WTH? Who saw ABC News report on "Shroud of Turin" tonight?

[Stephanie]

The ABC report was about a grad student who figured out that he could create a facsimile of the original by leaving an image on top of a dark cloth out in the sun. The cloth faded leaving the image dark, which looks just like the shroud. It was a sort of debunking of the shroud of Turin story. Also, the story reported that the shroud is probably no more than 600 years old, not 2000.

I went to look for the article, to post here. THIS is what ABC posted:

_______________

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=453201

Shroud of Turin Could Date to Jesus' Time
Chemist Says New Analyses of Shroud of Turin Show That Cloth Could Date Back to Time of Jesus

_______________


Did I see the TV news story I thought I saw? WTF? Can anyone confirm the weirdness of this?

[jojo54]

1. I can!

I saw the report. I was going to post this earlier, but didn't think anyone else watched. I looked for the article and couldn't believe what I was reading. There's absolutely NO mention of the sun experiment!

WTF????????

[Stephanie]

43. It's so weird!

This is the newscast I saw last night, with one very strange change. The posted story is just the opposite of the reported story. I think we should send this to media beat reporters like Dan Froomkin. If ABC News is bowing to the radical religious right on their nightly news show it's pretty outrageous.

_____________

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/

* Mourners Hold Vigil After School Shooting
* Small Guard Unit Fends Off Dozens of Iraqi Insurgents
* Insurgent Training Camp Found in N. Iraq
* Graco Infant Products Recalled
* Shroud of Turin Could Date to Jesus' Time

_____________

[hfojvt]

2. same here

that story seems to be going in the opposite direction of what they put on TV.

[The_Casual_Observer]

3. This story returns from the dead every few years

The myth gets clobbered and disappears for a while, reemerging when the time is right, usually during "slow news" periods.

[TheWraith]

11. Actually, the story reemerges because no scientific tests can agree

On how the image came to be on the cloth, or how old the cloth itself is. Contrary to some arguments, it's not easy or simple to reproduce, and the age is far from settled. Besides which, there are other questions raised by the testing.

[frictionlessO]

37. Funny how it always seems to pop up big in the news 'round Easter

I'm just saying..... is all.










edit:needs more coffee

[BurtWorm]

4. You saw the report Jesus meant for heathen's eyes only.

Believers saw the other story. Praise the lord.

[Robeson]

5. Anybody could recreate it. The "Shroud" Its total Bullsh!t....

...Here's a good summary of how bogus it is:

http://www.livescience.com/history/050318_reason_turin_shroud.html

[TheWraith]

15. A couple problems with that account.

It talks about a bishop who got a supposed forger to confess how the cloth was 'cunningly painted'. The cloth wasn't painted, to the best determination of forensic science. McCrone was at least mostly wrong on that account, as modern scientists with better tech still can't agree on how the primary image was deposited on the cloth, but can agree that the large volume of it couldn't have been painted. Second, a variety of carbon dating tests have been performed, and they can't agree on results either. Depending on who you listen to, it's anywhere from 500 to 3000 years old.

On edit: I forgot to add that McCrone, who they relied on heavily for proof of forgery, has had his accuracy called into question in other high-profile cases such as the famous 'Vinland Map':

http://www.answers.com/topic/vinland-map

[Mairead]

34. "Here's a good summary of how bogus it is:"

The author of the article you cite is himself very gullible. He accepts that it's a 14th-c. forgery based on the recorded statement of some bishop.

But if you look at the work of the very best 14th c. artists whose work has survived til today, it should be apparent that none of them had the perceptive skill or even technique to create such an image with paint or painterly techniques. The most 'advanced' artists in the western world lived in Italy at the time, the budding of the Renaissance, but even they were struggling with many things artists take for granted today, like 1- 2- and 3-point perspective, the desaturation of colors with distance, and so forth.

The only way that could be a 14th-c. painting is if there was some über-genius, someone who would unquestionably stand well out in front of the line that today begins with people like da Vinci, Michaelangelo, Rockwell, etc., and who, despite having done enough work to have amassed the skill it would take to do that image, had none of her/his work survive til our time except that image. That doesn't seem credible, somehow.

And I say all this as a total agnostic tending toward atheism.

[OneBlueSky]

6. the Shroud has always been a mystery to me . . .

and that's okay . . . why do we have to know the answer to every mystery? . . . first of all, it's impossible . . . and second of all, if it could be done there wouldn't be any mystery! . . .

mystery is a great spiritual gift . . . we should embrace mystery and appreciate it for what it is -- mystery! . . .

[stopbush]

8. Why embrace a non-existent "mystery" when you can appreciate the

art of a real-live master forger?

[Robeson]

9. I agree. The empirical world is much more interesting...

...than anything a fiction can conjure.

[OneBlueSky]

13. who said anything about fiction? . . .

I'm talking about mystery, things we just can't truly know and understand . . . God, for example . . . God is a mystery, and that's okay . . . (in fact, it helps make makes God God) . . . but exactly who or what God is is also a mystery . . . is God a big powerful man somewhere up in the sky? . . . or is God the Universe? . . . Creation? . . . Nature? . . . a guy named Ed? . . .

my point is these are things we can't know, and that's okay . . . and if we all just accepted that, we might not expend so much ammunition trying to prove that "my God is the REAL God, and yours isn't!" . . . that particular notion has caused a goodly number of wars and the deaths of millions upon millions of people . . .

[Robeson]

22. I don't have a religious or mystical belief system.....

...but you do, and I respect that. So I'm sure you'll respect mine.

[OneBlueSky]

23. sure . . . I should have added . . .

"for those who believe in some kind of higher intelligence and/or spiritual plane" . . .

[Robeson]

25. Kool. Now we can communicate.

[MsUSA]

39. I agree OneBlueSky: mystery?? faith?? It IS what you want to

believe it is.

[ancient_nomad]

7. Turin Shroud Older Than Thought.....

Thought I read about the Shroud a couple months ago, so just
did a google search, and yep, wasn't hallucinating.

snip:

Rossella Lorenzi Discovery News

Wednesday, 26 January 2005

Chemical analysis shows the cloth that formed the Shroud of Turin is up to 3000 years old (Image: NASA) The Shroud of Turin, the piece of linen long-believed to have been wrapped around Jesus' body after the crucifixion, is much older than radiocarbon tests suggest, according to new microchemical research.

snip:

"As unlikely as it seems, the sample used to test the age of the shroud in 1988 was taken from a rewoven area of the shroud. Indeed, the patch was very carefully made. The yarn has the same twist as the main part of the cloth, and it was stained to match the colour," says Raymond Rogers, a retired chemist from Los Alamos National Laboratories and former member of the STURP (Shroud of Turin Research Project) team of US scientists that examined the Shroud in 1978.

Link: http://www.s8int.com/shroud.html

Just found the original article I read - it is much better along with pictures. So, here's the link:
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20050124/shroud.html

[Robeson]

10. Discovery Channel? Not exactly science....

[ancient_nomad]

14. Published in the current issue of Thermochimica Acta, a chemistry peer- re

The Thermochimica Acta is subscription only - I don't have
one. I read the article from Google News (several sources):
one was Yahoo news article, the other from Discovery News.

However, here is a link to Thermochimica Acta thru Science
Direct where you can read a summary.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=IssueURL&_tockey=%23TOC%235292%232005%23995749998%23553672%23FLA%23Volume_425,_Issues_1-2,_Pages_1-208_(20_January_2005)&_auth=y&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=84a81c4c4011154c7a00a63e9c8a751f
(item #26)

Another link to the story is here:
http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/Shroud-Turin-Thermochimica-Acta.htm

[Robeson]

24. Thanks....but your first link did not work, and the second...

...link,is not a valid science source. At least not in acedemia. Again, I'll paste a legitimate science source. Sense I read your article, maybe you'll read the one I posted in my previous post on this thread. Here it is again... http://www.livescience.com/history/050318_reason_turin_shroud.html

[Nadienne]

12. Hmmm

From the article in your first link:

"A chemist who worked on testing of the Shroud of Turin says new analysis of the fiber indicates the cloth that some say was the burial linen of Jesus could be up to 3,000 years old."

Apparently the Shroud of Turin predates Jesus!

[ancient_nomad]

16. Abstract

snip:
In 1988, radiocarbon laboratories at Arizona, Cambridge, and Zurich determined the age of a sample from the Shroud of Turin. They reported that the date of the cloth's production lay between A.D. 1260 and 1390 with 95% confidence. This came as a surprise in view of the technology used to produce the cloth, its chemical composition, and the lack of vanillin in its lignin. The results prompted questions about the validity of the sample.

Preliminary estimates of the kinetics constants for the loss of vanillin from lignin indicate a much older age for the cloth than the radiocarbon analyses. The radiocarbon sampling area is uniquely coated with a yellow–brown plant gum containing dye lakes. Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud.
link:http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6THV-4DTBVHC-1&_user=10&_handle=V-WA-A-W-WE-MsSAYVA-UUW-U-AAAVAVZWEU-AAAADWDUEU-AUWECVW-WE-U&_fmt=summary&_coverDate=01%2F20%2F2005&_rdoc=26&_orig=browse&_srch=%23toc%235292%232005%23995749998%23553672!&_cdi=5292&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=2e980d930e2dd3cc218873f8c7270454


I didn't say the Shroud predated Jesus. I was just trying to introduce new scientific information on the subject. Solid
scientific data, I might add.

Edit:

Here's a link to the entire article. Didn't mean
to have this post be so wide - it is hard to read.:argh:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6THV-4DTBVHC-1&_user=10&_handle=V-WA-A-W-WE-MsSAYVA-UUW-U-AAAVAVZWEU-AAAADWDUEU-AUWECVW-WE-U&_fmt=summary&_coverDate=01%2F20%2F2005&_rdoc=26&_orig=browse&_srch=%23toc%235292%232005%23995749998%23553672!&_cdi=5292&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=2e980d930e2dd3cc218873f8c7270454

[ConsAreLiars]

20. a bit older and it would predate the whole planet

according to the true believers. That would be some fun. A dating technique that has an error of +/- 1000 years doesn't seem particularly relevant to anything.

[Az]

17. The thing is the shroud is bad art

Its typical of the 1300s style of representing the human figure. Elongated face. Eyes too near the top of the head. Modesty forcing the hands to unnaturally cover the genetalia. The hair does not follow the line of gravity and instead hangs straight down the side of the face as if it was from a statue. Forget forgery. Its bad art.

[Mairead]

35. Surely you're joking!

Please point out some 13th c. artist whose work is up to that standard.

[Spider Jerusalem]

18. According to what I've read on the subject...

there's a theory that the so-called "Shroud of Turin" is actually a primitve photograph, and it was likely created by Leonardo da Vinci (and portraits of a younger Da Vinci are remarkably similar to the image on the "Shroud").

[gauguin57]

19. Shroud was debunked by scientists ...

... YEARS ago. It was all over the news back then.

[Robeson]

26. Absolutely......

...it shows how much this country has regressed, that its even being discussed again. It has as much validity as the tooth fairy.

[Domitan]

28. I remember that but

there have been scientific investigations of recent that push the date back. Now, that does not mean that all the scientists will agree with this newfound conclusion.

[IndianaGreen]

38. I recall that the carbon dating set the Shroud as being from Middle Ages

Although the cloth had a Middle Eastern origin, as did the pollen found on it, carbon dating of the cloth established that it was no earlier than the Middle Ages.

[ancient_nomad]

21. Perhaps the scientists who did this research.....

should be told how "wrong" they are!

:think: :spank:

Link:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6THV-4DTBVHC-1&_user=10&_handle=V-WA-A-W-WE-MsSAYVA-UUW-U-AAAVAVZWEU-AAAADWDUEU-AUWECVW-WE-U&_fmt=full&_coverDate=01%2F20%2F2005&_rdoc=26&_orig=browse&_srch=%23toc%235292%232005%23995749998%23553672!&_cdi=5292&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e2a1def99ff033a5f67c7ed2692ca147

[countryjake]

27. I saw it & can't explain the mystery of the disappearing story...wth?

The guy was a graduate student in literature, Wilson was his name, I think, & he used white paint on a pane of glass & sun-bleaching to produce another very convincing "shroud" face. At the beginning of the story, they stated that recent testing gave evidence which indicated that the actual shroud of Turin was only around 600 yrs. old. The ABC piece actually made two points about the cloth but neither one of them said anything like those links you've got for yesterday's evening news. Weird! Looks as tho we might have a case of religious fanatics working in mysterious ways to control news!

[Locrian]

32. sun of god

wow - that would be ironic that he created it with sun exposure. esp since most of the god myths are astro-theology.

son of god = sun god

[Stephanie]

40. That's exactly it! I couldn't believe that the posted story is opposite

of the broadcast story. I wonder if they took so much grief in the hours between 7:00 pm and when I looked at the website at 1:00 am that they just threw up their hands and posted a completely different story? Where is the grad student with the white paint on a sheet of glass? He painted a face on the glass, laid the glass over a dark cloth and left it out in the sun. 10 days later, voila! Mysterious image appears on the cloth, i.e. the cloth faded except for where the image covered it.

Thanks for confirming what I saw!

[mopaul]

29. the most famous rag in history

and the most famous hoax. mother theresa on a bagel anyone?

[countryjake]

31. Last night's ABC news, Peter Jennings himself, gave a story that agreed...

but now their web site hasn't a trace of the story which aired & instead has posted garbage which suggests the opposite.

[Stephanie]

41. Exactly!

That's what I'm saying - what happened?

[Walt Starr]

30. The Shroud is a total fraud

and comes from a time when local firewood was sold as "splinters of the true cross" and dog bones were sold as "bones of <insert saint's name here>".

[countryjake]

33. Found the guy & his experiment at Discovery News...

Here is the same story that ABC reported on...

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20050228/shroud.html

Experiment: Turin Shroud An Easy Forgery
By Rossella Lorenzi, Discovery News

~snips~

Skeptics have been unable to convincingly demonstrate how a medieval forger could have produced a three-dimensional photonegative.

Nathan Wilson, a fellow of literature at New St. Andrews College, Moscow, Idaho, claims to have successfully created a shroud-like image

"I am as unqualified to work on such a mysterious cloth as any medieval forger. And yet, like that unknown, unwashed villain of the past, I can place an image on linen using such sophisticated tools as glass and sunlight," Wilson wrote.

Rather than attempting to discover how to darken linen without chemicals or paint, Wilson just did the opposite.

Wilson found that when a positive image of a man's face was painted onto glass, and left over linen beneath the sun, a color inversion took place, creating a photo negative.

~~


Not appropriate for a holy week newscast, evidently. Wonder if they got phone calls?

[HereSince1628]

36. I think its an interesting approach, a simple and effective way

of transfering an image. It's certainly something that can be investigated by others.

Questions came to mind for me...the shroud image is quite big, and I thought that 600 years ago glass sheet was made by spinning the molten glass on a rod. How big could glass sheets be?

If the image was transferred would there be evidence of the size of the glass...that is would the bleaching indicate where the glass was laid end to end?

If you could bleach a transfer from glass why not bleach a transfer from a paper or cloth cutout?

It seems there are always questions...

[Stephanie]

42. That's what I'm thinking

They probably got slammed for reporting something so alarming as facts on the news. Thanks for finding the story.

[countryjake]

44. I could care less about the shroud! What the heck is going down with ABC?

I looked all over ABC's website too, trying to find any trace of that experiment; it's been zapped, but good! Took me awhile to find the right google combination in order to get any hit on this kid's discovery, also. Practically every link took me to that Roger's story which is what ABC posted on your links, & I don't even remember the piece we saw mentioning him, at all.

Finally remembered that Wilson was in Idaho, so googled "shroud forgery Wilson Idaho" & the Discovery link I posted was the first hit that popped up. Poor guy...imagine the frustration he must be feeling this morning...finally gets credited with a national news story that can't be found. It sure makes me wonder who is responsible for ABC's mix-up. Did they find out, after the fact, that the kid's experiment was, itself, some hoax? I highly doubt that theory, mainly cause I saw the same piece at 4:55 this morning, on ABC World News Now, so why would they keep showing it if somebody at ABC was duped?

I keep picturing some web-master, lying bound & gagged in a closet somewhere in their offices, ha! Definitely a failure to communicate, between their tv production team & the web techs! Maybe their site was bombarded by emails all evening, & some religious flunky took matters into his own hands, without contacting the tv studio?

At any rate, it's a better mystery than the shroud ever was!