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Disturbing News - - "Dean's Not Sharing"

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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:34 AM
Original message
Disturbing News - - "Dean's Not Sharing"

is the title of this brief article, dated 9/2/03.

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=650

"Those who are pro-Dean, or at least anti-anti-Dean, argue that the cult following he's built will benefit the Democratic Party even if Dean doesn't win the nomination. But Dean himself argues the contrary. Commenting on Wesley Clark's possible candidacy in an interview with L.A. Weekly, Dean explained:

"It's going to be very hard to start late," he says, "and think you're going to do well in Iowa and New Hampshire. It's going to be incredibly hard. I mean, we've already got 39,000 people working for us all around the country ... I really do believe--and I think about this--I want to get this nomination, and if I don't ... these kids are not transferrable. I can't just go out and say, 'Okay, so I didn't win the nomination, so go ahead and vote for the Democrats.' They're not going to suddenly just go away. That's not gonna happen."

This really stunned me. I cannot remember ever hearing a Democratic candidate say that if he lost the nomination he would not urge his supporters to vote for the Party's nominee.

Why does Dean say

" I can't just go out and say, 'Okay, so I didn't win the nomination, so go ahead and vote for the Democrats.' They're not going to suddenly just go away. That's not gonna happen" ?

What would stop him from saying that -- from urging his spporters to vote for the Democratic nominee, if he's not the nominee?

At the Harkin Steak Fry Saturday, Bill Clinton talked about a friend who told him the difference between Democrats and Republicans is that Democrats always want to fall in love with a presidential candidate but Republicans just fall in line. . . Bill went on to say that it was great to fall in love during the primary but after the nomination's decided, Democrats need to fall in line and take back the White House!

Howard Dean was standing right behind the Big Dog. I hope he was paying attention.
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Racenut20 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:37 AM
Response to Original message
1. Are you saying ?????
That the "favored candidate of the DUers" may like a bit of class?
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Did you mean to say

LACK a bit of class?
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. And you suggest Kucinich has class?
.
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. that isnt even necessary
he has such obvious dignity and intelligence, what kind of question is that?
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #12
42. Ahem.
I believe the topic/point of the thread is:

Democrats, including candidates, should support the winning candidate. Stand together. Be united. If a candidate doesn't win the primary, he/she should endorse the person who does as an act of unity for the party.

Did Howard Dean, with that comment, mean that he would not?

I can't tell you what Howard meant; I guess that's a matter of context or interpretation.

I did not see the poster claim that any other candidate has, or does not have, "class." I didn't see another candidate mentioned. I don't think the thread was intended to be about another candidate.

Hijacking the thread in order to attack or fight about other candidates...bad form.

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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. He May Be Your Favorite Candidate
But Not Mine.

Don't Lump All DUers Together!
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E_Zapata Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. I could be wrong, but if Dean said 39,000 people,
then this quote is from quite some time ago (light years in these political times - like a few months).

Dean has well over 100,000 working for him now.

These days, Dean emphatically states that everyone should support the nominee.

I hate defending Dean. I don't like him at all. I will hold my nose to vote for him if he gets the nom. But - I have to say, these ridiculous postings on DU are getting old.

There are so many real issues to criticize him on afterall

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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. I dont see big crowds of Dean supporters round here
Kucinich backers had them all outnumbered at any given event. I dont care what they say, the Newsday poll seems to be showing a much different picture. Reality is going to hit the Dean supporters like a ton of bricks, and Im certain a number of them are going to be too bitter to support the one. And it wont even matter a little bit.
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pruner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #18
70. you're right that Newsday poll is showing a much different picture
cause it's totally unscientific and has no value.

it's about as accurate as the "polls" Wolf Blitzer recently stopped running, and just as vulnerable to freeping (or in this case, Kucinitching*).

*Kucinitching = itching for Kucinich.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. Wonder why no one else's supporters voted in the Newsday poll?

It was public knowledge, posted here at least two or three times.
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pruner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #71
73. oh...then I guess that makes it a scientific poll
and my earlier comments don't apply.

<saracasm off>

idiot.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. I didn't say it did. I merely asked why other people didn't vote in it.

It's an anomaly or an outlier effect.

And please don't call me your family names.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
64. E_Zapata -- Good for you
I share your disdain and disgust for the types of purposeful lies, distortions and mischaracterizations that go on here, no matter who the candidate is being attacked. And when I encounter same re other candidates, I too step in to try to set the record straight.

So, don't think of it so much as "defending Dean," as defending truth and honor.

Eloriel
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Thats fairly difficult
Where Dean is concerned
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. Funny that YOU talk about "defending truth and honor"

since you behave so dishonorably, accusing others of lying and other forms of dishonesty.

It's put up or shut up time.

PROVE that I have posted a lie, distortion, or mischaracterization.

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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:51 AM
Response to Original message
4. Dean: I will not run as independent. I will support the nominee.

KING: New York City, as we go to some calls for Governor Howard Dean, hello.

CALLER: Hi. Governor Dean, I have been so impressed by you ever since I saw you on Meet the Press. And I'm going to my first Dean meeting this week. And my question for you is that many Democrats believe that if not for Ralph Nader staying in the election that we wouldn't have George Bush as a president.

So my question to you is, if you do not get the Democratic nomination, will you still run on the independent ticket?

DEAN: No, I will not.

CALLER: If so, how will that impact the upcoming race?

DEAN: I will not run as independent. I will support the nominee. It is essential that George Bush not be re-elected for the future of this country. It is essential for our economy. It's essential, so we can regain the respect we had around the world. And I will under no circumstances run as a third party and independent. I will back the nominee. I hope I am the nominee because I can bring about half those votes that voted for Ralph Nader back into the party. That's how we are going to win. And I think at this point there is no other evidence that any of the other candidates can do that and I think that's why I'm the most likely to beat George Bush.

http://www.cnn.tv/TRANSCRIPTS/0308/04/lkl.00.html
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. what part of no didn't the caller get?
uh, yeah, the subject
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:52 AM
Response to Original message
5. he's saying even if he tells them to vote for the other guy
it's not going to be that easy to get them to do that.
He didn't say he would NOT throw his support to someone else, he said he can't make his supporters do the same.
Of course Dean will support whoever the nominee is. What is wrong with you people anyway?
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Prodemsouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. Don't you think that is like saying:
My supporters are a bunch of babies, and if they don't get their way well..sniff.. we might just get George Bush again..even though I said he is bad for this country's future..nahhhh.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. You apparently suffer from a comprehension deficit..
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 06:42 AM by liberalnurse
Permit me to assist. Dean supporters are not groopies but adults who have taken time to assess, inspect, discuss and evaluate Howard Dean as a prospective leader. Dean followers have determined he is most capable of effectively defeating *bush.

Dean reinforces our political passion as he speaks for us, one voice. In turn we are involved in the campaign process, a team effort targeting the same goals. That is the diffrence... He includes all of us in the mission. That is why Dean followers won't leave.

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Prodemsouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. Hey is that deprogramming group that was famous in the 70s still around
n/t
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. lol we can only hope
when should we place the call?
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Prodemsouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Now!
That was scary.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Okay Pottymouth.....
you seem to be wanting to flame so go ahead....Look for cheap kicks on an internet board...You prefer to play than to engage in respectable democratic discusssion.

Pitty..... You just can't digest the concept of dedicated team work as Dean has done with his campaign.
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Prodemsouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. "Pottymouth;" where did you see a profane word in my post?
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 07:35 AM by Prodemsouth
Perhaps you need help in reading comprehension. I was only joking with the cult reference. Now, I am beginning to wonder..with your lack of a sense of humor.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. No, I could not detect your humor on this end....
Lets call it an early morning mis-interpretation of concepts. I apologize for the poor spelling of your signature name.
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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #22
61. who exactly needs deprogramming?
Those people who are supporting the front runner?

You wanna know why Dean people get so pissed off...it when people assume that we are all a bunch on drones in the collective....and I know for a fact this is coming from people who havent spent a single amount of time at any Dean meetup!! If you did, you would see that the overwhelming majority of people who are there were smart enough to find their car keys, navigate the road from great distances and work towards getting out the word about their choice of candidate...

Dean supporters get alot of grief about their passion...but I would ask the opposite about those who criticise....what the fuck do you need to happen before you get passionate?!! So we're passionate...were have you been living for the last 2 1/2 years!!!!???

So...keep sitting on your asses and typing away while we canvas neighborhoods, get democrats reguistered to vote, volunteer for other dem candidates, and take back our country...

One last thing, when did we become a party where a candidate believes that they are entitled to the support of the other candidate's supporters? Are we republicans? From the statements I have seen made on DU....it is not the Dean supporters who have been saying that if X gets the nomination i'll stay at home, wont vote, vote green.....
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #15
33. i misread and am self deleting
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 07:34 AM by bearfartinthewoods
sorry
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
67. OMG Great post!
That is exactly why we wont leave!

:yourock:
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. excellent interpretation
if you dont work at the UN now, you might have a future there.
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sfwriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 04:55 AM
Response to Original message
7. That's not how I read it...
I read it as him saying, "I can't just say this...they won't listen to me." He's right about that. Dean's followers are closer to McCain's than anyone I can think of. Gore has those followers as well.

I think any other candidate you acknowledges a Dean "plank" in his agenda will get some converts.

-Sandy


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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #7
72. second that
misinformation going on, not surprising.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:03 AM
Response to Original message
8. Too bad your candidate couldn't stand right behind Dean
when he spoke out on the taboo subject of Israel.

About a month or so ago I saw some Democratic operative who claimed that Dean supporters were more likely to back Kerry as nominee than the reverse and I believe that was indicated on the Move-on primary.
Since that time Kerry has made it increasingly more difficult with his positions- for me anyway who always had a problem backing him, and I think what Dean says is just being honest--there is nothing he could say to change my mind---part of the reason I support his candidacy is a protest against the others.

In any event---what was the point of this thread when you could've the opportunity to post glowing words about your own favorite---you don't think scraping together anything other than another put-down post is going to change anyone's mind? It seems like you are the one who would have the problem lining up brhind Dean should that day come.

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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. It's a damn shame that fellow democrats
speak so offensively about fellow democratic candidates.
This shit is so "Rove." :puke:

It is shameful. I am fed up with the baiting. How can you stand yourself? I question party affiliation by such hate.

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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. LISTEN TO YOU!!!!!!!
What did you just say about Kucinich? Both sides of your mouth getting tired yet?
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. What other response would you have rendered to...
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 06:59 AM by liberalnurse
"Did you mean to say, Lack a bit of class?"

And my mouth is quite midline thank you.
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Theres no two ways to interpret your words
although you want it both ways. Kucinich personifies dignity and honesty. If "class" isnt a byproduct of that, I dont know what is. Im afraid there are many responses possible to that line of inquiry and the one you chose lacks a little something...
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. Let me be the judge of that when I meet him in November.
.
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. why does that sound ominous?
If you cant get a fix on him before then through videos or speeches and appearances, you never will. He is everywhere at once, I cant imagine you cant see him before November, or, given your comments, why you would want to?
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. I'm a nurse, in Ohio....
he is our Congressman....I belong to a medical specialty group which have legislative liaisons and I am now being assigned to Kucinich.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. I thought the map was a dead giveaway.
:shrug:
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. You always give me a good laugh each day I visit DU...
:)
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #11
37. is this post misdirected?
i click on the thread to which it appears to respond and saw no hate.

did you click "reply" on the wrong post?
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Well, maybe not hate and I may be
experiencing some residual from previously slasher- bash threads but the "digs" were there as well as the tone. I had the impulse to nip things in the bud. I've bitten my lip a lot since Friday....
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:44 AM
Response to Original message
10. My take on this comment.
The enthusiasm is not transferrable. Dean can urge his supporters until he's blue in the face but the only way that they're going to really get behind someone is if they find someone else they can get enthused about. Any other Dem candidate except possibly Lieberman will get my vote but not my enthusiasm...that enthusiasm translates into willingness to talk up a candidate and work and volunteer for him/her. If Dean falters and another candidate who gives me the impression they won't fuck me over for political gain comes along then I'll gladly support them wholeheartedly. There's only one other candidate in the race right now who gives me that impression, however, and another possibility that I know nothing about yet. It ain't Dean's fault he attracts people like me. I'm not going to get excited about say, Lieberman, just because Dean tells me to.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Wotch shoo doin' ?
Interpreting things normally and with plain old common sense?

Don't you know you're supposed to feign outrage at every quip a candidate makes when it's properly spun out of whole cloth into a disruptive itnerpretation that is intended to precipitate a crisis? Get with the program, dude, and start reading between the lines a little more, dammit, there's no room for common-sense reality here.

< /sarcasm>



Click Here To See Fair & Balanced Buttons, Stickers & Magnets!>
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
43. Bingo..................
those Dean supporters are not going to actively support Lieberman, Gephart, etc. They'll vote for them, but as you say, the energy there is not transferable. The Kucinich people seem to getting more desparate each day, parsing every Dean sentence to unravel the pure evil that is Howard Dean. :eyes:
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. I havent called Dean evil
We are far from desparate. Yeah blame the Kucinich supporters :eyes: for the criticisms of Dean. I dont like being a jerk and all but I think most Kucinich supporters are pretty good people.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. No you haven't so rest asured we recognize
your fine dedication to your chosen candidate, Congressman Kucinich.
Kucinich supporters are democrats....that's a good thing. He is a very senative man who has sincere empathy for our country and makes life sacrifices to insure our integrity.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. he implied that we were the ones attacking your guy daily
Now ;) maybe my eyes are growing on me here but Nicholas J has a Kerry avatar. Kerry and Kucinich arent the same person. Thanks though and sorry for the sarcastic remarks.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. I respect that
I try my best, granted its hard as any thing trust me, its one of the hardest things to do. I dont have anyone on ignore although there are a few I would.
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. Sarcasm............
about Dean being evil. I'm sure Kucinich people are just wonderful, but I get sick of Kucinich people (not all, but some regulars) parsing every Dean statement to find some hidden evil that Dean proposes. I'm sick of the whole thing right about now. I seldom react to these baiting posts, but after a while the insipidness becomes overwhelming. I'll now retreat into my little world where everyone gets along and no candidate bashing takes place, seeya.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. thats not Kucinich supporters
Hey I am sick of constantly being told my guy doesnt have a chance, how you think I feel? I feel like I am better apted for Canada or somethin with these views. Last I saw DG Nicholas J was a Kerry supporter. I know only one Kucinich supporter who fits your description. I dont know, but I think to blame this all on all us is a bit far fetched. Look I dont be to be snappy but I for one am a bit frustrated when people tell me that I have to wait for Kucinich's time to come, this is everyone's time. Actually I was talking a few of your fellow Dean supporters, they were pretty cool about us. I hate being told Kucinich doesnt have a chance just because supposely he dont have a chance, because of his last name, etc ad nosaium I dont like it. I dont like what Nic does but I dont like Kerry being insulted either because despite that war vote he has a great record.
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clar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
24. What's really starting to amaze me
is the bitterness and desperation so many here, who support a candidate other than Dean, exhibit. Actually, the above remarks got a thorough raking over at kos, a week or two ago. The upshot is that Dean was speaking about the difficulty of transferring the enthusisam of his grassroots. Dean has repeatedly stated that he will work diligently for the nominee, whoever it may be.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. Maybe those who don't want Dean are desperate
Because we would rather win.
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whirlygigspin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #24
34. oh gawd
Why do I keep getting this awful feeling that the dems will once
again lose to Bush by forming a circular firing squad?

maybe the "stop Dean! he's popular"
movement might explain it.

UGG!

Yup, real winners at this barn dance.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. Dems have never lost to Bush in a circular firing squad
Dems won the last election fair and square, and they'll win the next one too.



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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #38
46. How can any Democrat explain ...
... how a candidate whose policies and principles would (assumedly) be of greater benefit to 80-90% of the electorate lost the votes of nearly half of those people?

Oh, I know, it's somebody else's fault. Uh-huh. :eyes: I guess it's real important to have someone to blame for a failure -- even more important than succeeding. Yup. Isn't it nice there're Greens around? Handy scapegoats -- too few in numbers to really defend themselves ... let alone be a threat.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #46
52. Hey, lay off a bit will ya?
Gore did win the election, and if I read your post correctly, your complaint is that Gore should have won in a landslide, not by a small margin. I agree with you. I think the combo of Lieberman as a running mate, choosing to never mention Bill Clinton and their record, and the press's rabid reporting against Gore all added together to make the margin smaller.

Gore still won despite the mistakes and the vast right-wing consipracy.

And I hope you weren't referring to me personally about scapegoating Greens because I never, ever scapegoat, and I have nothing bad to say about Greens as a group (although I may have criticized someone who happens to be a Green, but not for being a Green).



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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. "One more such victory and I am lost" (Pyrrhus)
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union_maid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #34
41. I see no circular firing squad
And that makes me very happy. Of course the candidates are going to have to argue for themselves. It is a campaign, after all. The fact that this minor sniping gets so much attention just means to me that most of the candidates have been remarkably "on message", which is to get rid of Bush. Admittedly, I haven't ever followed a primary campaign this closely. I don't even usually vote in the primaries. I'm generally undecided about which candidate would be best and am content to support the Democrat that's chosen. Still, this one seems remarkable for the amount of time each candidate spends on Bush. That is so important, because since he's running unopposed it seemed like he'd have so much more time to campaign for himself, while our guys would be tearing each other apart. In fact, just the opposite is occurring. They're saving their real ammunition for after the primaries, but in the meantime each debate and appearance by the Democratic candidates is hammering home how bad this administration is.

What goes on here between supporters of various candidates is one thing. That's to be expected, too. People put invest a lot of emotional capital and hard work for the candidate of their choice. Passions are going to run high. But I think that the candidates are doing a great job, overall, of using their campaigns as the first salvo in the Big One. It'll probably heat up as time goes on, but the emphasis is in the right place now.
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tsipple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
40. Can't Find a Single Word I Disagree With
Assuming the quote is accurate, I totally agree with what Dean said.

What's to disagree with? Dean is bringing new people into the process, and they will need reason to vote for someone else. Of course he's right. He can't just go out and say, "Vote for the other guy now." They need a reason.

Richard Blow essentially says the same thing in TomPaine. (He's the former executive editor of George Magazine.)

By the way, it's OK to quote selectively, but just be upfront about it. Dean also said that he would support the Democratic nominee and urge his supporters to do the same. (You can find plenty of those quotes if you like. Please do post them when you get a chance. By the way, here's a link to the original source article. Much better to go right to the primary source rather than the secondary one.)

But he (and his supporters) need a reason.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #40
62. Great Article
The LA Weekly story, I mean, thanks for the link.

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
44. Seems to me that DUers are demonstrating the truth in Dean's words.
The internecine animosities I see on this board would indicate to me the creation of such a degree of 'bad blood' that the zealous supporters of each candidate both create and are subject to the 'disappointment and resentment' effect. When the supporters of candidate 'X' bash candidate 'Y', how do they expect those 'Y' supporters to happily come around to support 'X'??

This behavior seems targeted towrds one thing: having someone to blame when you lose. As such, it increases the liklihood of losing.

It's too bad folks don't comprehend that playing 'win-lose' is, in effect, playing 'lose-lose'. Real life isn't a zero-sum game.
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tsipple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. Bingo
If you want someone's support, you have to ask for it and explain why you should get it.
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
56. A misread
Others have already hit on this. The man is speaking to human nature. When someone pours energy and emotion into a cause and it does not succeed, that emotion is not necessarily transferrable to the victor.

When Al Gore threw in the towel, I did not become a Bush fan.

Howard Dean has said on many occasions that he would support the Democratic nominee, regardless of outcome. Of course, he always caveats it with "I expect to be the winner". (The man is a politician) Nonetheless he has stated many times that the true priority is regime change in DC and that any of the Democratic candidates would make a better President than what we have now.



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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
57. What nonsense! Dean's point is that it isn't HIS decision
Dean is just stating a fact -- one that is obvious to anyone attending Dean meetups (at least the ones that I've been to) and one that I've made on this board many times.

Dean WILL support the nominee, even if it isn't him (he's said so several times), but he isn't a puppet master to the thousands of people who have volunteered for him. They chose to support Dean for a reason and it ISN'T transferrable.

Dean's network of support is a big strength for him and, IMO, the main reason he can beat bush (he has the unique ability to run an effect, national grassroots campaign that no other candidate has ever had the combination of luck, talent and technology to run). But that network is made up of individuals with their own minds. They support Dean, but he doesn't own them.


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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
58. Dean's Just Telling It Like It Is
I believe his assessment is correct. Besides, no leader can just say to his followers, "Support that person," and have them all obey like robots.

Dean clearly said in the non-quoted portion of that article that he'd endorse the Dem nominee. If the nominee was someone Dean respected, I bet he'd even endorse the nominee strongly and work hard.

And I'm all good with that.

DTH
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chaumont58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
59. Jesus christ, he's telling the truth!
Imagine a person is an involved campaign worker and a supporter, what the hell would that person feel if the object of his reason for being a worker or supporter doesn't win the nomination. The disappointment is goign to be REAL. I guess the TNR would have the worker drone like shuffle off into the sunset.
The New Republic should change their name to either The New RepubliCAN or the New LIKUD.
Does anyone sane think the Dean supporters are going to back Bush, or Nader(he will run, and pocket a big piece of change from repukes again). I am a Dean supporter, but if Governor Dean doesn't win, I will back the nominee, including Lieberman. I can say including Lieberman because I know with a biblical certainty that he will not win. I dislike Lieberman with an intensity that borders on hatred. I suspect that when TNR isn't fellating Bush, they fellate Lieberman.
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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
60. Over and over and over and over
again....

Same shit, different day....

I at least demand that you get some new material!

That quote of Dean's is from months ago...and part of what Dean said is left out. He stated that he would support whomever got the party's nomination.....

For those of you who seem to be having a problem with this....I'll repeat: he said that he would support the dem nominee....and it was inresponse to a question about whether he would run as a independent....

Perhaps what is so wrong with this picture is that we have a candidate who answers honestly about things...not putting the usual politico bullshit on things....most politicians pollish a turd and tell you it's gold....Dean knows who his supporters are!

A significant portion of his supporters are independents who havent been invovled in politics for years, if ever and republicans that are horrified at what Bush is doing to this country....so how exactly is the Governor going to get these people, who are involved in a party they were not involved with before, interested in voting for another Dem?

Will the teamsters who support Gephardt support another Dem? Will the greens who support Kucinich support another Dem?

To a ceratin degree this is relieving...I have been through enough Dem presidential campaigns that I have been waiting for the other shoe to drop...but if what has been going on on DU the last week is all they got....well, to continue the shoe analogy, he's a shoe in for the nomination!

Perhaps everyone should take Clinton's advice: Fall in love with your candidate during the primary, but fall in line with the nominee for the general election!!!!

And to ensure that our eventual candidate succeeds...look at my sig line....my $20 a month is going in...is yours?!!
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #60
74. Same old response: Dean a) didn't mean it, b) has "evolved" since then,

c) is so wonderful we don't CARE what he says or does, we just LOVE him, or d) all of the above.

Dean does indeed know who his supporters are -- people so devoted to him they'll forgive anything and spin the shit he says into what may seem valuable but is in fact fool's gold.


If you look back up at the TNR article, it's dated 9/2. That's less than two weeks ago. The author didn't give a date for the quote, I never saw it before, never saw the TNR article before. If you're saying it was posted at DU before, I never saw it. Someone else said it was thoroughly discussed at kos. Fine, but I don't go to kos. Am I supposed to read everything on the net or just be a mind reader?


Interesting that you said: "Perhaps everyone should take Clinton's advice: Fall in love with your candidate during the primary, but fall in line with the nominee for the general election!!! "

Go back and actually *read* my post, because I used the same quote from the Big Dog.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #74
77. You Left Off "E"
E: Your obvious hard-on for Dean has been noticed by many people, and it's getting OLD. You don't like him, and will use any excuse to post something negative about him - even when there's no "there" there.

Why not post post some glowing press about Kucinich? It doesn't have to be from this year.
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #74
78. You're the one who has a blind
dislike for the man and his supporters, wouldn't matter what we said you'd come back and tell us we're sheep. Fine. Dean has said many times he'll support the nominee. End of stroy.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
63. HE HAS ALREADY URGED SUPPORTERS TO BACK ABB
I've heard him do that myself.

PLUS, one of his best lines goes something like this: If you care about deficits and the economy, (QUOTE :) "You better elect a Democrat because Republicans can't handle money."

And I also don't trust the quote -- something seems slightly off about it. I could be wrong -- it might be just your anti-Dean frame around it throwing me off.

However, he absolutely, positively has an important point that all the other candidates are going to have to understand if Dean doesn't get the nomination. A very, very large percentage of Dean supporters have NEVER been involved in politics before. They are in politics now not just because they hate Bush but because they feel empowered by Dean's candidacy -- Dean's authenticity, honesty, candor, unscriptedness, policies, energy, strength, character and sheer guts. Everyone else represents what I call "20th Century politics." Dean is nothing short of a revolution in his willingness and ability to draw people INTO the process and help them understand that they DO have a say and a stake in the political process.

What Dea offers simply ISN'T transferrable. And Dean can tell his supporters all day long to go vote for someone else if he's not the nominee, but he certainly can't make them do it. If the nominee isn't Dean, the nominee will have to earn the votes, just as Howard is doing.

And that's what Dean was referring to. The others have policy differences, Dean offers that plus a substantial, people-empowering difference in the way we DO politics.

Eloriel

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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
65. I searched the LA Weekly website for
that quote about Wesley Clark and I couldn't find anything to even remotely match it. I think the New Republic needs to do some fact checking on their articles
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #65
69. I found it -- just Google "LA+Weekly+Howard Dean" and it'll be the

first story. It's by Jamie Wolf and is called "Out in Left Field." It's very long and you have to scroll down a long ways.

I posted this in another thread so people would see that the article does exist and I sent you a PM, too. The link is there, too.

Thanks for asking the question.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
76. More twisting words
And all of them designed to get us to fight amongst ourselves.
You would think that we would learn after a few times not to fall for that shit but it doesnt happen.
How do you tell when you are being manipulated? When someone else give s you the interpretation of what has been said it is a dead giveaway.
Remember when Al Gore said I took the initiative in creating the Internet and the interpretation was He says he invented the Internet. And the interpretation became fact and dwelt among us.
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