"Since 'they' took prayer out out school..."

[rockymountaindem]

You hear this a lot from the right wing, and it got me thinking; did anyone really take prayer out of school? Was it even there in the first place? So, I asked my father, who attended public school in Pennsylvania during the '40s and '50s whether or not they ever prayed in school. He said that he couldn't recall ever being involved in any group prayer, school mandated or otherwise.

I'm only 18, and obviously I've never dealt with prayer in school. Are there any DUers out there, preferably those who attended school during the so-called "good ol' days" (when the RW likes to pretend nothing bad ever happened and the whole country was one big episode of the Andy Griffith show), who could tell the young uns here if they ever prayed in school?

[SouthernDem2004]

1. Yes they prayed in school but no one cared. It was not a big deal.

I am a big ol' heathen and it did not bother me one bit.

[ck4829]

2. It is a lie

It's just an attempt for the Theocrats to sink their tendrils into America.

[Bouncy Ball]

3. I didn't attend school in the 50s (wasn't even alive)

but I can tell you some things.

First of all, the right seems to perpetuate this myth that kids aren't allowed to pray in school. That's absolutely untrue. ANY kid can pray ANY prayer ANY time they want, as long as it does not disrupt the class.

The TEACHER cannot lead the class in prayer, because he or she is an agent of the state. An administrator cannot, either.

However, you have FCA meetings (Fellowship of Christian Athletes) at tons of schools, and they meet ON campus and have "prayer meetings."

Educate your fellow Americans: kids are allowed to pray in schools. Teachers are allowed to pray in schools. Administrators are allowed to pray in schools. They simply cannot ADVOCATE by leading the class or a group of kids in prayer during school hours. Also, kids cannot disrupt class with their prayer (ie: if someone busted out a prayer mat, faced east and began praying during a test, that would be a problem, LOL!).

It's such bunk. You can talk to God or Allah or Ra or Jehovah or the purple three eyed god in your teapot ANY time you want. I'm sure, being gods, they can hear you.

[rockymountaindem]

15. That reminds me of a joke I saw on someone's t-shirt one time

It said "as long as there are tests, there will be prayer in school"

[DinahMoeHum]

22. Truer words were never spoken!!

That sentiment also goes for athletic and live arts performances as well!!

And the basic prayer is: Please don't let me make an asshole out of myself!

:evilgrin:

[ewagner]

4. Westside Grammer School

Sanford Florida, 1958-59. School day started with the Students and teachers assembled outside in front of the steps with Pledge of Alliegence, PRAYER led by Principal, Singing America the Beautiful and then The Florida Song....then announcements and then into class.

Nobody thought much about it then....

come to think of it...didn't even notice that there weren't any blacks in the classes.....

never wondered where blacks went to school either.....

wasnt too socially aware at that age.....(11-12 years old)

[Bouncy Ball]

6. My suburb was one of those white flight burbs

and growing up, I never noticed there weren't too many minorities at my schools (I grew up in the 70s and 80s, long after official desegregation!).

But as I got older and looked back at my yearbooks, I thought "HUH?" We were SO white.

Now, the suburb I grew up in is VERY multicultural. So is the one I live in now.

I guess I didn't notice because I never knew anything different.

[ewagner]

8. "I never knew anything different"

I know what you mean.....

It wasn't until my Sophomore year of high school that I started to feel guilt about the Civil Rights Movement.....

When I got to college...I was a full-scale radical on the subject....

[teenagebambam]

7. There's a Florida song?

[ewagner]

10. Yes there was...

I wish i could find the lyrics....some I still remember

...it's a great place for the sunshine,
that's so good for us you know...

so I'll make my home in Florida
where the orange blossoms grow....

[teenagebambam]

5. When I was in Fourth Grade...

...Mrs. Lee made us say the Lord's Prayer every morning. This was in the mid-70's, long after "they" had "taken" prayer "out" of the schools. No one cared much, except the Catholic kids who didn't know the end, and the one Jehovah's Witness girl who had to go stand outside until the prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance were done.

[liberal N proud]

9. You know, I don't ever remember praying in school!

I went to public school in a small protestant community in rural Iowa.
If anyone was going to do praying in public schools in the 60's I think it would have happened there. This little town of 800 had 6 churches.
We said the pledge of allegiance every morning, but no prayers.
This is more propaganda the Reich wing fundamentalist are using to push their religion on every soul.

[Abelman]

11. We're keeping God out of the schools!

They say this too.

I say, if they think we're powerful enough to order God around don't you think we should be the ones in power? I mean, we're ordering around omnipotent beings!

Just a sign that the "faithful" have no faith.

[WalrusSlayer]

12. Nope...

Elementary School in NH/VT from 1970-78, and I can't recall a single time that teachers or administration led students in prayer. Certainly never in High School.

[Tux]

13. Evangelicals

Are mad since they can't have teachers force kids to pray or convert to Evangelical insanity. People can pray at anytime but ministers got the uneducated of America convinced that they can't pray in school and belive it since a minister said it.

Is it just more or are churches becoming big cults?

[Demit]

14. Info on SCOTUS decisions on school prayer--

at http://members.tripod.com/~candst/pray2a.htm
Excerpt:

"...Engel v. Vitale, the Court confronted head on the constitutionality of organized prayer in school. 370 U.S. 421 (1962).

State law had allowed the reading of the following prayer in each class in the presence of a teacher at the beginning of each school day: "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country." Parents of ten students sued the school Board of Education in New York State Court claiming that the prayer was unconstitutional.

It is important to stress that the Court found official prayers...to recite as part of a religious program carried on by government was unconstitutional. Only Government mandated or required programs of prayer and Bible reading violated the Establishment Clause. No other type of prayer activity was prohibited by the Engel Case. ...


In effect, these cases are the law governing school prayer. None said that a student was absolutely prohibited from partaking in his or her daily prayer rituals in school. None has said that a prayer in the morning, at lunch time, at recess, before a test or with other students after school is unconstitutional. Students may distribute religious literature to students and talk to students about their religious beliefs. Students may discuss religion in class and write reports concerning religion for class assignments. They may wear religious clothing and symbols."

[beyurslf]

16. The religious nuts love pointing out that since "they" took prayer

out of schools... and then name a whole list of bad things that have happened since then. And somehow this proves that taking prayer out of schools did it...and it wasn't any one (or a combination of many) of the bad things that also occurred in those times.

[Bouncy Ball]

18. I started school in 1975.

And I don't remember a single time we were led in prayer.

AND I don't remember ever saying the pledge of allegiance past the first grade.

:shrug:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. I lived briefly in Florida in the '50s.

I remember being stunned by having to pray in school. Even more shocked when my sweet looking grey haired teacher shrilly informed us that "No niggers are ever going to come to this school!" My first encounter with a "respectable" person's ugly and blatant racism.

[ewagner]

23. It was worse than that

in 7th grade we were taught American History...and the teacher also found it necessary to teach us the history OF THE KLAN!!

He railed against the WARREN COURT! and said the South would meet the threat (of the court) "...with arms....and I don't mean the ones attached to my shoulders...."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. I was 13 at the time and couldn't believe what I saw and heard.

I remember riding the school bus to school one day and the kids leaning out the windows to scream insults and spit at a very old black man with a cane walking down the street.

Florida convinced this California born white kid that racism was just plain wrong.

[ewagner]

28. Yes, I know what you mean

Sometimes I feel very angry that our kids don't understand the depth of the hatred and bigotry that had to be overcome. I don't think they understand that we have to be on guard constantly to keep the hatred under control....

the fight isn't over

actually it never will be.....

[SmokingJacket]

19. When I was a teacher in the 90's....

there was a lot of bitching and moaning because some parent had sued -- just recently -- to make the teachers stop holding morning prayers.

This was in the small-town South. They were still all steamed up over integration, too. Most of the white kids went to private schools.

I also have vague memories of being required to pray -- silently -- in school when I was a kid in the seventies. Being nonreligious I had no idea what to do with my hands. And it made me feel like a big fat hypocrite.

[Bridget Burke]

20. Semi-rural Texas in the 1950's...

We started each day with the Plegallegiance (that's how we pronounced it) & "My Country Tis of Thee."

There might have been prayer at the occasional assembly, but it was rare. I do remember the silly people didn't know when to stop the Our Father.

[sandnsea]

21. 1963 Murray ruling

Organized prayer and Bible reading unconstitutional, and kids are a "captive audience". The only thing that is unconstitutional is a teacher or administrator organizing religious activity. Kids can, as long as it's completely voluntary. The football stadium led prayer goes back to the "captive audience" thing again, I think. So most likely anybody who went to school after 1963 wouldn't have had organized prayer in school, or shouldn't have anyway.

[onager]

24. By the time...

...of the Engel and Murray Supreme Court decisions in the early Sixties, I believe 37 states had already banned "official" prayers in the classroom.

You can find out a lot about this topic on the ACLU web site.

We very rarely hear about all the strife school prayer caused, back in the legendary Good Old Days.

You might also google "The Bible Wars," which took place in Philadelphia in the 1840's and led directly to the establishment of Catholic parochial schools in the U.S. When Pennsylvania school officials forced Catholic students to use the King James Bible, the bad feelings eventually eruputed into days of rioting which left churches burned and people dead and hospitalized.

A few years ago, the ACLU took the case of a Fundamentalist woman in Oklahoma whose beliefs forbade school prayer. Her house was burned down, too.

We've come a long way...

[FreedomAngel82]

25. I was in public school

and we used to have a prayer at football games but a year or two later they changed it to a moment of silence. Same for the beginning of the day. We've always had that after the pledge and then announcements. Students can always say a prayer if they wish during school. It's not taken out but to where it's not disruptive. I remember during school sometimes getting there around 6:50am est and I would see kids outside around the flag holding hands and saying a prayer. It was before school officially started and nobody ever gave any trouble. So to say prayer is out of schools is a total lie.

[Horse with no Name]

26. I attended school in the late 60's,70's..graduated in 81

I attended school in Arizona until my sophomore year of high school.
I remember in my first grade class circa 1968 we sang "Buenos Dias, Buenos Dias, Good morning to you, Buenos Dias, Buenos Dias and how do you do?
Loved that song. Then we sang America the beautiful and said the Pledge.
After that I don't remember anything special except the pledge--until I moved to Texas my sophomore year.
Every morning someone gave the invocation. Our teams in Texas always said The Lord's Prayer before all sporting games, and we also had a prayer somewhere else, but I can't remember where.
I don't remember saying the Pledge of Allegiance as much in Texas as we did in Arizona, but I remember there was a heck of alot of prayer.