Brandi Swindell (sp?) & kids arrested trying to break & enter TS' hospice

[paineinthearse]

I've been following this drama on :puke: FAUX. Earlier they had a staged interview where Brandi Swindell (sp?) announced her intent to bring water to TS.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3339819&mesg_id=3339872&page=

Before commercial break, they showed her AND HER KIDS in handcuffs.

Story shortly.

What a charade!!!!



Gabriel Keys (foreground) is arrested by police officers for trespassing in Pinellas Park, Florida, March 23, 2005. The young protester attempted to take a glass of water into the Woodside Hospice for the brain-damaged Terri Schiavo. A federal judge rejected a request from the parents of Schiavo to order her feeding tube reinserted, dealing a blow to attempts by the U.S. Congress and the White House to prolong her life. REUTERS/Carlos Barria

[Merlot]

1. Since Ms. Schivo has no ability to swallow

giving her water would probably choke and kill her.

The best intentions of idiots can be dangerous indeed.

[FreedomAngel82]

2. They can thank

the msm and their dear political leaders for the misinformation. Wouldn't it be ironic if one of them succeeded and did kill her? Would they get tried for murder? :shrug: I'm just wondering.

[tubbacheez]

5. Manslaugher at most. No evidence of malicious intent. nt

[fob]

18. Are you sure? Just manslaughter? Afterall the REAL info is out there

for these people to KNOW that actually pouring water down her throat could cause her to drown. And there PLAN is to do just that. Ignorance is not a defense of this PREMEDITATED PLAN, at least as far as the attorney I play here at DU is concerned. :evilgrin:

[tubbacheez]

21. Not 100% sure, but fairly confident that murder 1 and murder 2 will...

... be missing a key element for conviction.


Premeditation alone does not prove 1st degree murder. The mens rea needs to be premeditation to actually kill the victim.

Aggravated murder doesn't seem to fit either, since again the goal was not to kill, but to heal. And these folks, however entrenched in their delusions, were calm and collected when they made their attempt.






Practicing medicine without a license could be an interesting criminal charge.

And a civil suit for wrongful death could be reasonable if they stupidly drown her with a glass of water.





But I'm having a hard time seeing how anyone would get all the elements of 1st or 2nd degree murder proven.

[fob]

24. OK, so it's the INTENT part that is missing. Despite all of the evidence

available that their actions would be harmful, and their premeditation to do it anyway, they can say ther INTENT was to "save" her. So in reality, WILLFUL IGNORANCE is a defense to Murder 1 or 2 in this case.

Thanks. And the other charges you mention should be added too if they "succeed catastrophically" to do this. They would also be trespassing and probably several other things too.

[tubbacheez]

25. Ignorance of the law is not a defense. But ignorance of the potential...

... consequences of one's action IS a defense.


Depending on circumstances, it may or may not be GOOD defense... as in good enough to reach acquittal. But, yes, it's available as a defense.


(The "willful" part would need to be proven by prosecution.)




Many states have "good Samaritan" clauses which allow, for example, a non-doctor to attempt life-saving measures without fear of being charged with a crime or a civil suit later on.

[fob]

26. You're good! I actually went back and added "willful" just before

posting because in my eyes the case is so public and the information that should tell these knuckledraggers that pouring water down the throat of a person who CAN'T swallow reflexively could cause the person to aspirate the water and drown! So if they proceed with their plan they have chosen to ignore the facts because their beliefs are overriding their own decision-making process.

[tubbacheez]

27. If they don't have that info and show they could not be expected to have..

that info, it would be difficult to prove they purposefully, intentionally, or willfully disregarded it.

It's not like Terri's room had a multiple signs posted on the door saying not to put anything into her mouth. Ignoring something like that would be willful disregard.

But there's no requirement that the family stay abreast of latest news, much less the same news you and I get. So the prosecution would not use a claim like "But everybody knew she couldn't swallow".







In civil torts, a defendant is usually held responsible for all the consequences of his action... even if he could not have foreseen them.

For criminal charges, the state law spells out the checklist of elements that must be proven in order to convict.

If they had succeeded in putting something into Terri's mouth, and then she died as a direct result, a wrongful death suit is more likely to stick than a murder conviction.

[fob]

28. How about a line of questioning like this;

You assert;
But there's no requirement that the family stay abreast of lates
t news, much less the same news you and I get. So the prosecution would not use a claim like "But everybody knew she couldn't swallow".

As a prosecutor (assuming the defendant testifies of course), you could ask them how they came to know about the story in the first place. Did you read any of the stories about Terri's condition? Did you read any of the court decisions? Did you read any info on the swallowing tests Terri had done? You say you learned of Terri through your (insert fundy religious group here), and in front of you is some of their literature that discounts some of the known facts regarding Terri's condition, did you read that prior to your actions with the glass of water? ( I ask that hypothetical because some of the fundy sites I've seen bring up the technial aspects and proceed to blow it off)

My point is that there is enough info out there that it's possible that they could have that info.

[tubbacheez]

29. Oh yes, it's POSSIBLE they could have such info.

Very possible, since so many other people have it.


But should they be EXPECTED to have it, and then be legally held to that expectation?

What you're bordering on suggesting is that mainstream news burdens all citizens with a "duty of care". In the court of public opinion, this is considered common sense. Obviously, only a total idiot or an evil person would do something that most people know would harm Terri. Neither label is fun to receive.

But in courts of law, different and more traditional standards will take precedence. In law, we treat the total idiot and the evil person very differently. So it becomes critically important to use careful legal tests in order to distinguish the two.

[fob]

30. I see. You're right again, since I regard these people and their actions

as totally evil idiots, I overlooked the obvious distinction of the POSSIBILITY of having the information with the EXPECTATION that they should have it.

Do you accept retainers?

Tubba Cheez, Atty at Law

Maybe you should have your own show; Law & Order DU

[tubbacheez]

31. Thank you, I am but a novice in these matters.

But maybe in a few years, I'll do something more high profile for our cause.



Cheers!
:)

[darkism]

13. " "The best intentions of idiots can be dangerous indeed."

Great quote, I think I'll use it some time :)

[Pool Hall Ace]

3. You mean . . . this is not a symbolic gesture?

People honestly think they can hand Terri a glass of water and she will start sipping? :crazy:

[tubbacheez]

6. I'm surprised PowerAde and Gatorade haven't chimed in yet. nt

[killbotfactory]

7. If you listened to right wing sources, yes

She'll even get up and dance with you. It's all a conspiracy to kill an innocent woman.

[Merlot]

8. Yes, I think they picture "poor Terri" being all partched

and thirsty. I also think a symbolic gesture is beyond these people who take everything literally.

[ContraBass Black]

40. They're being told that she's awake

And shown video of her blinking and turning her head. How are they to know the difference?

[chelsea0011]

4. I saw an ad a couple of days ago

470,000 people in Massachusetts go to bed the same way they got up in the morning....hungry. My guess their is that with no media for photos for these clowns, they don't care about hunger.

[killbotfactory]

9. Send in the clown!

Where's a faith healer when you need one?

[ultraist]

10. Those parents should be charged with child abuse

If any other parent had their child break the law and put them through the arrest procedure, which can be traumatizing for a kid, they would be charged with maltreatment.

It's very concerning that these cult followers are using their children this way.

What are they going to do next? I'm worried they may start killing Hospice nurses like they killed abortion doctors.

[cynatnite]

14. It reminds me of parents...

who would dress their kids in KKK sheets.

[KansDem]

15. This is Florida; can't the kid be tried as an adult?

I mean, some children as young as 12 in other parts of the country have been arrested and tried as adults, so what not in this case? After all, the Bushistas are known as fervent "law and order" types, and there is that "personal responsibility" mantra of the GOP, so wouldn't they want to use this kid as an example?

[animuscitizen]

39. We should flood Florida's Dept. of Children and Families with calls

If an incident of child abuse or neglect is reported to the state, the state DCF often is required to investigate the complaint in some way.

Does anyone have Florida's child maltreatment hotline number?

[Blue_Roses]

41. I agree

this is beyond ridiculous

[LuminousX]

11. These are people

These are people who think the feeding tube is in her mouth. These are people who are clueless about the actual situation Terri is in.

I swear to god, that if it wouldn't be such an affront to the Schindler-Schiavo rights to privacy, all these people should be forced to sit in the room with Terri for an hour and see what a persistent vegetative state is really like. It would freak them out.

[paineinthearse]

12. FAUX talking head is a lying sack of shit

Voice over picture....."...live from outside TS' hospice..." Showed the kid in the pic above before being handcuffed and put into the police car.

[CottonBear]

16. If this was a liberal protest event, the kids would've been pepper sprayed

beaten and tasered. I cna't believe they are allowing these idiots to disrupt the hospice patients and their families. Have they no shame. It's akin to their protests outside of abortion clinicns.

I'm not saying they can't protest but please think of the hospice patients. That would be the Christian thing to do.

[paineinthearse]

17. Sheesh! This photo is now the #3 most emailed.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=index2&cid=702

[MsTryska]

19. umm....do these people know

that trying to give her water, through her mouth could kill her?


she can aspirate it and die of pneumonia, or drown.


no ability to swallow also means no gag reflex.

[Nickster]

20. Of course it's a charade.

These are all martyrs for the cause. Great photo oppty for the right wing nut jobs to show how them dirty libruls will handcuff and jail a poor lil kid for just trying to bring a glass of water to a dying soul. It's all about the theater. They have no shame.

[mondo joe]

22. Could these threats of break-in constitute a case to move

Terri to an undisclosed location?

[kcass1954]

23. Oh yeah... for her own safety and well-being.

This might be Jebbie's answer.

[flvegan]

32. WHAT? NO TASERS!!!!!!??????

C'mon Pinellas, you're embarrassing me!

[paineinthearse]

33. Second child (14 years old) used for political ends

Pinellas Park police Lt. Kevin Riley, standing upper right, prepares to arrest members of the Keys family as they were attempting to bring Terri Schiavo water Wednesday morning, March 23, 2005 outside the Woodside Hospice in Pinellas Park, Fla. The Keys family, of Burnet, Tex., kneeling, from left, Josie, 14, Gabriel, 10, Chris, the children's father, and Cameron 12, were all taken into custody. Galen Keys, upper left, the children's mother looks on, but was not arrested.The mother insists it was the children's idea: "I am proud of them," said the boys' mother Geilen Keys from Texas, who was not arrested. "They are very mature and they said 'we want to go and offer some water to Terri'."


Pinellas Park police Lt. Kevin Riley, second from left, handcuffs 14-year-old Josie Keys, left, while Pinellas County Sheriff's deputies place her father Chris in the back of a van after arresting members of the family for trespassing Wednesday morning March 23, 2005 outside the Woodside Hospice in Pinellas Park, Fla. The family members were attempting to bring Terri Schiavo a cup of water.

[paineinthearse]

34. What do freepers say about using children to trespass private property?

Selected excerpts:

"God bless those parents and their kids. Would that thousands would show up and overburden those officers so that enough got through )with trained medical volunteers) to help Terri."

"Surely many of these officers feel the same. God grant that they will not follow these orders to "protect" a woman whom they are killing by arresting those who would try and save her."

"These pictures need broad exposure on FOX and all over the country."

"Liberals just see this as some form of "late term" abortion, thus legal."

"Those kids look home-schooled."..."I'd bet anything these are homeschooled kids who have grown up with strong convictions. I don't think it's a stunt."

much more at http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1369033/posts

[libodem]

35. I wonder if it's the same, Brandi Swindell,

from Boise, who spent the last two years trying to get the Ten Commandments monument put back in Julia Davis Park. She's a religious extremist, nutcase, if it is.

[Left Is Write]

36. Ah! I *knew* I recognized that name!

And she certainly is a nutcase. I've seen her on television crying about discrimination because the monument was moved.

Are you in Boise? Liberals around here are so few and far between...

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

38. My experience in Boise...

From having worked on a few rock concerts there, is that, at least at the concerts, there are not that many really conservative people there.

Or at least that's what it smelled like. ;-)

[paineinthearse]

37. Brandi Swindell

That's the interview that lead off this thread. Something happened in the staging department, FAUX interviewed her, she announced she would be trying to get in to bring water, then went to commercial. When they came back they moved on to other "features", never got back to her.

Finally when there was a "water action" it was the kids.