About the latest immigration threads here

Okay, the recent posts on immigration have, frankly, upset me. Many of the posters seem to be reading rethuglican talking points memes or listening to that MSM that doesn’t ever seem to get a story right. We can not make immigrants and specifically, illegal immigrants, the only scapegoats for the ills of this country. Before I begin, I do not condone in any way illegal immigration. Immigration in general needs reform. Building up walls around the US is not going to solve the problem. Some of the rather Pat Buchannanesque posts seem rather xenophobic and show a lack of caring and understanding of the situation. I want to bring some reality to the conversation because whether we like it or not, people will come here.

I have been working with immigrants for the past 11 years. These are some of the most hardworking individuals around. They do not suck social services such as is claimed by some nor do they depend on hand-outs to eek out a living. In fact they turn them down many times even when they are offered. These people work and are proud! The reasons for immigration are varied. Most of the blame for illegal immigration in my eyes lies with hypocritical businesses that complain about immigration yet pay illegal workers under the table dirt cheap wages. No wonder they come. I also believe that illegal and legal immigrants to this country provide much to the economy. They are building the infrastructure of this country. They are building houses. They are helping the restaurant industry, the service industry and filling the jobs that many will not fill.

These individuals also DO pay taxes. They pay taxes in the form of sales taxes. They sometimes own their own houses and pay property taxes or pay rent to apartment complexes which in turn pay their taxes. The idea they come and only take things from the US is quite simply wrong and grossly misstated.

We are witnesses to history. There are huge paradigm shifts taking place in regards to population and the face of the United States. My face, white Anglo-Saxon, is no longer the face of America. The face of America is more Hispanic than anything else. Many feel uncomfortable with this and I am sorry. I accept it. One poster in another thread complained that in parts of Miami, English is not spoken. This does not bother me in the least. Just because it is not spoken doesn’t mean English is dead. It will be, for the foreseeable future, the language of business and government. If there are pockets of communities where other languages are spoken, great. Diversity is wonderful. Wars have never been fought over language use. Wars are fought over resources, land, religion, etc… Being diverse will help understand each other, if we want.

I am a bilingual teacher/administrator in a large school district outside of Dallas. I work with children who have never even been given a chance to have a quality education. One reason their parents come here is for their children to have a chance to be educated. I certainly can not fault the parents for this. As part of the 5th grade curriculum, the students study immigration. Since in the 5th grade bilingual classroom immigration has affected the entire classroom, the teacher asked the children to write in their journals about their experiences. The children could use any style of writing that they wanted. Many of the children are recent immigrants, less than 3 years here, so some chose to write in Spanish. The best piece of writing in my opinion was the following, which I feel, shows best what happens to a family affected by immigration. The author, a little girl, created a character who was a father. It could have been hers. I didn’t ask. She wrote her narrative in the form of a letter. If you have made it this far, please read the letter. It humanizes the discussion that we have been having lately about immigration. These aren’t criminals that come here. These are people with feelings and needs. Again, something needs to be done about illegal immigration, but to make immigrants the scapegoats for all the immigration problems is misguided.

(Translated with some editing but I tried to keep the original style and errors to keep it genuine, but I did add more periods. This girl is still working on her grammar. However, as you read listen to the voice and feeling present in this piece of writing. I know her so perhaps that is why this piece moved me, but still I think it is powerful! The names have been changed.)


From: Rodrigo
To: María

María, I know that in Mexico it is hard to find work and feed my kids because of this I came to the United States to have a better life and to have a job. I would not want you to suffer without food nor from work. I know that you and my kids are suffering. I can’t buy anything with the money I earn and with the money you earn nor with the money I am sending you. For sure, I can not buy you or my kids anything.

I came to the United States to send you money and so that you could buy my kids and yourself (something) and to pay for the house things and buy food to support my children. When things get better in the United States I swear to you that I will bring you all here myself so that you don’t suffer and that you have food, more clothes, more money and many other things. When things improve you will soon be with me.

Children and wife, I arrived in the United States without money, without a place to live, without anything to eat and without clothes. It hurt me to see me suffering like this and I don’t want to see you all like me when I arrived in the United States. When things get better, I swear that you all will live better than in your home country.

I confront many things like risking death because in the United States like those that live in the streets, the streets are bad. They don’t like people that come to the United States from Mexico, from Monterrey or from various other countries like the time I found a small apartment. Days passed. (Then) those that lived in the streets killed my friend because he was from Monterrey. That is why I don’t want to bring you here now. Wait until things calm down. If not, you and the kids could put yourself in more danger.

In this country, life is rough. Everything is rough even the police are rough. One day my friends were at their home. The police arrived. They mistreated them very badly only for not paying attention to them. I would not want Immigration to come and beat us. Maybe when I am a citizen and the president receives me in his country, as if I were no longer an immigrant, and I fix your papers so that you can come and have a different life, I will send for you. I would very much like to have you all here with me and see you happy. Here in the United States the children can have a school where they can learn better and a life; a different one.

Well, I must go now. It makes me sad to see you suffer. We’ll see each other later. I wish I could be near my family. I don’t care if you are poor; be that as it may, I will always love you all because you are my life. (When we see each other) I will love you like I had never seen you before. I love you. Take care.

The above is reality and it is life. It is not a political discussion. So for all the idiot minutemen protecting the borders, please say hello to Rodrigo. He’s just doing what he has to do to help his family survive.

I think everyone who has an interest in this subject should actually GET TO KNOW some illegal immigrants. OR how about some legal immigrants? Any of them. Talk to them, get to know them, ask them questions. Learn their stories.

As you know, I also worked closely with such kids. I am ESL certified and taught ESL eighth graders for many years in a low socio-economic middle school in your same area (suburban Dallas).

Some of their stories are just heartbreaking. At an older age, they try hard to not let anyone know they CAN speak Spanish. They change the pronunciation of their names, they "Anglo-fy" everything they can about them. They make fun of kids recently from Mexico and call them "mojo."

One boy I had was very recently here from Columbia. We were reading a poem by Octavio Paz and I asked if anyone would like to read it in the original Spanish (I had both versions). Kids giggled, no one volunteered, but the student from Columbia confidently raised his hand, not aware that doing that would cause ridicule from the other kids, who were IMMIGRANTS THEMSELVES! But they had been here longer and had gotten the message (from whom, we ask ourselves? Hmmm...) that it was distinctly uncool to admit you know Spanish, much less to read it out loud in class.

He read it, despite the snickering, and he did an excellent job. It was beautiful. He did look confused at the giggling. As much as I encouraged him, that was the LAST time I ever heard him speak Spanish.

And yet, all I hear from right wingers (and others) are that these immigrants REFUSE to learn to speak English. Hell's bells, my city's free English classes for adults are PACKED every Wednesday night. We have to turn people away. The city is trying to get the funds together to offer a second and possibly third night a week to have the classes (I volunteer to teach them).

It's the employers who happily use and abuse the illegal immigrants I have a problem with. It's the Americans, like my former friend, who whisper vile things about Mexicans behind their backs that I have a problem with. (I was once in a K-Mart and that "friend" and I saw a man buying a lot of fabric that was on clearance. He explained to the fabric employee-who was Hispanic-in Spanish that he was sending it to Mexico to his abuelita to make dresses for his daughters. My friend whispered "Good, glad to see they're buying up all the butt-ugly fabric. Wish he'd go with his fabric." That was the last time I ever saw her.)

I'm glad and sad that you have ditched your friend, but I would have done the same. I had to ditch my own uncle because he is so racist he was degrading Hispanics right in front of my wife and kids. What makes it worse is that my wife and therefore my kids are part Hispanic! Racism just blinds you. But it taught me a lesson, racists truly just look at skin color not the person. My wife is olive skinned; not indigenous looking, but she is Hispanic. My uncle really likes her and accepted as a person, so I thought. He never realized she was Hispanic.
It's the same with immigrants. Get to know their stories and I think most will find they are not who many think they are.

Thank for your thoughtful post.
I was saddened and disgusted by many of the posts I read. I was astounded by how vehemently they fought to hold on to their divisive and archaic beliefs. Some of those people should be ashamed of themselves.
They should be ashamed of their thinly veiled racism, their hatred and bigotries, and their self absorbed rhetoric. But, mostly they should be ashamed at how easily they are being played by the small percentage of people that control the wealth. The aristocracy love nothing more than watching the peasants squabble for some crumbs.

I hear the rhetoric all too often. It usually comes from people from whom I expect this. It just took me by surprise here. It shouldn't. I have seen some pretty polarized discussions on language use too. That was even discussed recently in one of the immigration threads.

Recommended for first page. I hope others do too.

I don't think anything of mine has been recommended for the first page. I am humbled.

Yeah, maybe it's not illegal, but it sure is stupid and a recipe for disaster. As if these guys are just gonna sit around with their guns and merely call immigration on these poor people.

Shoving a red hot poker up your ass isn't illegal either. I suggest all the idiots defending the "minute men" shove a red hot poker up their ass since it's not illegal, it must good fun and patridiotic to boot!

Flipping off an officer is technically not illegal( as far as I know) but it is antagonizing and a recipe for disaster as you say. Those freaks are heading for some trouble and simply further the stereotype of the dumb,xenophobic American.

I don't see people scapegoating illegal immigrants around here. I see some people discussing the problem of illegal immigration. That's not the same as being anti-immigrant. And I see other people discussing the human value of illegal immigrants. I don't think any true liberal would disagree with that. I think what causes the conflicts is when opposition to illegal immigration is portrayed as opposition to illegal immigrants fueled by racism. Yes, there are racists who just don't like Mexicans, but I don't think you'll find many on DU. The hiring of illegal immigrants hurts both the immigrants themselves and society in general. It's a lose-lose situation. The only ones making out are the "cheap labor" Republican companies who hire the illegal immigrants. I have sympathy for illegal immigrants, just like I have sympathy for poor people who shop at Walmart for the low prices, even though I feel they are hurting themselves and other poor communities in the long run.

The problem lies in the fact that many Americans employ these people knowing good and well that they are paying them nothing; do not have to pay social security taxes on them, insurance, etc...It is all contract, day labor. What needs to be done is for the Migra (immigration) to start cracking down on the American companies that employ illegals while the government makes honest attempts to help Mexico, primarily, build up its economy and defeat all the gaft and corruption that is there. The US started back in the early 1800's to meddle in Mexican/Central/South American concerns and for the most part failed miserably. If we want to protect "our" interests, let's begin to offer genuine help without the covert ops crappola.

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And there's absolutely no way to confirm a word you've posted.

Sometimes I attack them with facts, but I'm getting tired.

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Here's what I found...big surprise. Not. All emphasis mine.

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/org/cis.php

The Center for Immigration Studies describes itself as “the nation’s only think tank devoted exclusively to research and policy analysis of the economic, social, demographic, fiscal, and other impacts of immigration on the United States.” Founded in 1985 as a think tank to support the more activist work of the anti-immigrant Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), CIS is dedicated “to expand the base of public knowledge and understanding of the need for an immigration policy that gives first concern to the broad national interest. The Center is animated by a pro-immigrant, low-immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted.”

CIS describes itself as “independent” and “nonpartisan,” but its studies, reports, and media releases consistently support its restrictionist agenda and works closely on Capitol Hill with Republican Party immigration restrictionists. However, CIS has achieved credibility with the media and in think tank circles because of its lack of the kind of strident anti-immigrant rhetoric associated with many restrictionist groups, its willingness to invite pro-immigrant voices to its forums, and the scholarly format of its reports.

(snip)

“Let’s be clear,” wrote Frank Sharry of the National Immigration Forum, “CIS was birthed by FAIR, the militant anti-immigration group. The CIS executive director moved from FAIR to CIS to head up the organization. Although now independent, the two organizations share the same basic agenda: an American version of what in Europe is called ‘zero immigration.’” According to Sharry, CIS masquerades as an objective, “squeaky clean” think tank, but CIS is “simply churning out high-sounding, low-credibility grist for the high-pitch, low-road anti-immigration forces in the United States.” This assessment of CIS is widely shared among pro-immigrant groups, but CIS studies are not only frequently cited by the “low-road” nativist forces but also by major news media.

(snip)

Early funding for CIS was channeled through U.S. Inc, a nonprofit established and still directed by John Tanton, who was one of the cofounders of the Federation of American Immigration Reform (FAIR). (3) Among the right-wing foundations that fund CIS are Sarah Scaife Foundation, John M. Olin Foundation, Jaqueline Hume Foundation, Carthage Foundation, and Scaife Family Foundation.

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http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?...

And another from MHRC

http://www.morrismn.org/mhrc/articles/imgMyths.shtml

And here's one from "The Nation"
http://www.seattlecentral.org/faculty/dloos/ESLAwarenes...

Thank you. Just more ammo to back up what I know to be true. The SPL center is a fantastic site! I have been there many times.

Certainly Cato Institute can't be accused of being "too liberal". Even their results show the myths.

http://www.cato.org/dailys/4-22-97.html

Anywho, thanks for posting the OP

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How do you justify them not being able to be anti-immigrant. I'm not suggesting anything. But why bring up the Latino gangs and not all the white gangs? Gangs have nothing to do with immigration status.

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website to do so.

hardly a "liberal" site.

of illegal/legal immigration? can we say BUSINESS -- cheap labor??? Get that HB1 to do that computer programmer's job for 3/4th the salary and a jump in the immigration line, and get the American to train them to replace him/her, on top of it. Nah, nothing the business community would be interested in.

Legal immigrants are not afraid to join unions or turn in unfair employers. The link does not specify legal/illegals.

for slave labor wages. YOu know perfectly well that LEGAL immigrants don't do that. Are they cheaper? Yes, but not by the vast amounts people fear. Provide a link showing me that they are so so so much cheaper.

Take a look a Wipro's entries in the Dept. of Labor's H-1B database (http://www.flcdatacenter.com/casesearch.asp ). The vast majority of salaries are in the $40 and $50K range, this in a field in which the national median is over $70K.
http://www.itpaa.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article...

The second link addresses problems from legal workers. And again, it involves people evading the law through loopholes, not those evil immigrants taking jobs from Americans.

"There are Latino gangs that will kill you for the wrong look?" There are white, black, green and yellow gangs that will do the same. This is life. The more you post, the more I think that you simply don't like Hispanics.

I just now saw this (I've been busy on other threads).

You said exactly what I would have, had I been here.

I needed some help,lol.

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But anyway, they left out some from the article they cited. Specifically the NRC found that immigrants add 1-10 billion per year to the US revenue.


Here's a link.
http://migration.ucdavis.edu/mn/more.php?id=1246_0_2_0

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The Washington Times is a known freeper mag as is The Dallas Morning News and the San Diego Union-Tribune. I don't know the other periodicals.

http://www.nationalreview.com /

Take a look. From their own "subscribe page"

"No other magazine is better than NR at analyzing the key decisions and appointments of the Bush Administration — or at seeing through the platitudes and exposing the machinations of liberal Democrats and their interest — group cohorts"

I'm posting too quickly. It's hard keeping up with this thread. I don't mind though. Thanks yet again.

Very fair and balanced.

That's really funny to me. Not sure why. I'm sure you have plenty of links from Newsmax, etc... but you will not post them.

their prejudices! Good work!

brown babies are soooo beautiful

VIVA LA RAZA!

I've been referred to both sites before and I suspected that they were run by the reichwing agenda. I am now bookmarking this thread because of what what you posted. My sincerest thanks. My only regret is that far too many DUers have either been duped by these sites or are closeted freepers.

I'm just a born skeptic and researcher. When anyone posts a vague link (one that doesn't make clear in the URL what it refers to) it piques my curiousity, and I generally want to dig a little deeper into the source.

Maybe Rush too. It's alwas good to have more than one source.

It is natural as most are ill educated, one reason for coming here, and then find that the US is not paved with gold so they turn to petty crime and then unfortunately more serious crime. However, the percentages of Mexicans in the Mexican Mafia are small compared to the overall numbers that come here. Were all Italians at the turn of the century in the Mob? No, but the stereotype took a long time to break.

I might be real upset about your "facts" were it not for the following facts:

* Our own domestic population of full citizens produce more gang members than illegals anyway;

* for every criminal illegal gang member there must be a thousand or more incrredibly productive, hard-working illegal immigrant;

* there are criminals in virtually any population you can name.

And btw, you can call me heavily biased, if you want. My formerly illegal alien (beautiful, talented, wonderful, productive, educated) daughter-in-law finally got her green card in the mail a couple of weeks ago.

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Now about that sock.....

or just keep on trucking...

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I am just sick and tired of beating a dead horse. I fight this everyday tooth and nail with people. I'm in Texas so basically every 2 out of 3 people think like you in regards to immigration; however, it doesn't mean that you or they are correct. Sorry if I seem defensive, but for 11 years I have been fighting the rhetoric. It's tiring after a while. Did you read the great links in post #62?

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If you don't want to be accused of being right wing, don't post links to right wing sites. You shouldn't be accused of such anyway, but you're adding fuel to the fire by posting RW trash and some people will break the rules out of emotion.

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I don't understand the insult in the trucking thing, your username says "lisa b trucking". But whatever, I didn't say that.

And yeah, two wrongs don't make a right. So yep, you should just rise above it, or so I'm told.

by posting things like "Latino gangs will kill you..." "...opening the borders." You sound like Pat Buchannan. Perhaps this site is not for you then. Posts have been made that refute what you think. If you don't like it, I'm sorry.

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Do you think the personalities of those that come here legally and those that come here illegally differ that much?

If you say that yes, they should come here legally, you still have to answer your own question. Why should we let ANYONE in when they have the potential to form gangs. England has a high rate of petty theft. We shouldn't allow the English in to come over here and pickpocket us.

If you say no, then how do you restrict citizens?

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You are. I have no problem with immigration or immigrants.

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rights. The the war those pesky mexicans are dying from is a war the world has been fighting forever-poverty.

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But I know some immigrants and they have the easiest time in the world here. But oops, they're white. THey'd be pissed if they were treated the way Mexicans are, and I bet the way Sudanese people are too.

You want to talk about special rights. How about Cubans that come here and if they can set foot here they are automatically granted residency? And besides the talk to the rethuglicans who could give a rat's ass about the Sudanese. They rather wage an illegal war over a personal vendetta in Iraq instead of helping the Sudanese.

Oh but at one Mexicans did have special rights but the law establishing these special rights was not followed. Go figure!

Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo

There is a large population of Ethiopians and Sudanese in the Dallas area. They just can't compare to the numbers of Hispanics because of geography.

Do a study sometimes of prison population gangs and their connections to not only churches and militias, but also militias that front as churches and patriotic organizations. You may find that the gang banger is in your your own little enclave. Isn't there something in the Bible about casting the first stone? What about people living in glass houses.

sucking the welfare system are mostly white. I can say that because I am white!

I lived up in Idaho for five years. It's very, very white. Every time I went to the supermarket, woman after woman ahead of me paid with food stamps and I know their husbands were working at their "good paying" jobs at the mill. About 60% paid with food stamps. No illegals there, but there were all those "good paying" jobs because the illegals weren't lowering the wages. Then they got to go home and cook over a woodburning stove in their cabins that very often didn't even have indoor plumbing.

Isn't it?

on the dollar? Boy, it would be very hard to drag oneself out of poverty earning less than 3/4 of the money someone else does for doing the same job.

Are you talking percentagewise by population? Please post a link.

you have to search for the welfare stats, but the % of population figures are fairly easy to come by.
75% of the population is white, non-Hispanic -- 35.9% of welfare rolls
12% of the population is black -- 36.9% of the welfare rolls
13.3% of the population is Hispanic -- 20.8% of the welfare rolls
While numbers alone would show there are more whites on welfare,it's bogus,imo, without the total population % numbers. In just numbers, there are more whites for everything -- home owners, heart attacks, fish eaters,tax payers-- just because they are the largest racial group -- alone, it means nothing.

And also, as stated before, the inequalities in pay have to mean something too.

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Your comments have frequently been very demeaning and degrading about one particular group of people -- I guess I would politely describe them as dark-skinned people who sometimes speak Spanish. And your comments suggest to me and perhaps to others that you would prefer that all of these dark-skinned people who sometimes speak Spanish be removed from this country.

A great many of those dark-skinned people who sometimes speak Spanish are legal residents of this country. Indeed, many of them are second, third, fourth, and even fifth generation citizens of this country. They are not all criminals, they are not all alcoholics, they are workers and mothers and teachers and scientists and police officers and farmers and librarians and accountants and cooks and printing press operators and veterinarians and artists and sons and sisters and cousins and grandfathers. They are married and single and divorced and gay and in love and in hate and rich and poor and beautiful and happy and lonely.

In other words, they are human beings. Just like (most of) the rest of us.

You need to refer Lisabtrucking and a few others to some of your other posts on immigration. Thanks again.

they are nasty to you. I think your disingenuous posts about an underclass of people, saying that they are a big cause of crimes, are more nasty than talking about socks.

Who do you think you are, passing judgement on a whole class of people you probably don't even talk to?

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Oh how I hate those whites! They are nasty!

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kid. Now now, you have to be fair and apply that logic across the board.

Did you ask him for his papers?

Many of us read another post of yours calling "illegal aliens nasty" drunken, criminals who piss in public. It was deleted because so many found it offensive and racist, remember?

How do you know the guy was illegal? How did you know what his ethnicity was? I think you are full of shit. I've been hearing this same crap for sixty years. It's always something they did that no one can collaborate. If you want to publish the police report with names blocked out and your 13 year olds deposition, I might believe you.

In the south prior to desegregation, the police have always been good at setting up blacks with this type of crap so they could throw them in jail and beat them up.

BTW, my cousin's husband was a San Antonio, Texas cop back in the forties. He bragged about stuff like this.

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Why? Do you think Cleita, Maestro, and I are illegals?

to pee in public?

My boy didn't want his pic taken.



I look fat don't I?

That's a fact.

I think you have another axe to grind and aren't being honest about it. Blaming a convenient scapegoat is handy for your purposes though, closing the border. Well, you make me feel so much better that it wasn't about racism after all just building a wall around the USA and telling them, you all go now. I'm in so shut the gate behind me.

of your hatred. Just because some low-class Hispanic, who may or may not be an illegal immigrant, pisses in front of your child, you think they are all like this. That is a mighty wide brush you paint. My quarter Hispanic kids and my half Hispanic wife appreciate your sentiments. You my friend have a problem. I can point to all races that have disgusting people like this.

of someone pissing on *.

You really must be more careful.

Recovering from a bad disease.

I applaud her efforts and welcome her to our country legally.

but lacks academically in both her first language and English obviously. Unfortunately * and his NCLB are punishing her for not learning English at the same academic level as other 5th graders who were born and raised here. My disdain for * and his ilk knows no bounds. This was her third year and according to Shrubhead, she was supposed to be able to speak and work academically at a 5th grade in English. I've heard asshat * speak Spanish. He can not even talk at a cognitive level in Spanish so why does he impose such harsh standards on children? We lose funds under NCLB. Oh wait, he must comply with his reichwing masters' desires and the rest of the anti-immigration wing of the party.

When I read things like the OP, I am reminded of Terri Schiavo -- argument from emotion. Once I posted on an immigration site, and I was admonished to read a link from supposed "neutrals" on the issue. I had posted the $$ cost of a Mexican immigrant to society because of low earning ability, and the responder took exception to it. I read the suggested link, and it said that there IS a cost to state and local government, but not to federal. Without arguing that point, it was clear that even the "neutral" source had agreed with me.

First it was farm labor, then tourist industry, now formerly well-paying construction jobs. The world is full of needy people in 3rd world countries -- does it stop with the US becoming one? My Latino friends feel strongly that everyone should come here legally, as they had to, and from what I read, it's a pretty common sentiment.

wants to do it that way. Why do you think gays want marriage?

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God bless those with their heart on their sleeve -- we need them, too. But I think it is best to stick to facts when making policy decisions. For those who allow their emotions to rule their heads, there are all too many outlets for their concerns -- plenty of places in the world to go to help the downtrodden, unfortunately. I fear that their good works and concerns will increasingly be needed in every town in America, when the HB1 Visa's, and the low income illegals, and the exported jobs in the name of bringing up the 3rd world, send us all into poverty. There's only one place for us to go with all this stuff happening, and that is down -- personally, I don't want to. Call me a greedy American, but I prefer not to live in a tent.

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You might as well say the GOP website "gives both sides of the story".
If they are non-partisan, I'm a bloody leprechaun.

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/org/cis.php