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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:39 PM
Original message
Kerry Should Drop Out for the Good of the Party
It would be statesmanlike for Kerry to announce his withdrawal from the race because of his vote supporting the war. He could say, "America needs a president who isn't so easily caught up in the moment." He would be universally applauded, an outcome preferable to the one awaiting him now.

Kerry could cite a loss of self-confidence similar to the crisis that followed his service in Vietnam. "I thought it was a good idea at the time," he'll say. "But I was taken in!" I would certainly applaud Kerry if he did that. What he's doing now strikes me as lame and divisive. Surely by now he realizes he can't win.
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Brucey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Funny,
thanks for the laugh.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
51. Lame & Divisive "Ordinary Ta"
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 09:28 PM by UTUSN
ought to go for a Purple Heart, then THROW it against his/her governmment, then ought to be lame and divisive. but before THAT, Oridnary and the rest ought to do some military service, or even some CIVIL service, OUGHT TO serve the COUNTRY.

Ordinary Ta, Taz Hot, & Seventh Son ought to ALL just go VOTE SHRUB.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Ordinary Ta, Taz Hot, & 7th Son -- Go to Shrub n/t
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #51
63. I DID serve the country
As a VISTA volunteer doing antipoverty work in the inner city.

I also did three years doing antipoverty law in an urban legal clinic.

I now do public interest law for the poor in a large urban inner city and worked for years in antipoverty programs and for impoverished Native Americans.

So you can smoke THAT...

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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #51
64. Message Not Messenger
You ought to refresh your understanding of the Democratic Underground rules before you post something like this. My military background has nothing to do with the presidential election.

The rules are clear and reasonable. You should address yourself to the text of what was written, not to the person who posted it. It works out a lot better for everyone if you make an effort to get along. It's not difficult.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #64
97. 63 & 64, In the Cool of the Morning
Edited on Mon Sep-15-03 09:01 AM by UTUSN
I often regret some of my posts from certain nights of the week, but I'm sure you will understand that the vicious attacks on some candidates, who are DEMOCRATS btw, are SICKENING, the moreso because we JUST MIGHT have a chance to throw Shrub out on his ass.

Performing service to humanity isn't a blank check for the vicious attacks on other Dems. It's not anybody's military service or lack thereof here that is the issue, it's the attacks on a candidate's HONORABLE military record.

As for making an effort to get along, look in the mirror.

There is nothing REDEEMING in "the message" of attacking somebody's Purple Hearts, of all things.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. Don't jump the gun
Why not insist that Lieberman drop out first?
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. come off it
I support Dean over Kerry but that's just ludicrous.

He'd make a great president, war support or not.
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. I don't think he wants to win
His heart ain't in it (imho).
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
39. so sayeth the soothsayer
riiiiight.......
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. Pro war candidates look extremely bad right now
For the sake of the unity of the Democratic Party, I suggest that the the following candidates drop:

Lieberman
Kerry
Edwards
Gephardt

That will leave the following:

Dean
Graham
Kucinich
Sharpton
Moseley-Braun

and what's more, Clark could enter without any trouble.

Hawkeye-X
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diplomats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Um, the candidates you say should drop out
do better head-to-head against Bush than the others. I don't know about you, but my priority is getting rid of Bush, not telling most of our-top candidates to drop out. (BTW, I do consider Dean a top-tier candidate.)
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. Do you think we'd be at war without that vote?
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searchingforlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. I do think it would have been much harder to go to war.
The pResident was given too much leeway in the final decision and I feel that Congress abdicated responsibility.

I really admire the Senators that through caution (about re-election) to the wind and stood their ground.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. W could have gone to war without ANY vote
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #31
41. and he would have
the vote was window dressing...something to do while war plans were readied.

i knew he was going to war as soon as he made the first speech.

with or without the congress.
with or without the UN.

Kerry and Gep and all the rest knew too although they don't dare admit it else they self portray as 'irrelevent'.

so in the final analysis, this whole 'he voted for the war' crap can be viewed as nothing more than a symbolic protest against a symbolic act.

silly way to choose a president in my book.

the idea that Kerry shold drop out is the funniest thing i've read all week. hint...if Dean can't win fair and square, he won't win.

period.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. The "vote" forced idiot-boy to go before the UN
without it, he would not have.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. yeah but that was just another symbolic act. n/t
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. As opposed to?
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #47
102. as opposed to a meaningful act
bushco knew the odds were 50-50 at the UN. if he wanted war, and i think we can agree on that, and he felt a no vote would restrain him in any way, he wouldn't have gone.

he didn't care what the UN did so going there was a symbolic act.
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jcgadfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. He did both
Bush went to the UN while massing troops for the invasion.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #31
78. You are right, but Kerry's hands would not be stained with blood today
Bush was going to war no matter what, but Kerry's hands would not be stained with the blood of innocent Iraqis, and today Kerry would be the leading candidate for the Democratic nomination rather than another war criminal.
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #78
82. Kerry Brings Blood Stains on The Democratic Party
It's a conscience thing to make sure Kerry doesn't place higher than fourth in any primary. As Democrats we have to preserve humane values, because the Republicans don't give a damn about the lives of non-Americans. We can't just let Americans turn into monsters without doing something about it. Kerry did nothing; in fact he stands for nothing but more of the same with a different spin.

We can do better; in fact there's no choice. Bush has done a huge amount of damage in a short time. We need a real Democrat in the White House, and John Kerry doesn't qualify as one.

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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #78
100. stained with blood????? kerry's hands are no more stained than
the 70% of the democrats that supported the war. unless they are total hypocrites, they can't claim he is guilty of anything they wouldn't have done in his place.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #24
96. Bush HAD the votes with NO resolution.
He HAD the votes for a REAL blank check that meant NO evidence presented to Congress or the UN and a clear field to bomb Iran and Syria.

Maybe some of you should try to envision what that REAL blank check would have been like. Those Dem lawmakers were doing their JOB by negotiating the better deal. It cost them their VOTES.
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
54. yes
they had this planned before 9/11
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
6. Nobody should drop
out now. We need them all to define each other and bring out the points the others wish to make. They can get sorted out in the primaries. We have strength in this situation.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Muse precisely I agree
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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Hi MuseRider. Nice to see you. I agree. Kerry can contribute a lot. n/t
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. There is so much more
coming, it is hard with these short times they have in the debates to get the word out. They have to point out their differences quickly and with so many of them it seems easier. I think this is highly stimulating for the party. How is the Little Apple? DId you get the rain? PM if you want.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
33. agreed
in addition, these taunting threads seem to weaken that strength.
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. I Agree with Ordinary Ta
Kerry should take a hike
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
36. Who else is in your VERY EXCLUSIVE club?
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #36
90. Message Not Messenger
You should re-acquaint yourself with DU rules which strongly encourage responses to the text of threads, not to the personalities of people who post in them.

DU's rules are simple and reasonable. A little cooperation goes a long way in making this forum a more pleasant place for everyone, as I'm sure you'll recognize.

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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. I was going to try to formulate a response to this...
but why bother?

The Kerry bashing will just continue. Yes, let's have every person who ever voted against the way you think he should have voted get out of the race. Heck! They shouldn't even be allwowed in the democratic party at all! Fuck the big umbrella idea! Only candidates that have the SAME EXACT THOUGHT PROCESS AS ME should EVER be an elected official. :eyes:
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kstewart33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. I second your comment
It is so tiresome to read DUers dismissing a candidate because of a disagreement over a candidate's stand on one issue. It smacks of smug superiority. Kerry would make a fine prez, and I'm not too happy about his war vote. But so what. He's a good man and well qualified to be prez.
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DEMActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
10. This is absolutely ridiculous
I'm a Dean supporter, but for ANYone to issue an unDEMOCRATIC call for people to withdraw is utterly anthema to the democratic process and everything we, as Democrats, stand for.

The same holds true for the thread this morning calling for Arianna and Camejo to withdraw.

I'm wondering if some people on this board have even a remote understanding of the word "democratic" as in little d.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
11. *Enough* with the negative threads! (n/t)
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tjdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
13. Yes, everyone should drop out but Dean and Kucinich.
Oh, and Moseley Braun and Sharpton. :eyes:

There ARE Democrats who were for the war, you know. Those four candidates aren't the ONLY Democrats in the entire party.

Also, you are making a big assumption about the state of mind of people who aren't Democrats.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I dont think they should drop out
Kerry is my #2 choice as a matter of fact.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
17. YAWN
:boring:
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Raven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Yaaay Molly! I'll join you! Yawn, snore, snore, yawn!
:boring:
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. LoL
:boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring:
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Hell, I'LL join Molly in that yawn...
.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Me, too.
YAWN! :boring:
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. hell me too
yawn
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
45. i think the thread suggestion is ridiculous but only slightly more
so the the 'yawn' ploy.

all it does is bump the thread and prolong the death. why rescue stuff you don;t find interesting enough to comment on?

yawns = kicks...get it?
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
21. Horseshit.
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. LMAO
:D
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
25. Kerry Has ALOT To Contribute To The Debates
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 02:05 PM by cryingshame
He is not my favorite candidate by a long shot but he has a good, solid LIBERAL voting record, a history of going after corruption and his own unique perspective which adds to the Democratic debates.

I think he belongs in the Senate & needs to be there... but would be proud to call him my President and am happy to give him a chance to win that office.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
26. Oh, knock it off!
I'm sick to death of your flamebait posts. I don't give a shit WHO you support we need EVERY DEMOCRAT'S voice right now and Kerry isn't going anywhere -- nor should he.
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #26
66. You Got THAT Right!
Kerry isn't going anywhere

I certainly agree with you here, but I go a bit further. I think he should drop out now, as opposed to later on, when the voters choose a genuine Democrat.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #66
104. Oh, save it.
Don't you think we have enough effort out there trying to subvert Democracy in this country? Clinton's impeachment over a blow job, the election fraud in Florida, the re-redistricting of Colorado and Texas and the California recall. Any of these sound familiar?

We're Democrats. We believe in free and fair elections and we abide by the decision of WE THE PEOPLE. That process must be allowed to procede.

My (unsolicited) advice to you, my dear, is to cool it on the rhetoric. The fact is, we're going to need each other in the end and unity will be much harder to achieve if we've torn ourselves apart in the process.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Raven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Hey Pete! I'm highjacking here.
I heard you had a brew with my son. Thanks for keeping him company, he had kind of a difficult trip. :-)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
61. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
37. When Clark jumps in are you going to go after him too?
is it ALL military or is it just Kerry?
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CMT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
38. No need for Kerry to drop out
the primaries will decide the issue.
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tsipple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. New Hampshire Primary Will Decide
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 02:50 PM by tsipple
Just one state, probably. The state that knows him better than any other except Massachusetts itself. I agree. Let the voters decide. What's wrong with that? Calling on someone to drop out is stupid.
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disgruntella Donating Member (983 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
42. MUST... ATTACK... KERRY! ... MUST... ATTACK ... KERRY! ...
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #42
65. Kerry Calls It Strength
In justifying his appalling vote for the war on Iraq, Kerry said we should negotiate from a position of strength. But he had all the information that was available to the other members of the Senate. What Kerry calls "strength" is actually only violence, making Kerry as much a man of violence as Bush.

Hypocritical Kerry shed tears for the innocent civilians of Vietnam, but showed no compunction about authorizing unprecedented death and destruction on the people of Iraq. Although a Democrat, his values are just as twisted and amoral as those of George Bush. This man should not be president.

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. his values are just as twisted and amoral as those of George Bush.
That s a little too far.

So Kerry's not your candidate- but dont slander the guy - I cant think of any issues that Bush and Kerry have the same philosophy or approach... His platform appears to be opposite to W's on almost every issue...

Im not sure its good strategy-or even accurate to call him "twisted and amoral" - Republicans could not call him that without sounding hypocritcal- so why should DEMS do them the favor of doing it for them?



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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #68
84. Slandering Kerry
Kerry endorsed Bush's twisted, amoral war on Iraq and pretended it cost him wrenching moral anxiety. If it bothered him so much, he could have joined 23 other Senators and voted against it. This was not a tough call.

Bush wanted to bomb the hell out of densely populated areas in Iraq, and Kerry could easily have opposed it. Is Kerry significantly less of a monster for having approved of Bush's monstrous actions? I don't think so.

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #84
86. A republican could never attack him on that issue...
but luckily for Karl Rove- YOU CAN!!! Congragulations!!!

I say we let the voters decide- most voters will not blame Bush's failure to handle the war on terror on Kerry.

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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #86
92. Kerry's Hand-Wringing
For all his claims about valuing "strength" - Kerry showed no personal strength himself when he voted in favor of the war. He wrung his hands and endorsed Bush's hugely violent and immoral invasion of Iraq.

We're going to need a real Democrat in the White House, not a weakling like John Kerry. At a time when we looked to him for leadership, he completely failed us. He should not be president.

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #92
93. Karl Rove cant attack Kerry in this manner- but you can!
More surface attacks on DEMS...remember HE cant attack Kerry on defense, but YOU can!!!!

Good luck to you- I hope you strategy involves defeating Bush

ta ta
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uptohere Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
46. given the public's feelings on that subject
it would make more sense for Kucinich and Graham to drop on that issue.

I realize many around this site feel strongly against it but its not even close to being a campaign issue for most of America.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
49. earlier post
there was a post a few weeks ago predicting kerry would drop out. and now one asking him to drop out. as if the group of people who are supporting him is not important.
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #49
67. Important Supporters
The people supporting Kerry are important; they're just overly optimistic about his chances. Kerry's vote for the war wasn't just a single vote, as some in this thread have argued. The war itself, and Kerry's vote favoring it, were deeply offensive to the core values of our party. It's important to replace Bush with a true Democrat, not Bush Lite.

Kerry really has no chance. If he drops out sooner rather than later, we'll hail him as a party unifier and a great statesman. But if he's too egotistical to see his already-dismal chances fading still further, he'll make it unpleasant for everyone. He has little to gain by a foolish persistence in a lost cause.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #67
103. to the core values of our party....HUH????
man...what disease is spreading here that effects people's memories.

OUR PARTY was more than 2/3rds in favor of bush's invasion. i realize this has always been a bitter pill to swallow here at DU but it's true none the less.

the idea that Kerry will suffer as a result of casting a vote that represented the wishes of 2/3rds of dems is ridiculous. take the 70% of dems that supported the war, add that to the fall away repubs and you have some pretty broad support in the general election for Kerry.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
50. You have got to be kidding me
Kerry who is by far the most electable candidate has the best position on the war there is at the moment, most people just don't see it. The war is opposed at the moment because Bush fucked up our diplomacy and ignored the UN. The resolution before congress said that he would not do that. You know the outcome of that... Kerry supported a once popular war that would still be popular had Bush gotten UN approval and not fucked up our diplomacy. Again my scope of beliefs are that people looked to Bush for somebody to be strong against terrorism. His stupidity totally screwed that up and now people want somebody who will truly be strong on terrorism and not screw them over like Bush.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
53. That way Chicken Dean doesn't have to debate Kerry.
What's wrong with hearing them detail their positions and question one another one-on-one? Obviously, lots of people would discover that John Kerry is the candidate most qualified to serve as President of the United States.
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #53
60. Why can't people discover that without the one-on-one?
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 10:12 PM by deutsey
If it's so self-evident that he's most qualified, people should be flocking around him already.

Which isn't to say they won't be eventually flocking around him (personally, I don't support Kerry but I also don't have any axes to grind against him either)...it's just kind of lame to imply that Mean Ol' Dr. Dean refusing to debate him one-on-one is the keeping lots of people from discovering Kerry's apparent qualifications.
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jcgadfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #53
109. Can we wait for it to get to one-on-first?
Dean/Kerry this early makes them look like heirs presumptive.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
55. Oh give it a fucking rest!
We KNOW you don't like Kerry already! :eyes:

"It would be statesmanlike for Kerry to announce his withdrawal from the race because of his vote supporting the war. He could say, "America needs a president who isn't so easily caught up in the moment." He would be universally applauded, an outcome preferable to the one awaiting him now."


It would also be sportsmanlike for you to announce your withdrawal from this self-imposed anti-Kerry flame baiting obsession. You could say DU needs a point of presented by someone who isnt so easily caught up in the candidate bashing. He would be applauded throughout this community, an outcome preferable to the one he has currently visited upon himself.

I'm not holding my breath for either outcome.
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #55
69. Unsportsmanlike Conduct
Kerry's going to spend lots of money to pretend his dismal chances of being elected president are better than they are. His vote to allow Bush to invade Iraq shows that he is as much a man of violence as anybody in the current administration. We have a lot of work to do after we win back the White House, and we need a true Democrat to do it.

With Kerry, we won't know what we're going to get until he has announced it after the fact. He won't even come clean about the war vote! His statements are so subtle and nuanced that if you didn't know his voting record, you'd think he voted against the war.

We can do better. In fact, we'll have to do better.

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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. I have not chosen a candidate
but I think I like his credentials and particularly his judgment better than yours.

Thanks anyway.
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #71
79. That War Vote
I like his credentials and particularly his judgment ...

His judgement in voting for Bush's war in Iraq might have impressed you, but it didn't impress me, that's for sure! We need a real Democrat in the White House, not John Kerry.

If he drops out now, he'll be a hero. If he waits until the voters show even less interest than they do now, he'll end up being seen as some egotist with lots of money, like Steve Forbes and Ross Perot.

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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. YOUR opinion impresses you
it doesn't impress me
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #81
85. Message Not Messenger
You should re-acquaint yourself with the rules of Democratic Underground and limit it your responses to the text of the thread. You should not offer opinions as to whether or not persons who post here are, in your words, "impressive".

DU's rules are simple and reasonable. If you put some small effort into being cooperative, it works out best for everyone, as I'm sure you'll agree.

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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #85
94. I think you should read the rest of the rules yourself
Here let me help you:

3. The attack is directed at a person, rather than at an idea. If an attack is against an idea, then it will be allowed to stay. For example, it is permissible to say that an idea is "stupid" but it is not permissible to say that an individual member of this message board is "stupid".

5. The attack is directed at a person, rather than at an idea. For example, if someone says "that is a stupid idea," that is not considered to be a personal attack. Often, in cases like this, people will infer that the speaker is calling the other person "stupid" even though the comment is narrowly targeted to the idea. We will not consider such inferred attacks to be attacks.

I have stated your opinion does not impress me, as it does appear to impress you. If you consider that a personal attack please feel free to alert.

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #79
83. Steve Forbes & Ross Perot never held office...
Edited on Mon Sep-15-03 01:29 AM by Dr Fate
...and they were Conservatives and Republicans-I believe Forbes was evn a Chickenhawk...

You are going out on a limb to trash a good Democrat...Republicans could probably do a better job of trashing DEMS than you are- but I'm sure they appreciate your help/enthusiasm in that endeavor!

If Kerry is a terrible as you say, the voters will pick a comparable or better man- which is no problem-since we have such a grea field of strong DEM candidates...
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
56. Many average voters can actually identify with his dillema...
...after all, most Americans believed at least some of what Bush was saying-most Americans thought Saddam had "somthing."

Many average voters, including military types believed Bush at the time, but are skeptical now...

I'm not for bashing any DEM candidates-its a terrible strategy when the goal is to defeat Bush.

I still think most of our candidates are still quite strong and many of them are going to be looking better than Bush to a lot of voters...
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #56
70. Twenty-Three Senators
Twenty-three Senators managed to get the Iraq Resolution vote right; John Kerry was not one of them. It wasn't a difficult vote, a soul-searching dilemma that you say it was. Kerry knew he'd have to piss somebody off, and he chose to piss off his fellow Democrats. Now he's looking for our vote in the primary. Well, nuts to that!

The war was as unnecessary as it was ghastly. Where was Kerry's humanity when he voted for it? What a betrayal of Democratic values! If he drops out sooner rather than later, the better his chances of being forgiven for a calculated misjudgement.

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #70
72. Drop out? Why not just let the voters decide...
..who knows, some of his ideas and approaches may represent certain voters-or not...I doubt most voters will blame Bush's failure in the war on terror on Kerry- but we shall see..
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #72
75. There's No Interest
Kerry has nothing going for him. He's wrongly positioned on the issues, he has neither looks nor personality, and he can't really explain why he's running. He's way back in a 10-person race that he shouldn't have entered.

If he drops out now, he'll be a hero. If he persists in believing he has a chance of being elected, he runs the risk of being seen as a wealthy eccentric like Ross Perot.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #75
80. Drop out=hero?
That's a new way of looking at it!

Its still to early to determine interest among your average, non hard-core DEM types- I mean, Lieberman and Gephart are doing well in some polls- but does anyone actually believe they will get it?

I guess Edwards is "good looking" - but I like Kerry better than him as a candidate, and he's not ugly anyway- but remember when the GOP/media made fun of his hair? I guess non republicans can use that too!

I like Kerry, Dean and Clark- I predict that it is between those 3- but we will see...

We will see if your prediction about kerry looking eccentric plays out- I have my doubts...
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #80
89. Eccentric John Kerry
Yes, it's true that Kerry has gotten away with things that other politicians have not gotten away with. But this is a bigger stage now. I'm sure you've noticed that Kerry hasn't lit any fires with anyone. It's my opinion that he's not going to light any fires with Democratic voters.

I don't think Kerry has the vision to see his chances as they actually are. Unfortunately, we'll probably have another six months of him. More's the pity ...
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #89
91. Hey- you may be right...perhaps voters will not identify with him...
...I still say its between Kerry, Dean and Clark...


If the GOP wanted to characterize him as eccentric, in what ways would they do it? Could they accuse him of "getting away with things" (what ever that means???)without opening criticism to themselves- oh never mind, you can just do it for them! Karl Rove says thanks.
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
57. This is idiocy
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 09:52 PM by Neo Progressive
What you're doing strikes me as lame and divisive. Kerry can run circles around everyone else in a debate setting, he's got enough respect in the international community to be a brilliant statesman, but QUALIFICATIONS RELEVANT TO THE POSITION aren't as important as how he voted to give Bush the power to go to war as long as he appeared to use diplomacy first. I support Kerry, but will vote for any democrat nominated, even that crazy little weirdo Kucinich. I would assume anyone who seriously calls themselves a liberal/leftist would too.
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Woodstock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
58. We don't know any such thing - Kerry might be the one
That's what a race is for.

We need to find the one who resonates with the most people. Me, I prefer Dean. But it's not about me. It's about getting enough people to be interested enough to get Bush out of office. Kerry is well-respected, and might be the one. Although I don't like his vote on the war one bit, it was, as Graham said, a blank check and a HUGE mistake.
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
59. I don't support Kerry
But I don't think withdrawing makes any sense.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
62. Notice OrdinaryTa ditched this flamebait after posting it
:eyes:
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #62
73. Message Not Messenger
You might want to re-acquaint yourself with the rules of Democratic Underground, especially the ones that relate to ad hominem remarks like your post. This thread is about the 2004 presidential election; you ought to limit your response to the text of the post rather than the person posting it.

The rules are simple and reasonable. If you make a small effort you should have no difficultry complying with them. You'd be surprised at what a positive difference your cooperation will make!

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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #73
95. I think you should read the rest of the rules yourself
Here let me help you:

3. The attack is directed at a person, rather than at an idea. If an attack is against an idea, then it will be allowed to stay. For example, it is permissible to say that an idea is "stupid" but it is not permissible to say that an individual member of this message board is "stupid".

5. The attack is directed at a person, rather than at an idea. For example, if someone says "that is a stupid idea," that is not considered to be a personal attack. Often, in cases like this, people will infer that the speaker is calling the other person "stupid" even though the comment is narrowly targeted to the idea. We will not consider such inferred attacks to be attacks.


I think your suggestion that Kerry drop out of the race is stupid. And I think your repeated Kerry bashing over several threads is flame bait. That is my opinion.

If that bothers or offends you in any way, or if you consider that a personal attack, you certainly have the option to alert on me. Please feel free to do so.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
74. Ta
The crusade seems honorable, but a bit over-the-top.

I think it's time you accept that Kerry will probably be the party nominee, and deal with that on its own level.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #74
76. Or people can vote against him...
...theres no fix- either the voters like this guy, or they like another. Its too early to tell- I say we let them take it to the primaries democratic style!
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #76
88. ok
:shrug:

just a prediction
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #74
77. A Modest Fantasy
I think it's time you accept that Kerry will probably be the party nominee

Why stop at such a modest fantasy? Why not go the rest of the way and have him the President by acclamation! Elections can be so divisive.

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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #77
87. You know I don't like him
but I like Kucinich, and I do have realistic assessments of his chances

There's nothing unreasonable to say that I expect Kerry will be the nominee. The money hasn't even kicked in yet, and that will end up being the decisive factor.

I have low expectations for the outcomes of the next year. If you're looking for someone against the war, the Democratic party may not be the place to be.
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Zolok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
98. No Dean should drop out...
or switch to the GOP cause' he's a gun nut in extremis.
:)
Sorry I just had to do that.
***
If Kerry's vote to authorize is grounds for his withdrawl then so should Howard Dean as the good doctor was fine with sending troops to Iraq back in the Spring.
And anyway, George McGovern voted for the Tonkin Gulf Resolution in 1964 nobody called for his withdrawl in 1972.

:)
www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com
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GoldenOldie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
99. Demo Candidates Stay the Course
My personal opinion: I have not seen such a fantastic group of Democrat candidates since I first voted in the 50's (with the exception of Lieberman).

I have not yet selected my candidate but I am heartened by their ability to voice all of our views with the problems of this present administration. If nothing else they have drawn the sane part of our country together in a common goal of getting rid of this moron and his entire corrupt administration.

I say none should drop out until the Denocrat Convention declares the winner. It is driving the Neo-Cons crazy that they are unable to go on the personal attack to any one candidate yet. It is hilarious when the ranting heads such as O'Reilly, Limpbaugh, Tucker, Scarborough, Russert, attempt to define and tell us which of the 9-10 candidates would be better for the Democratic Party. The candidates as a group are finally getting the back bone to call corruption - corruption, and realizing that they have the support of the voter's.

I say the more candidates the better - but when the final selection is made, we should all come together to support our candidate.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
101. All Democrats should drop out...
Edited on Mon Sep-15-03 09:55 AM by onehandle
Surely none of them can win.

Ha ha...

Newsflash. It's about the economy and jobs.

Kerry isn't the only one who voted that way. What about the other Dems? And I believe some Republicans voted that way as well. Remember them?
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #101
105. pleease don't say that....
we can't rely on the ecomony being our issue. the market is bullish and on a day long visit to my MIL's i passed four freaking help wanted signs in the period of 20 mins. we need to be prepared to fight a good ecomomy too.
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Garage Queen Donating Member (640 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
106. Funny, I was going to say the same thing about *Bush
:evilgrin:
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
107. Dean should drop out for the good of the party.
If he gets the nod it will take a damn miracle for the Dems to win in 2004. Considering what Bush is doing to this country I'd like better odds than that.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
108. That would happen in the same universe
as the one where Kucinich wins the election.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
110. Well if anyone should recognize "lame and divisive" it should be you
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