If fraud was commited in the '04 election, how and where was it done?

[fujiyama]

Alright, I see this topic popping up more frequently and I've always kept an open mind about the subject. I certainly can't say I trust Diebold technology and the corporations that own the voting machines. I dislike the idea of elections being controlled by state party hacks and very vocal GOP donating/supporting corporations. I wouldn't doubt for a second that the GOP wouldn't try their best to steal an election. After all, they did once in '00.

My own view is simple: the vote in Ohio was obviously not completely or not nearly free and fair. There were long lines, not enough machines, and several reported incidents of harrasement and intimidation. In some precincts I recall there were more votes counted than there are people there. Another odd thing is that the discrepencies almost always were favorable for Bush and the pukes.

The question is, even with the discrepencies, were there enough votes to offset a 130k margin of "victory" in OH?.

I also recall hearing strange incidents of the candidate switching on electronic touch screen machines in NV and NM. I'm not too familiar with all the incidents though.


The problem though is many try proving fraud with exit polls alone. Exit polls, contrary to popular opinion among many here on DU are NOT fool proof. In '88, they predicted a possible Dukakis win. The end result was a Bush victory by several points.

So please give me a few good links for actual incidents and strange number discrepencies. Someone mentioned that in all the places the exit polls were off from the actual numbers, it occured in precincts with electronic voting.

But please don't tell me that the exit polls in and of themselves prove a stolen election. It's not quite enough.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. I'm with you, there is a whole board dedicated to it

to the statistics, to all of it...

People need to do their homework at this point...

And if they have dobuts today, I doubt any evidence, even George admiting to it to a grand Jury, will convince them otherwise.

(Yes george adminting it to a grand jury is dreaming, but the mental is a good one)

[Hapameli]

3. Just watch "VoterGate" online at www.votergate.tv

Its a great movie, will be having a VoterGate 2 coming out in the summer with some new evidence. You can watch for free, its a great public service these filmmakers have given to us.

Also check out "Electile Dysfunction" (www.electile-dysfunctionmovie.com )

There's also some other films... its late I can't think of the rest, though.

[FreedomAngel82]

35. The link in your post didn't work

:(

[The Doctor.]

4. Ohfercryin'outloud... here:

http://memes.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=3667&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

http://bushandcheneysuck.com/vote-fraud-2004.htm

http://vevo.verifiedvoting.org/verifier/

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/121604Z.shtml

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0411/S00036.htm

http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/002324.php

http://www.ilcaonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=950&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

http://www.legjoints.com/AmericanElectionFraud/

http://www.chuckherrin.com/hackthevote.htm

http://www.betterworldlinks.org/book109h.htm

Start with those.

[fujiyama]

8. Thank you for the links

I knew the question would be seen as an annoyance to some, but the reason I didn't want to ask this in the other forum was simple - as much as I liked TIA's enthusiasm, I always found exit poll analysis by itself weak and TIA tended to stick to a certain line and not budge.

Anyways, thank you.

[annabanana]

9. not to forget the all important::

[The Doctor.]

33. Say, If you do read this...

My apologies for snapping at you in an earlier post.

That is generally very unlike me to behave so badly.

(my first deleted post out of nearly 2000 to boot!)

I had been getting quite fed up with having election fraud points nitpicked - not because of factual corrections, I have no problem with that, but because people seem to think that if a few facts don't line up - then the whole theory should be trashed.

Those that wish to convince others to doubt that fraud took place are being counterproductive.

While we should frame the issue as a 'voting rights and access issue', we cannot ignore the widespread and insidious intent to disfranchise mostly Democratic populations.

This issue is systemic, and there are bound to be weaknesses in the case for widespread fraud.

Many have made the case that we will not get anything done if we who know of this appear overzealous and use terms like 'fraud' and 'conspiracy'.

But the problem is that to fail to recognize that there is systemic intention to commit fraud is to be doomed to erroneous and useless actions.

Again, My apologies for my outburst.

[fujiyama]

34. No problem

We all snap at times. I took no offense at your earlier post and didn't alert you in case you were wondering.

I understand the frustration and it may be said a thread on something that has been discussed repeatedly was at the least, somewhat redundant.

[ariellyn]

5. Why not read ALL the information that's been posted already????? n/t

[magellan]

6. Me too, good Dr. Eldritch

Fujiyama, if you want the evidence then search the DU archives going back to right after the election; study the amassed links and data. Or go to Congressman John Conyer's website and see what HE'S investigating, and why.

The discrepancies and fiddles are all there for anyone who honestly wants to educate themselves. No rehash is necessary. With respect, convince yourself...or not.

[stellanoir]

7. It happened pervasively

in the 16 "swing states." I've often thought. . ."would that it were that they handled the reconstruction of Iraq as effectively and efficientely as they handled the obfuscation of the true results of this election."

I knew about the damned machines but I didn't anticipate the massive suppression and repression of voters. Check out TIA's threads. He continues to do intrepid statistical research.

Acktem. . .we no longer have a democracy here. Don't buy into the myth of a mandate, or "family values" it's total horse shit as is the "culture of life" put forth by war profiteers and death penalty advocates.

I'll link to a related thread in a couple of minutes.

Here it is. . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3457963

[fasttense]

10. Where have you been?

DU has been talking about this since the election. Yeah, Yeah we heard it all. Only the richest and most powerful country in the world is unable to design accurate exit polls. Yeah, Yeah, sure. Go read the election forum. They have it all.

[marions ghost]

11. In trying to prove fraud...

there is this overview to consider--that we do not yet have a system that is effective in investigating or prosecuting election crimes. Meanwhile the "spotty" tampering of the past has metastasized into a systemic disease. There is incredible resistance in this country to realizing the extent of the problem and accepting the ease of election manipulation = it's called denial. Now with the advent of auditless DREs, sold by Republicans with felonious backgrounds who have a vested interest in keeping Republicans in office...well, all it takes is kickin it up a notch. Taking full advantage of "Multiple biases with culmulative effects" is how it's done these days...and as for the where--it would be more productive to ask what states did it NOT occur in.
---------------------------------

The Miami Herald Feb 03, 2005
ELECTIONS
Ukraine vote yields important lessons for U.S. democracy
BY LANCE DEHAVEN-SMITH

(excerpt)
"...unlike this year's presidential election in Ukraine, the 2004 presidential election in the United States was left intact despite legal challenges and protests. In large part this was because U.S. election laws and political culture fail to take into account the potential for systematic bias in election administration. U.S. laws and public opinion focus, instead, on the possibility that unscrupulous candidates might arrange for votes to be cast illegally by individuals using false identifications, forged absentee ballots, or other ruses.

Election shenanigans were common in the 19th Century and in much of the 20th, but in recent years they have been eclipsed by scattered mischief that is carried out or abetted by public officials responsible for election administration. One factor that has contributed to this shift from the conspiratorial tampering of the past to the massive fraud that is so prevalent today is the poorly conceived effort to remake government in the image of the private sector. In recent years, civil-service protections for government employees have been greatly weakened, and many governmental functions have been contracted out to private corporations.

These changes in American public administration have created a new spoils system that makes massive fraud likely in today's elections because it effectively ties public employment and government contracts to election outcomes. In Florida and Ohio, for example, many corporations, public officials and government workers had a vested interest in the reelection of President Bush. No conspiracy was needed to orchestrate their activities. Multiple biases with cumulative effects could be (and were) introduced into the election system through the independent efforts of numerous individuals acting on their own initiative in the pursuit of the same objective. Until U.S. election laws are reformed to guard against massive fraud, our elections will remain vulnerable to systemic abuses.

To be sure, bias in election administration could probably be prosecuted today under existing laws. Certainly, officials in Florida and Ohio appear to have violated their official oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution and the constitutions of their states. They may have also broken federal civil-rights laws by intentionally weakening the voting power of African Americans. However, these acts of massive fraud have gone unpunished -- and, indeed, uninvestigated -- because most Americans have yet to recognize the new form of election tampering that is undermining our democracy."

Lance deHaven-Smith is professor of public administration and policy at Florida State University.

[mtnsnake]

12. If there really was widespread fraud, either it wouldve been proven by now

or the people on our side screwed up ROYALLY in not investigating it enough and finding the evidence to put people in jail for doing it. To commit a crime like this, along with the cover-up it would take afterwards, would involve enough people in it that surely someone would either slip up or leak out some information to implicate someone. None of the links provided on this thread prove a thing. If they did, people would be in jail. It's one thing to say that the machines are owned by neo-cons, and another to prove they were used illegaly and slap the assholes in jail. Now I'm not saying there wasn't fraud....I would LOVE for it to be proven that there was fraud. However, what's bothersome to me are all the people who came out on the news a week after the election with fraud allegations, like that Democratic politician in Florida (I forget his name), and he promised to give evidence backing up his claims........and he gave us NOTHING.

[marions ghost]

13. have you seen this news from Ohio, mtnsnake?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1383306#1383633

You may think this effort is too little too late, but it's progress, considering that we do not have a system that really prosecutes election crimes. You may have a romantic view of the prosecution of white-collar crime in general in this country, mtnsnake. Fraud is just business-as-usual. Assholes do not often get "slapped in jail." Street Crime clogs the courts.

Read "The Cheating Culture" by David Callahan.

(excerpts)
"Soaring professional crime in the last two decades has not been accompanied by a beefing up of the resources needed to prosecute these crimes."

"The lax treatment of cheaters at the highest levels of our society inevitably shapes the calculus of anyone who contemplates cutting corners."

[mtnsnake]

16. Like I said, I'd love for something to be proven and see the guilty serve

time. If any form of tabulating the vote count was done illegaly, or if the voting machines themselves were fixed to assure a Bush win, then something concrete will eventually emerge. Until that happens, people can say or think whatever they want.

Just as much as I wonder whether or not the machines were fixed, I also wonder why Kerry said and did some of the things he did near the end of the campaign. It was almost as if he was trying to lose at that point...even though I'm quite sure that wasn't the case.

Two things concerning the past election: 1) If the machines were fixed, I hope with all my heart that justice is eventually served. 2) I hope to never see such a poorly run campaign by our side ever again. During most of the campaign, to be a little behind in all the polls to the most pathetic president in history, is very disturbing to say the least. We should've never been in a position where voter fraud could swing the election one way or the other. We should've been way out ahead of that criminal all during the campaign.

Bottom line is...I guess I blame our pathetic campaign for our loss as much as the voter fraud people blame the machines. Had we run a good campaign, I don't see any way we could have lost to this monster.

[ariellyn]

18. Sounds more like Kerry bashing that concern about fraud to me.

Anybody following the issues knows that the media did not support the Kerry campaign and played a huge role in his positioning in the race by changing and forming opinions with smut like the Swiftboat campaign or by ignoring him altogether.

The polls that you who cite to dismiss the fraud charges are even less significant than the exit polls you try to ignore. The pre-election polls were overly weighted with republican opinions--just so people like you could explain away their desperate fraudulent acts. The inaccurately weighted polls were nothing more than excuses which Bush supporters like to latch onto excuse the fraud they had to commit to avoid embarassment.

Opinion polls are one thing--and I'm sure you know that. Exit polls are another since they are real time samples of voter opinions which change up until the minute they vote.

You say Kerry should've won. The race was his to lose and he didn't lose fair and square. Bush SHOULD'VE won. He didn't. Again.

[mtnsnake]

23. If you re-read my posts, you'll see it's concern about both

As much as I'm concerned about the alleged voter fraud, I'm not going to use it as a crutch or excuse for a pathetically run campaign by Kerry's handlers/advisors.

If there was indeed the kind of voter fraud that swung the election for Bush, which I'm not denying may or may not have happened, then I'm confident that evidence is out there waiting to be discovered. Right now, we've come up with nothing concrete that'll work in court. If and when we do, Mr Monkeyface will be impeached. Until then, all these people who claim to have definitive proof and names to go along with it, are grasping at air.

[ariellyn]

31. The line about concrete information is bunk. The 2000 election

was stolen in much the same way--a bit more covertly--and nobody was impeached. Broken logic?

[marions ghost]

20. it's interesting to me that, like you,

--often people who have the MOST resistance to believing the election was skewed are also MOST passionate about seeing "justice being served." There's a disconnect there--in a systemically corrupt society, if you believe this couldn't happen...then justice never WILL be served. Whether the machines were fixed is important, but it's more important to realize how the system as a whole is fixed. We do NOT have an effective system for investigation and prosecution of election crimes--and this past election certainly proves that, as most legal experts will admit there's plenty of probable cause.

Strategic mistakes were made by the Dems in the campaign, no question about that. Nobody's saying they shouldn't be accountable.
But when you say "We should've been way out ahead of that criminal all during the campaign" you forget that people were brainwashed to believe the corporate media spin in a relentless and insidious way.
And on top of that is a blind loyalty to "the team" that they have already identified with. The Repugs won a lot of hearts and minds--says more about the fears and naivete of the people than it does about the Kerry campaign. Kerry--and what he stands for--won over a LOT of voters, despite the strength of the "ethically-challenged" opposition. Enough to give me hope that we WILL dig out of this eventually somehow, but first we have to admit that the system is badly dysfunctional and fraud is business-as-usual.

Peace :)

[mtnsnake]

24. Oh, I certainly believe the election MAY have been fixed, and

I certainly believe the machines MAY have been the reason IF the election was fixed. I also believe that our campaign was pathetic, and I worry that that may be the reason we lost, too, and maybe it wasn't the machines. Hey, there isn't a legit member of DU who wouldn't love to see fraud proven in court and the perpetrators, including the chimp, getting the justice they deserve if that's the case. Fraud or no fraud, I absolutely DESPISE Bush, Rove, and all the other Republican clowns and all their corruption that goes along with them. THAT is why I'm so disappointed with our people running such a poor campaign.

Peace :)

[IdaBriggs]

14. Actually, it HAS been proven -- over, and over again.

Its just not "sexy" enough to make television. However, there were over 400 cases of "glitches" that went 398 to 2 in favor of Republicans that were actually reported in newspapers (go to www.votersunite.org for the links) with some of my favorites including a) straight party Democratic votes counted as Libertarian in Indiana, b) straight party Democratic votes not counted AT ALL in New York, c) 58 out of 59 "bad memory cards" in one county in Florida (which meant the "real" memory cards were replaced with pre-programmed ones, since the touch screens had no paper trail), d) 40,000 people throwing fits when they watched their votes "switch" IN FRONT OF THEM in a whole bunch of states, e) don't even get me started on Ohio and on and on and on ....

"Proving" it wasn't that difficult; one of the programmers who wrote the code for Florida came forward in 2000, and I'm here to tell you that since the stuff is written in Microsoft Access, a seventh grader can hack the vote -- and its been done on national television as a demonstration in under five minutes.

The margin of victory in Ohio for Bush was an average of 11 votes per precinct. We know who did it and how, but actually doing anything about it is extremely difficult.

[mtnsnake]

17. WHAT'S been proven? The count? Voter intimidation? Fixed Machines?

The only thing I've seen proven so far are some cases of voter intimidation, which is sickening enough in itself. Has anything been proven that shows that the voting machines were fixed so that the Chimp would win? Has anything been proven that shows anyone is guilty of falsely tabulating the vote count? If those things were proven, then people should be in jail.

You said in your post...."We know who did it and how, but actually doing anything about it is extremely difficult."

Well how about sharing some names with us. And if you know "how" they did it, then it should be no problem proving them guilty in court, sending them to prison where they belong, and turning this into the biggest scandal/crime of the century.

[marions ghost]

25. LOL

you say, "it should be no problem proving them guilty in court, sending them to prison where they belong, and turning this into the biggest scandal/crime of the century"

Oh yeah....no problem...SURE

Sorry, but it will be a BIG challenge to prove any of it in a system that is corrupt and dysfunctional, where idealized notions of "ethics" do not often prevail...where white collar crime is not taken seriously--but there are some who are out there trying. It will be a dogged, brick-by-brick mind-numbing UPHILL effort. I believe that someday you will see the truth of the Big Lie behind this latest selection.

[mtnsnake]

26. That's correct

When someone says they have NAMES (of the guilty parties) and they claim they know HOW (the guilty parties defrauded the system), then it shouldn't be hard to have that kind of evidence stand up in court, especially because of the HOW part.

You're skipping over an important part of the exchange here, which is that the people who claim to have this information never seem to come up with the specifics when asked.

If someone broke into your house without prying open the door, and I told you I knew who did it and how, wouldn't you be after me to tell you who did it and how they did it so we could send them to jail? If I don't follow up by giving you the specifics, then my info doesn't mean squat. It's just innuendo.

Don't worry, I hope as much as you do that the truth, whatever it is, will be served in the end.

[marions ghost]

30. OK well...

1. Incriminating evidence is not likely to be posted in a public forum while investigation is pending.
2. You can have all the names you want, and the how, and legal maneuvering can easily nullify the value of it.
3. We do not have a system that seeks truth, we have a system that promotes cover-ups and rewards liars. Truth and justice are not the order of the day. Whether "justice" is ever served is anybody's guess.
4. Your whole argument depends on the idea that the system works, particularly the justice system. That's our main point of disagreement. I say it's dysfunctional and is not operating in a logical healthy way. But I don't expect people who really WANT to believe that things are basically OK to agree with my point of view. Yes, it is a negative perspective, but I believe that we as a country will have to face the reality of this systemic failure, in order to begin to correct it.
5. I believe we at a watershed moment in American history.

[IdaBriggs]

36. Sigh. Yes.

Here are the problems:

1) "Suicidal" people -- three dead investigative reporters; the last guy did it in December, and it took him TWO bullets to the back of the brain before he was successful. (Can you read the sarcasm?) Anyway, this guy had been receiving death threats, publicly stated he wasn't suicidal, sent his family away because of being in fear for his life, and when the police arrived (due to a note on the door found by some delivery guy), they immediately ruled it a murder -- but "someone else" decided it was a suicide. It is now being investigated as a murder, but only after the family raised bloody hell. You may have seen the story plastered everywhere on the news media -- except you didn't. (You can do a search on it in the DU archives; the links are there.)

2) More "suicidal" people -- a lot of this stuff has originated in Texas, and the people who started "leaking" it are terrified. Yes, they committed illegal acts, and one of the ways we know about it is they have been telling people (humorously enough, because someone in the chain got greedy, and didn't pay some of them the agreed upon amounts!). For them to come forward is literally to put them in peril of their lives. They will be IMMEDIATELY discredited, they will lose their livelihoods, and as a side benefit, THEY will be the ones convicted of election fraud, while the big fish swim away with "plausible deniability" -- please take a look at the techniques used to destroy the Dan Rather stuff for a basic "how to" workshop on "discrediting" the truth.

3) And MORE "dead people" -- Dieboldt vice president begins turning states evidence last year, and immediately dies in a mysterious plane crash. One newsman on all of television begins talking about voter fraud, and his boss's plane mysteriously crashes, killing his child. The owner of a computer company being investigated by the FBI for "fraud" in Flint, Michigan gets into a gun stand-off before he "commits suicide." Its one of the most amazing strings of "coincidences" that I am personally aware of!

4) Big Fish versus Little Fish -- "fixing" an election isn't brain surgery; the problem is that SOMEONE has to raise a fuss about it. If you get the programmers, that's fine -- of course, reality is the "problems" may simply be "glitches" as we have a tendency to copy our code, thus spreading the problems. Now, we have the public testimony of one programmer in Florida, but just because he says he did it doesn't mean anyone really cares, right? They just keep threatening to kill him, and they are hoping he will go away. In the meantime, you know all about him, right? So he's safe?

5) Who Cares? I can assure you that I was PERSONALLY told (after I authored the New Hampshire voter study) that "the Democrats would NEVER request a recount in a state they won" for fear of looking like idiots. If Nader hadn't stepped up, we wouldn't have gotten the information we did. You see, here is the final problem:

Its about MONEY. Despite the fact I have a copy of a $29.6 Million Dollar check from a credible source with supporting documentation that it was used to pay for fixing the election (with names), there is nothing I or the people who were involved with getting it can do. (Side Note: there are now LOTS of copies of this check, so, bad people don't have any need to come after me!) The check was obtained illegally; "plausible deniability" will immediately go into effect, and explaining to the public the extremely complicated money laundering that went into financing the fixing of the election will make all but the most savvy political wonk begin nodding off within moments. The folks who paid for the fixing did so with chump change; they were after bigger money -- a trillion dollars worth of Social Security money, plus the "lost billions" of Iraq, plus avoiding a few pesky problems like "jail time" -- what's $29.6 Million compared to that? And its not like anyone cares about destroying our democracy; most people are just glad the election is over, while half the damn country can't even be bothered to vote!

So, tell me, mtnsnake, just what do you want to do about this stuff? I'll be happy to fax the information I have to you, and hook you up with the educated folks. You can go hunt down the links I provided to you, and then, when you get tired of banging your head against the same walls the rest of us did, you can come back here, and I'll make some sympathetic "told you so" noises at you. The Republicans may be corrupt, but the Democrats are enabling them. You have to work hard to stay this stupid, especially when its your livelihood we're talking about. Here's the worst part: they already know about it, and they've figured out there's not much they can do, either, because the cameras aren't on them when they start talking about this stuff -- its a quick switch to the Michael Jackson trial....what do you mean Representative Conyers put a 114 page report on "irregularities in Ohio" into the Congressional record? Busy people don't have time to read that!!!

[SoCalDem]

15. 110K "extra" votes x 31 states "won" = 3.41 million "mandate

110K in a large state, done "discreetly" here and there, and more than 110K in states/areas that would not be challengedwere all that was necessary..The "lead up" polls were fakes to pretend that there was more support than there really was..The last minute trips to NJ and CA and NY and OH could be justification for "more" votes than expected..

But the issue is THIS.. Paper can be looked at by HUMAN eyes, and verified/re-counted whatever.. Vapor votes can be "counted" and then "gone" in a nanosecond:(

[applegrove]

19. Fraud was committed in the hearts & minds of Americans. n/t

[marions ghost]

21. beautiful!

:applause:

[barb162]

22. Florida and Ohio and everywhere else

They learned their lesson well in Florida in 2000 and decided to expand it nationwide IMHO. All it takes is a few votes in every precinct...

[Doctor_J]

27. IF fraud was committed?

what do you mean IF? The evidence is voluminous. We live in a Banana Republic, and it's likely were not going to return to being a democracy without some serious upheaval.

[demgurl]

28. I've said it before and I will say it again......

What does it matter if there was fraud? A lot of Republicans (I am not saying you are Republican) say to prove it and they always seem to be there with an in-your-face type of attitude.

I think it is the duty of each and every one of us to always counter that we need to tighten the election voting process. They think they have us because there is 'no smoking gun'. They are right, we do not exactly have a smoking gun - just a bunch of bullets lying on the floor!

We need to do several things. We can keep investigating the old elections and we owe it to our country to do so. Have you heard the line about why Dems went along with the last elections rather than shouting fraud from the rooftops? One reason I heard is that if the public sees that there was fraud, all other elections would be called into question and the public would be filled with uncertainty about their own system. Am I missing something here? That would be a bad thing? Why? So officials think it would be better to go on with blinders from here on out rather than looking at our system and possibly revamping it?

Revamping the system leads me to my next point. My main point. Whenever confronted with the question about proof of stolen elections, we need to retort with the fact that we need a tamper proof system. Let them have their win for now. Let them keep their president until we can find that smoking gun. If the election really was fixed, then we need to make sure they can not do it to us again in the future. Keep putting it out there that honest people want honest elections. Call them on this. Tell them there is only one reason a person would not want honest elections. Tell them to keep us quiet by making sure there is no possible way of cheating in future elections. Tell them you agree that liberals are whining too much and that they need to take full measures to make sure they do not whine during the next election.

If the system really is fixed then we have no chance of getting our candidates elected no matter what. But if we are going to fix the voting system then we also need to get a viable candidate. This is something we need to really put our energy into.

Doing only one of the above options will result in nothing but a loss for us. If we only concentrate on investigating old elections then we will not fix the broken system. If we only concentrate on fixing the fraud in our system then we may not have a viable candidate. If we only have a viable candidate then we can not win over fraud. We must work together and bring these three tasks together. We need to be strong in our resolve and not relent.

[marions ghost]

32. agreed

one would have to be brain dead or in total denial not to realize that we have a seriously vulnerable election system, no matter how you want to slice and dice the last elections. Yes we need to challenge the powers that be-- to give us honest elections, guarantee our votes, make our elections fraud-proof (it CAN be done) THIS IS the bottom line. Well-placed words, demgurl

[natrat]

29. maybe these threads are designed to identify people who know

of fraud---then liquidate them