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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:05 AM
Original message
a war with the religious right is coming, cause that's what they want
a nation of true believers is what they want, and they don't want you non believers around at all. of course, we can't allow that, but that won't stop the coming major confrontation with the religious, righteous zealots.

deny it at your peril.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. it is what they want
the question -- do their corporate lords and masters want the same?
or does it make any difference to them?
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
29. Anyone have "God's Army" where you live?
I don't know what teaching that it comes from but I've seen little kids come into my work with "God's Army" t-shirts on and it totally creeps me out.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #29
50. They are part of the Christian
Identity movement. They are sort of dissolving/merging into the other hate groups now like the Aryans and the neonazis. Some are going mainstream into the Bush administation/Republican leadership cheerleading parties. Some you see pop up on on Fox News, assuming you can bare to monitor that hate group unto itself.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. I wish I had the best strategy already.
I have been thinking that for a long time now. It seems that our Christian community would be the best ace in the hole, but many of them don't seem to believe that. I wish I knew how to talk to them and inspire them to rally without stirring up my old pains and getting into a fight with the wrong bunch of people. I'm just too close to the old pains to be able to cope with the religion at all. I was raised around the Christian Identity bunch (like Eric Rudolph) and live amidst them now. If we ever do really have a literal second civil war in this country and it comes time to really fight, I want to enlist firmly on the left side. I don't have any military training, but I could spy if nothing else. I know how they operate. I just don't have enough psychology training to be able to counteract them. I should write a book on their methods of destroying people. I'm one prime example of how they do it.
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Could you post about their tactics?
Those of us who *do* have the psychology background might find something useful in it...

Tucker
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Having grown up in a fundamentalist church, I think that the tactics
they use are pretty much the same as those used by most cults. Isolation of people who feel left out of the greater society, identification with a set of rules and beliefs designed to help the person modulate his/her behavior, promotion of that particular set of beliefs as superior and the only way, encouragement to prosyletize others. Fundamentalist Christians also encourage the belief that they are persecuted for their beliefs. I've been in an number of these churches in my lifetime and have observed that the membership is largely made up of people given to excess. The excesses (alcohol, sex, drugs, gluttony, etc.)from the outside world are released within the church through the catharsis of excessively emotional religious demonstrations and extascies (sp?). They are the fundamentalists version of self-flagellation and mediation. I joined the Methodists as an adult, but as a child and teenager, witnessed that many of the congregants that I knew indulged potentially every vice under the sun only to turn and point their fingers at others and bellow hellfire and damnation to others for the same sins. I walked out of those churches on my 18th birthday and only entered one recently for the funeral of a family member.
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megatherium Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #12
35. I think you're right, I've been to the local megachurch.
Its membership is largely all the kids we knew in high school in the 70s who drank and partied. Now they've grown up, they have responsibilities, families and anxieties. The megachurch gives them glossy high-quality production values, and a message that concentrates on personal behavior and personal salvation. Many of the congregants are there to be better people, to live healthy, wholesome lives for their families.

Underneath, there's a great deal of paranoia: the full-service Christian bookstore on the premises that stocks all the insane Bible prophecy books that say we're in the end times, and books that explain how the homosexuals and feminists are ruining America and exposing the country to God's wrath.

There's also a huge amount of partisan politics. The congregation is a resource to be harvested by the Republican Party. They are given very direct messages as to how they are to vote to be good Christians. The pastor will never say who to vote for at the pulpit, of course (to protect their tax-exempt status), but voter guides are distributed to remind everyone which candidates are pro-life and anti-gay marriage. The megachurch I'm talking about has 18,000 members. In October of 2004, they had a three-sermon series on marriage. They also put billboards all over town proclaiming One Man One Woman God's Plan For Marriage. This is in Kentucky, which had an anti-gay marriage ballot measure -- which passed 75% to 25%.
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inchhigh Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #12
42. The Heart of the Matter
"Fundamentalist Christians also encourage the belief that they are persecuted for their beliefs. I've been in an number of these churches in my lifetime and have observed that the membership is largely made up of people given to excess."

I really think these two points sum it all up. They think they are being persecuted for their beliefs when I think they are really persecuting each other because of this desire to go to the extreme. I have some big-time right-wing friends who were buddies in college before their "rebirthings". They were all much bigger drunks than me back then. They can't figure out why I haven't followed them on the true path. I keep saying, "Look, I didn't end up where you are because I was never as messed up as you in the first place". Every time they beg me to "see the light" I flash back to this night in front of the Albatross Bar when they were all broke and drunk and begging me to come in and buy them another round.

Now they're all cleaner, and they smell better, but they really haven't changed a bit.
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #42
57. Substituting one addiction for another eh?
I saw that a lot when I was an ARC counselor. People would successfully put the bottle down, however, the base of their addiction was still there, without the alcohol to anesthetize it. They would still have that gnawing, empty feeling inside, and instead of digging deep to the base of it, and facing it, they would turn to something like extreme fundamental religious beliefs to "ease their pain".

And you have hit it on the head, they cleaned up a little, but inside they are still the same addicted individuals they always were.
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Spangle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #57
70. Bingo! IT's like the College PARTY days
As a "grown up", how can you get that "brotherhood/sisterhood" feeling. Hanging out with the guys/gals, etc.

Being Grown up, you have responsiblitys. Going to church would fall under "responsiblity" and that bonding feeling we naturaly want to have.

Going to the bar, same thing. Hanging out with the "buds". Those that "understand", etc. Replacing one issue with another.... Sounds about right
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
37. I'd like to know too. Have some friends and relatives that are clueless.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #37
43. Again I refer you to the SPLC
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 08:26 AM by Jamastiene
web site. The hate groups and people involved that are listed on there are the most violent and most notorious/famous people in that movement. They are the head of the monster. Many people may not be directly involved in the movement but they share the sentiment and will actively work toward "one man's effort" to say put creationism in the classroom. What they don't realize is that the "one man" has been funded, trained, supported financially and told step by step how to get that agenda rolling. They pick areas that are impoverished and uneducated. Usually, these are the same areas where many people have worked way too hard for way too little their whole life and don't know who else to blame. They tie the "creationism" in the classroom idea in with a message usually in the local paper saying something to the effect of "if you support our heroic efforts to put God back in the schools, contact us here to join our efforts". The groups the person contacts will be a front group set up to collect money and supporters. They will pick the most ardents supporters of the current agenda and offer them a chance to "do more". That person will have their ego pumped by several members of the hate group and it will suck them in to the hate group. If someone is telling a person they are heroic and a true "Christian" and constantly giving that person an ego buzz, they are already in over their head and over half way to being brainwashed and too stupid or buzzed, not sure which, to realize it. There will be weapons "collectors" around many of these types of activities too as a sort of side conversation. That's where they find the likely "lone wolf" types like Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh. That special sort of person who is usually the quiet type who gets sucked in in a different way. They usually show up but aren't as vocal as the others. Those are the ones quietly taken aside by the leaders of the hate groups. They have the skill to bring out that person just to a key/select small crowd who are in place to drop hints about how they could be the best hero. They will in a side handed wat find out what this one person's biggest gripe is. They will point out a local person who is on the other side of the issue they are fighting for as a commie pinko liberal as a sort of test. If the person seems gung ho to commit acts of violence, then they have their man. Usually, they will hold that person back from overtly committing the acts of violence toward local people, but they will foster the mentality that something big oughta happen to people like that person. It is pretty involved. Comments are made that someone should do something "big" one day to teach our "godless" government a lesson. It's just a seed, but if they have already fertilized the person's mind with dreams of becoming a legend in the movement, they've got their next lone wolf. As a matter of fact the movie I mentioned in my post to AlienGirl about Morris Dees points out that Morris Dees proved the point in a court of law that this is EXACTLY how they operate.

I have already written a book again. I'm sorry for the long post, but I wanted to point out the small subtle things that they do the best way I could. I sometimes have trouble expressing my point, but I try the best I can. There is way more that they do, but I would literally have to write a book to explain even half of it. I would recommend some serious reading on the Southern Poverty Law Center's web site about the movements of these hate groups and how they have been tied in to a lot of churches and how even some US Senators (Trent Lott for one) and others in the higher levels of our government speak at luncheons organized by some of these same people and even have direct ties to convicted felons who are arms/weapons laws violators and even armored truck robbers. It's how many of them are funded. If there was a way to break up the right wing, the hate groups who seem like the sensationalized minority, will HAVE to be curbed. It is their influence that is really controlling our country right now. I'm sure of it.

Here's a link to an article that explains how they have infiltrated our education system to gain further control and access to more young minds to corrupt, control, brainwash, and use.
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?...

If read the Intelligence Report, you can get way more information on names, events, places, faces, and other specific facts, that I sometimes can't remember. I just remember the bigger picture and work my ass off to fight their influence as hard as I can. I don't want to get sucked in like my ex friend did.
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IntravenousDemilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #43
67. I wonder what would happen if...
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 12:09 PM by IntravenousDemilo
...someone were to simply state that religion can be allowed in the classroom just as soon as churches are required both to post the Periodic Table of Elements over the altar and to preach both creationism and evolution from the pulpit with equal vigour? Other than that, there's a place for everything, and everything in its place.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. ...and pay taxes!
You know they don't want to do that!

I'd probably pass out in a dead faint if I knew how much some of these churches bring in.
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IntravenousDemilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Oh, yes, and DEFINITELY pay taxes!
There is a lot of money in "seeing the light", as my agnostic/atheist parents (it was a mixed marriage) always used to tell me.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
39. Skidmore nailed it.
They do it just like Skidmore described in answer to your post. Also, they organize and coordinate their efforts to one specific goal at a time in small towns where overall sentiment supports their viewpoints. Once they get that one goal accomplished, they build on it from there. Anyone who opposes their efforts or points out that they have ties to violence and extremism will get crushed in their path. They start "civic groups" and other types of local get togethers to recruit old timer racist, sexism, extremely homophobic types and they have "Christian" concerts to draw in as many of the young people as they can and here in my town, they do have a majority of them involved in their activities. If you ever get a chance to watch the movie, "In The Line Of Fire: The Morris Dees Story", it'll give you a basic grasp of how they operate. All you need to do is study KKK and church activities and ties from the civil rights movement of the 60's to get a feel for how they control a local populace through the churches. The KKK used to actually gallop up to church services on horses way back when and they were directly handed the money in the collection plates willingly in many areas.

Also, they will marginalize anyone who opposes their stranglehold on local government in a coordinated effort that would rival the best of military strategies. For instance, in my town, there may be people who are less aggressive normally, but they experience a setback of some sort. They recruiters for these groups will prey on that and drop a few racist or homophic talking points just at the time when the person is experiencing problems. They will do things like invite them to dinner and offer pamphlets and other lierature explaining how the "mud people" are the cause of everything that is wrong in the world basically. There is one racist book that was handed to an ex-friend of mine (who bought into the lies and became unbearable to be around) at the guitar store where I worked a few years ago by an ex police officer who was a part owner in the store called "The Color Of Crime". It skews FBI statistics to make it seem that basically all crime is committed by nonwhites and that nonwhites are always the vicims of those crimes committed. This ex friend of mine was then offered more literature from the same racist publishing company and took it to my bewilderment. After she had first moved here and I warned her about how those groups work, she still took the bait and let herself be led into that line of thinking. Nothing I could say to her or point out to her would work. She decided to go that way and started heavily going to the church that the ex police officer recommended. She now takes her children to this church weekly and is very active in that movement and will not believe it if you try to tell her what she's involved in. She's "turned her life to God" now and won't be told otherwise. Here she is blindly following a group of people who would have me killed if they had half a chance and she still doesn't recognize them for what they really are.

These are just some of the things I have personally witnessed. These people will stop at nothing. Laws are routinely bent, shaped, molded, broken, ignored or dragged out of the ancient law books to suit their needs for what they are trying to accomplish at the moment. They have a long term agenda to destroy everyone who disagrees with them. If you try to point out to them that not all liberals are "Hollywood" liberals and that some exist right here among them, they do things like call you a "cultural isolate" which is what one psychology teacher has called me. She sees me as the problem when the majority of the people around here are people who condone what Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh did. Says I need to change to suit their belief system. I got news for her.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. little timmy and terry terrorist
one day my fundie mother praised the man who shot the women's clinic doctor, and called him the lord's warrior.

i went off on my mother, so, so bad. for half an hour i screamed at her, and her tears didn't sway me. she had to hear me after making such a comment. the best she can come up with these days is an occassional 'praise the lord'. she discusses her beliefs around me at her peril.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #41
47. Sadly
while she may not discuss it around you any more, she may be cancelling your vote at the polls and fueling more of this right wing bullshit. Not all supporters of that movement are the Timothy McVeighs or the Eric Rudolpha, but they can do more damage by taking over and running the country into the ground. Not all of their methods are violent and the violence isn't always the worst thing they can manage to do. They learned from the McVeigh/Rudolph type experiences. They learned from the foot in mouth mistakes of people like Trent Lott too. Now they are using a softer approach through outlets like Fox News that is the most dangerous method yet. It controls people's minds and draws people into their way of thinking without the person realizing what's happening.
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. We have a whole group next door.
We do not see them or do they really get after any one as they are busy shooting off guns all the time. I wonder if this is not like the wife that watchers her husband put his fist and foot through the door and wall for years and the wife is not to fear him? Congress on the Dem side already fear the right. Look who voted right after 911 and what for.
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jukes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. act like a good boy.
don't try to reason or modify these folks; it's impossible.

burrow in, make some non-internet communication lines w/ solid lefties & prepare to feed the resistance data on numbers, locations, leaders, equipment pools, etc.

IMO, that's the best strategic contribution you can make, since you're already inside.

the stress factor is very high, though. if you think you're in emotional danger, break off, contact a deprogrammer or anti-cult help group & fight a different battle on another day.
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
30. Yeah, I can relate to your situation
I live near the church I grew up with. I quit going years ago, but I still get pressured to come back. Relating to them in any way, shuts me down emotionally.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #30
49. It's how they control people
and once you have broken free, your own mind can protect you from them by reacting to them that way. It's something you have to have experienced to understand. People who've never experienced it cannot grasp what we are saying a lot of times. They don't seem to know how serious it is for us.
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. They're amping up as of late...
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 05:19 AM by Cooley Hurd
The Schiavo mess laid it all bare - the Christian coalitions are coordinating their efforts and aiming with the accuracy of a laser beam.

We have much to fear in the coming three years - they're playing to win. :scared:
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wildmanj Donating Member (611 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:19 AM
Response to Original message
4. the religious right
is a tool used by capitalist and internationalist to keep the masses in line---herd the masses into religious fervor while those chosen pick the FRUIT FROM THE VINE :bounce:
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:24 AM
Response to Original message
5. Exactly what are their numbers? How big of a group are we talking about
here? I was raised Christian and have not been a practicing one in many years. I know lots of people like me. I also know lots of people who are not Christian--of any stripe, who embrace other belief systems.

Somehow, I think their fervent screaming perhaps hides the fact that their numbers may really be small. They just happen to have gotten people into positions of power and influence now.

Does anyone know for sure if my suspicions may have merit? Where does one go to begin to research this?
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. the ARE a minority
but they seem to have more power and influence than most small minorities. and they are very loud and noisy, so their numbers haven't reached the alarming state yet. but they are a real threat, taking timmy mcveigh as an example.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Is there a way to demonstrate this with real numbers though?
If they are not addressed as a minority extremist group, instead of a perceived majority, then their beliefs are given currency and opportunity to spread. This is exactly how extremist Islamic factions took hold in Iran during the 1970s. Then they started "educating" the young after they exterminated a large segment of the older generation. I fear we are headed down the same road.
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Freedom_from_Chains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #6
22. Let us not forget.
It was a minority, which launched the American Revolution.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
53. Here is a link to a site that gathers intelligence on those groups.
I know I post this link over and over again, but it's fact based. You can take it to the bank for accuracy. They work with the non right wing sector of police forces, the FBI, and even take some of the more violent groups to court.

http://www.splcenter.org
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #53
62. Jamastiene--does the group in your area have a radio station?
I know of a group that moved into a county that almost immediately
started a radio station that can only be heard within the county.
I've also heard reports of lots of new non-denominational little churches
springing up in the same county.

Any of this sound familiar?
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-05 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #62
84. Yes
Only here they don't need to start up a radio station. The local Christian radio station will let them spread their hatred willingly enough. And yes, there are tons of new nondenominational churches springing up here. I'd say in the last 5 years, we went from having maybe 12 churches in this county, to having around 100 by the last estimate. I'd say some of the new churches are the Spanish speaking churches for migrant Mexicans, but the vast majority are offshoots of the hellfire and brimstone variety that are open to the extreme right wing views and hate messages.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. delete
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 05:27 AM by mopaul
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Freedom_from_Chains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. How big is Christian Right
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Thanks for the link.
I'll read it later tonight more thoroughly.
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BR_Parkway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. The Polls make it look much bigger, some 80+% self identify as Christian
when asked in the various polls, the extreme wingnutz take that to mean that almost everyone in the country supports what they do. The politicians scrape and cater to their shrill cries because they think that there is a huge voting bloc behind them.

Pinellas FL should have shown our representatives just how little support these nutcases have - contrast the few, but loud and obnoxious "made for TV" protestors who got the constant face time on CNN, FAUX, ad nauseum with the huge percentage of people who didn't think the gov't should be meddling.

There are alot of people on the membership rolls at the country's churches who only show up on Sunday morning because their local society expects them to, but don't go along with alot of this other religious stuff as soon as their butt clears the door after the service. And here in the south, there's a sizable chunk of younger males in the pews strictly for the reason of being able to play on the church softball teams - it's almost the cult that high school football has obtained in Texas.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #16
44. However, only half of that 80% are nut jobs.
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megatherium Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #5
32. I think something like 40 to 60 million Americans
can be called fundamentalist or pentacostalist evangelicals. Most Americans profess a belief in Jesus, but only a fraction go to church every weekend (and many of these are Roman Catholic or mainline Protestant, and not sympathetic to the evangelical right).
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #5
46. It's not all Christians.
The ones who are pushing the right wing agenda so hard use Christianity as a tool. There are liberal Christians, some of our people who wouldn't hurt us. There are moderate Christians, some of whom we should fear. But then there are conservative Christians who cannot be told the truth because they refuse to believe it. That is, that they are supporting groups like the KKK with their tithes. There are underlying forces at work with Christianity as an cloak to hide the hate groups who are leeching by forming all sorts of nonprofit organizations to collect money. Cloaking that hate group mentality using Christianity provides their pass into the mainstream and into our government, schools, and any other power center you can imagine. They really are an invisible empire at work. They can be stopped, but people like me who live amidst them need more education when it comes to laws and psychology to be able to fight them. I need all the legal advice I can get. I believe I can take a couple key individuals to trial if I can learn enough about the laws and what evidence is accepted and how to obtain the evidence of what is happening all around me. There's a lot of bad stuff that happens right before my eyes on a daily basis that I can't seem to get anything done about. Again, I refer again to the SPLC and point out that it is the silent nonviolent but ardent support of the beliefs and actions of hate groups that is feeding this whole thing. Not everyone has to be a Timothy McVeigh or an Eric Rudolph to be very dangerous and very influential. Find a way to take away that influence and fight the arms dealing, animal fighting, meth labs, and other illegal activities they financially support themselves with and their influence can be broken. Here is a link you might find interesting.
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?...
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Celeborn Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #46
66. I think even many conservative Christians
aren't as nuts as the Falwell and the Schiavo crowd.
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LisaLynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
72. I believe they are the minority ...
but they do have a lot of political power that is far greater than their numbers. What I'm afraid of is that they will be able to wrap themselves so firmly in Christianity and the bible, which the majority of the people in this country consider good things, that they will be able to seize even more power before people realize what they're actually getting at.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you asked Americans if they wanted to live in a Christian Theocracy and spelled out exactly what that would look like -- what these people really want -- they would by an astounding majority reject it. However, if you asked them if Christian values are a good way to live and if they should be used in government to make life better for all of us, they would agree.

I have said again and again that my grandmother who is a firm Democrat and can not stand * would not listen to me for the longest time that * calls himself a Christian and gets a lot of votes because of it. She kept saying that people should be more Christian so we wouldn't invade Iraq. Well, that's not how *'s Christians see it and it was extremely difficult to convince her of that. To her, being Christian is helping the poor, not fighting wars, all that good stuff. I'm afraid there are a lot of people like her out there whose knee-jerk reaction to "christian" is positive. I'm afraid if there are enough of them, they would hand over control to the sorts of people we are talking about and not realize their version of Christianity is much different and isn't about spirituality as much as it is about controlling people.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
11. I agree.
Not only do they want people to "believe," they want people to believe and behave exactle as they do. Thus said, liberal Christians, Muslims, Jews, Pagans, Native Americans, and New Agers share a common ground with Atheists. There is no parent in the United States who is more opposed to religion in public schools than me. None. I'll teach my children about religion at home, in church, in a sweat lodge, and in nature. And part of what I will teach them is that the far-right religous republicans are emotionally disturbed people, who do not experience the true goodness of God.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. The numbers are not as relevant as one may suppose.
In any movement it is usually a hard core membership that drives the agenda. These folk happen to have some powerful and rich leaders that are spurring them onwith influence in the circles of Corp. and Govt. power and they have millions of $$$ to drive the agenda. When people believe that assasinating abortion doctors is perfectly the right thing to do can it be a far reach that they would move on to other violent acts? Zealots usually believe in the ends justifies the means and with relgious Zealots they rationalize whatever evil they do to further their beliefs.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. I believe that some factual tidbit to get out there could help the false
perception that this type of zealot is "mainstream" would be helpful. True those extremists will believe what they will. But there is a false perception being perpetuated through the media (owned or managed by some fundamentalists). People are constantly bombarded with the notion that such extreme beliefs are held by the "majority" of Americans by the bloviators which speak for the group. It is shaping public opinion right now. Somehow people have be given the chance to understand that the nagging doubts they may be experiencing over what they are told are held by many more others than those who espouse them.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. Yes, both of these posts
are correct. And the important points raised are certainly in our favor. Yet I think we must keep in mind that many social and cultural movements are a result of a small group, such as theirs, that has access to power. That access can take many forms, and I believe that the religious right has several access routes. One of the most important is the Supreme Court; in the next three years, we must make sure they are not allowed to stack the court. But that is just the "top" level: the extreme right has done a far better job than the liberal left at getting representatives on school boards and town/city boards.

A group does not have to be large to accomplish large goals. It merely has to be organized, and aware of how the game is played. If 1/2 of DU were to coordinae efforts, we could have as significant an affect on our culture as the religious right.
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #14
40. That sounds just like bush's* rational for the war.
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 08:09 AM by Auntie Bush
"Zealots usually believe in the ends justifies the means and with relgious Zealots they rationalize whatever evil they do to further their beliefs." Like we went to war in Iraq to bring them FREEDOM. YEAH!!!!
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Richard D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
68. Damn powerful picture
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:51 AM
Response to Original message
18. Would you consider the religious right a terrorist group?
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. certain factions of it are for sure
little conclaves are scattered all over the country, right next door, right under your nose. i know of several in my little sector of the midwest, they own complexes in the woods just like the branch davidiots, heavily armed, amping up the paranoia, and preparing for the day when they get to bring on the rapture and be vindicated.

i ain't kiddin'
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #20
48. >amping up the paranoia
Something you know a lot about?
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #20
52. I hear ya.
I bet if you know the activities of just one of them, you can follow them all the way through several churches through ties/acquaintences and maybe even into your local government. They are some truly sick disgusting people. They are getting scarier to me by going mainstream with a softer more subtle form of their hate, teaching eugenics, and all sorts of scary shit. I'd love to be part of a resistance to bring those groups down.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #18
36. I would. Most of them are
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 07:27 AM by Jamastiene
in bed with groups like the KKK, Aryan Nations, neonazis, and other groups prone to violent acts. The Christian Identity belief system is the most widespread type of Christianity in my area and in my experience. They definitely are NOT a minority in my area. If you look around on the Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Project web site, it'll give you some idea of what they are up to and how they operate. It explains in detail just how they operate, things like how the churches offered to hide Eric Rudolph and praised him and helped him and if you ever wanted to know just how the recent wave of teaching creationism in the classrooms at public schools got started. They share goals with others like the neonazis and work together from time to time to get their latest hate filled agenda rolling. These groups have members who shift membership and change and move around from one group to another so often that it makes them very hard to track.

Here is a link to a definition and more details.
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp?T=11&m=2

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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:56 AM
Response to Original message
21. They don't want true believers as much as
sheep who will follow them. The leaders of the right wing religions are in it for power, not for spiritual enlightenment, which brings freedom for the individual, not tyrrany and oppression by a ruling class.
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ElectricIron Sweeney Donating Member (130 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:10 AM
Response to Original message
23. A short war
where they have all the guns.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:16 AM
Response to Original message
24. I think we should refer to these zealots as "THE AMERICAN TALIBAN"
because THAT is what they are. There's no difference between the religious RW wacko nut jobs and the Afghanistan Taliban. None.

STOP THE AMERICAN TALIBAN, THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT We need to turn this back on them.

I NEED a bumper sticker that says that!
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megatherium Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. People used to call them that, but after 9/11
people stopped calling them that (under the theory "we're all Americans").
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. OK...How about "CHRISTIAN COALITION TALIBAN?"
I like that too. That separates THEM from US.



"REPUBLICAN RELIGIOUS TALIBAN?"

"MORAL MAJORITY TALIBAN?"

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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
73. Satan's Bush Monkeys
My pet name for them.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-05 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #24
86. Tali-born-agains
My personal favorite. :-)
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:33 AM
Response to Original message
26. Karl Christian Rove's plan is to divide and conquer
within. He and the party WANT us hating one another; neighbor against neighbor, father against son, husband against wife etc. They planned that the climate in the country should be as poisonous and partisan as possible. Compromise is their enemy because it means sharing power. It means giving their opposition credibility and legitimacy. The only method that ensures victory is to mischaracterize and demonize every opposing view.

And he is succeeding.

Apparently though, someone forgot to give him the memo that a house divided among itself cannot stand.

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catzies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #26
69. That is absolutely true. Wedge issues keep us fighting each other
and not uniting against them.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. True, but on the bigger stuff, everyone is agreeing
that judges should stay out of personal life decisions. That Tom Delay has stepped over the line. That Social Security should not be privatized. That we need to start bringing home troops. That we must address the deficit in meaningful way (end the tax cuts)

What Rove is doing isn't so much planting wedge issues, they come up naturally. What he's done is much more insidious: he's managed to, in spite of all the above, make us despise our opposition -- to see them not as human but to dehumanize like we do the terrorists -- as if they are no longer deserved of any modicum of repect, they're unredeemable. Poison prevents dialogue. He loves every minute of dems bickering amongst themselves, but that's a byproduct of his agenda: that dems and repubs absolutely despise one another. Look at our language; "repukes" and "rethugs" and "neocons" and "liberal left" and "leftbehinders" and "gay loving baby killers" (or whatever it is they call us)

What's really really frightening though, is that although we are together on important issues, he and the rest act as though we aren't. Just today Delay is behaving as though it's the dems and the newspapers that are the problem, completely ignoring that an overwhelming majority believe he's UNETHICAL and deserved of some form of punishment.


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AVID Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:34 AM
Response to Original message
27. it is already here
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:40 AM
Response to Original message
28. I shall go to my burning stake with pride
but not quietly. pagans love peace but our passions get in the way of pure pacifism occasionally.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
31. I don't know if there will be a major confrontation at all
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 07:10 AM by Malva Zebrina
Churches have become an activist political movement. They are organized and the extremist wing has been at it for thirty years and building, both with money and with power. They did it right under the nose of those who were unaware and would not have agreed

In the last election we heard of political preaching from the pulpit,religious lobbies, post cards distributed in the church to mail out to convince others of the right candidate to vote for and fliers being put on windshields of all the cars in the church parking lot advocating a certain candidate of the church's choosing. This is an aggressive new stage taking place, to be added to all gone before it. Then, there are the billions of dollars being granted to churches on the whim of Bush. A church is already organised and is a natural--and willing and able to preach for the candidate they choose, as god tells them which candidate he wants.

I often wonder, since I have heard many state that although the organisation has a certain policy, they as individuals, do not suscribe to all, if, for instance, their church was distributing post cards and fliers and the like, if they had ever thought of forming a group within that church, that would distribute post cards and such for the opposite candidate and put fliers on windshields in the church parking lot for the opposite candidate. I suspect that little exercise in democracy would never happen on the land occupied by that church. It is quite obviously not land dedicated to the principles of democracy and I have not heard of anything of the sort going on--no rebellian from within--no presentation of another candidate, and I think I can figure out why.
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Mr.Green93 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
38. Islam will crush
the Xtians.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #38
60. Well golly, that's a relief!!!
There will still be no gay-marriage. Adultery will be punished by stoning. Homosexuality by beheadings. Freedom of religion for none. Women in burkhas, and...gasp...NO ABORTIONS!!!!!! Nooooooooo.

There's a slogan I see all the time "Islam is the solution". To which I say, if Islam is the solution, then what the HELL is the problem?

The fundie Christians may be bad; the fundie Muslims are much, much worse. None of our progressive positions will flower under Islam. None.

I make no denigration of the vast majority of Muslims who only want to live peacefully with their fellow human beings, and not wage jihad or impose Sharia upon those who disagree with their beliefs.
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Extend a Hand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
45. I think it would be worthwile
as a strategy, to study and attempt to categorize different types in the religious right.


The people described below in the article "Jesus is her homeboy..."
are different than say the protestors outside of the Terri Schiavo nursing home.
http://smirkingchimp.com/article.php?sid=20494

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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
51. It won't be long until some of us need our own Isreal
or something like it. I believe you're spot on with your comments.

As to how they do/have done it...yes, it is analagous to a cult. But they have evolved to the point that all one needs to looks at is the same methods of schooling (i.e. fundamentalist indroctination) as Wahabism (sp)...you know, the one that cultivates hatred of America. That's where we are now when we have children running around with t-shirts announcing "God's Army". The underlying militancy is undeniable with these type of declarations.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
54. Maybe they'll all leave and find a new land...like they did 400 yrs ago.
Either that or that ridiculous notion of a "Rapture" will actually occur and we'll be free of them!
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
55. A war is inevitable only when both parties agree to fight.
We have to find a way to coexist, in order to survive. Black/white thinking only serves to define self and divide/take up sides.

I prefer the diplomatic route. As one who stands in the middle, I am prepared to serve in that role.

That being said, I will need the support of all of you - not just the Christians, but also the agnostics and atheists. Perhaps the extremists cannot be reached. However, I think some of the fundamentalists CAN be reached - or we can at least begin a dialog.

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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #55
58. Have you ever tried to use diplomacy with a true
fundie, dominionist to explain or deal with liberal values?

I mean after their heads pop from rage, their upper brain functions shut down and they either turn into a hellfire and brimstone holy roller or into some pseudo-pathological, channeling-the-spirit, and speak in gibberish (they call it speaking in tongues. bwahahahaha), and quote random Bible versus. Its freakin creepy man.

And you want me to be diplomatic with someone would willingly wish me dead, if not take matters into their own hands for my beliefs.

If you wanna try... be my guest. I wish you the best of luck!
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. No, not with "liberal values." That is too polarizing for them.
I begin with "Christian values" and go from there.

Common ground is the name of the game.
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #59
63. Yeah, I just don't like the idea of negotiating with those
would would rather me be dead.

:shrug:
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #63
65. I would never suggest that you try.
All I was saying was that if ever a way could be found, I'm in a position to try to do something about it. I might end up dead, too... but I would hope that my DU brothers and sisters would be supportive of my attempts.
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solinvictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #59
79. There is no room for negotiation...
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 05:38 PM by solinvictus
They hate us, vilify us with every speech, and heap vituperation on us with abandon. Why would they negotiate with us, believing as they do that we embody the evils of the world? It could compromise their "faith" to do so.
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goodboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
56. the Christian Taliban. It's another crusade! (nt)
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
61. Wait till "Faith Based Initiatives" funding dies under a sane president.
Then the true spirit of the average American Christian will come to the surface.

They are being financed with 20 Billion dollars this year, and they expect to fund it with more next year.

This is about the only Federal program that has more funding available than they have people to spend it.

Stop this cash flow, and you will be getting between a real dog and its meat.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
64. Not a war. Kristallnacht II: The Liberals....starring John Negroponte
Head of US Secret Police.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
71. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NervousRex Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
76. Good...
without science, they will be throwing stones at our anti-grav tanks and disintegtator rays.
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Dave Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
78. They can bring it,
no fuggin problem.

After we have a discussion about their savior, we will then discuss my hemorrhoids and irritable bowel.

Or punch them in the nuts.
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Mr. Flibble Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
80. Believers in a religion that says killing and being greedy is wrong, yet
they flaunt and openly act and support the killers and greedy?!?! They are no believers of any sort!!! They are the opposite of the religion they proclaim.

How the frick can ~45% of this country still like the fundamentally hypocritical devolutionary?
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solinvictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
81. Here's the Boy Scout checklist for coming times:
1) guns, ammunition, and some spare parts
2) canned and dry goods
3) basic first aid supplies
4) water stores
5) a decent short wave radio

It's getting more interesting by the day, folks.
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tinonedown Donating Member (329 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
82. The anti-Christian bigots worry me more
They seem more vigilant to destroy freedom of religion by eliminating all of it. And they are starting with Christianity.

21st century church burners have a new face.

Martin Luther King speeches are great works...to be admired.
Publish one now without his name attached and the 'author' would be labeled a religious right Christian zealot.
Deny that and risk being laughed out of the reality room.
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solinvictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. ?
I don't follow, are you saying the Fundamentalists are the victims here?
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-05 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #82
85. That's totally at odds with reality.
You'd never hear any "religious right wing Christian zealot" talk about equal rights for all people, like Martin Luther King did. I don't get what your meaning is on that one at all.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-05 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #82
87. Sorry, you've fallen victim to propaganda.
The Dominionists/Christian Reconstructionists/Theonomists (whatever) have been waging a campaign to prove that Christianity is under attack. Actually, it is: real Christian values are being subverted & used to gain political power.

Have you read "Persecution: How Liberals are Waging War Against Christians" by David Limbaugh? A donation of only $28.00 will put it in your shopping cart.

www.family.org/resources/itempg.cfm?itemid=4482

Lots more to support your views at the site. But it probably is not new to you.

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SweetLeftFoot Donating Member (905 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-05 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
88. They wouldn't be so scary
if they weren't so keen on guns.
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