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Dean looked so incredibly good on "This Week" The camera doesn't lie.

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lindashaw Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:01 AM
Original message
Dean looked so incredibly good on "This Week" The camera doesn't lie.
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tsipple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. And No Makeup
Yup, agreed. I also like it when he digs into reporters a little bit.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
86. you know what i learned today?
that there is something called 'the attack fund' and it seems some of Dean's supporters have pledged to contribute whenever he is attacked.

could that be the reason for his outrage with step? was he trying to portray that interview as an attack in order to vamp up the contributions?
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mandyky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. It's called the troll fund
which started on the blog, whenever trolls post, bloggers donate. When Russert sandbagged Dean contributions went up, and yes, I am sure they are up due to George S.'s performance. But did Dean orchestrate that to raise funds ..... Give me a break!
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pruner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #91
103. here's the link to the troll fund
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NWHarkness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
2. He slapped down the turncoat
I was glad to see him call weaselboy George on the prejudicial way he frames his questions.
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homelandpunk Donating Member (787 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
101. yeah, Pigfucker McTurncoat is really
a pathetic disgrace. He would NEVER talk to Bush or Cheney that way. He would be oh so deferential to them, and solemn, and never pipe us with a "but..." to any of their replies. I just find his lack of any maturity about human nature to be so fucking Republican. He was soooo let down because Bill got a blowjob that he decides to become a whore?? Kee-riced, grow up. Bill got a blowjob, George...his penis went into Monica's mouth...SO THE FUCK WHAT, YOU FUCKING PUSSY??
What? this means you have to join the Pharisees and pick up the stone to throw. Why don't you grow up, you worm.
You are so happy Bush doesn't get blowjobs!! Oh goody. Just like Dennis Miller. You pussies with your delicate sensibilities make me puke. A dick went into a mouth. SO!!!! WHAT!!!!!!! ...god!
And then he has to ask Dean about religion...aww for fuck's sake. And then presses him on his number of minutes spent praying per day...
jesus!!
George is just another Republican blowjob-loathing religous Fudamentalist. I hate the little puke.
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John_Shadows_1 Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
3. You've got to be kidding me...
... Stephanopolous nailed him on double-talk on NAFTA, that he wants to cut Social Security, and Medicare. Dean is the worst thing that could have happened to the party at this time - he's just a player, a Clintonian pragmatist. And his position on the war will kill him in a confrontation with Bush. After this segment, I'm completely Anti-Dean.
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. the war is a disaster......
Bush will lose based on that fact alone.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. does that mean Kucinich has a chance
:shrug:
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. yes,but I think that Kucinich has to find a way to make himself heard
...and I think that it has to be by hitting a money goal. The only reason that Dean became top tier is that he won the money game last quarter. If Kucinich could come in second next quarter, the media would take notice.

Considering how many people voted for Nader in 2000, Kucinich should be in a position to generate that burst of money.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. yeah I guess
I am just so sick of the media ignoring him drives me insane. Stupid bastards. Sorry if I seem mad, but you know, hes been speaking out and thats what its all about.
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. unfortunately politics is a game of power and not ideas....
...if we had a general population that was really aware of their surroundings, it might help.

I know a number of fairly liberal people who are not particularly disturbed about the state of this country....Even now!

When total disaster strikes......then they wake up.
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pansypoo53219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. when has the media
EVER given a true progressive a chance? When Teddy Roosevelt A FORMER PRES. became a damned socialist he was derided. Did we get a president Harkin? Babbit? nay.
IT WILL NEVER BE SO. I am sorry to say. and i grew up YEARS AGO TO THAT FACT.
and please, all those Nadar voters? why yes he maybe got 10% of what PEROT GOT. there is not a groundswell out there.
dream all you want, but on the bright side. get Kucinich into the Senate where he can pick up Wellstone's mantle.
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
104. What is a "true progressive"
C'mon! A little honesty about DK's policies. The word is being misused in politics these days.
From The American Heritage Dictionary we find:

1. Movement, as toward a goal; advance.
2. Development or growth: students who show progress.
3. Steady improvement, as of a society or civilization: a believer in human progress. See synonyms at development.
4. A ceremonial journey made by a sovereign through his or her realm.

This is not a word that truly represents what DK offers in his platform. He wants immediate radical change not development towards the desired change. The senate very well might be a good place for him to work with some people to tweak his ideas into something that the public would be comfortable with. They aren't taking him seriously because they know the general public isn't ready. It doesn't seem fair, but I think they are showing him respect in a sense. I think that a lot of media attention might not ultimately turn out to be pleasant for supporters. The press can be pretty obnoxious.
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fabius Donating Member (759 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
108. Babbitt? Hey, Babbitt could be a clone of Dean almost
He was (is) a moderate, pragmatic, policy wonkish, DLC-type mixed with progressive populism. But not TOO populist.

Mo Udall would have been the real thing, as a progressive.

Babbitt was the best Sec of Interior since Stewart Udall in the '60's.

I'm a former AZ political hack.
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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. From a Dean supporter...
I must say that I greatly respect and honor what Rep. Kucinich stands for. He is a great Democrat in the tradition of FDR, JFK and RFK. I have defended him to others, even though I support Dean! I have been saying for months what Clinton said at the stake fry on Saturday...I feel that we have an excellent field of candidates...they are all articulate, passionate, caring individuals who have spent their lives working for the people who matter in this country!

We should all be proud of the Dem debates....the fact that Fox viewers got to see how articulate and informed the dems were should scare the hell out of them...in fact, i'll go even further to suggest that Fox shot themselves in the foot and probably helped lower Bush's poll numbers by exposing their sheep to some god's honest truth...and that ray of light peirced their light deprived eyes and they began to wake up...

If Rep. Kucinich wins the nomination, i'll be out in the streets canvassing, registering voters, sending cash, all for Dennis....
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. thakns
Its just the media makes me so mad, it makes me one aggrevated nutty sob heh but yeah. I just cant believe the media turns a blind eye on to him, its so typical I guess. I just wish people would give him a chance, no chance etc, that drives me nuts, thank you though, I just wish more people would realize that this man is a fighter and fights for we the people every day at his job.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
36. I'm not sure that the media ignoring Kucinich is a bad thing.

I know I do not want Kucinich being put out there as an icon for the left.

DK is way left on a lot of issue, far to the left of me, and he's far enough out there on some issues that I'm not comfortable with him.

Aside from him fliping on abortion and flag burning, I'm not sure I'd want him in the White House. And if the guy is too far left for a lot of the left, what chance does he have with the moderates and centrists in the general?
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. he didnt flip on flag burning
on abortion so he changed. Dean changed on issues and I cut him slack. I think he could appeal to moderates, I think midwestern farmers would like him for standing up to farmers. Well who do you want the left's icon to be? Just because you dont like him doesnt mean he doesnt deserve press, ok this guy did what he could against the war in congress. He didnt flip flop on abortion either, the change was gradual it didnt happen in a day. Of course its a bad thing, you think its ok for Dean to be portrayed as the lone ranger on some issues like the war. Seriously I know you disagree with him on some but he has every right to press as your guy does.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #39
55. He doesn't have a right to the press...


Let DK build a massive grass roots network and raise more money than any other candidate and he too will get press.

The reason the press is not focused on Kucinich is that he is a fringe candidate only slightly more viable than al sharpton.

DK is a fringe candidate within our own party... he won't even be a blip on the radar in the general.

"you think its ok for Dean to be portrayed as the lone ranger on some issues like the war"

Half the people running are against the war... CMB, sharpton, DK, and Dean. So saying i do not want DK as an icon for the left is not saying I want Dean to be the lone ranger on being anti-war. It mean I do not want DK being spun as the typical democrat, because he's not.


As for flag burning, did he not vote to support the flag burning amendment?

As for abortion, his switch came mighty close to the time he decided to run for president and he has a history of anti-choice votes before that.

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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. he doesnt have a right?
who are you to say that? On the flag burning you called him a flip flopper and that isnt true yeah he voted for it that doesnt make him a flip floper and in fact I disagreed with it. Look at his choice record, its not perfect but its not as bad as you claim. What do you define as a regular democrat? Who are you to make standards? You may not agree with him on some things but hes as much as a democrat as you and I. Listen he came out against the war early on very early on, and that merits mention. So its ok for you to read an article on the patriot act and its fine for your guy to be mentioned but not mine despite the fact he voted against it, and wants to repeal it. I dont get it. He has a right to press, he has earned it by speaking out against the war and the same wrongs your candiate has.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. No he does not have some ordained right to press coverage.

Nor does anybody else. You get press coverage by working for it and frankly, Kucinich has done a lousy job. Dean gets press because he worked his ass off to build this huge grass roots network and has gotten more support from the people than Kucinich.

I see DK supporters all upset that the press is not activly pushing him along to make up for his shitty campaigning. That's not the press' job. That's DK's job and he sucks at it.



"On the flag burning you called him a flip flopper and that isnt true yeah he voted for it that doesnt make him a flip floper "


Wait are you saying he still supports the flag burning amendment?

"Look at his choice record, its not perfect but its not as bad as you claim. "

So he voted against choice and voted for the flag burning amendment... and you want to know why I do not want this dipwad being held up as the ideal democrat?
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. fine I see your point
but acknowledgement you know damn well I am not asking for magazine covers or articles but acknowledgement. Ok so does Dean priding himself on getting 100's from the NRA make him not an ideal democrat? It doesnt bother me but by your standards it would. I am even asking for him to be actively pushed, I am asking for acknowledgement, I read an article on the patriot act and he wasnt mentioned as being the only one to vote against it and the fact he wants to repeal it. I dont know what his view on the flag burning amendment is right now but look I am not asking for mass coverage but acknowledgement you dont know how many articles Ive read in the papers.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Kucinich hasn't changed on flag burning amendment (he supports)
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 03:05 PM by w4rma
He has changed on abortion choice. (he supports, used to be opposed)
(Note, this is from memory. I haven't double-checked myself on this.)

I still agree with DK on most issues. I still like him. TLM is correct that DK hasn't run a very good campaign. Nonetheless, I still like him and would like to see him or someone with similar views - not the flag burning amendment thing - elected to the presidency in the future.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. I understand that
I really do but I think if I wanted to be a jerk and I wont be out of kindness I would find two issues with Dean I didnt like and say I dont want that in my party like the NRA and past social security view. I dont like that but I am ok with Dean. I know his campaign hasnt been the best but what he has done merits mention, I dont ask for extensive media coverage but acknowledgement. It aint over till its over honest to god.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #64
72. Stuff like the flag burning bugs me... sets a pattern.


i see the flag burning thing, and the desire to ignore congress and use EOs, and the cut %15 from the pentagon statement, and the get rid of NAFTA... all seem to follow a very authoritarian pattern with Kucinich. He comes off like he has no regard for congress and will simply do as he pleases via mandate.

That is a bad thing from the right or the left and I dont like it.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #64
75. You meant to say "Kucinich" instead of "Dean," I believe.

I was startled to see "Dean hasn't changed on flag burning amendment (he supports)" but reading the rest made it clear it was just an error. (We need a better word than "typo" to describe the phenomenon of typing a perfectly correct word in the wrong context like this, as I'm sure we all do it. Brain transposition? Or brain transplant? :7 )

OK, you just corrected it, but I'll post this anyway because I wanted to ask if Dean has ever been asked how he would vote on the flag desecration amendment.

I understand how DK's patriotism plays on this issue and don't see it as a tremendous infringement on free speech to say you can't desecrate our nation's flag. I think those who fly flags on their cars and allow them to become tattered should be prosecuted for desecrating the flag every bit as much as someone who burns it at a protest (actually, prosecuted more strenuously since the flag flyers are showing they don't care about the flag enough to care for it while the flag burners are often making a protest against injustice.) BUT I don't think I would vote for it because I don't like amending the Constitution.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. Stop trying to push the BS repuke myth that all dems are anti-gun
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 03:07 PM by TLM
" Ok so does Dean priding himself on getting 100's from the NRA make him not an ideal democrat? It doesnt bother me but by your standards it would."

You are grasping at straws here. Dems are not anti-gun.

"I read an article on the patriot act and he wasnt mentioned as being the only one to vote against it and the fact he wants to repeal it. "

And whose fault is that? ucinich has to get out there and make himself known, he can not sit on his ass and wait for the media to carry him along.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. I am not
pushing that one bit, I am saying that would be the same. You act as if I am asking for articles, I am not asking for that, mention. They should acknowledge that fact. I am not saying dems are anti gun one bit but if you are gonna use that on Kucinich, I used it as an example on your guy and you know I didnt mean it as a bad thing just a example. Of course getting 100's from the NRA doesnt make him a bad democrat, in fact I to a certain extent like his attiude on that.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #73
95. Expect a "clarification of postition" on Gun Control from Dean soon
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 07:09 PM by Tinoire
We already saw the one, Pelosi/Lieberman fireworks included, to placate the Pro-Palestinian crowd and get them to just shut up. Expect the Gun flip flop soon because it's already becoming a thorn in his campaign. Many Liberals/Progressives are beginning to realize how the Centrists are once again taking them for a ride and they're not liking it.

So far: Retirement age, Cuba, Israel-Palestine...
Coming soon: Guns, Medical Marijuana

-----------------------
AUGUST 22, 2003

<snip>

The pro-Palestinian crowd is not alone in wanting to stick it to Dean. Gun control advocates are looking to shoot down his candidacy.

One of the nation's most prominent gun control campaigns is urging its members and the public to reject Dean for his position that gun control should be mostly a state matter. "Dean says he's from the 'Democrat wing of the Democratic party.' As far as gun safety advocates are concerned, give us a Democrat from some other wing of the Democratic Party, please," wrote the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence/Million Mom March in a press release.

"Some of our members, including suburban women who are going to be important to any presidential campaign have said they were initially attracted to Dean, but his views on gun control have given them second thoughts," said Tony Orza, director of government relations for the Brady Campaign.

<snip>

http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.08.22/news3a.html
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. And again
It is NOT "pro-Palestinian"-- it is pro-justice, human rights and honest efforts at resolving the conflict--principles supposedly espoused by the Left. Anytime your candidate choses to speak up and throw in his two cents on this issue he is bound to get media coverage.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #97
110. You'll have to address your comments to the author of that article...
I would tend to prefer your definition but since I was quoting...

But have no fears, my candidate has been speaking loudly on this issue for years and is getting plenty of press among the Leftist media and the Jewish/Israeli peace groups. Kucinich is the only one being supported by Tikkun and Jewish Voice for Peace and to be endorsed by major peace groups. I would venture to say that this, Kucinich's consistent "justice, human rights and honest efforts at resolving the conflict"-stance is one of the reasons Kucinich will continue to be marginalized by the media- that and a stance that is definitely anti-corporate excess/pro-worker.

I have no fears for Kucinich and am not too worried about him not getting that kind of media coverage because his is truly a grass-roots movement and the people will carry this day.

What I do mind is the incredibly rude tone of certain previous posts to one of my favorite posters and especially the one about "pushing a myth".

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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #73
106. Press releases?
One thing Dean is doing is putting out a lot of press releases. Is DK doing the same? That is something that would definitely help. If he isn't, it would be a good suggestion you could send to the campaign.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #60
94. After your brilliant analysis re the "dipwad" I trust you'll understand
why many of us do not want your candidate "held up as the ideal Democrat". I'll leave pathetic language like "dipwad" to Centrists like you.

And since you freely admit that you are a moderate who can't fathom Liberal "dipwads", I'll do a favor to liberal lurkers and explain to them exactly what Centrists love about Dean who is as one author sums it up not a liberal. He's a pro-business, Rockefeller Republican.

Bad move, very bad move to be so rude to John Kleeb who's never said an unkind word against any candidate or to any poster. People like you make me see red

Who's the Real Howard Dean?

<snip>

Conservative Vermont business leaders praise Dean's record and his unceasing efforts to balance the budget, even though Vermont is the only state where a balanced budget is not constitutionally required. Moreover, they argue that the two most liberal policies adopted during Dean's tenure -- the "civil unions" law and a radical revamping of public school financing -- were instigated by Vermont's ultraliberal Supreme Court rather than Dean. "He was not a left-wing wacko," says Bill Stenger, a Republican and president of Jay Peak Resort, who says he supported Dean because of his "fiscally responsible, socially conscious policies." Business leaders were especially impressed with the way Dean went to bat for them if they got snarled in the state's stringent environmental regulations. When Canada's Husky Injection Molding Systems Ltd. wanted to build a new manufacturing plant on 700 acres of Vermont farmland in the mid-'90s, for instance, Dean greased the wheels. Husky obtained the necessary permits in near-record time. "He was very hands-on," says an appreciative Dirk Schlimm, the Husky executive in charge of the project.

And when environmentalists tried to limit expansion of snowmaking at ski resorts, "Dean had to show his true colors, and he did -- by insisting on a solution that allowed expanding snowmaking," says Stenger. IBM (IBM ) by far the state's largest private employer, says it got kid-gloves treatment. "We would meet privately with him three to four times a year to discuss our issues," says John O'Kane, manager for government relations at IBM's Essex Junction plant, "and his secretary of commerce would call me once a week just to see how things were going."

<snip>
The most controversial change under Dean's watch was the overhaul of Vermont's traditional system of paying for public schools with local property taxes. The new system shifted funds from rich towns to poor towns through a "sharing pool" and raised the burden on Vermonters earning more than $75,000 a year. It sparked an explosion in education spending, "which is up 40% since 1997 even as the number of students are down 6%," says Douglas -- and a firestorm of protest in wealthy towns such as Stowe. After Douglas took office, the sharing pool was eliminated, property taxes for homeowners were reduced, and the sales tax was boosted to make up for lost revenue, making the Dean education plan less controversial.

<snip>
Still, Dean had a knack for positioning himself and never lost an election. Those who know him best believe Dean is moving to the left to boost his chances of winning the nomination. "But if he gets the nomination, he'll run back to the center and be more mainstream," predicts Stenger. Says Garrison Nelson, a political science professor at the University of Vermont: "Howard is not a liberal. He's a pro-business, Rockefeller Republican."

http://yahoo.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_32/b3...

For the lurkers out there...
Dean is not antiwar. Dean was totally behind the war against Afghanistan and has made some very disconserting statements about Iran and Syria (the next 2 countries on Bush's list). Re Iraq, Dean simply wanted the war to be delayed 60 days but was all for going in, with or without UN support.

Afghanistan:
I supported the invasion of Afghanistan and the elimination of the Taliban. I thought that group was a clear and present danger to the United States, and I supported what the President did.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/052203A.shtml

the United States must reduce its dependence on Middle Eastern oil and we must have a President who is willing to confront the Iranians, the Syrians, the Saudis, and others who send money to Hamas, and finance a worldwide network of fundamentalist schools which teach small children to hate Americans, Christians, and Jews. ((AIPAC talking points if I ever saw any!))

From Dean's speech to the Council on Foreign Relations - June 25, 2003
Restoring American Leadership: A New Direction for American Foreign Policy
http://www.cfr.org/publication.php?id=6072#

While we focused on Iraq, we neglected the very real nuclear threats emerging in North Korea and Iran. For months we refused to see North Korea's nuclear challenge as a crisis-and now it is a declared nuclear power.

http://www.cfr.org/publication.php?id=6072#

In Iran, we again must use the full range of economic and diplomatic tools at our disposal. We must work with the Europeans and the Russians to stop Iranian development of nuclear weapons and their support of terror.
http://www.cfr.org/publication.php?id=6072#

---
From March 2003

Deans Rhetorical Twister

Dean has been on the campaign trail for a while, and his opponents have noticed earlier contradictions as well.

On January 31, Dean told Ron Brownstein of the Los Angeles Times that "if Bush presents what he considered to be persuasive evidence that Iraq still had weapons of mass destruction, he would support military action, even without U.N. authorization." ((So in other words, had the manufactured evidence been less clumsy, Dean was all for it- you call that being anti-war??))

And then on Feb. 20, Dean told Salon.com that "if the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice."

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-geraghty0...
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #55
69. Wait a minute
What do you mean by "he doesn't have a right to press" until he raises more money? I thought elections were all about issues and that the progressive community wanted to fix elections so that money was not the only way to be heard or seen.

I have not spent too much time looking at the flag burning issue but the abortion issue is close to my heart and I think he spent a great deal of time dealing with this issue himself. As far as I am concerned, he has been an honest broker with us and I would rather have a nominee who will say that he has changed his mind before an election than after. Also, Bush* makes us all furious because he sees things his way and does what he thinks regardless of what the country or international community thinks. I thought we wanted someone who would listen and consider the best for our country, not what is best for him.

As for him being fringe left. As far as this country has been pulled to the right I think it is an absolute neccessity that was have candidates that are left of the majority. Honestly, he does not advocate anything that most of us don't feel are important values. They just all seem very wacky in the political climate we are in. Just my two cents. We are lucky to have all the candidates we have. They all have strong points and need to be heard.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. WHat I mean is that he doesn't simply get press coverage

because he wants it... he has to do something worth covering.

In Dean's case he raised a ton of money, built a huge grass roots support base and draws massive crowds... so he gets more press coverage.

"As for him being fringe left. As far as this country has been pulled to the right I think it is an absolute neccessity that was have candidates that are left of the majority."

Not if we want them to win. Doesn;t matter how left he is on issues, if he can't get elected because he only apeals to a small segment of the far left.

Honestly is running Kucinich worth four more years of Bush to you?
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. I think anyone running for national office
should have press coverage simply because they are running for national office. I respect Dean and all he has done. I remain commited to DK because I believe in him and his issues. I do not think honesty, peacefulness and love of fellow man as too far left. This is just the primary for gods sake. I will continue to support him but whoever gets the nod, yes, even Leiberman, will get my vote. If DK is too far left then it will all get sorted out. Until then he needs to be heard, they all do. When hearing about our candidates you never even hear his name mentioned, nor CMB or AS. Money should not be the issue and is a good part of the problem in this country.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #39
90. You're right... He's always been against flag burning


As a 20 year vet, frankly I could care less if people use the flag as toilet paper and don't get riled up about the issue one way or another because to me it's just a ridiculous, manipulative piece of cloth that both the anti and pro FBA people are making too much of an issue over.

That said. It is still the flag of this country. A flag that was supposed to stand for good and decency. A flag for which many, whether right or wrong, went and shed their blood when asked. It used to be a flag that was respected and admired by down-trodden people all over the world who believed the words "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. ... "

Kucinich is the son of a poor family that spent many lights sleeping in their car and he loves his country and its people. He also loves the flag and all it was supposed to stand for. What he wants to do is restore the honor and dignity of that flag.

The second time I saw Kucinich was in a room full of REAL patriots- it was at the Veterans for Peace Conference in San Francisco Friday & Saturday.

The room was packed with men like S Brian Wilson, a Vietnam veteran who in 1987 had his legs cut off at Concord, California, when he lay down in front of a train to protest a Naval train carrying weapons headed for Central America.

Kate Berrigan, the daughter of Father Berrigan

Rachel Corrie's parents Craig and Cindy Corrie

Representatives from Military Families Speak out

and hundreds of vets, disabled vets who lost a limb or part of their life for that flag.

And they, they too, would like to see that flag honored.

In that light is how you look at Kucinichs vote of the FBA.

Blind rage is not an answer. The blind rage to destroy out of anger and pain are not the answer. The answer is to fix the problem and on that I agree with him 100%. And once Kucinich is in office and that problem is getting fixed, we can all once again start feeling joy when we see that flag waiving in the wind.

I would love to bold for once feel proud to be an American in a world where the image of Americans went down long before Bush ever stepped into office. Bush simply gave that image its coup de grace but from Vietnam to Gulf I to Yugoslavia to Afghanistan to Gulf II, people of the world sat back appalled and Americans like me, were ashamed of what was done by imperialist scoundrels holding that flag. Put that flag in good hands- and let me be proud of it again. No need to burn the damned thing- just get it out of the gutter, clean it up and fly it again.


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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #36
65. Why not give Kucinich a chance to talk to moderates and see if

they think he's too far left?

I'm surprised that anyone who considers themselves a progressive, which you seem to say you do, would think Kucinich is too far left. From what I've read, real far leftists see him as too moderate.

I consider myself progressive but am more conservative on some issues than most of DU, and more conservative on some issues than Kucinich. But I support him wholeheartedly because I agree with him on the more important issues dealing with peace, civil rights, and the economy. I agree with his fiscal progressivism most of all. We'll never have equality without progressive fiscal policies.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #65
77. What do you call the deabtes?


The deabtes are what did it for me... Kucinich is too far left and too short on plans.

He has some great ideas, but no plans.


He wants to do too much via executive orders, and has too many shoot first ask questions later style answers to problems like NAFTA and defense spending.

I like Dean because he agrees on a lot of the same issues, but has a far more reasoned and moderate approach... like reforming NAFTA and evaluating defense spending before cutting.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #77
83. Again, why do you assume that your job will be safe if Dean

reforms NAFTA?
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #77
85. The debates are okay but not enough -- the media has been

selling Dean, paying little attention to Kerry, Graham, Edwards, Gephardt, Lieberman, and ignoring Kucinich, Braun and Sharpton. Thus, moderates and others who don't follow politics like we do, have already had a lot of exposure to Dean before they ever see the debates. Also, the moderators at the debates structure them a lot, helping some candidates, hurting others.

But my point was actually just to say that nobody should presume to speak for the moderates -- not you, not me.

Couple of questions about these paragraphs from your post:

"He wants to do too much via executive orders, and has too many shoot first ask questions later style answers to problems like NAFTA and defense spending.

I like Dean because he agrees on a lot of the same issues, but has a far more reasoned and moderate approach... like reforming NAFTA and evaluating defense spending before cutting."


What makes you think Dean could get anything done without using executive orders (assuming a GOP-controlled Congress)?

Why do you think Kucinich wants to cut defense spending? He's already evaluated it! Why hasn't Dean already evaluated it? Candidates who talk about "needing to evaluate" things (Dean's position on medical marijuana as well) make me nervous because it's often a delaying tactic that they continue to use once in office.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #36
89. Of course you don't- You're not a Leftist
but we Leftists have decided that we do want him out there as our icon ;)

Kucinuch has the same chance with moderates and centrists as Dean has with progressives and liberals, Greens and extreme whacko leftists like me :) He's gonna be the icon we put out for the Left (since we're Leftists).

I have a feeling that as a Centrist you can not support, or appreciate, our unyielding determination to not waste this, the best, opportunity we have for finally putting a progressive into office.

I'm really not sure what you mean by "too far left for a lot on the Left". From whence this sweeping pronouncement? Surely as a Centrist, you do not pretend to speak for the Left? Bear in mind that there are so many of us... so far to the left... So many Leftists Democracrats, Greens, Progressive Independents, etc pounding the streets for our candidate into neighbourhoods where internet yuppies fear to thread. If there's one thing Kucinich isn't, it's out of touch with the needs of Middle and Lower class America. For every job like yours that depends on NAFTA, there must be at least 5 unemployed people whose jobs depended on not having something as disastrous to the American worker as NAFTA. And do you know what each and every last one of those people is? Someone who loves the American flag because he/she comes from the same class Kucinich does, the real beer drinking working class that's pretty attached to the flag and doesn't buy all the intellectual arguments about the prss of flag-burning.

They're going for him big-time, just like in Ohio, which is why Republicans and Centrist Democrats controlling the machinery are doing what they can to marginalize and discredit Kucinich.

----------------------------
If any Democrat has a history of attracting swing voters and "Reagan Democrats" in winning elections against better-funded Republican opponents, it is Dennis Kucinich. He has repeatedly defeated entrenched incumbents. He beat a Republican incumbent for mayor in 1977, for state senator in 1994 (overcoming the national right-wing tide) and for Congress in 1996.

His Congressional district includes the suburb of Parma, Ohio, described as "one of the original homes of the Reagan Democrats." An Ohio daily calls it a "conservative Democratic district," which he carried by 74% in 2002. Being a success there may be a better predictor of national success than holding statewide office in a liberal stronghold like Vermont or Massachusetts.

Kucinich is a winner because he builds Wellstone-like grassroots campaigns against bigger-spending opponents. He is a winner because of his blue collar roots and populism, reflected in his battles for heartland voters against unfair, corporate-friendly trade deals.

http://kucinich.us/electable.htm
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #89
109. Um, ACLU leftists aren't impressed
these women's groups who are going for him are originally Nader supporters who didn't exist as feminist organizations until he started running. They are trying to have a presense to pull in pro-choicers. Women who are active with choice groups know better than to support someone who has ever entertained the notion that a fertilized egg is more valuable than the research potential it may have to save existing people's lives.
Everyon's job doesn't depend on NAFTA. I live in THE bellweather state- Missouri. We have picked the winner since Truman. Here, the rightwing Democrats are going for DK over NAFTA, and Greens are going for Dean. I pointed out the odd dynamics of my congressional district before.
"If any Democrat has a history of attracting swing voters and "Reagan Democrats" in winning elections against better-funded Republican opponents, it is Dennis Kucinich."
Is this a current widespread phenomenon? Something happening in a single district always has potential to be simply opposition to the other candidate. Until something like that happens nationwide, his potential to attract these voters cannot be regarded as anything but limited to his own district.
We've had quite a few Libertarian leaning Republicans at our Dean meetups. Not sure if KC and St. Louis are experiencing the same.

On guns--
There's a Democrat I know who doesn't really like them, but felt obligated to vote with the NRA because 73% of her district voted in favor of the right to carry on a ballot issue. That's a democrat if ever there was one!! That's why I like Dean's position on it.
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. get over it
the media is not now and never will be in your corner. Money and media means nothing compared to votes. Kucinich can and will get those votes, but if you let the media influence you in any way shape or form, you will be in a poorer position to judge the situation and make decisions. Dont let them frame your position or agenda. Its staggering to see how many democrats round here hang on every word pouring from their TV set, populated by right wing assets. Extremely unintelligent. Just to turn the damn thing on is to invite lies. So many seem to miss that simple fact.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
40. youre right its just aggreavting tinat
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einsteins stein Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
34. This is such a weird statement!
The only reason that Dean became top tier is that he won the money game last quarter.

Why did he win the "moneygame"?

What about Dean's rise in the polls - is that because he won the "moneygame"?

Where does all that money come from in this game?

Come on folks - Dean is top tier because he has more popular support. The same reason that he is winning this "money game." Why is he popular?

Well, perhaps it's because he looks so good on TV, or because he does not need to wear makeup, or because of his quirky smile?

Maybe its because he's not afraid to take the fight to the neocons, and kick a little Bush ass.

Works for me :-)
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
92. That's a little naive, don't you think?
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 05:15 PM by gottaB
Dean has a lot of small contributers now (opensecrets), but how much of that was prompted by people jumping on the Hollywood celebrity bandwagon? In February, AP was reporting "Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, among the least known and worst funded in the field of Democratic White House hopefuls, found a big bucks Hollywood backer on Thursday in liberal activist Rob Reiner." Newsweek had another story about Dean raising money from the entertainment industry at a crucial time in his campaign--before the second quarter numbers were due. You *know* he got serious beaucoup press because of that fundraising.

Can you seriously not question the degree to which Dean's celebrity is a concoction? It seems pretty obvious to me that having showbiz celebrities hyping Dean on talk shows and in print media did a lot to propel Dean's campaign out of obscurity. (Yes, the blogosphere is a den of obscurity when you're talking populism at a national level.)

Don't get me wrong. Dean's run a smart campaign and a earned a lot of popular support. However, the truth is that election gatekeepers in our corporate media elevated Dean into the "top tier" on the basis of fundraising and celebrity buzz--before he was polling very well; the surge of small donations and popular support solidified his standing.

Popular support has never been a necessary condition for securing serious attention from the media. It's always been fundraising that grabs their attention. For example, one of the most consistent reasons given for discounting Moseley Braun (she gets the least press coverage of all of the contenders) is her fundraising. Occaisionally she is dismissed for polling poorly, but when she polls well, the fallback excuse is always fundraising. On several occasisions, Deanies have been known to dismiss Gallup polls because, they say, they can't believe Braun pulls 5% of Democratic voters. That seems like a serious disconnect to me.

Kucinich is likewise dismissed and ridiculed (he gets the least press of all the White candidates), and one reason that is often given is fundraising. It doesn't matter that Graham also polls poorly. It doesn't matter that other candidates don't shine in debates (and that's pretty subjective, isn't it?). The most significant factor determining who the press regards as serious and worthy of attention is fundraising.

Again, Dean has run a great campaign, and he now has a lot of popular support. I'm just saying it's unwise to gloss over the influence of money in electoral politics.
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pruner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #92
105. you think people are supporting Dean cause Rob Reiner does?
talk about being (more than) a little naive.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #105
112. Your reading comprehension skills are admirable,
but when it comes to writing, you could use a little practice on establishing tone.

Yes, you understood exactly the point I was making, which was also made and further substantiated in the Newsweek article I cited. Reiner endorsed Dean in an attempt to influence others. Reiner hosted a fundraiser in an attempt to influence others, who also wanted to influence others. They openly endorsed Dean and had fundraisers....and so on.

That's called like the money primary, and Dean ended up winning in no small part because early on he won the support of a very influential political activist within the entertainment industry who goes by the name of Rob Reiner.

Now, when it comes to people explicitly giving reasons for doing something, such as casting a vote or contributing to a political campaign, very rarely does one hear "I am doing so because I have been influenced by behind-the-scenes fundraisers and media image-making." Regardless, the influences of celebrity endorsements and the money primary certainly rates as a cause--not a final cause, in an Aristotlean sense, but certainly an efficient cause, and arguably a formal cause. (The latter would depend on agreeing upon some sociological definitions well beyond the scope of what's required to answer your incredulity.)

I have little doubt that Dean's supporters, whether they are wealthy celebrities or ordinary joes and janes, tend to share some sense of ultimate purpose beyond the attempt to influence others to do the same. However, if you throw your support behind a candidate or contribute money to a campaign and fail to realize that you're wielding influence, you're being stupid. If you think Reiner does the same without realizing that he's wielding influence, you're being naive.



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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
88. The media is not covering Kucinich, Sharpton, Mosley-Braun
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 04:46 PM by IndianaGreen
In case you haven't noticed, the media is also not covering Arianna, Camejo, or John Christopher Burton in the California recall.

And on what is the media focusing on? Other than their obsession about Arnold, and their mention of McClintock, the only thing the media talks about is the "feud" between Bustamante and Davis.

No once have I heard the media discuss how the GOP has used the recall provision in the California Constitution as a tool to undo an election. The media is also not mentioning how the GOP is trying to recall other Democratic officeholders in other states.
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John_Shadows_1 Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. I hope so...
.. But Dennis needs to get his head out of the clouds, and stay on message. He's definitely the best candidate, policy-wise, though outright cancelling of NAFTA will never sell - he should have modulated that, some.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. yeah I do too
Well his message is pretty consistent. I see what he means by NAFTA, I think he plans to withdraw not cancel it, same thing :shrug:
I just dont understand why the media doesnt mention him, I was reading an article on the patriot act in August, and you may or may not know that the Congressman wants to repeal that thing and hes the only one who voted against it.
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ablbodyed Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Facts don't matter
The militias are coming
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
87. yes, yes...we know
the subject now is which candidate will be the one to beat him. please don't try and change the subject.
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. I hope you're wrong, John, but in any case welcome.
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. Clintonian
No... really...Yur saying he might have some Clinton in him... No... Oh my god.... really?

Well then he's my guy...
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StClone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. Thanks
Yu are correct. He is nothing more than a Clinton Pragmatist (WETFTI) and nothing but a politician sheep in wolf's clothing.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
23. Oh, I rather think
you were completely anti-Dean before you saw it.

Just a wild-assed guess.

Eloriel
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John_Shadows_1 Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Actually, no...
... I just want the right candidate to emerge, with the right set of ideas. This campaign should be an evolutionary process, producing the candidate with the best plan, and surviving trial-by-fire. I was attracted to Dean early because of his vigorous anti-Bush posture. Then when I looked under the hood, I didn't like what I saw.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. Expect more posts like this....


Lots of "I liked Dean, but..." posts to start showing up from folks with 25 posts. The basers are getting desperate as Dean continues to jump in the polls and raise more money.

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John_Shadows_1 Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #37
47.  I don't know what a 'baser' is ...
... but I know what a progressive is - he stands for empowering labor and universal health care. Dean's been doing some double-talk on real progressive issues - and saying that he would cut Social Security (before raising rich people's taxes, if that's what he's implying) payments or medicare ain't helping his case with me. As for being desperate, I'm desperate to see a real democrat win the nomination, and neither of your posts have addressed the points brought up - that Dean is a simple pragmatist, without the big vision and attention to worker concerns that we need.

Remember - George W. Bush was sparing on the details when it came to giving tax cuts to the rich and still keeping the budget balanced. And look how that worked out. Today, Stephanopolous showed Deans specifice statements he had made about NAFTA and cutting Medicare, and Dean tried to dance his way out of it without addressing the issues.

Popular and good are two different things.
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mandyky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #47
59. The issues that worry you all come from Dean's OLD
statements. His comments on Social Security were made in 1995, the Medicare about the same time. The support for NAFTA was before it became a problem.

The thing I like about Dean, is that he looks at all the solutions and is not afraid to change his mind as circumstances change.

And what the heck is wrong with being a pragmatist?
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. Exactly, and he's right....


NAFTA is a good thing... but it does have problems that need to be addressed, which Dean has been clear about addressing.

But these bashers take soem line Dean said 10 years ago and act like he said it yesterday, so they can claim he's double talking, and that's crap.

Dean says he is for cutting medicare costs, and suddenly there is some idiot saying Dean wants to cut medicare. Then you look at teh quote and see Dean is talking about going after drug companies that drive up cost of medications, and that's what he wants to do to cut costs, not cut benefits.

Each time these bashers show up... simply ask them for full exact quotes and citations.

That usualy is enough to send them off to make a new account to start their crap up all over again.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #47
63. Yeah... bashers are getting desperate... same old crap over and over.


"but I know what a progressive is - he stands for empowering labor and universal health care. Dean's been doing some double-talk on real progressive issues - and saying that he would cut Social Security"

Cite that quote. Where as Dean EVER said he'd cut social security.


"(before raising rich people's taxes, if that's what he's implying) payments or medicare ain't helping his case with me."

Dean has repeatedly said he'd raise or remove that tax cap on SS payments before he'd cut any benefits.


"As for being desperate, I'm desperate to see a real democrat win the nomination, and neither of your posts have addressed the points brought up - that Dean is a simple pragmatist, without the big vision and attention to worker concerns that we need. "

That a total fiction... Dean's positions on labor are outstanding and that's why he won the wellstone award.

You're points are BS, you're making crap up out of whole cloth.


"Today, Stephanopolous showed Deans specifice statements he had made about NAFTA and cutting Medicare, and Dean tried to dance his way out of it without addressing the issues. "

No he did not, Dean directly addressed why both those statements are not what Stephie was trying to spin them as.


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MODemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:50 AM
Original message
Yes, Eloriel, you're probably right about that
I've noticed that people find one thing to badger a candidate about, and they just harrangue it to hell and back. Dean is not perfect, nor are any of the rest of the candidates. He speaks for me, and apparently, for a large number of us.

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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
76. I like that..."harrangue it to hell and back."
That is so visually Descriptive!
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
26. Dean was not "nailed"
In 1995 he heard another respond on what was needed for SS - and the fellow indicated that our pay as you go SS funding would need - if funding remained the current wage capped payroll tax - a change in the "normal retirement age" - perhaps to age 70, certainly to 68 from the Reagan set age of 67 (folks have forgotten how Reagan raised the retirement age - and it will be good politics to remind them). Dean sain he agreed. He has since gone to changing the funding method - by removing the wage cap on payroll taxes. The folks in the AARP understand this - I do not see how he is hurt - except in "media versus Gore" way - meaning that the media will try to screw him on this - but they are RW and and would have done so anyway.

On Medicare, he endorse the GOP goal in 95 of reducing the growth medicare medical costs from a 10% growth each year to 7% growth (Gingrich claimed a $270 B "savings" would result, There were no details as I recall, so it was motherhood - and indeed as a Clintonian pragmatist, why not be in favor of the obvious?

As to Nafta, Nafta sucked except that it saved a world wide economic crisis that would have occurred if Mexico was allowed to go under - yet after its sucess in daving Mexico, NAFTA is now screwing Mexico as our Farm welfare payment to the major Farm corporations (and God bless that a little of the money does get down to family farms - but that is not the reason the GOP passed it) are destroying farming in Mexico. Indeed that is the reason for the Cancun 26 demanding the US/EU/ and Japan end export prices that are little more than real cost less tax subsidy (I believe beef in the EU prices out at "cost less $2 per day per cow before slaugter" - a great way to teach small countries how we believe in the market pricing model).

I agree Dean - and all the others - need to fine tune their message, but I do not see how Dean has fallen over some "Clintonian pragmatist" edge.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
98. Good post. But let me ask you a couple of questions.
Before I do, I'm pretty sure the Mexican loan was entirely separate from NAFTA.

I'm trying to understand how US farm subsidies--that have been around for three-quarters of a century--are lumped into NAFTA.

Second, I don't understand what Euro subsidies--notoriously predatory--almost as bad as our sugar protectionism--have to do with NAFTA.

Incidentally, I'm waiting for Dean to tell reporters who keep harping on "haven't you changed your position, yadayada...": Yes I have. That's what intelligent people do when they get new information. Get over it!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sham Donating Member (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
31. Did you even watch the interview?
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 12:12 PM by sham
Those comments made by Dean about SS and Medicare were 8-10 years ago. He explained that we were in a budget crisis then, and that he had supported cutting the GROWTH of the programs.

He then said that the current situation is different. That we are indeed in another budget crisis, but the way out is by repealing tax cuts, NOT by cutting SS and Medicare.

In other words, this is a different situation, a decade later, and he would take a different approach than he would have 10 years ago. Sounds reasonable to me.

:shrug:
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John_Shadows_1 Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #31
51. Actually , he said...
.... that the next president was going to have to make "hard choices" about Social Security and Medicare, and he would look at any options on these, which is unacceptable. Medicare and Medicaid should be expanded into universal health care, to bring us up to speed with the rest of the civilized world, and we should raise taxes on the wealthy to get the money to pay for it.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. We do not need to raise taxes to do that...


we just need to repeal the tax cuts that went to the richest 1% under Bush.

"Medicare and Medicaid should be expanded into universal health care, "

Umm have you even read Dean's healthcare plan?
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
35. LOL! Bashers are getting desperate....


"double-talk on NAFTA, that he wants to cut Social Security, and Medicare"

Your language gives you away...


"And his position on the war will kill him in a confrontation with Bush."

On what planet? Even die hard repukes are pissed at Bush over the war.

"After this segment, I'm completely Anti-Dean."

As if you were anything other than anti-dean prior to this piece?
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John_Shadows_1 Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #35
50. Apparently, you didn't see the interview...
... Dean sent a letter to Clinton in '93 supporting NAFTA. Today, when Stephanopolous called him a "strong supporter of NAFTA," Dean tried to tell him that he was not a "strong supporter" just because he sent a letter. He was just a "supporter". this sounds remarkably like "that depends on what you mean by 'is'.

"And his position on the war will kill him in a confrontation with Bush."
On what planet? Even die hard repukes are pissed at Bush over the war.

Apparently, you haven't seen the numbers. 70% of the (yes, I know, possibly stupid) American public accepts Bush's explanation that removing Saddam was good enough reason for war. And the resistance over there is fading away fast - we're not going to be seeing the number of American deaths a year from now that we are now. It's a loser issue, politically - whether it's a form of mass complicity or not.

"After this segment, I'm completely Anti-Dean."

As if you were anything other than anti-dean prior to this piece?

I wasn't anti-Dean before, as I said. If he was a true progressive, instead of some guy who can talk clever smack about George W. Bush, he'd be an attractive candidate. But he looks like a simple pragmatist to me, especially in light of the (I repeat, and I saw it) double-talk about ISSUES today. The fact is, we need to raise taxes on the wealthy and institute Universal, Single-payer health care, and we need someone who is going to tip the balance back towards workers in economic issues. Or don't you read the papers?
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #50
81. See more of the same BS...


"... Dean sent a letter to Clinton in '93 supporting NAFTA. Today, when Stephanopolous called him a "strong supporter of NAFTA," Dean tried to tell him that he was not a "strong supporter" just because he sent a letter. He was just a "supporter". this sounds remarkably like "that depends on what you mean by 'is'. "

No it doesn't. It sounds like Stephie trying to spin, and having his spin slapped down. Dean makes no secret that he supported NAFTA 10 years ago, and says so almost every time he talk about NAFTA. He also points out that after 10 years of NAFTA we can see some real problems that need to be addressed and Dean has plans for doing just that.


"Apparently, you haven't seen the numbers. 70% of the (yes, I know, possibly stupid) American public accepts Bush's explanation that removing Saddam was good enough reason for war. And the resistance over there is fading away fast - we're not going to be seeing the number of American deaths a year from now that we are now. It's a loser issue, politically - whether it's a form of mass complicity or not. "

This is almost word for f-ing word a repuke talking point. You want to talk numbers look at the less that %50 reelect numbers for W and the numbers for people who feel the country is going in the wrong direction.

As for resistance fading fast, what exactly do you base that on? New reports from the UK are showing major injury numbers are way higher than previously reported


"I wasn't anti-Dean before, as I said."

Bullshit.


" If he was a true progressive, instead of some guy who can talk clever smack about George W. Bush, he'd be an attractive candidate. But he looks like a simple pragmatist to me, especially in light of the (I repeat, and I saw it) double-talk about ISSUES today."


He didn't double talk at all. He was confronted with 10 year old quotes and steph tried to act like he said that stuff yesterday, Dean pointed out why stephie's spin was wrong.


" The fact is, we need to raise taxes on the wealthy and institute Universal, Single-payer health care,"

And how exactly would you propose getting elected on that platform?


"and we need someone who is going to tip the balance back towards workers in economic issues. Or don't you read the papers?"

Have you even looked at Dean's labor record?
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
38. Now don't be shy, tell us what you really think.
n/t
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
52. Dean is pro-fair trade, will keep SS solvent, expand Medicare, Owl on war
NAFTA

HOWARD DEAN: No. What I said-- Well, I'll tell you what I said in a minute. But I'll follow my train of thought here, most briefly. Free trade has benefited Vermont a great deal. Here's the problem with free trade, and here's why I support fair trade, and why I want to change all our trade agreements to include human rights with trade, as Jimmy Carter included human rights with foreign policy. I still think NAFTA was a good thing. I think the president did the right thing. But the problem now is that, 10 years into NAFTA, here's what we've done. We have shipped a lot of our industrial capacity to other countries. And the ownership pattern, and the ratio of reward between capital and labor in those other countries is what it was 100 years ago in this country.

So the reason for NAFTA is not just trade. It's defense and foreign policy. That is, a middle class country where women fully participate in the economic and political decision making of that country is a country that doesn't harbor groups like Al-Qaeda, and it's a country that does not go to war. So that's in our intersect. That's why trade is really in our long term interest. What we've done so far in NAFTA is we've transferred industrial capacity, but we haven't transferred any of the elements that are needed to make a middle class. The truth is, the trade union movement in this country built America, not literally-- Well, they did do it literally with the Brooklyn Bridge and the Empire State Building, and things like that. But they built America because they allowed people who worked in factories and mines to become middle class people. And America was the strongest country on earth, and still is, because we have the largest middle class on earth, with democratic ideals. That is, working people in this country, by and large, feel that this is their country, and they have a piece of the pie, and it matters what they think.

Now, if you want trade to succeed, ultimately, we're going to have to create a climate in other countries that are beneficiaries of NAFTA where they can create a middle class with democratic ideals. That means we should not have any free trade agreements, and we should go back and tell the WTO that you need also to include environmental standards and labor standards. Here's why. Today, if you run a factory in Iowa-- Let's suppose you spend a million dollars a year disposing of all the waste products that come out that are toxic. You can go to another country and dump all that stuff in the river and on the ground. So America, because we have environmental standards, and we're willing to trade, straight out, free trade, with countries that it's cheaper by a million dollars, before you even get to wages, to do business there, I think that's a big problem. We're essentially saying, Our environmental laws are strict. It's cheaper for you to go into business someplace lese. Go ahead. That's the wrong thing to do.

The same with labor standards. I don't know why we should be shipping our jobs offshore when kids can work 12 hours a day, seven days a week, for a small amount of wages. And isn't that what America fought against 100 years go? Wasn't that the victory of the trade union movement? So it seems to me that my position makes sense. We've gone through 10 years of free trade. We've gotten to a position where we now need to change our trade agreements.

HOWARD DEAN: What I would say is, we've gone the first mile. The first decade has worked, for exactly the reasons you say. I don't disagree with the premise of the free traders. I had this discussion with Bob Rubin, and I said, Here's the problem. We need an emerging middle class in these countries, and we're not getting one. So now is the time to have labor and environmental standards attached to trade agreements. He said, You're totally wrong. I can't disagree with you more. I said, How would you address the problem? I haven't heard back. You have to deal with this problem. It's a serious problem.

JOE KLEIN: What if they say no?

HOWARD DEAN: Then I'd say, Fine, that's the end of free trade.

JOE KLEIN: What do you mean, that's the end of free trade? Then we slap tariffs on these countries?

HOWARD DEAN: Yes.

JOE KLEIN: So you'd be in favor of tariffs at that point.

HOWARD DEAN: If necessary. Look, Jimmy Carter did this in foreign policy. If you can't get people to observe human rights, and say that we're going to accept products from countries that have kids working no overtime, no time and a half, no reasonable safety precautions-- I don't think we ought to be buying those kinds of products in this country. We're enabling that to happen. I'm serious.

http://www.jfklibrary.org/forum_dean.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Social Security

The actions of this President and this administration are threatening the soundness of our Social Security system and of our private pension systems as well. By creating the largest deficits in history and adding irresponsibly to the federal debt, he has given Americans worried about their retirement even more cause for concern.

As President, I will be committed to preserving the integrity and long-term stability of the Social Security Trust Fund. I will oppose privatizing the Social Security System. And I will pursue a responsible economic agenda, and under my plan we will never have to consider raising the retirement age.

The long-term future of Social Security and financial security for all of us in our retirement years depends on ensuring a healthy rate of economic growth over the next several decades. Even a modest increase in long-term growth rates will ease the burden on the Social Security Trust Fund. If we do need to bring more money into Social Security, then I'm prepared to look at reasonable options for expanding the ceiling on payroll taxes.

The best guarantee for our Social Security, therefore, is an economic plan with three basic principles:

First, we must create economic growth and jobs new jobs, more jobs, and better jobs for Americans;

Second, we must return to fiscal sanity, for the sake of future generations, yes but also for the sake of our very national security. We cannot be a world-class country if we are the world's largest debtor;

Finally, we must reform our tax system. When I am President, I will work to repeal the top heavy Bush tax cuts, and replace them with a system that is fairer, and simpler, and places less of a burden on working Americans who live off their paychecks.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArtic...

Medicare

For a year now, I have been traveling this country advocating a repeal of Bush's tax cuts so that we can provide universal healthcare and restore fiscal discipline. Many have questioned the political wisdom of challenging the president on politically popular tax cuts.

I believe, however, that given a choice between having health insurance or keeping all of the Bush's tax cuts in place, most Americans will choose health insurance. My plan will cost $88.3 billion -- less than half of the president's tax cut -- with money left over to pay down the deficits run up by this administration.

My plan consists of four major components.

First, and most important, in order to extend health coverage to every uninsured child and young adult up to age 25, we'll redefine and expand two essential federal and state programs -- Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program. Right now, they only offer coverage to children from lower-income families. Under my plan, we cover all kids and young adults up to age 25 -- middle income as well as lower income. This aspect of my plan will give 11.5 million more kids and young adults access to the healthcare they need.

Second, we'll give a leg up to working families struggling to afford health insurance. Adults earning up to 185% of the poverty level -- $16,613 -- will be eligible for coverage through the already existing Children Health Insurance Program. By doing this, an additional 11.8 million people will have access to the care they need.

Many working families have incomes that put them beyond the help offered by government programs. But this doesn't mean they have viable options for healthcare. We'll establish an affordable health insurance plan people can buy into, providing coverage nearly identical to what members of Congress and federal employees receive.

To cushion the costs, we'll also offer a significant tax credit to those with high premium costs. By offering this help, another 5.5 million adults will have access to care.

Third, we need to recognize that one key to a healthy America is making healthcare affordable to small businesses.We shouldn't turn our back on the employer-based system we have now, but neither should we simply throw money at it. We need to modernize the system so employers will have an option beyond passing rising costs on to workers or bailing out of the system entirely. Fortunately, we have a model of efficient, affordable and user-friendly healthcare coverage: the federal employee health system.

With the plan I've put forth to the American people, we'll organize a system nearly identical to the one federal workers and members of Congress enjoy. And we'll enable all employers with less than 50 workers to join it at rates lower than are currently available to these companies -- provided they insure their work force. I'll also offer employers a deal: The federal government will pick up 70% of COBRA premiums for employees transitioning out of their jobs, but we'll expect employers to pay the cost of extending coverage for an additional two months. These two months are often the difference between workers finding the health coverage they need, or joining the ranks of the uninsured.

Finally, to ensure that the maximum number of American men, women and children have access to healthcare, we must address corporate responsibility. There are many corporations that could provide healthcare to their employees but choose not to. The final element of this plan is a clear, strong message to corporate America that providing health coverage is fundamental to being a good corporate citizen. I look at business tax deductions as part of a compact between American taxpayers and corporate America. We give businesses certain benefits, and expect them to live up to certain responsibilities.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=...

The plan will cost an estimated, $88.3 billion. This is paid for from some of the money saved by repealing Bush's tax cuts.

The Dean proposal expands Medicaid and CHIP to ages 25 and under. CHIP is expanded to adults earning up to 185% of the poverty level (currently, $16,613).

For the capitalist half of the Dean plan: Folks with high health premium costs recived a significant tax credit to cushion the costs. The current employer-based system in use now will be modernized by upgrading it to the same healthcare coverage that federal workers and members of Congress have available to them.

Small buisnesses of less than 50 workers get lower rates than their larger competitors. Employers pick up the tab for 2 months in between jobs, but the costs of the COBRA premiums for those 2 months are subsidized, at 70%, by the federal government for employers. Corporations will receive business tax deductions as an incentive for supplying health care to their employees.

War on Iraq

RAY SUAREZ: And I'll begin tonight's questioning with Governor Dean. The United States is now trying to get help from the United Nations in the form of a resolution to internationalize the mission in Iraq. How much decision-making power can the United States share, while at the same time urging other countries to share the cost and share the risk of being there?

HOWARD DEAN: Well, as you know, I believed from the beginning that we should not go into Iraq without the United Nations as our partner. And in this situation, fortunately the president is finally beginning to see the light. We cannot do this by ourselves, we cannot have an American occupation and reconstruction. We have to have a reconstruction of Iraq with the United Nations, with NATO, and preferably with Muslim troops, particularly Arabic-speaking troops from our allies such as Egypt and Morocco.

We cannot have American troops serving under United Nations command. We have never done that before. But we can have American troops serving under American command, and it's very clear to me that in order to get the United Nations and NATO into Iraq, this president is going to have to go back to the very people he humiliated, our allies, on the way into Iraq, and hope that they will now agree with us that we were wrong to go--excuse me--that they will now agree with us that we need their help there. We were wrong to go in without the United Nations, now we need their help, and that's not a surprise.

Governor Dean?
(Speaking in Spanish)
We are spending more than $4 billion a month in Iraq. Do we send more troops?

HOWARD DEAN: Look, I think the most important aspect and the most important quality for any chief executive when they're executing foreign policy is judgment.

I supported the first war in Iraq because one of our allies was invaded, and I thought we had a responsibility to defend them. I supported the war in Afghanistan; 3,000 of our people were murdered. They would have murdered more if they could have. I thought we had a right to defend the United States of America. But in the case of Iraq, the president told us that Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein were about to make a deal or were making a deal. The truth is, there are more likely to be people from Al Qaeda bombing Iraqis and Americans today than there were before Saddam Hussein was kicked out.

Secondly, the president told us that Iraq was buying uranium from Africa. That wasn't true. The vice president told us that the Iraqis were about to get atomic weapons. That turned out not to be true. The secretary of defense told us he knew exactly where the weapons of mass destruction were, right around Tikrit and Baghdad. That turned out to be false as well.

As commander in chief of the United States military, I will never hesitate to send troops anywhere in the world to defend the United States of America. But as commander in chief of the United States military I will never send our sons and daughters and our brothers and sisters to a foreign country in harm's way without telling the truth to the American people about why they're going there. And that judgment needs to be made first, not afterwards.

We need more troops. They're going to be foreign troops, as they should have been in the first place, not American troops. Ours need to come home.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/debate03/part2.html
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Pavlovs DiOgie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
10. Not as cute as Edwards (heck, who is?)...
...but definitely attractive!


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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Ain't he purdy????
;-) OK, so I may be just a teensy bit biased but he is a handsom devil, isn't he? I'm on the West Coast so I still have another hour-and-a-half before "This Week" program is broadcast out here.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. That was a marvelous piece of journalism
I'm on mountain time and enjoyed it very much. You will be very pleasantly surprised, especially at the end!
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #18
28. I just saw it
You are absolutely right. The "politics of the past" phrase is a keeper. Dean's reactions to Gep were ideal. I *really* enjoyed seeing this kind of press for Dean.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #28
44. It had everything...and they could have edited out some parts,
but they chose not to do so. I wish I had taped it. It might well be historic someday.
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Enraged American Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
17. Dean = "moderate" pro-NAFTA. Support Kucinich!
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
41. Dean = "moderate" pro-NAFTA reform.


Sorry, if I support Kucinich, I lose my job. My job depends on NAFTA.


Why does your candidate want me to lose my job? Why should i vote for someone who is so wraped up in his own ideaology that he can not see the damage his cut first, ask questions later policy will cause?

Kucinich is wrong. He is too far left on too many issues to have any hope of winning the nomination, let alone the general.



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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. what about the people who lose their job due to NAFTA
I understand what you are getting at but what about the many who lose their job to NAFTA.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. That's why NAFTA needs to be adjusted or fixed, not simply tossed.
Look at it this way--and I'm sorry to have to make this comparison because I like a lot of Kucinich's principles and ideas.

Simply dumping NAFTA, without fixing it, is a little like Chimpy's dumping the Kyoto treaty. There were things we didn't like about Kyoto, but we shouldn't have just dumped it.

Both the WTO and NAFTA involve our allies, much the way Kyoto did. We cannot just simply dump agreements, treaties, and ways of trade. It's arrogant and makes for terrible diplomacy abroad.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. dont worry about it
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 02:06 PM by JohnKleeb
I understand where you are coming from. I dont know maybe he will try to reform it. I dunno really but if we can keep jobs without it then its ok. Hes also planning to get us involved in new things too, so if people think hes like that on everything they are wrong.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. I know he isn't like that with everything. I agree with a lot of
what he says, believe me.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. I know
Its just some are very judgemental. I understand your concerns. Its all good :).
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #42
58. Dean;s plan will help all of us....
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 02:40 PM by TLM

Because unlike kucinich, Dean wants to reform NAFTA, and put resources into small businesses to create jobs in those markets hurt by NAFTA.

So that way people who have jobs because of NAFTA can keep them, and people who lost job because of problems in NAFTA can also find jobs.

Kucinich's plan is just kill NAFTA blindly and then worry about all the problems that will cause later... that's piss poor leadership.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #41
82. That certainly explains your opposition to Kucinich -- fear of

losing your job if he does away with NAFTA. However, why are you so sure that you won't lose your job because Dean reforms NAFTA? If your job truly is dependent on NAFTA, it would seem any change might endanger it.

I can't believe Kucinich wouldn't find a way to protect jobs like yours. He does plan to initiate bilateral trade agreements to replace U.S. involvement with NAFTA and the WTO.

I will see what I can find out about this tomorrow when I know the Kucinich campaign offices will be open.
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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
22. Is Michelle Martin pregnant?
Just wondered.
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nbsmom Donating Member (419 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
43. I'd say so.
She looks fabulous, doesn't she?

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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #43
93. She looked great
I wondered, though, how she could tolerate that turtleneck and heavy jacket! When I was pregnant I was hot all the time, and I could NEVER have worn anything like that!
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
27. I caught the awkward moment in the car
where he presented Dean with his previous statements on Medicare. Steph was not kind with the editing, nor should he be. Kerry suffered an awkward moment on MTP last week when Russert played a clip of a speech of Kerry sounding a lot like the Bush administration on WMD.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Dean came off as direct, bright and unflinchingly available...
...and admittedly imperfect yet capable of facing and apologizing for mistakes. I think these qualities will appeal to the TV Nation voters who don't get the issues and get their 'info' from TV soundbites. Dean said "I will not be scripted!" Stephanopolous cited a statistic that 50% of voters get their 'info' on candidates from late-night TV talk show hosts. OUCH. Yet we must face this reality. Can you say'Kennedy/Nixon debates?' I knew you could...
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. you thought he looked direct at that moment?
I guess different people can see the same footage and come away with different impressions, but I found it borderline cruel, but ultimately fair, to show Dean struggle on the hook for so long.

Interesting you use the word unflinchingly, because I thought Dean literally flinched at a few of Steph's follow-up questions.
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tsipple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I Get Car Sick Reading Anything
Actually, no, handing a stack of paper to a candidate in a moving car for instant analysis didn't come across well for George Stephanopoulos.

Thank goodness someone in this campaign isn't scripted, though. I'm tired of pablum.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #32
107. True. He did have his defensive posture moments, not 100% perfect.
He rebuffed George S. for 'trying to paint him into a corner that he wasn't in' when asked about his previous support for NAFTA. He would have done better to describe his evolving opinions on the topic. I still contend that he comes across as a straight talker overall and has good potential to win over skeptical know-nothings, that is, most Americans.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
45. I loved watching him rock on that wooden plank while on his cell phone!
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 01:51 PM by VolcanoJen
It just sort of humanized him for me. Standing, looking out over a pond, talking on his cellie, balancing himself on a teetering wooden plank. I loved it.

I know it's banal, but I loved it.

:-) GO DEMS '04!!!
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Pavlovs DiOgie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #45
62. Me too!
What a great way to begin the piece. Really brings it home that he is a real person, not some politician trying to look presidential (whatever that look may be).
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #45
79. That may have been Lake Champlain...I love Vermont and miss it.
I want to go back there soon.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #45
80. It's not "banal" if you "loved it"....And I'll stand by that!
:toast:

If I'da seen it I probably would have love it, too!
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
48. Dean ALWAYS Looks Stiff
Like his top verterbrate are fused... stiff neck syndrome... or he's got a stick up his ass...

that being said... it was great to hear his quick witted comments on last Tuesdays debates...

Larouche in jail & Lott as MLKing.

FUNNY!
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Demobrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #48
67. Bingo on the first one.
That (or something similar) is what kept him out of the Vietnam draft.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #67
84. Yeah I think it was his lower back....


but he does in fact have fused vertebra.
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #48
70. My mother would call him "good husband material"
He doesn't seem stiff to me at all--I see him as handsome, honest, engaging, and very seriously concerned about the future of the country.
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kaitykaity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #48
102. Yah, MLK and Lott was a great line.

Heard that Begala and Carville gave it to HD
when he was filming that new TV show "K Street".

(Just FYI, not making an issue of it or anything.)
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
96. Speaking of which
Have you noticed Chimpy is looking like he's been hitting the sauce heavy. More than ever he looks and acts like a drunk.
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BonjourUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
99. "Camera doesn't lie"...
That's what journalists say. But, if that's true why so many liars are elected ?? :evilgrin:
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
100. The best part
Baklava with maple syrup and greek dancing. ;-)
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Resistance Is Futile Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
111. Camera as witness
Anyone who believes the camera doesn't lie has never used Photoshop...
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