Whoops! There it is! Rumsfeld admits we can't achieve military victory

[MadHound]

On NPR this morning, Steve Inskeep did an interview with Donald Rumsfeld in which Rumsfeld admits that the US cannot achieve a military victory over the insurgents in Iraq, that only a political victory can be achieved against the insurgents, and such a political victory must be achieved by the Iraqi people.

So, if we can't achieve a military victory, and it is up to the Iraqi people to achieve the political victory, what the fuck are we doing in Iraq then? No WMD, no terrorist connection, no achievable military victory, sounds like we should get the hell out NOW!

Here's the link for the full interview<http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4567034>

[iconoclastNYC]

1. Do you think we should do what we did in Afghanistan?

Cut and run and let Iraq turn into a failed state and a breeding ground for terrorism? Or should we let it be such a weak state that Iran will take it over?

I was against the war but we really have mitigate the disaster as best we can. I want the troops home ASAP but we have to be sure the Iraqis have control of the situation first or we'll have to go back in to restore order. I say fix it right the first time.

And the next time our leaders get the wise idea to destroy a country I'm going to do more to prevent it.

[morgan2]

3. your position

assumes the US army is there to help Iraq and not promote US businesses. The solution to protecting the hens from fighting each other is not to keep the fox in there.

[PsN2Wind]

4. Iraq is now

a failed state and breeding ground for terrorism. If we allow truly independent and fair elections, they will become a de facto annex of Iran because of their religious ties.
So, to meet the conditions you express, we'll have to stay there forever.

[jmatthan]

34. How little you know about the region

Iraqis are Iraqis, Iranians are Iranians!!

It is like saying that the Pope rules every country which is largely Roman Catholic - Ireland, Northern Ireland, Phillipines....

What utter garbage.

Troops out and the region can sort out its own problems without help from a set of greedy land and resource grabbers.

Jacob Matthan
http://jmpolitics.blogspot.com
Oulu, Finland

[PsN2Wind]

36. I want the troops out

And I don't equate the RC countries with Muslim countries. And if you don't believe that the two countries both under control of the Shia's will bring them closer together that is fine. But if you are going to come in here making your pompous statements, i.e. "What utter garbage", why don't you pungle up a couple of bucks and buy a fucking star?

[jmatthan]

37. When will you accept the facts

India has the largest Muslim population in the world.

A major proportion of them are Shiites.

Does them make them part of the Iraq-Iran axis?

Yes, I reiterate that what was said is utter garbage!!

I would certainly buy a star than think that America is a democracy!!

Jacob Matthan
http://jmpolitics.blogspot.com
Oulu, Finland

[PsN2Wind]

39. Normally I don't reply

more than once to people I feel are freeloaders but here I'll make an exception. The 12% of India that is Muslim is nicely counter-balanced by the 82% that are Hindu. So I don't envision India Muslims driving policy there.

[jmatthan]

40. So why not Indonesia, or ...

I am glad you condescended to reply - but when you do that, kindly give all the facts.

There are many Muslim nations and they are all independent. (I wrongly stated India had the largest Muslim population in the world - Indonesia does. India is fourth with a population of over 125 million Muslims compared to about 20 million each in Iraq and Iran!)

Proximity does not mean subservience.

You have no concept of Asian democracy and nationalism.

Iraqis are proud people and value their own ancient heritage.

Even the basic language of these countries is different - Iran has Farsi while Iraq uses Arabic.

Indian Muslims are not "balanced" by Hindus - they are Indian!! They think Indian, they believe India and it has nothing to do with the balancing act you are talking about!!

You sound like the Hindu fundamentalists who talk about controlling the Muslim population in India as otherwise they will call for merger with Pakistan!!

Muslims in a country owe first loyalty to their country and then to their religion. They are not the brainless fundamentalists that you are making them out to be.

That is the Bush agenda and not what I expect in this forum.

Jacob Matthan
Correspondence with an "educated" American
http://koti.netplaza.fi/~findians/AntiWar/USEducated/educated.html
Oulu, Finland

[PsN2Wind]

41. Well Jacob, you're the expert

except evidently on the Indian Muslim population.

[The Magistrate]

42. Actually, Mr. Matthan

Thr possibility you are speaking against is a real one, at least in some form.

The ties betweenm the Shi'ites in the south of Iraq and the Shi'ites of Iran are close ones, and operative particularly at the level of the clerical leadership. In a case where an Iraqi government was dominated by Shi'ite elements, a close co-operation between Iran and Iraq could be expected, and in a case where Iraq fragmented, a satillite dependence of the Shi'ite portion on Iran could certainly be expected.

People in Iraq are certainly proud of an ancient heritage, but it is not an Iraqi hertitage, nor even viewed particularly as such: it is a sense of ancient civilization dating to old Sumer, and a more recent attachment to a late Caliphite based on the then new city of Baghdad. From the time of Mongol conquest into the dawn of the modern era, the area now known as Iraq was a mere border march between Turkish and Persian overlords, ruled by whichever was the stronger at the moment. The strongest local ties of the people were tribal, and ethnic, and sectarian, not national. It is certainly true that Arabs and Persians do not much like one another, as a general rule, but the Shi'ite Arabs have long been accustomed to a certain solidarity with their fellow Shi'ites, even though they are Persian, for they are allies and have been protectors in the past against persecution by Sunni Arabs.

It is an interesting part of the world, that repays study, and has no simple answers, nor offers many clear-cut policy choices.

[PsN2Wind]

43. Thanks for showing up "The Magistrate"

Now he can tell you that you're posting "garbage" just because he doesn't agree with your thoughts. I've no more time for him.

[jmatthan]

44. Maybe you think that I do not know Shiites!!

My childhood friend and late business co-director for many years was a leading Shiite. I was a member of his family - that means that his sisters, wife and daughters could appear before me without the burkah.

His late father, one of the foremost and leading Judges in India, was the centre of the Shiite community in Southern India. (Look up the Mir Iqbal Hussain Commission if you want to see how respected he was in the Indian judiciary.)

I just happen to have discoursed with him on many aspects of the subject of Shiites for many many years.
They all owe allegiance to the Khomeini, but that does not compromise their national identity. When the Ayatollah was being featured daily on the newspapers in the 1970's it became impossible to even read the newspaper in the toilet!! That is their respect they show for their religious head.

Yes, I certainly know Shiites from all over the world, including many many from Iraq - as besides my actual contact with them as a family for many decades I have personally worked with Iraqi refugees (Shiites and Christians, Arabs and Kurds) in Europe for several years.

If what I write is not acceptable to you, so be it.

But to justify Americans staying in Iraq because the Iranians and Iraqis Shiites may form an axis is just plain rubbish. That is the view to justify continued American presence in Iraq!!

Get American troops out of there and you will see a stable Iraq and Iran within four weeks!!

Nothing but American meddling around the world is the cause of most of the trouble in different world centres. An excellent example is the sale of F-16s to Pakistan "to counter the terrorist threat"!!

Rubbish, garbage, call it anything you want - but that is what it is.

The recent report on American intelligence shows that they don't know a damned thing about the region. Americans have been fed that as their breakfast, lunch and dinner. Try to find out from people who know rather than people who produce American intelligence reports or journalists who write to an agenda!!

Many Americans claim to be "experts" about other parts of the world while their own country is in ruins. Hardly a democracy. A theocracy trying to lecture the world on democracy. Americans have thrown their beautiful constitution out of the window and want the rest of the world to be their subordinates!! The evil American Empire.

Some of you are starting to sound like my "educated" American correspondent!!

http://koti.netplaza.fi/~findians/AntiWar/USEducated/educated.html

And if you do not like the truth, then just press the ignore button for me - and become a true red blind Bushite!!

Jacob Matthan
Correspondence with and"educated" American
http://koti.netplaza.fi/~findians/AntiWar/USEducated/educated.html
Oulu, Finland

[MadHound]

5. Read up on your Vietnam history friend.

The same excuses that you're expounding are the same excuses that kept us in Vietnam for years. We can't fix what we broke, for by the time we fix it, something else is broken, or we turn around and break what we have just fixed. It turns into a never ending vicious cycle of death and destruction. And quite frankly, the only way that this cycle is going to end is for us to get the hell out of there ASAP.

Look at Vietnam. Despite the dire warnings of chaos, and never ending civil war in the area, Vietnam became a peaceful, productive country after only a short period of turmoil. I suspect that that is what will happen when we leave Iraq. No matter what we do, anything that the US touches, including the government set up under our auspices, is going to be considered illegit and illegal by the Iraqi people. It will be torn down as soon as we leave, and the Iraqi people will set up their own institutions in place of it. All we are doing, all that we will do by continuing to be in country is to prolong the misery, inflicting more death and destruction on innocents. It is time for us to get out of Iraq now, no excuses.

[iconoclastNYC]

8. You raise good points.

But there are huge difference between Vietnam and Iraq.

The biggest being that Vietnam doesn't sit on huge ammounts of the lifeblood of the world economy.

I don't think we'll be in Iraq much longer honestly. I just think this whole...pull...out....now thing is a little too simplistic.

Edited to add:

I would support the anti-war movement pushing for a pull out date. I think there is a good case to be made that if you set a date, and you make your best effort, you had better just stick to that date or else we will end up in a Vietnam scenario.

We need to set a date and stick to it, if we can't get it right by then, well we better just deal with the fact that BUSH fucked up majorly and that oil aint going to come to market any time soon. ;)

[Inland]

13. Choosing the least of two evils.

Now that the chimp in chief has managed to invite the entire terrorist world to Iraq to kill us, and is creating new soldiers agaisnt the US daily, we have to choose between a)a long, probably futile occupation costing four bil a month and thousands of American lives or 2) abandonment to the terrorists we let in and to the civil war currently in a low level of violence.

Here's the way I think of it: having a long occupation turn to something good would require careful planning, good execution, brave leadership along with a lot of luck. Kerry would have given it a run. But Bush? Rummy? Condi? That group of lying, dissembling, ass covering fuckups? You might as well throw in the towel. This group has less interest in Iraq work than they have in avoiding blame. Bush is reelected and suddenly HIS mission is accomplished.

That pretty much leaves no. 2.

[iconoclastNYC]

16. I agree.

It's a horrible situation.

I hope the anti-war movement can move to a pro-active mode somehow. I'm not sure how.

That we have soldiers dieing and are bankrupting the treasury in IRAQ is a big problem. But a bigger problem is that it is so easy for Republicans to lie us into a war.

What can we do to fix that problem?

This issue, like so many comes back to the fact that the left needs to come together, pool resources towards fundamental steps that help all issues, goals of the left.

If all these major left-wing groups pooled 10% of thier dollars for 5 years, woudln't we be able to form an independant cable news network? Woudln't this help all of the left?

[MadHound]

15. Actually, Vietnam is sitting on some large oil supplies,

And that is one of the least known reasons that we got involved. There was lots of American corporate enthusiasm for the oil potential in the Gulf of Tonkin, and that enthusiasm is what really got us involved in 'Nam, much like the present scenario we see in Iraq.

And the anti-war movement is pushing for a pull out date, and that date is NOW. You may think that it is simplistic to aim for such a goal, but honestly now, do you really think that we are going to achieve anything positive in Iraq during our continued occupation? All we will do is bring about more death and destruction, and further enraging the rest of the world, especially Muslims and the ME countries.

We shouldn't be sticking around to rape Iraq for their oil, for by the time you factor in the costs of continous rebuilding of facilities, and the human toll our actions take, whatever oil we get is going to be priced waaay to high.

[caledesi]

29. Ah...remember it well - Excuse, after excuse of why we're in Nam. NT

edit: usual stuff

[tavalon]

11. I don't buy that one anymore

Iraq will disolve into bloody civil war when we leave, be it now or be it in 20 years when 100,000s of people have died. We aren't going to mitigate the disaster - we are the disaster.

[Toots]

12. The Iraqis will never have control

That is why we (Halliburton) have/has built fourteen Permanent bases for US troops. Don't you get it? We are after the oil.

[AlCzervik]

18. "We" never sent enough troops to Afghanistan in the first place

My nephew spent a year there and said there were never enough to contain the place.

[rman]

23. Officially Afghanistan is a success - and we're still there.

Disorder both in Afghanistan and Iraq started (or increased if you will) with US intervention; i don't think staying there will help to restore order.

[adwon]

30. Cut and run?

There are still over 12000 Americans in Afghanistan.

[Nostradammit]

32. The next time our leaders get the wise idea to destroy a country

I'm gonna be pretty darn tootin' mad myself!

Excellent post, iconoclastNYC.

Brilliantly insightful, cutting commentary.

Carry on, soldier!

[Larkspur]

2. Rummy setting foundation for Bush to declare withdrawal?

This way it will take heat off of the Repukes for the 2006 election. :shrug:

[salin]

6. I think something is afoot

and we need to pay attention. It is intentional staging - but for what? Fast and furious... condi says our goals for middle east democratization does not include planning for stability; we create a new secret intel list tht looks like a hit list of "instability" (so we want stable... no we dont care about stable... we cant cause stable... - all at once - they are going somewhere with this... but where? We are too distracted right now, and this isn't a good thing.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3385892&mesg_id=3385892

[Beam Me Up]

7. I think you're right.

[salin]

10. Funny thing

commission on (faulty) intel report, reportedly (in news today) states the importance of dissent (eg critical viewing) in the intell process...

But with Goss at CIA and neocons throughout the DIA and NCS, and the state dept thrown out of the intel loop ... who is there left to dissent? The crazy folks are running the show... but right now, to where exactly are they running?

[Beam Me Up]

14. Post this in your original thread as a kick--keep it consolidated.

[FreedomAngel82]

28. I agree

And funny timing too isn't it? When a lot of people are looking at Florida this comes out.

[whistle]

9. Don't forget the $360 billion spent by the U.S. on the execution...

...of Bush's Iraq War to-date. That should count for something. I mean General Dynamics, Lockeheed Martin, Halliburton, all those defence industry beneficiaries. They were removed from a very tough financial situation and now they are doing great!!!!

From the Poetry of Donald Rumsfeld

Glass Box
You know, it's the old glass box at the—
At the gas station,
Where you're using those little things
Trying to pick up the prize,
And you can't find it.
It's—

And it's all these arms are going down in there,
And so you keep dropping it
And picking it up again and moving it,
But—

Some of you are probably too young to remember those—
Those glass boxes,
But—

But they used to have them
At all the gas stations
When I was a kid.

—Dec. 6, 2001, Department of Defense news briefing


<link> http://slate.msn.com/id/2081042/

We need a Bullshit Meter icon here on DU :rant: :bullshit:

[bemildred]

17. Hey! I said that 2.5 years ago.

But does NPR want to interview me? NOOOOOOOO!

It's kind of fun to watch these weasels squirm, in a sick
sort of way. You can tell that there are all these other countries
that they really want to attack, teach a lesson to, but they
have to "stabilize" the situation in Iraq first, at least pretend
to "stabilize" it, so they can leave the impression that we "won",
and they have not been able to do that. In fact it just keeps getting
worse all the time because Dumbsfeldt and his cronies and minions have
not the foggiest clue how to do that.

They really want to let go of the tarbaby, but it just keeps getting
more and more tar on them.

[ktowntennesseedem]

19. More than one way to put out a fire.

Most obvious way of course is to take away the heat source and cool the fire with water, or to take away the source of oxygen with chemicals or some other means to choke the fire.

But sometimes the only way is to take away the flamable material, in other words, let the fire burn itself out.

This fire in Iraq is completely out of control, and all we can do is let it burn. Do what we can to keep from burning more than it has to, and make sure we fight enough to allow a safe exit, but we need to just step back and let it take its course.

Glad to see Fire Chief Rummy finally admitting it.

[TWiley]

20. Can you spell ...................... OIL?

>>>what the fuck are we doing in Iraq then? No WMD, no terrorist connection, no achievable military victory, sounds like we should get the hell out NOW!<<<<

The republi-craps lied right out of the chute. This war is about mineral wealth, and the conversion of taxpayer dollars into profits for private individuals through military intervention.

[Beam Me Up]

21. Maybe.

Maybe it is about control of the oil MARKET...which is a bit different than just about oil.

But there may be other agendas as well.

See: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3385892

[beam me up scottie]

22. kick

and recommended.

[MadHound]

24. Thanks, my first recommendation! n/t

[beam me up scottie]

25. I love this place.

nt
:applause:

[paineinthearse]

26. rummy, rummy, rummy.....

sheesh.

My brain is fried, I will add something rational.

p.s. Found this by bottom fishing, it was on page SIX with no comments in several hours. I did, however, see scores of TS posts on my journey. It's like a friggin' invasive non-native plant clogging up our waterways!

[paineinthearse]

27. Read the Feith transcript

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1686257#1686440

[MadHound]

33. Terrie Schiavo, the snakehead fish of DU

I hear you friend, it appears that the distraction tactic is alive and well. Meanwhile people, innocent men women and children are continuing to die daily, Bushco continues to ruin this country, while preparing to ruin others, and the US continues its slide into facism.

This whole TS thing has been blown waaay out of proportion, but I'm sure somebody will come along and slap me down for holding that opinion.

[Swamp Rat]

31. Donald Rumsfeld = War Criminal

[Hubert Flottz]

35. Sounds like Vietnam!

Smells like Vietnam!

[jmatthan]

38. Best advice

Accept that America lost this war, put your tail between your legs and run!!

Or is the American Texas ego going to get more innocent people killed?

Jacob Matthan
"Correspondence with an "educataed" American
http://koti.netplaza.fi/~findians/AntiWar/USEducated/educated.html
Oulu, Finland