Functioning with "no detectable brain" (tangential Schiavo content)

[Minstrel Boy]

I'm not disputing the diagnosis of Persistent Vegitative State, but when I read people talking about her brain having liquified, and what the CAT scans show, I'm reminded of a documentary I saw, maybe 10 years ago or more, about certain sufferers of hydrocephalus.

These people were perfectly normal, except for the fact they had virtually no brain at all. CAT scans revealed just a thin crust of tissue. Everything else was spinal fluid. What remained had adapted, and compensated for the loss of the bulk of their brain matter. The scans were unbelieveable. These were people who had no idea there was anything different about them.

Here's something of what I'm talking about:

"When Sheffield’s campus doctor was treating one of the mathematics students for a minor ailment, he noticed that the student’s head was a little larger than normal. The doctor referred the student to professor Lorber for further examination.

"The student in question was academically bright, had a reported IQ of 126 and was expected to graduate. When he was examined by CAT-scan, however, Lorber discovered that he had virtually no brain at all.

"Instead of two hemispheres filling the cranial cavity, some 4.5 centimetres deep, the student had less than 1 millimetre of cerebral tissue covering the top of his spinal column. The student was suffering from hydrocephalus, the condition in which the cerebrospinal fluid, instead of circulating around the brain and entering the bloodstream, becomes dammed up inside.

"Normally, the condition is fatal in the first months of childhood. Even where an individual survives he or she is usually seriously handicapped. Somehow, though, the Sheffield student had lived a perfectly normal life and went on to gain an honours degree in mathematics. This case is by no means as rare as it seems. In 1970, a New Yorker died at the age of 35. He had left school with no academic achievements, but had worked at manual jobs such as building janitor, and was a popular figure in his neighbourhood. Tenants of the building where he worked described him as passing the days performing his routine chores, such as tending the boiler, and reading the tabloid newspapers. When an autopsy was performed to determine the cause of his premature death he, too, was found to have practically no brain at all. Professor Lorber has identified several hundred people who have very small cerebral hemispheres but who appear to be normal intelligent individuals. Some of them he describes as having ‘no detectable brain’, yet they have scored up to 120 on IQ tests."
http://www.alternativescience.com/no_brainer.htm

As I said, I don't dispute Schiavo's medical diagnosis. But saying heatedly "she doesn't have a brain!" is not really a diagnosis.

Hey, my first Schiavo thread! :hi:

[democrat in Tallahassee]

1. has anyone examined Herr Bush?

[Tesla]

3. Now we have proof it can happen!!!

[grannylib]

4. *lololol* hee hee! No need to ....I've seen the videos! I can diagnose

him from here. It's Oz syndrome. He has 3 of 4 classic symptoms:
No brain
No heart
No courage
He DOES, however, have a home: a 23-room country mansion complete with swimmin' pool (he calls it a ranch, but the only 'crop' is brush that needs clearin')and I bet he's really happy that the 'liberal media' make it seem all down home and folksy by reportin' from in front of a phony backdrop that sheeple THINK is "The Ranch" and it makes him seem all regular-like.

[grannylib]

2. Wow, that's some really good evidence for the notion that we really use

very little of what's actually there! I have heard of such cases, and they are really intriguing.
You make a good point that the lack of what would normally be considered a functioning brain does not necessarily mean lack of function. Wonder what differences, if any, there are between a hydrocephalic condition and one like Terri's, in which the brain that DID exist has BECOME liquefied, rather than not having existed in the usual sense and being SURROUNDED by cerebro-spinal fluid?
I'd be willing to bet, however, that there are no cases in which a case like Terri's has reversed itself.

[Nevernose]

20. That's an old wive's tale

No pun intended, Grannylib, but the notion that we don't use all of our brain (or only 1% or 10% or whatever) is just an old wive's tale.

Like yo9u, though, I do wonder about the difference between Schiavo's case and hydrocephalous, since my (now ex-)wife had hydrocephalous as a child and while cured, has the occasional recurring side-effect to this day.

[BlueEyedSon]

5. If the injury/damage happens in infancy the remaining brain tissue

may compensate. In adulthood....ehhh... not so much.

[Az]

6. In such cases

While there may be substantially less brain present than normal the brain that does exist is interconnected. In other words the infrastructure of the brain is present but in small portions.

All that is needed to create a sentient and possibly intelligent mind exists in these cases. The mind arises from the interconnections formed in the cerebral cortex. As long as the infrastructure is intact a mind can exist.

In Schiavo's case the cerebral cortex that gave rise to her mind was catostrophically destroyed. The initial trama caused the loss of consciousness and destroyed much of the interconnecting structure of her mind. Over the next 15 years the damage continued. Till this time she has an estimated 10% of her original cerebral cortex left and none of it interconnected in anything resembling the original structure that gave rise to her mind.

In a nutshell its not just a question of quantity. The person that Terri was is destroyed. It was contained in the 90% that was liquified. Even if a structure could be propped up from the remaining 10% it would have little to do with who Terri was. But even that is beyond hope. It's like trying to rebuild a soap bubble.

[AlienGirl]

22. Thank you for the explanation

While I disagree with you about the "person" being entirely material, that's a good explanation of how the hardware in the brain can be proportionately reduced but still function.

Have you read Shufflebrain?

Tucker

[Az]

23. Understood

Not everyone is on the same page concerning the origin of where the mind rises from. Suffice to say that for my take on the matter the brain is the end all and be all of the mind.

I have not heard of the book Shufflebrain. Any comments on it you wish to give will be appreciated.

[AlienGirl]

25. It can be found here:

http://www.indiana.edu/~pietsch/home.html

A sample: "Stored mind is not thing. It is abstract relationships produced by things. In the sense of ratios, angles, square roots, mind is a mathematic. No wonder it's hard to fathom." The author is adamant that it doesn't imply dualism, though.


Tucker

[Az]

33. I read up a bit on the theory last night

Have to say I am very skeptical of it. I suspect he is misdiagnosing the distributed nature of the brain. We can track memories and emotions as the mind recovers them and while dispersed throughout the brain they are not dispersed to all the brain. The distributed nature of the brain helps in times of injury and disease where localised damage may occur.

But there are far too many examples of localised damage creating major shifts in memory and personality. The case of John Gage is a classic example of how a limited injury to the brain can produce a profound shift in the mind. If the brain were truly holographi in nature then nothing short of total eradication would render it nullified. Yet very small injuries and disruptions can lead to major disfunction.

[MissMarple]

32. As I understand it, spinal fluid replaced the cerebral cortex

as it deteriorated. If so her cortex didn't "liquefy", per se.

It's not a major point, but liquefied brains? Gack!!!. :-)

[whistle]

7. hydrocephalus is a totally different condition for what Terri Schiavo

...has:

<snip>

What is hydrocephalus?

The term hydrocephalus is derived from the Greek words "hydro" meaning water and "cephalus" meaning head. As its name implies, it is a condition in which the primary characteristic is excessive accumulation of fluid in the brain. Although hydrocephalus was once known as "water on the brain," the "water" is actually cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) - a clear fluid surrounding the brain and spinal cord. The excessive accumulation of CSF results in an abnormal dilation of the spaces in the brain called ventricles. This dilation causes potentially harmful pressure on the tissues of the brain.

<link> http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/hydrocephalus/detail_hydrocephalus.htm

People with hydrocephalus have working brains which may be normal or only partially damaged. By controlling the fluid build up, these patients can lead useful functioning lives.

Terri's cortex according to all of the doctors who have physically examined and tested Terri is damaged beyond any hope of ever being restored, even partially. The thinking part of Terri's brain is dead.

[Minstrel Boy]

10. The original post describes people with "no detectable brain,"

who had no idea fluid build-up needed controlling.

As I said, I trust the judgement of professionals who have examined Schiavo. I just won't make armchair diagnoses based on CAT scans.

[whistle]

31. Stranger things exist than we can possibliy imagine....

...I do grant that.
<snip>

The Extended Mind
By Rupert Sheldrake

My idea of the existence of the mind beyond the physical brain is what I call the extended mind. I would like to suggest that the mind is much more extensive than the brain and stretches out through fields that I call morphic fields. Morphic fields, like the known fields of physics, are non-material regions of influence extending in space and continuing in time. They are localized within and around the systems they organize. When any particular organized system ceases to exist, as when an atom splits, a snowflake melts, an animal dies, its organizing field disappears from that place. But in another sense, morphic fields do not disappear: they are potential organizing patterns of influence, and can appear again physically in other times and places, wherever and whenever the physical conditions are appropriate. When they do so they contain with themselves a memory of their previous physical existences (The Presence of the Past pxiii). Because the existence of these fields has intrigued me for a long time, I have developed experiments which do provide strong evidence for them as a scientific hypothesis.

We are all familiar with fields that extend from material objects; the most obvious example is a magnet. The magnet is a physical, material object you can hold in your hand, but it has a region of influence stretching all around it—the magnetic field—that is invisible and can have effects over distance.

Another, more modern example is the cellular phone. The material object you hold in your hand has a material composition which you can weigh and analyze, but its function depends on much more that its material constituents. It depends on invisible fields that stretch out far beyond the limits of the cell phone itself and its whole function depends upon those extended fields. Likewise, the fields of our mind are rooted in the brain, but they extend out far beyond it in accordance with our attentions and intentions.

The idea that the mind is more extensive than the brain is not a new idea, but is found in the ancient philosophies of Greece and India and in Buddhist traditions. It is something Theosophists have been talking about for a long time as well.

<more>
<link> http://www.theosophical.org/theosophy/questmagazine/julyaugust03/sheldrake/

[Virginian]

8. Part of brain removed in childhood, the rest compensates.

I have read about children who have had portions of their brains removed due to tumors or epilepsy where the remaining brain compensates.
Instead of waiting until after her death to examine her brain, shouldn't she have had scans of her brain activity to determine if she had abnormally high activity in a normally quiet area of the brain?
I know she was too old to redirect her brain activity the way a child does, but still, if there is a doubt in the minds of loved ones about her cognitive function, shouldn't she be tested?

I'm sure the doctors have done all the tests necessary. They know this case better than I ever will. I rely on their judgment.

I told my husband tonight that if I were in her situation and someone wanted me to continue to exist as a vegetable as much as her parents do, what difference would it make to me that they didn't carry out my wishes. She'll never know. Go ahead and feed her. It makes the parents feel so much better to have her warm body around.

[Donailin]

14. well because that's utilitarianism

>>I told my husband tonight that if I were in her situation and someone wanted me to continue to exist as a vegetable as much as her parents do, what difference would it make to me that they didn't carry out my wishes. She'll never know. Go ahead and feed her. It makes the parents feel so much better to have her warm body around.<<

you know, staying alive to make the parents feel better about themselves.

[vonSchloegel]

16. yeah

what's the problem with feeding her?

Even a houseplant or goldfish has value if somebody loves it, and wants to keep it alive.

[seemslikeadream]

19. My worst fears are confirmed

[Swamp Rat]

26. LOL!

:rofl:

[seemslikeadream]

28. Oh my sweet Swampy thang want another laugh?

kokofitz says

Since it seems to be of interest to you, I'll tell you what I did for a living before I retired. I was a teacher. For a time, I worked with the migrant worker education program run by my local district during my summer break. Do you want me to grade your post for grammar, construction, and quality?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1346555#1347661


grade your post for grammar, construction, and quality

:rofl: :spray: :rofl: :spray: :rofl: :spray: :rofl: :spray: :rofl: :spray: :rofl: :spray: :rofl: :spray: :rofl: :spray:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1345928#1347537

[Swamp Rat]

30. "Laziness and sloppiness exist in all cultures..." Oh, the irony!!!

That was fun! :D

[LibertyLover]

29. Brain scans

From what I understand, scans for brain activity such as MRIs and PETs were not possible for Ms. Schiavo due to the electrodes which had been implanted in her skull as part of the extensive therapy she underwent in California. I agree that a PET scan would have been particularly revealing and may have cleared up some doubts and concerns her family had for her state.

[Avalux]

9. Schiavo's EEG is flat

there's no brain activity. The article you've posted is interesting but not comparable to her diagnosis.

[Minstrel Boy]

11. And as I said,

ah, nevermind.

[Avalux]

12. I see -

the article proves that people "without brains" can function. So yes - I agree with your point.

[Minstrel Boy]

13. thanks

Perhaps I shouldn't even have mentioned Schiavo, because I'm not meaning to equate their cases with hers. I only mention her in this context because I believe only medical professionals who have examined her are qualified to judge her mental capacities. Pointing at CAT scans proves nothing.

[grannylib]

21. Yes, I suppose that's true. Would the CAT scan of a person with

hydrocephalus look pretty similar to Terri Schiavo's, I wonder? Probably...

[barb162]

18. Saw 3 MDs on CNN discussing this tonight, one said this and the

other two jumped all over him for being wrong. Sanjay Guptah (sic?)of CNN was one of the MDs that jumped all over the guy who made the comment about the flat EEG, saying it was false.

[shrub chipper]

15. When I read the thread title,

I thought it was going to be about Joe Scarborough and Sean Hannity.

[Virginian]

17. Yeah, they use their brains as little as a teen ager.

Joe Scarborough and Sean Hannity that is.

[NickB79]

24. This from the same website that proposes that

1: the core of the sun is powered by cold fusion (Is the Sun Hot?)

2: there are nuclear fusion reactions going on inside individual cells that can transmute one element into another (Planting Evidence)

3: mass ESP to win lotteries that can be predicted based on solar conditions (Lottery ESP)

I think I'll take this with a fairly large grain of salt (and then transmute it into gold :-))

[Minstrel Boy]

27. As I said, I didn't just find this on the Internet.

I first saw this on a documentary, and it wasn't on the Comedy Channel. I saw the CAT scans. I saw interviews with the individuals. That memory is what sent me to the Internet, and with the broadest of search parameters this is the first thing I found. I've since learned this article isn't original with the site you find dubious, and was first published in Science.