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Jackson4Gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 08:39 PM
Original message
Bill Maher in his own words about Iraq
Edited on Sat Mar-19-05 08:42 PM by Jackson4Gore
As you know from my other thread, I am a big fan of Bill's. I also am a big fan of the first admendment. However, I do disagree in premise with what he is saying, he is somewhat right. Nevertheless, in my view, the ends don't justify the means.

Alot of folks here have yet to even hear or read what exactly Bill has said. All they are saying is, "He drank the Kool-Aide", which is false. If you watch his show you would know he bashes the right wing more than anyone on television.

Here is what he said:

"But look I agree with, Im sure, you and you and, I dont know, maybe you, that I didnt like that he lied to get us into this war. I certainly didnt like that it was conducted in such an incompetent way. But now that hes morphed the script from what it was in 2003 to Im the Johnny Appleseed of democracyand we want to bring freedom to the world. I like that script better, I have to say. I know it was bullshit how we got there. But this script I like better. And it sounds exactly like the script that Carter used to say: human rights, remember that? You cant hate it when Carter and Kennedy said it and I mean loved it when they said it and hate it when Bush says it. Its the same thing."

"Well, I've been saying you can't hate Bush first. You've got to go by the facts first."


More:

"And I said, that's not fair, because, first of all, I'm not a dyed-in-the-wool liberal. I have a lot of positions that are conservative. And I've also been supportive of President Bush now that I think Iraq is turning around.

I'm one of those liberals who said, you know what? You can't work backwards from, I hate Bush, from everything he does, says and smirks, to, here is another bad thing he did. I said, you know what? This is turning out OK in Iraq. He had a bigger and better idea than the most of us. And you have to give up credit for that.

I don't think it -- well, it is partly lucky, because he knew just little enough to imagine a different kind of world. He is a big thinker, Wolf.

You know, with this guy, we thought he was not that bright. But he thinks 100 years ahead, this, Social Security. Bush is so far ahead, I can't even see him. He's just like a little speck on the horizon. But you know what? I'm kidding, but, on the other hand, this plan with the Middle East, I do think it is taking root. I do think that we may have reached the tipping point and there's no turning back.

And this is the guy who nobody else was looking to do this. Not one other person in America was saying, you know what? After 9/11, we have got to go into Iraq. It's just that he lied to get us there. If he could have just been real about it and said, this is why we're doing it, instead of trying to scare us that Saddam Hussein had a death ray and all that stuff.

But you know what? Maybe every war is like that. Maybe you always have to lie to people to get them to go to war."

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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. WHAT? WHAT???? WHAT??????????
"Not one other person in America was saying, you know what?"

WHAT???????????????????
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coloradodem2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. Things in Iraq are not going to get better.
Edited on Sat Mar-19-05 08:49 PM by coloradodem2005
I think that there will be a Shiite Theocracy. Women's rights are weakening there. Look at Statistics. We lost our first 1,000 troops between March 2003 and September 2004. That's 18 months. But the next 500 have died between Sepember 2004 and March 2005. That's 5 months. That shows that the death toll of our troops alone has been on the rise, and we have not even had "Major Combat Operations" in that time. The insurgency still exists. I don't see how things have gotten better really. At least not on a permanent level. With all this talk about a draft, I don't see how it is getting better.

And for the record, Jon Stewart makes fun of the Right Wing much more than Bill Maher does.


On edit: Bush talks about human rights but does not mean human rights the way we think of it. Certainly not the way Carter or Kennedy do. You think that compassion really means compassion with him? No. Freedom? Are you kidding me?
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Jackson4Gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Nope, Stewart may make fun of the right more
but Bill actually insults them and calls them out on their idiocy.
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Skarbrowe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Jon Stewart kinda, kinda said almost, ahh, something like what Bill did.

If I remember correctly, if not, let me know, but I thought I heard Jon Stewart say something like wouldn't it be something if * did end up bringing some kind of democracy or semi-success story to "the region". I think this is right after the first demonstration in Lebanon against Syrian troops being there. Before the big demonstration by the Syrians in Lebanon, uh, and before the even BIGGER demonstration by the anti-Syrians. OK. I'm confused. But, I thought Jon did say "what if" and I remember it made me feel icky. Still love Jon. I think I know what he means. I hate *. So, all my opinions of anything he does has to go through this ugly filter. Hard for me to give him credit for anything. As of yet, I have seen absolutely nothing to give him credit for. Eh, my opinion hasn't changed about Bill Maher. It's neither like or dislike.


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BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. I actually didn't have a dog in this hunt until your post.
Now I can say with total confidence Maher is a moron.

"This is turning out OK in Iraq" proves my point and destroys yours. I won't be watching him.
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Jackson4Gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I said I didn't agree with Maher
But I SUPPORT HIS RIGHT TO EXPRESS AND OPINION. So all the work he did last year to elect Kerry meant nothing? I just don't see how you can dismiss someone over one view point. Isn't that a little Stalinistic?
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well he is wrong. The neocons pointed out the Rumsfield, Cheney,
Bush Sr. Nixon supporters and Reagan supporters that their policies in the Middle East were horrid and creating Islamist fundamentalists... that supporting strongmen and then attack democracies for deposing strong men...well it didn't work and it turned ME into a nightmare.

What else are little teens to do but get political and religious when they are poor and in destabilized oligarchies run by strongmen who steal all the oil wealth and share it with Big Oil in the US?

Big Oil had virtually destroyed any chance of democracy. I do not think Bush came up with any of this. Karl Rove was just opportunistic enough to see the intellectual movement that had taken over the former hawks... and jumped on it. I am sure Bush Jr. had absolutely no intellectual input into the whole thing. The neocons just saw what a nightmare the US led anti-democracy movement was ... and they suggested a Liberal policy change to fix the issue (terrorism & human rights abuses).

Nothing to do with Bush at all. All decided in 1992.
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Alizaryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. I've been doing a lot of thinking and have concluded
that It was not so much the fact that Bush lied to get us into the war but rather that our whole Democratic system failed. It failed to show the lies for what they were from the depths of our government to the many facets of our media and "free" press. This is what sickens,scares and angers me and prevents any possibility of my ever "getting over it".
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BrendaStarr Donating Member (491 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. Aggressive war got the German Nazis hung
Any one who says that this aggressive war of Bush's is good is spitting on those who lost their lives in WW2.

The German Nazis said they needed to remake the world in their own image to protect their people.

That sounds a lot like Bush's BS.

Anyway, what is democracy?

Is it a vote where a good percentage of the ballot boxes are thrown away because a few of the ballots had Saddam written on them.

Is it one vote which was most likely stolen which gives one party ultimate power so that their elected members never have to listen to Americans again for 2 years?

Is it when the rich are given extra money so they can gain control of the news media, and now even the internet via their paid message board trolls and massive donations to right wing internet publications and bloggers.

Actually no, so maybe we better get back to democracy here at home first, because we are so far away from it here we are pretending that pseudo democracy out there is the real thing.
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The Gunslinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
10. BS
Edited on Sat Mar-19-05 09:02 PM by The Gunslinger
"It's just that he lied to get us there."
"But you know what? Maybe every war is like that. Maybe you always have to lie to people to get them to go to war."

Heh no big deal. What's a little white lie every now and then. AS long as its not about a BJ.

He has really drank the kool-aid. This just proves it more. The sad part is that this is what most American's mentality of the whole thing is turning into due to the PNAC media.
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I'd like to see him taken off the air.
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
12. wasn't it blackmail?
when bush followed up the litany of lies told by his piglets by sending 100 plus thousand troops to iraq borders w/out legal UN sanction...the idea being to blackmail the UN and the US congress into supporting the war....the congress had no choice in the matter, but the UN refused. I recall general Wes Clark on one of the sunday 'news' shows saying as much 'well we have to use them now or we look like idiots' (paraphrase)...maher of course forgets all this....bush had control of the nation's defenses when 911 happened, and he knew it was going to happen...maher forgot that too....maher needs a needle, traitor quality
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
13. His whole premise is based on the concept that the ends justify
the means.

I can't accept that. Maybe we are reaching a tipping point, and in a few years all good Arabs will be democrats, except the rich ones who will be republicans, and we could drive from the Mediterranean to Burma without stumbling across a single dictator, but you know what?

The ends don't justify the means.

Means of agressive war will poison every one of those new democracies. Much like the poisoned democracy of Weimar after 1918. And use of those means, if successful, particularly if successful, will encourage the use of those means again and again, and each use will poison more nations against us.

I don't care if the Iraqis copy our constitution word for word, and they have 90% turn out on the vote. I guarantee, it won't last. If it is not something they do for themselves, without American guns at their backs, there will be movements to overthrow whatever government goes in, right from the git go.

Of course, if they do it without American guns, then it will be the Americans behind those movements.
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riverwalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
14. Maher is full of it
"And it sounds exactly like the script that Carter used to say: human rights, remember that? You cant hate it when Carter and Kennedy said it and I mean loved it when they said it and hate it when Bush says it. Its the same thing."

If Bush ever did put those two words together "human" and "rights" he would probably get struck by lightning. How can he POSSIBLY connect what Carter meant by human rights with Dumtwits war of massacre and genocide in Iraq?
The problem with Maher was always clear to me from the beginning. He is a uncompromising supporter of Israel, and it taints his view of everything. At times his racism is pretty obvious.
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
15. Any evidence to show that anything is "taking root" in the M.E., Bill?
Because I see nothing but a huge US propaganda push going on here.
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quiet.american Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
16. If this was supposed to help Maher's case, mission NOT accomplished!
The main point wrong with all the "maybe Bush was right" wafflers is they're enjoying a very selective memory; let's say Bush actually had a virtuous "vision" for the Mid-East -- his lies to Congress and looting of our treasury for his "war" remain treasonable offenses --but with all three branches of government ruled by corrupt Republicans, and FAUX News broadcasting swill, he gets a free ride.

Let's say the true goal, and not the 37th reason grasped upon, was to bring democracy to Iraq -- why did we have to rape Iraq's children to do it? Why did we have to slaughter whole families to do it? Why are 100,000 Iraqis who were supposed to be "liberated" now buried in unmarked and mass graves, and Saddam Hussein is still alive? Further, why did we tie up and bound Iraqi medical personnel so that they could not treat their own people, yet Saddam Hussein underwent a very successful hernia operation on our dime?

Bill Maher is a Kool-Aid drinker.
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