Raise the flag: our soldiers did not die for Popes, Billy Graham, Falwell

[Democrats_win]

They died for Americans, America and for what it should represent. This is an insult to those who served and died for our nation.

Lower your religious flag to half-staff, put black fabric over your doors etc.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. It's Just Paying Respect To A World Leader...

eom

[still_one]

16. paying respect to a church who covered up child molestations

and prdotected the culprits. This occurred on his watch, along with forbiding birth control, and not preaching a very tolerant message toward gays

Name one other NON-AMERICAN who has been honored this way?

* was doing it only for votes

Now the media like CNN, "Christian News Network", will tell us things like how he was a deity on earth. We had seven days of Reagan, 3 weeks of Schiavo, which is still continuing, and at least 9 days of the Pope

IS THERE NO OTHER NEWS?

ARE WE A THEOCRACY?

[CubsFan1982]

27. Churchill. De Gaulle. George VI. Victoria. Paul VI. John XXIII.

I could go on.

Try to know SOMETHING about what you're talking about before you go off half-cocked.

[oscar111]

28. Misleader. Now raise the flag. eom

[JohnKleeb]

2. He was a head of state too

[oscar111]

30. Head of state: keep state and religion seperate everywhere

[JohnKleeb]

31. Vatican City is a country last I checked

it was specifically designed as a country for the pope to live in. The flag is also lowered as a side of respect, do you realize how much of this country is Catholic?
and I think its astonishing that the OP would compare a man like the pope to Falwell.

[havocmom]

3. Too many of them died for lies told to make profits for greedy bastards

too. How about a little ruckus about THAT?

How about Falwell, Graham and the likes STFU about national policies. Soldiers fought for America, not for the likes of some greedy, bigotted preachers.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. How Did Billy Graham Get Thrown In With Jerry Falwell?

Billy Graham preaches a positive message of salvation... You can or can not agree with him...


He doesn't slam gays.... He doesn't slam Arabs.... He doesn't slam liberals.....

[Democrats_win]

7. No matter which religion, Americans do not fight for a specific religion.

[still_one]

10. maybe not, but he slams Jews with Nixon in the oval office

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. It Was Reprehensible...

He apologized for it...

I consider myself a tolerant person and have friends of all races, religions, colors, and sexual orientations...


Have I ever in a moment of ignorance made a bigoted remark?


Yes...


And I believe most people have too....


None of us are perfect....

[still_one]

20. OK, appologized ONLY AFTER HE WAS CAUGHT

never thought it wrong until he was caught

I am sorry that Gallio was condemned by the Church for science, at it took them hundreds of years to appologize

I am sorry that the Crusades thought the wholesale slaughter of Muslims was O.K.

I am sorry that the Spanish Inquisition was approved by the Church

I am sorry that many of the Catholics in Poland do NOT regret what happened to the Jews in World war II, yes this pope was an exception at that time, a very "rare" exception

I guess the hundreds of thousands of Iraqiis we have killed can be resolved with an apology, and everything will be OK

[DarbyUSMC]

42. Even if you did 98 percent of good, kind things in your life but made

a statement or comment in private that sounded mean spirited, as I have done, you'd be crucified for it. Maybe people should look at the man, his life and the way he has lived. Lumping him in with Fawell et. al. doesn't seem fair to me. Only my view, which is probably tilted a bit. As said before Dr. Graham is a Democrat. And if Franklin has said things that he had no business saying, it's not his father's doing. He is well over twenty-one.

BTW Good point DemocratSinceBirth

[buff2]

17. His son does it for him.

One time I was scanning the TV stations and ran across Franklin Graham on FOX with Sean INsanity of all places. So I watched. Much to my dismay,he said something that was VERY inappropriate for a minister. He said that liberals will not make it to heaven.Then both Sean and Franklin was laughing it up. I grew up watching Billy Graham,I thought he was a true christian minister,but since I saw how he clung to this idiot in the Whitehouse and voted for him,I have no use for him at all. His son is a rightwing nut job too,and his buddying up to Sean Hannity proved to me what a low life snake he is.Phoney to the core. Bashing other people because of their political beliefs is way out of line for ANY "christian" or person of other faiths to do.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. Billy Is Not Responsible For Franklin...

And Billy Graham has been a friend to all presidents... He was good buddies with Clinton....


And if Franklin Graham said liberals can't go to Heaven he's not even being true to his own beliefs...

He should read the Third Chapter Of The Book Of John...

It doesn't mention anything about political ideology as a prerequisite for having eternal life...

[noamnety]

54. He IS responsible for Franklin's words

Not because of their family relationship, but because Franklin is CEO of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association. Billy Graham has given him the authority to speak on his behalf.

Let me rephrase that - Billy Graham has given a man who says liberals are going to hell, a man who has said that Islam is a wicked evil religion, authority to speak on his behalf.

[noamnety]

35. he doesn't slam gays?

"All homosexuals should be castrated."

-- Billy Graham


Is that your definition of a positive message of salvation?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. Can I Have A Link?

eom

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. More....

Billy Graham is as wrong on homosexuality as was the Pope and 90% of religious leaders....


My point is that he doesn't go out of his way to bash gays...

He talks about leading folks to Christ....


He's not like fundy lunatics who single out gays, liberals , or Arabs for opprobrium...

[noamnety]

41. you're a good apologist

He says flat out that homosexuality is wrong, and that they need to be counseled so they can be cured.

"Not going out of his way" to bash them is pretty lame praise. What does that mean? He makes sure they are aware of their lack of self-worth and the fact that they are going to hell, but he says it politely, without yelling?

Teaching intolerance is not a positive message of salvation.

[noamnety]

40. here you go

http://www.religioustolerance.org/quotes3.htm

He apologized for that, too.

I guess it's okay to be racist, homophobic, whatever, so long as once you're caught, you say "oops, my bad."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. Here's The Pope

"Pope John Paul II's position on homosexuality only grewn more intransigent and harsh over time. In his 2005 book Memory and Identity, John Paul labeled homosexuality an “ideology of evil,” saying when discussing gay marriage that, “It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man.”

http://atheism.about.com/od/popejohnpaulii/a/homosexuality.htm



I'm not aplogizing for anybody's homophobia only putting it in a theological context...


I'm not a theologian but I'll give you my take... We are all created in God's image and he knows what is in our hearts and loves all people who do good regardless of who they fall in love with...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. Here's Billy Graham

The following exchange occurred in an interview on the 20/20 television program, May 2, 1997:

HUGH DOWNS: \"I\’d like to get your opinion also about homosexuality, what do you feel about that?\”

BILLY GRAHAM: \"Yes, well I think that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin, but the Bible also teaches that pride is a sin, jealously is a sin, and hate is a sin, evil thoughts are a sin, and so I don\’t think that homosexuality should be chosen as the overwhelming sin that we are doing today.\”


I don't agree with either men but I'll leave it to the reader to decide whose view is more benign...

[noamnety]

55. It's not a contest.

Why not call a spade a spade? Billy Graham is homophobic, and spreads intolerance towards gays. I'm not impressed that he says it's not any worse than other sins.

Saying at least he's not as bad as the pope doesn't excuse it.

[CubsFan1982]

5. It's lowered in honor of a head of state.

The same as if the Queen of England died. There is precedent for it: it was lowered when Paul VI and John Paul I died (not sure about John XXIII or before), when de Gaulle died, when Churchill, George VI, and Queen Victoria died. It's not for religious reasons and is done quite often. Stop trying to make an issue out of something that is not.

[Democrats_win]

9. It is, people died for that flag, they didn't die for the Pope.

I don't think people would be too happy if we did it for the Queen. We get pissed if a first lady even considers curtsying to her. The Queen laughs in the lap of luxury while her subjects suffer. She didn't say I'll take a pay cut so we can pay the miners better in the 1980's.

[CubsFan1982]

14. Give it a rest, will you.

You're just trying to start something. It'd be different if you actually had a valid point to argue and not some stale boilerplate radical rhetoric.

[oscar111]

32. Ayotallahs head of State too! Lower flag for Ayotallahs?

Would you like that?

Better to never lower it. Avoid these time wasting discussions.

[CubsFan1982]

34. If the President proclaims it...

You bet your ass.

It's called respect, even for those you disagree with. Something apparently you and the OP never learned.

[oscar111]

38. Respect is authoritarianism

better to adopt the idea of Rene Descartes

Question all.

that opened the way for science to replace Scholasticism and "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin"

Respect leads to enslavement, to blind obedience, to rip offs.

Enron was the industry leader. Respect it?

Hitler ruled all europe. Respect?

I unlearned respect.

[Democrats_win]

6. Honor him another way, honor Americans this way especially considering

the religious aspect of this world leader. Americans fight for freedom of religion, this isn't right.

[FreedomAngel82]

48. What I think

is if you're Catholic it's fine but if you're not you shouldn't have to lower your flag since the pope didn't mean something to you like it does to other people. I have mixed feelings myself. And I think it was out of line to say soliders died for the pope. :wtf: They died because Bush was oil hungry. Doy. They're just trying to appeal to the Catholic voters.

[MichiganVote]

8. Well at the rate things are going,

might as well leave it at half mast all the time. Every other week its going down in one state or another for the death of soldiers. Sort of defeats the purpose to do it for all the world's leaders and so on.

[FreedomAngel82]

50. Yep

And where was Bush saying to lower your flag for them?! Where was a nation wide funeral for all the one's we have lost?! Where was he at ONE soliders funeral?! Asshole.

[Walt Starr]

12. Fuck that disrespectful bullshit!

I'll fly my flag how I choose when I choose. You have no fucking say over how I fly my flag!

[Democrats_win]

21. Go fight for your pope pay his taxes, religions in America are deadbeats

The Pope's churches don't pay taxes, we honor him that way too. Fuck all religion.

[FARAFIELD]

23. ???

Fuck all religion? Thats a pretty brash statement. Ive been Catholic all my life and a progressive Dem for the last 25 years or so, i dont see why that cant coexist. Perhaps you should remember what gramma said which is "if you dont have something nice to say, dont say anything"

[guinivere]

49. There are Catholics in Iraq right now

There are also Christians, Jews, Buddhists etc. over in Iraq right now. All fighting and dying, while you sit at your computer.

[Walt Starr]

13. Fuck that disrespectful bullshit!

I'll fly my flag how I choose when I choose. You have no fucking say over how I fly my flag!

[realisticphish]

15. lowering the flag is a sign of respect

it is done for any world leader that dies. It has nothing to do with religion, or catholicism.

[oscar111]

37. Khomeni was also a world mover and shaker, Head Of State

lower the flag for such?

And the other Ayotallahs now in power?

No, never to lower a flag is a better policy. Lowering Gets into useless arguments

Respect is BTW, an authoritarian personality trait.

Rene Descartes had a better attitude:

Question all.

[porphyrian]

19. Catholicism is a form of government.

It has been since its inception. Thank Constantine for making it Christian as well.

[FARAFIELD]

22. hey there

Hmmmm, seems to me its the least we can do for a world leader. Maybe im prejudiced because im Catholic, but JPII was a great man.

[Maiden England]

24. that little annoying matter of freedom

you remember, that we all have? Well that gives us the right to fly at half mast in recognition of the life of a recently passed head of state. Be they head of a religion or not. Spiritual leader of over a billion people, thats no small matter.
Besides, I fly the flag at half mast, not for myself, because I am a Jew, but in respect for my friends and neighbors who are Catholic and whom are mourning his passing. We shouldn't be flying the flag out of self interest anyhow.


In the meantime, its a sunday afternoon, and mmmn I smell pizza cooking....;)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. do you make your own pizza from scratch

eom

[Malva Zebrina]

26. To tell the truth, I don't know what the soldiers died for

at all. That is sad.

It is pretty clear now they were sent to do something illegal. It is pretty clear, if preserving the American way, was the motivation, that it is severely compromised. And, it is clear, they will continue to be used as fodder for an insane man, pursuing an insane foreign policy, telling lie after lie after lie.

[FreedomAngel82]

53. Pure oil

That's it. If you haven't watch the Greg Palast BBC segment on Iraq and oil. You can find it on his website at http://www.gregpalast.com It's all a bunch of b.s.

[Pinboy]

29. Flag is lowered for foreign dignitaries by presidential proclamation:

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
April 2, 2005
President Bush Orders Flags Flown at Half Staff in Honor of Pope John Paul II

A Proclamation by the President of the United States of America

As a mark of respect for His Holiness Pope John Paul II, I hereby order, by the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America, that the flag of the United States shall be flown at half staff at the White House and on all public buildings and grounds, at all military posts and naval stations, and on all naval vessels of the Federal Government in the District of Columbia and throughout the United States and its Territories and possessions until sunset on the day of his interment. I also direct that the flag shall be flown at half staff for the same period at all United States embassies, legations, consular offices, and other facilities abroad, including all military facilities and naval vessels and stations.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this second day of April, in the year of our Lord two thousand five, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and twenty ninth.

GEORGE W. BUSH

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/04/20050402-3.html

[oscar111]

33. respect? Love the church, but dislike the record of this clergyman

so much done wrong, so many harmed.

harmed in the extreme.

Let's be honest about a RW person.

Seperate the beauty of the Church and its good elements, from a RW person that worked in it.

Make the effort to seperate pomp and ceremony from the policies being pushed.

When you see great archetecture, great art, hear great music, reflect on the artisans, ... dont lose your critical faculties.

Question all.

Keep that in mind. It shovels away tons of harmful policies that pomp dumps upon us.

Obedience is the opposite of "question all".

Obedience leads to Third Reichs with Adolph at the helm. If the germans had had Rene Descartes attitude {Question all}... then hitler would have lived out his life as a painter of plesant forest scenery. We could have skipped Dachau, skipped the razing of Warsaw, skipped the murder of fifty million.

Question all.

Avoid that thing called "respect".
It is a foundation stone for authoritarianism. "Obedience" is another. Both lead to danger.

Question all

[Disturbed]

45. Was the American flag lowered for...

Arafat?

[lonestarnot]

44. No worry bout the flag no more, mine in da trash! Blew down and not

buying another one that is made in China.

[EFerrari]

46. I wonder in what sense this thread is constructive?

The Pope is a head of state. We routinely honor those losses.

If *you* disagree with a head of state being also the head of a church, that is *your* privilege and responsbilit. Last time I looked, the United States doesn't get to edit the cultures of other countries. (Unless, of course, we invade them. lol)

Still have no clue as to why this thread was started or responded to. There's so many more useful things we could be talking about.

If I'm wrong, please show me how.

B.

/typing

[guinivere]

51. Ranting for the sake of ranting. n/t

[jonnyblitz]

52. some of us have figured out how to multi-task.

:eyes:

[EFerrari]

56. Oh! Got it! : )

[oscar111]

58. PS how could silence be constructive?

there is a part of authoritarianism, which promotes the idea of

dont talk.

The "strong silent type" is a result.

They fail to communicate, and make very poor parents.

This thread is constructive. Silence is not. Silence builds great ignorance.

[EFerrari]

60. False dilemna. Between silence and aggression lies discourse?

I think DU has done an outstanding job of surfing this last. What, between the loss of this guy, for those of us who hate him, who love him, and everythng inbetween, whatEVER, because this man was one of the most influential people of the 20th century, between surfing the MSM's nauseating coverage, between surfing what hay the wingnuts will make of this and what all the mourning liberal (ex)Catholics like me have to surf, what the rest of us will have to handle insofar as this man did head up one of the biggest roadblocks to basic human rights.

This is not a bingo game. This is Big Casino. And DU has risen to the challenge. :wow:

We've done a good job of just trying to get through it. I for one thank DU. I don't disagree with any critic of Church or Pope and yet have been chucked into mourning for this man who tried to DO something.

So, first can we begin with our agreement and then think about our disagreements? In this climate, if we can, Skinner will have to hire a bus to take us all out to ice cream. I prefer plain vanilla.

/spell check not available

peace,
Beth

[oscar111]

57. thread clarifies the issue of seperation of church and state

also, of seperation in our own heads,
of one RW clergyman, from the Church itself.

The Church has many LW branches, which do good things.

Many havent yet made those distinctions.

[EFerrari]

59. Well, no, it doesn't .

The separation of Church and State is a U.S. (endangered) tradition, not a universal one.

Oh dear. I should just stfu, but, our values are not universally agreed with. And this habit of disrespecting other peoples because their traditions, customs, cultures differ from ours just isn't very useful. It doesn't help us clarify our own issues and doesn't help us in our relationships with other countries.

(Having said that, I can't remember when this separation was more threatened or contorted here at home.)

And you're right. Let's be thoughtful and keep making those distinctions -- no matter how hard Bu$hco tries to totalize our thinking.

B.

[Moderator]

61. Locking....

This is inflammatory.



DU Moderator