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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:20 AM
Original message
Are you a 'progressive' or a 'liberal'?

- What are the differences between the two? Are progressives just too afraid to call themselves liberals for fear of scorn from the 'liberal media'?

- The DLCers call themselves 'progressive'...but they're right wing Democrats so I don't understand how this applies. Are progressives really centrists and moderates?
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roughsatori Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. There was a long thread in response to this almost exact question
last week. Maybe someone has it bookmarked and can post the link for you. It answered the question the best of the 4 times that question has been recently asked in a post.
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pansypoo53219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
2. i am
a fire-breathing Democrat. i AM socialistic. cal;l me a liberal, call me a progressive. all i want is this country to be better. and i will works towards those ends. period.
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StClone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Amen
Truth, science, education, diversity and shared wealth and responsibility.
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SuffragetteSal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. I agree with StClone
truth, science, education, diversity and shared wealth and responsibility.

Thanks buddy!

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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
4. A liberal progressive in the Wellstone sense
Progressive is a kind of meaningless term that has been co-opted by all sides. Who can be against progress?

But I personally favor the category of liberal progressive populists of people like Wellstone, Kucinich, Bernie Sanders, Al Sharpton, Tom Harkin, Pete DeFazio, Marcy Kaptur, Jan Schiakowski, etc.

They are the ones talking about the roots of our problems in a clear, direct and honest way, and offering answers that are not couched in language designed to placate corporate America. They are for the people.

And even though they are often branded as "too far left," they really just represent the traditional liberal spirit that the corporate centrists have smothered over the last 20 years.

I am convinced that if people were allowed to hear their message, and it was backed by a unified Democratic Party, a majority would respond and kick Bush back to Texas and consign the GOP back into well-deserved minority status.

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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. "The DLCers call themselves 'progressive'"
Yes, and the Nazis called themselves 'socialist' and the Commies 'democratic'. It only goes to show the need for a truth-in-political-labelling law.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
6. LIBERAL! And proud of it, too. If that makes me a progressive, too,
well, more's the better.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
7. A PROUD LIBERAL ANDA PROUD PROGRESSIVE
AND A PROUD TEN PERCENTER

AND A PROUD SHIT STIRRER
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Kamika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
9. liberal is a prerequisite for progressive
In order to be progressive you have to be liberal you cant be conservative.
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George_Bonanza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Canada has the Progressive Conservative party
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
10. I'm both.
I'm a liberal in every sense of the word. However, I also believe in practical approaches and representation of all citizens. Rich/poor/corporations etc...

NPR just did a show and spoke about the right of corporations to have a voice in our democracy. I'd never thought of it that way.

Paul Wellstone spoke out for 'the little guy' as he said the rich and corporations 'aready had a voice.' But, I feel Paul Wellstone believed in the right of corporations to participate in our democracy. Make sense?

BTW, Al Franken considers himself a DLC democrat...

I'm not a fan of the DLC as of late personally. I think they ought to dissapear after the slamming of some of our candidates.

Sorry for the ramble :P
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Corporations have no place in a civilized society
All they care about is their wealth and power. This is contradictary to the Constitution, which proclaims "Of, by, and for the People".

And as the Corporations currently control it all, we know firsthand they have no place whatsoever. They are fascists. PERIOD!

Much like the DOMA, Wellstone was wrong in believing corporations have a valid say in matters. The corporations have spoken since 1980 and look where it's got everybody in 2003. I shudder to think how orporations will screw things over in the next few years to come; tbeir fascism will continue unchecked. I'm not going to mention examples, there are too many - especially in matters of technology...
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. I think u misunderstood my post...or I wasn't clear.
Edited on Mon Sep-15-03 11:57 AM by gully
Paul Wellstone (in his book-the conscience of a liberal) said a government of by and for the people is what we should achieve. He went on to say we've become a goverment of by and for the corporations. This not right, and it's not what our fore fathers had in mind. Paul Wellstone spoke against the over influence of corporations in our democracy.

However, I dont think he wanted to eliminate the corporate voice completely? Though, I can't speak for PW...

Footnote: corporations didn't exist when the constitution was written. I am not a corporate apologist by any means, but I question the thought that they have no right to a voice in our society?

Peace
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Ani Yun Wiya Donating Member (639 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
37. Not entirely true.
"Footnote: corporations didn't exist when the constitution was written."

New York City, Massachusettes, Rhode Island WERE Corporations at that time.
I am not sure about the rest of the thirteen original states, but they may have been.
Corporations are not something that are new in any sense of the word.
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xJlM Donating Member (955 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
11. I consider myself liberal
I'm pretty open to the rights of every person to live in whatever way makes them happy, so long as they're not hurting others. One big problem with this, however, is that I own several guns and lots of ammo. Historically, liberals have been in favor of gun control. I just can't agree with the notion of not defending my civil rights by whatever means available. Maybe I'm a libertarian? But I don't think a libertarian would support Dennis Kucinich...
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Cloud Donating Member (380 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. I am a Liberal too
You can be liberal and be pro-gun. Look at Howard Dean.
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xJlM Donating Member (955 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Howard Dean is not what I would call a liberal
And I'm not trying to incite anything here. He doesn't call himself a liberal. Now the major news media may call him that, but they're a bunch of lying assholes anyway...
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Northwind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
12. Liberal vs. Progressive
I was thinking of starting a thread along these lines today....weird

I am a liberal. Damn proud to be so. However, unless you want a fight on your hands, do not call me a "Progressive".

Progressives are, by and large, people who are afraid to call themselves liberal because of the right-wing attempts to turn "liberal" into an epithet. This is a Good Thing, by the way, because the people who refer to themselves as Progressives are by no stretch of the imagination liberal, and I do not want to share my label with them. They are ideologues. They are intolerant. They are close-minded. Progressives do not want facts to interfere with their beliefs. When I read a thread on this board posted by a self-described Progressive, the tone, and often-times the arguments used, are indistinguishable from threads on Free Republic. Only the names are different.

"Progressive" has become just another ideological group, demanding that its members march in lockstep, no dissent or free thought is tolerated.

Liberal all the way, baby.
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
32. that's not at all true
People who call themselves "progressive" are not at all afraid of the "liberal" label - it's just that many people who call themselves "liberal" aren't all that liberal. Cf. "Love me, I'm a liberal" by Phil Ochs.

http://www.ocap.ca/songs/lovemeim.html

"Progressives" aren't really afraid of labels, since they get called crazy radicals and communists, sixties throwbacks, etc. ALL THE TIME.

Even on DU, the progressives often get called "far left" or "too radical" for the party.
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neebob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
13. More and more
I just think of myself as a sane person, or maybe just a person with a functioning brain.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
15. "liberals" is a swear word created by the pukes
I am a progressive because my beliefs, if enacted, will progress America beyond its current pathetic, "me me me" state. The pukes are hreatened by my beliefs because they would mean the quality of life of ALL Americans would improve, even the rich - because without the rest of us they wouldn't be. I hope they remember that before our economy collapses...

The DLCers... I won't say what I think of them at this time, but they sure as hell aren't progressive.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
19. "Progressive."
In much of the world "liberal" means free markets and Chicago School-economics. "Scoop" Jackson was a liberal.
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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
20. A bonafide tree-hugging, granola munching, liberal
and very proud to be so.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
22. I'm a progressive -- because liberalism is a failed ideology
I'm certain I'm going to get massively flamed for this, so I'll put on my flame-retardant boxers right now! :evilgrin:

Actually, I'm working up a long piece for this right now based on some evolving observations and thoughts, which I'll post in the very near future. It will go a long way toward explaining the subject heading of my post, much moreso than I can type right now.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Stan Goff said something like that recently.
I forget exactly what he said but basically it was "I'm not a Liberal" then said something along the lines of "Because a Liberal is just a guilty Conservative".

Something like that...
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. That's EXACTLY the thrust of my argument, JanMichael
Edited on Mon Sep-15-03 12:38 PM by IrateCitizen
I'm just about done reading a book by Rabbi Michael Lerner (founder of Tikkun) titled The Politics of Meaning. It is perhaps the biggest contributor in helping me to understand a lot of things that have been bouncing around in my head over the past two years or so.

Basically, he talks about liberalism as a failed ideology because it is a system based on entitlements which does nothing to address the real problem, which is the immorality of the system itself. We are told by both liberals and conservatives that there is no alternative to the "free market", and we are encouraged to operate in a spirit of self-interest. This has lead to a spiral of cynicism and isolation for many of us, because by acting consistently in self-interest, we lose our capacity for empathy, cooperation and community. How on earth are we supposed to act in a spirit of caring in our communities and families, when we are encouraged to operate in self-interest in the workplace? It's not a switch you can turn on and off like a light.

Liberalism has failed because it has been about simply helping "disadvantaged" or "oppressed" groups to join this ruthless free market devoid of caring or compassion. How on earth can you expect such a duality of people? The result has been the failure of liberalism in general. While conservatism has not done anything either to solve our problems, they have simply been more effective in tapping into people's craving for meaning and community than the liberals have through false rhetoric.

I seek to change the paradigms under which we live, to challenge the notion that the fiscal bottom line should be our utmost concern. I see such an endeavor as progressive, and not liberal, because it goes against so much of what liberalism really is, and recognizes it for the ultimate failure that it has become.

ON EDIT: I absolutely love the stuff that Stan Goff is putting out there. I try to check out his "Military Matters" column every time he publishes a new one.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I figured as much.
By challenging the very foundation of our economic/societal organization the term Liberal, which enabled the status quo to continue, does seem to lose it's glimmer.

Same with the term "Charity", what does that really imply?
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
23. I guess it goes without saying...
...that I'm an 'old school' liberal. I believe the government has a function...to serve the people by regulating corporations and the use of the 'environment'...which supposedly belongs to all.

- It seems that 'progressive' means nothing at all...just a word used by 'centrists' not willing to take a stand in the name of the people.
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. quite the opposite
"Progressive" politics have a long history, which is all about "taking a stand in the name of the people." It's not a term adopted in the last ten or twenty years. Progressives took on the corrupt machine politicians and their collusion with big business.

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1061.html

Nowadays, "progressive" has a "grass roots" connotation.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
24. not so long ago they were synonymous
:shrug:
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. time out to edit...i am an UNABASHED LIBERAL!
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Oracle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
25. Are you a mod or a rocker...
"I'm a mocker!"

from - A Hard Days Night
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boilertommy Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Liberal
I'm a 2-fisted fighting Liberal of the New Deal school, an Economic Liberal. I want the money. I'm not much interested in Social Liberalism, I think most social problems should be solved with higher wages and better jobs, not with government programs. And it's the Social Liberals who've made Liberalism in general appear weak and gutless.

I'm against abortion and gun control but will ally myselves with people who think otherwise as a practical matter to gain power as I think abortion and gun control are only diversions, side issues not nearly as important as who gets the money is.

And by the way, I know lots of Liberals who are gun owners, lots of them. And this gun control thing is costing the Democrats many votes with people whose financial interests should make them vote Democratic. This is a problem.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. I'm a progriberal
:-)
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
30. These Terms Have Been Ripped From Their Historical Moorings
Edited on Mon Sep-15-03 01:44 PM by DemocratSinceBirth
and have lost all meaning...

I am a traditional liberal or welfare state liberal....

As a welfare state liberal I support our system of private enterprise as long as it's buttressed by a strong safety net...

On social issues, I want the governemnt out of my life.... I have a mommy... I don't need another one....

I am for free trade as long as it's fair...

On defense and foreign policy I support working through multilateral institutions but reserve the right for our nation to act unilaterally*

I am for the maximum amount of freedom consistent with order...

I hope these views are consistent with my Democratic heroes, Harry Truman, John Kennedy, and Robert Kennedy

on edit-

*the right to act unilaterally should not be some "elastic clause" used to justify any American intervention.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. You're right.
Am I for market liberalization? No, I do not support neo-liberal/conservative economic policy.

Do I support liberalized immigration? Not really, but I really don't care. IMHO, liberalized immigration is like free trade only you bring the folks who will work for very little here.

I am thinking that maybe the word liberal isn't the best definition. "Progressive" is actually more accurate.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
35. I'm a Liberal Conservative

I want to conserve liberty. On the other hand, I do stray.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
38. liberal
Edited on Mon Sep-15-03 03:17 PM by Cheswick
progressive was a fine term 100 years ago, but it has come to symbolize for me, the kind of people who think Naders abandonment of womens and gay rights was anything more than mean spirited appeal to the disaffected righties.
I have read right her at DU that we should be able to forget about inconvient meaningless issues like womens right and gay rights, civil rights. These are the kind of people who call themselves "progressive". That makes me a Liberal.
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. actually....
Progressives are feminists who support same sex marriage. Many "liberals" use the word "choice" instead of "abortion rights" and think that same sex marriage is going too far. Liberals say, "I'm personally opposed to abortion, but..." "Liberals" of today think social liberation is all well and good as long as you don't act too "extreme" and embarrass your friends, family and neighbors.

Ralph Nader is an economic progressive who isn't well-versed in the social aspects of progressivism. That doesn't mean that people in the Green Party or people who voted for him are NOT.

The liberal mantra of today seems to be "what about the children?" Shame, because that has nothing to do with traditional liberalism.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
40. There are two kinds of people in this world ...
... those who divide the world into two kinds of people and those who don't.

I don't wear labels or logos ... particularly those whose (re)definition is not under my control. :shrug:
When I was less mature, I felt otherwise. YMMV and obviously does. :silly:
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