Colour of DU ... pink?

[aneerkoinos]

Does anybody else share the same feeling as I, that the general tone of DU has been gradually sliding from capitalism (with human face) towards socialism (with human face), that openly socialist views have been increasing and knee jerk prejudice towards socialism getting somewhat rarer during the past few years?

Anybody (else but me) been personally sliding towards more socialist views during the last few years? I'm most interested in the American views, since we the forunners haven't been through same turmoil and devastation as our American friends.

[punpirate]

1. Just asking...

... but who are "we the forerunners" here?

[aneerkoinos]

4. foreigners n/t

[punpirate]

14. Might ask, then...

... who had guaranteed retirement insurance first? Social Security began in this country in 1936, while Germany was still working on the Third Reich and some parts of Europe were still trying on fascism for size. :)

[aneerkoinos]

20. Dunno

Difficult question, but interesting. Anyone?

[Jim Lane]

22. No, we didn't have retirement programs first...

This is completely OT to the original question, but to claim Social Security as a U.S. innovation is mistaken. The Social Security Administration's website offers a comprehensive scholarly paper on "FOREIGN SOCIAL SECURITY DEVELOPMENTS PRIOR TO THE PASSAGE OF THE U.S. SOCIAL SECURITY ACT OF 1935" at http://www.ssa.gov/history/pre1935.html but here's a paragraph from the more general history page:

The Social Security program that would eventually be adopted in late 1935 relied for its core principles on the concept of "social insurance." Social insurance was a respectable and serious intellectual tradition that began in Europe in the 19th century and was an expression of a European social welfare tradition. It was first adopted in Germany in 1889 at the urging of the famous Chancellor, Otto von Bismarck. Indeed, by the time America adopted social insurance in 1935, there were 34 nations already operating some form of social insurance program(about 20 of these were contributory programs like Social Security).

From: http://www.ssa.gov/history/briefhistory3.html

[punpirate]

23. Good catch....

Thanks for that info... but I think the topic was whether or not DU was basically "pink" and that meant was DU somehow drifting toward a slightly communistic tendency, or a less democratic socialism. My intent was to suggest that democratic socialism, at least to extent of SS, was a very longstanding tradition in this country.

Thanks for the additional information. I'd known that some union-based socialism existed in Europe in earlier times, especially in the Weimar Republic (and, after all, the guilds of Europe were the precursors of modern-day unions), but was, unfortunately, not considering those in complete context.

Cheers.

[aneerkoinos]

27. Clarification

The topic I intended was a guestion about drift from capitalism (with New Deal mixed economy overlays) towards socialism generally, which is a wide area, certainly no "less democratic" socialism.

Paris 1848 is pretty important date in the history of socialism. Pre-Marx.

[LiberalEsto]

2. I don't think so

I'm right where I've always been, but the right wing keeps moving father and farther right, so the contrast seems greater.

[KharmaTrain]

3. Lots Of Moderates & Others Have Left DU

This site has changed character over the 3 years I've been a member. I've notice many moderates and progressives who have left this board since they felt very uncomfortable and unwelcome here. This place has become more and more about personalities and cliques than about a real discussion about issues or lifestyles.
A lot of my friends, who I turned onto DU last year, no longer stop by here...some were chased off this site...and the constant fighting that happens here relegates it to more as a curiosity site than anything that represents what a lartge number of Democrats, and the party in particular, stand for.

[aneerkoinos]

5. OK

DU is a left-wing cess-pool. That is certainly a view that is hard to argue against. :)

So, do you consider yourself more of a moderate or pinko leftie?

[dcfirefighter]

6. I voted for Bush the first time

Sorry.

But i've progressed further left since then.

I still don't like socialism, as government control (this should be obvious now) isn't any better than corporate control.

The trick is to keep the power out of any small group's hands:
Electoral reform is important, but so is exploring proportional representation.

One of the things that ticks me off about 'capitalism' is the bad name that it's given to free exchanges of goods & services (and ideas).

I suppose you could say that my political views favor individual freedoms, and my economic views favor socializing the returns to land-capital (but not labor, or labor-capital). Oh, and socializing the returns to money creation. Doing so really will keep corporations from becoming too powerful.

I also favor keeping a very tight rein on federal government, somewhat looser reins on state governments, and fairly liberal reins on local government. Decentralized power is harder to corrupt.

[aneerkoinos]

10. Thanks for your post

There's a lot we agree on and if there are actual disagreements (and not just connotations to words), that would need further discussions to find out.

But I didn't create this thread to preach socialism, so hopefully another time. :)

[KharmaTrain]

8. I'm A NOTA...None Of The Above

I didn't say "cesspool" (your choice of words).

My stances depend on the issues...sorry I don't fall into the "cookie cutter" liberal or socialist or any label someone wants to stamp...how right wing that is.

[aneerkoinos]

11. Of course you don't

None of us are that simplistic and two-dimensional.

We can, however, give our own generalisations about our leanings and biases, if we so wish - or don't, absolutely no need to. :)

[papau]

7. so where did these moderates go - I'm a moderate and I have not

felt the need to go -

granted my skin is 2 feet thick and I am as sensistive as a rock - so I might not know when I am being dumped on -

but I really have not seen conflict of a political sort on the site.

now if we are discussing movies, gay or atheist feelings, or music, folks can have bad days and be a bit sharp - forgetting to use their social skills.

but I somehow miss the fights that drive folks away.


But if you know of a site that represents what a large number of Democrats, and the party in particular, stand for, better than DU, I'd like to visit it!

:-)

[KharmaTrain]

9. I Can't Speak For Moderates...

Only myself and I visit a lot of different sites and boards...and I know many others who do as well. Where DU was the central board for a lot of us a year ago, that's not the case any longer.

It started almost the second Kerry lost the election...first there was the blame games and flaming that went on immediately following the election and it's been ongoing ever since. Yep, you better have a thick skin if you question anything gay or religious around here.

At one point I asked about other message boards than DU and was reprimanded by the Mods here for just asking. Fortunately I was PM'd with a few very interesting and engaging sites.

I come over here for the amusement and to gauge the reaction to events...not as one that really offers a place to network and dialogue.

Cheers

[patricia92243]

12. I agree with everything you say. I love DU and feel very fortunate to

have found it.

[nonconformist]

13. I've moved further left

I had always considered myself more of a moderate. I was always socially liberal but took a more moderate stance fiscally. Over the last few years, I've moved further left in both areas and now consider myself a Populist.

There are a couple of main reasons why:

1. I'm more informed. The more informed you are, the more you realize how bad Republican policies are for America and her people.

2. Injustice breeds extremism. Capitalism and fascism breed radicalism. It's hard not to be radical when you have no voice and you're being shit on all over the place.

That said, I'd have to attribute 90% of my move farther left to simply being more informed.

[aneerkoinos]

17. Well said

My experience too, the more informed (thanks to Internet), the more radical I've become (radical (from latin for root) looks not just the symptoms, but the actual causes of problems.

[Cleita]

15. DU is often too moderate for me.

Go figure.

:shrug:

[aneerkoinos]

21. Well

I think I can relate to that feeling. But DU is the first place where some people have beaten me locating even further south-west on the political compass... :D

[Selatius]

16. Socialism is very misunderstood on many points

Socialism itself is basically divided into two camps: State socialists and anarcho-socialists or libertarian socialists. One wants to utilize the state in its existing form in order to impose a socialist order. The other tries to use education and popular organization in order to bring it about.

State socialism can be terribly dangerous. When you allow a relatively small number of people the decision-making power to determine how the economy should be run or managed instead of allowing workers to do it themselves through consensus and communication, you risk replacing the previous capitalist oligarchy with a socialist oligarchy that is just as tyrannical as the previous regime. This is even more true if those who have the decision-making power are unelected, but the same danger exists even with a republican form of government because concentrated power corrupts the mind. All you need is a few who can hide their bloodlust for power and get elected, and all is lost.

[aneerkoinos]

19. And more camps

What globalization and experiencing with new structures such as EU has tought me, is that regardles the system, the level (from local to global and all between) of decision making should be issue related, but deciding wich issues and when should be decided on which level is awfully complicated and messy, the trademarks of true democracy. Big issues like global enviromental standards, guidelines for minimum wages and other similar social issues etc., obviously can effectively decided only on the global level, but I hold decentralization (or subsidiarety in EU-lingo) as the rule of thumb, things should be allways decided as close to people, at closest to local communities, as possible. What is possible is the difficult part.

So call me a supporter of global decentralized socialism. :)

[Selatius]

29. Yes, you understand perfectly! We're on the same page.

The reason why I hold fast to the idea of trying to devolve decision-making power into the hands of as many people as possible (preferably every citizen possible) is because my family experienced first hand what Stalinist socialism is. You see, we're Vietnamese. We know what it's like to live under a regime that claims to be for the people yet won't even allow people fundamental rights and freedoms. It's just an oligarchy. I believe socialism is ultimately the long-term solution not only for the survival of human civilization but also for the survival of the planet as a life-sustaining system as well, but my reaction is visceral if it is socialism of the authoritarian kind. People like Stalin should be as feared as people like Bush. Socialism without democracy is just more horrendous tyranny.

[BeFree]

18. DU is brown

Mix together many different colors and what do you get? Brown.

But it don't smell like the usual brown stuff, eh?

Minority opinions to the side, DU is a dynamic place. Some folks would never be happy here, and some couldn't think of doing without. (me)

However, there is a rather nice shade of pink to the mixture, and it does seem to be more and more so; most of us wouldn't want it any other way.

[da_chimperor]

24. Eh, I'd use gray instead. Or something.

Brown has a rather fascist connotation to it with the brownshirts and all. Damn Nazis ruining a perfectly fine color.

[aneerkoinos]

28. Well

Like any worthy net-forum, DU has also its expected cess-pool characteristics, so colour brown does have some merits.

[Piperay]

25. I'm a moderate

and yes I have noticed it in particular some discussions that have to do with things other than politics. I have a thick skin so I just let it roll off of me. DU is still closer to my beliefs than any place else and I still have a sense of belonging.

[frustrated_lefty]

26. No.

I pick up more "majority rule, minority rights." Maybe that's just me, though.

[Liberal In Texas]

30. In a word. No. n/t