymore in research, rather they tend to buy up companies around the world. I notice that also in the oil industry where it seems easier to buy another oil company and their oil reserves than to explore for more fields.

I don't see the economy as dynamic, except as to a downward slope. I think we will be a second rate economy in very short order as we continue to ship good-paying jobs to Asia and elsewhere. A lot of people are totally clueless we are also shipping way more than the manufacturing there but also some of the best technology. They think it is just the low-level tech stuff. BULL!! WHat country ships away (pisses away) its most recent technology and lays off its most knowledgeable employees? The next tech revolutions will come from Asia as unemployed tech people here work at Home Depot part-time competing with high school kids on summer break. Especially with the Chinese, the last thing they should be allowed is manufacturing of high tech items; they are so-well known for stealing and patent infringement for so many years. Between the unfair trade practices, the dumping, etc., and the fact these wusses on our trade teams never have enough balls to push the issue internationally, they keep doing it and we let them. We have let it go so far it has become irretrievable.

As long as the people at the top and the boards of directors are only concerned about their own packages and parachutes, nothing will change. Look at H-P, Disney, Enron, WorldCom and so many others. Why in the world was Eisner getting the $$$$ he was getting? DUH? What the hell did Carly Fiorina do at H-P except piss off and fire all the tech people who were the lifeblood of future products? None of those morons in the top spots are worth a hundredth of what they are actually making. Most of them are walking disasters. But they have a good line of bullshit for the Wall Street analysts, who then push the bullshit to investors. Isn't it funny how the analysts on Wall Street know so much about their client companies until the client companies collapse, then they knew nothing about it (except for the e-mail trails).

I actually remember back when there was loyalty and trust between employers and employees at many companies. And that is why people worked at one place their entire lives. That is even becoming rare now in government jobs.

I also think the concept of sociopathic behavior is overlooked. People think it is rare. It is a lot more common than people think. When the SEC sits on its hands and lets things happen because they have been gutted and it takes a person like Spitzer, a state guy, to go after the business bad guys, there's basically no enforcement. Sociopaths thrive when there is no enforcement. And the sociopaths running the companies don't give a damn that the average worker is working twice as hard for half the money. The sociopaths have to run off to their golf game. When it all collapses, the rich guys will just head off to the Riviera or Switzerland. I see the collapse coming re the debt and deficit numbers, the falling dollar, the oil situation, the highly understated unemployment numbers, etc.
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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Excellent
Excellent post! Most informative.

You are exactly right about outsourcing and China. My company is a split between a manufacturing and a technology firm. We do both in the specialized area we operate in. Our products must continually be developed and made more efficient, so we play in both ball parks of technology and manufacturing.

Two years ago, a Chinese company purchased one of our pieces of equipment (a full system ranges from $125,000 to $600,000). I found it peculiar that they only bought one, because these are usually bought in quantities of 2 or more. So, the President sends me to China to meet with the company after we manufactured and shipped it. They didnt want an installer or an engineer for consulting, just the machine.

Now to any reasonable person, this would raise large, vibrant red flags. I arrive in China, meet with the company and find out that the machine is not in service. I inquire why, they say "we dont need it at the moment". Odd. So after doing a little snooping in conjunction with a competitor who was going through the same thing, we found where our machine was being stored. We went to visit under the guise we were looking into finding a repair facility. We walk in, our machine is in hundreds of pieces. They were taking it apart, measuring EVERYTHING precisely. Yes, our one sale set up our first Asian competition.

I get back to the States, review our legal options and international law. Basically, there is nothing we can do about it, because China essentailly refuses to enforce patent/trademark/IP law. A year later, we have developed an improvement to the machine for retrofit. They buy one, and to my objections, it was sold and shipped anyway. Its only a matter of time before they figure out how to actually make their own components to get similar results to our machine. Once that happens, we will be forced to make a decision whether to open a facility in China just to compete (costing American jobs) or get under-bid on every project by 40-65%.

In today's economy, its all about the dollar right now, never mind the consequences tommorrow. (Now do you guys see what I have been so frustrated on this topic!?)
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Great , great story and all too damned typical and they
will make that machine for some fraction of your place. I have been saying for at least 20 years we need strong and enforced fair trade laws instead of free trade. I have seen some fairly good articles by some forward thinking economists about how free trade simply doesn't work when there is a great disparity in worker salaries between countries. Call me racist but several Asian countries literally just steal the intellectual property of others and they have done it thousands of times and for a few decades now (China, Indonesia, Japan, etc). And our trade delegations have consistently sat on their hands. Just like Japan was dumping for years to break the back of various industries here and we mouth a few words but never retaliated. I know right now we are not in the position anymore to retaliate. A lot of people who actually made and designed machines here are either dead or working in other fields. We have literally cut our own throats.We never should have gone into some of those trade deals. The Asians have used the greed of our top executives (use of the cheapest manufacturing price) to gut our industry, technology,etc.

Once they gain the knowledge, buy or steal the technology,it's over for us in industry after industry because they can make the stuff cheaper there. I keep telling people we are done for in this country. And think of all the people we have been educating from other countries in sciences and engineering. We have never been smart enough in this country to think in national strategic terms of protecting our technology. And it's probably a few years too late to protect what little rest we have.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. I Saw This With Air Traffic Control Technology 15 Years Ago
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 12:41 PM by mhr
The Taiwanese Civil Aviation Authority had a specific policy on technology transfer. They would only buy American systems so they could extract as much knowledge as possible preparing for the day that they would make it themselves.

When I made my first trip to Taiwan in 1991, I stayed at a hotel next to their ministry of trade in downtown Taipei. The building was open to the public on Sundays and I went in for a tour. I was shocked to see floor after floor of parts and assemblies that used to be made in the US - screws, bolts, fasteners, wire, wiring assemblies, injection molded plastics, tools, machine tools, etc.

It dawned on me then that the US was on downward course.

This has been going on for along time. But getting anyone to listen is beyond impossible. All the while America's industrial base is further eroded leaving us with nothing but Hamburger Jockey jobs. Pardon me, that was meant to be Hamburger manufacturing jobs under the new Republican parlance.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. "But getting anyone to listen is beyond impossible"
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 12:58 PM by barb162
There's the problem. It should be instantly recognizable to everyone, but most Americans don't care unless it directly affects them. (The peak oil problem is similar)

When something should have been done, such as instituting fair trade laws and/or restricting imports to protect vital industries and jobs here, we didn't do it in the name of capitalism and free markets as if they are some be-all and end-all. Back in the days when workers could retrain (80s and 90s), things still seemed to be working. But what do people retrain for now? We have given away our prosperous future for quick bucks. I think we will become an agrarian economy for Asia.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Once Peak Oil Hits We Will Do Well Just Feeding Ourselves
Seriously, the real problem is that while people like ourselves can see the problem clearly, we have no ability to act because we are all caught in the system without real power.

Our only course is to live our lives as honestly as we can and prepare for the worst.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. you nailed it! It is going to get very, very scary.
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
2. BINGO!
I was going to post something similar. These guys have the inside track. DUers have been saying that BushCo is lying to us about the economy, and that we're actually close to collapse and the housing bubble is about to burst. Well, if we're convinced they're lying, that must mean the truth is the opposite of the good news they're telling us...and that means, as with the approaching 9/11 planes, they know its coming. The tax cuts help. Accumulate enough wealth to weather a few years of depression. If everyone defaults on their CC bills when the crash comes, the industry is ruined. This protects them from the inevitable.

Good catcb.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
3. Since we have no media in this country, people will find out
about how bad this bill is when its too late. I practice bankruptcy law and the abuse of the system is very small, and could easily have been fixed by tweaking some procedures.

Instead, they have imposed a system for middle class americans who get in financial trouble because of medical bills, divorce or job layoffs that simply will not be workable. They are trying to legislatively get blood out of turnips with this thing. It won't work. It will drive people to the underground economy where they won't pay taxes and never get a fresh start to get back on their feet.

I bankruptcy judge I spoke to about this a couple of weeks ago predicted they would be forced to change it back within two years and predicted a massive hue and cry when the effects of this thing begin being felt in 6 months when it takes effect.
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. I hope that Judge is correct...
if this law isn't repealed, there are going to be two choices for Americans; perpetual debt or death. I foresee a hefty jump in suicide rates in the coming years. I'm serious. Good people that have had hard times don't have any way to get a second chance anymore. Many would choose death over never ending despair.
Mark my words, this is what it's going to come to.
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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Eerily similarities
If anyone cares to look at the similiarties of the economy leading up to the Great Depression and the end results and then compare & contrast that with todays economy, you will see some very disturbing similarities.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a "doomsdayer" by any means. I think we can prevent it from happening if we can make some fundamental changes in 2006 & 2008 in our government. But the main key is going to be educating our future business leaders that the key to prosperity is not from hoarding profits at the top. To the Freepers, its not wealth redistribution, its good business sense that is the very basis of prosperity. It assures that you have a vibrant and productive work force, a company that is willing to invest in itself to adapt to the market rather than padding the pockets of the top. Your CEO's and corporate staff WILL NOT BE LOSING MONEY!!!!! They will be making more money for themselves and ensuring they have a company for years to come. But thats the problem: absolute power corrupts absoloutely. Once most CEO's have tasted the fruit, they dont want to give it up and they will keep it for themselves. By the time the company is withering, they have made their fortune to weather the storm, while the employees are forced to sit outside in it.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #7
33. suicide or lots of alcohol and other drug abuse.
In many ways we are going back to a pre-FDR, 1920s society. No Social Security, no Medicare, no safety net, etc. People will work like serfs or indentured servants trying to pay off debts.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. I like the full title of that bankruptcy bill
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 09:02 AM by barb162
"Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005"

It almost sounds like Ralph Nader introduced it. One has to hand it to the legislators who introduced it and came up with that title.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
19. No, it is a screaming frigging announcement of the way things are
it's a multi-generational class war and we ordinary people are getting our asses kicked.
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catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
20. I think they lit the fuse to their funeral pyre
They've been heaping fuel for the last four years, I don't see anything coming to save us. Our economy is sliding into the ditch, nothing but waste is trickling down, if things haven't gone completely to hell by next summer, I'll be suprised.
The mysery index is about to take a geometrical increase, soon there will be more than spit and pies in the air.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
22. The ruling elite in this country want another big buying opportunity
Much like they had in the Great Depression. In order to achieve that, they're looking to drive this economy right into the ground, and to shred the middle class.

This will ultimately backfire on them. The middle class has always been the bulwark between the poor and the ruling elite. It provides hope, order, and a cushion. If the ruling elite in this country shred the middle class, well, at some point we'll have a revolution that will make the French look like pikers.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #22
34. Next up...
Real estate.
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
30. of course, it is screw the little guy time
I have taken up the famous Soviet philosophy: I pretend to work and they pretend to pay me. No benefits, no vacation, no sick leave. 35 hrs/wk @ $10/hr. What company loyality? Why should I care?

And yes, I am looking into bankruptcy before the law takes effect.
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