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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:43 AM
Original message
Rape Caught On Tape - Perp Still Found "Not Guilty"
via Feministe

Rape On Tape - Still Not Guilty
Roni writes on a high-profile Chicago rape trial:

There has been a slighty high-profile rape case going on here in the Land of Lincoln. It involves a party, lots of booze, one teen-aged girl, and 4 teen-aged boys. And a videotape.

The accusation went like this: A 16-year-old girl went to a party, got really drunk, passed out, work up the next day half-naked with words written on her in black marker (I assume cu*nt, bitch, whore, etc), two days later is talking to a girlfriend and discovers that there is a sex tape of her with the boys. She recalls nothing. She goes to her parents, they take her to the hospital and the police. Charges are filed. One boy pleads guilty to child porn. Two others have fled the country. The last one?

He was found not-guilty yesterday.

Here are some key tidbits that I found in the way the media has been telling the story:

At the beginning of the video, the young woman is heard either groaning or moaning: Being passed out, I would assume that either way, its not a good way to tell if the woman is consenting to sex. Perhaps this is where the reasonable doubt plays in. The jury isnt talking - yet - so we have to guess.

It is convenient that she doesnt remember anything, Kuzas told the jury. She initiated drinking games, was chugging vodka from a bottle, and went to a party at 2 a.m.

Criminal sexual assault is when it occurs against your will, he said. I also saw on a TV news segment that this attorney asked the young woman if she consented to going to the party and if she consented to getting drunk. Where the fuck does the fury start? What the hell does it matter if she consented to attending a party? Did the front door have a sign on it like at an amusement park: All who enter cannot sue for personal injury. What the fuck?

I know a few people in the rape survivors support network. I think I need to drop them a line and see if they can help me understand this. But to me it looks like another he said, she said case and she lost. And people wonder why women dont report rape more often.


Sometimes I'm ashamed I have a dick.
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Jesus Saves Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. I saw a dateline segment on this very case
Honestly, I had doubts about the case.
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coloradodem2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. True. But the line of reasoning is not a good one.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
125. this happened to my cousin as well.
she was raped by one boy, at a party where she had passed out after drinking.

she came to with him on top of her.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #125
183. I'm so sorry...
Did she report it?

If not, just glance through the responses on the thread, and you'll understand why.

:cry:
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #183
206. Nope for the self-evident reason, as shown by this thread.
There are far too many assholes in the world willing to jump to the defense of teenage rapists.

And far too few to jump to the defense of young women whose crime was underage drinking.

Women always deserve rape somehow, apparently.

Just look at the example of Abu Ghraib, there was a lot bigger outcry here when it was suggested that young boys were being raped than women.

Rape a man? That's an abomination. Rape a woman? Boys will be boys.
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TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #125
249. Happened to me, too, many years ago. Except I didn't "come to."
Not that night, anyway. The next day. I didn't report it....I didn't think it was rape, if you can believe that. I thought you had to be awake to be raped, and I had placed myself in that situation. I blamed myself.

I would think differently now...but it's a different time, and I'm more knowledgeable. I also wouldn't put myself in that situation now, either, though.
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #249
268. I belive it
We are taught to think it's our fault when it's not. I wouldn't put myself in that situation anymore but I have done so many times in my past. I just got lucky or was fortunate enough to have friends who protected me more than once. I'm not sure it's a different time. I think we are having a backlash and women/girls are blamed. I think the messages to young women and men is that women like this. Of course, a young woman would consent to sex with 4 men. Unless they refuse to be alone with men, don't drink or party, don't flirt, then they want sex.

I'm so pissed, so just ignore me.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #268
286. This Was ALWAYS The Message
"It's okay to be a victim. But if you reach for something of your own volition, and/or deny what you don't want, you're The Whore."
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #249
307. Actually,
if the girl was passed out--or even drunk enough to be unable to "give consent"--then it is still rape. She has to give consent for it to be consensual sex, and after a certain point of intoxication, she would be presumed to be unable to give consent in a legal sense--even if she actually said yes (which of course I doubt she did).
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
2. Be more ashamed to be an American, if this is how our legal system works.
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
4. So, if a guy goes to a party, and gets drunk, I can take his wallet?
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 02:03 AM by AlienGirl
He consented to getting drunk, right?

Tucker
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. From the news article posted above
he wasn't acquitted because she was drunk. He was acquitted because the tape didn't show he raped her.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. "Robbins said he had sex with the girl, but in a locked bedroom
and not on tape."
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. correct
I'm missing the point. The prosecution couldn't prove that his having sex with her in a bedroom was non-consensual.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. if he didn't rape her,
then why indeed?
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:17 AM
Original message
if there is a tape of a rape where she is unconscious it's lack of consent
If he was sly enough to rape her in another room off camera, then it means that he is guilty of being an accessory to a crime, and of obstruction of justice, and possibly even failure to render aid depending on what the state laws are there.

If I were this girl, I would save up some dough, invite these guys over, get them drunk and pay some biker dude to sodomize them with an inanimate object while they are unconsious. Film it so the rapist isn't shown on camera and then put it on the internet.

Turnabout is fair play.
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
181. But there isn't a tape of her unconscious, thats your assumption.
Twelve people watched the tape in its entirety, and watched it again during deliberations, and rejected the conclusions that you, who have never seen the tape, assume they should have accepted.

In addition, the defense never put on a case, the jury heard the prosecutors best case, and just didn't see a crime on that tape.

Apparently, the clairvoyants here on DU know better whats on the tape than the 12 people who saw it.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #181
194. How about you read the article posted below?
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #181
200. they found him not guilty of "criminal sexual assault" because they
couldn't define what he did to her as a SEX ACT. That was what he was charged with, two bad the prosecutor didn't have the foresight to charge him with aggravated assault and battery, aiding and abetting, obstruction of justice, false imprisonment, and any other damn think he could think of. The jury was obviously between a rock and a hard place on this one, given the narrowness of the crime.

His buddies won't be so lucky, I'm sure.
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spunky Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #200
224. I was wondering about that too. Seems like there are a whole
host of possible charges stemming from that case, many of which would have been FAR easier to proove than rape. What was the prosecutor thinking?

Yes, I'm sure the victim would feel better if they were convicted of rape, but I bet she'd be happy just to see them do some time.
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hollywood926 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
138. If she didn't remember,
she was too drunk to consent...

or she has an incredibly bad memory. I'm getting older and I've smoked pot a few times, but I can still remember everything I did last night.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
269. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
131. IF YOU'RE UNCONSCIOUS, YOU CAN'T CONSENT!!!!!!!!!!
This is probably the most disgusting thing I have EVER heard of. So, if a guy gets drunk, I can take off all his clothes and do whatever I want to him, like paint his privates funny colors and take pictures? And that isn't even as intrusive as a rape is.

If you aren't conscious, you CANNOT give consent. I don't see why people find that so difficult to understand. Perhaps getting them drunk and then getting others to have sex with them when they're passed out may change their minds.
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #131
176. Who says she was unconscious? You assume it.
She apparently never claimed to be unconscious.

You do realize, don't you, that this defendant is not shown having sex with her in the video.
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hollywood926 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #176
188. She was unconscious on the tape....they were scribbling all over her
seconds after the sexual encounter. So if she was conscious during the sex, it was barely so.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #176
193. he is in the video actually.
The 20-minute videotape was the centerpiece of the prosecution's case against Robbins. The jury saw the whole tape at the two-day trial and saw portions of it in closing arguments Wednesday. Jurors asked to see parts of it a third time in their deliberations.

The tape never has been made public, and only the jury was able to view it at the trial. Prosecutors said it showed Bezeri and Missbrenner having sex with the girl and several of the young men writing derogatory terms for females on her and performing other degrading acts.

Robbins is seen on the tape appearing to do something that prosecutors said was a sexual act, but defense attorney Robert Kuzas said it was unclear what actually happened.

Robbins said he had sex with the girl, but in a locked bedroom and not on tape.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0503170237...

this guy got off because of the simple principle of "beyond a reasonable doubt", because they could not identify what he did ON TAPE as "criminal sexual assault".

Too bad they did not just charge him with assault. This is one of the reasons that Mark Twain said that a trial is where twelve people sit on a jury and decide who has the better lawyer. This kid is free to gang rape again. One of the kids had child porn, so his boat is sunk.

I don't know ANY women who would consent to having such terms written on their body by a gang of drunk young men. This punk you are defending was shown on tape doing that. Hurrah for him for getting off scot-free. Maybe he'll follow the peer pressure from these upstanding friends of his and get into kiddie porn, too. Then you can really celebrate!
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #131
241. Sorry to disgust you
I stated a simple fact from the news article.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #241
245. What's disgusting is the assumption.
We all read the same article. Some tended towards one conclusion, others to another.

There's another article posted below... much, MUCH more informative.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #245
283. what assumption?
I'm really having a hard time understanding this subthread. I made a very simple factual assertion based on the article I read. Somehow, that disgusted someone. :shrug:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #283
289. The assumption that the guy's not lying, she is.
*sigh*
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #289
294. But I didn't assume that
I stated a fact from the news story. He was acquitted NOT because she was drunk, but because the video did not show him raping her.

Any assumptions beyond that are being made by you and others, not me.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #294
296. No, you just believed what you read.
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 01:10 PM by redqueen
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Sorry to have mislabeled your statement.

Sorry also if some of us are a wee bit defensive about this.

1 in 5, Dookus.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #296
302. sigh
whatever.

The ONLY assertion I've made is that the jury acquitted him NOT because she was drunk, but because they didn't see evidence that he raped her.

I made NO assertions beyond that. Be as defensive as you want, but try to be rational while you're it.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #302
306. They saw the tape.
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 01:24 PM by redqueen
Did you read the information at that link? If they saw the same tape described there, there's no way they could have inferred that somehow she regained consciousness, gave consent, and then passed out again for the rest of the tape.

Also, I apologized for mischaracterizing your comments, and you flame me.

Why?

I didn't insult you, Dookus. I didn't say I was disgusted by your comments. I merely tried to interpret why others may have been.

Jesus... how am I not being rational?
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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #289
300. But aren't you
also ASSUMING that she is not lying and he is? And the burden of PROOF falls on her, not him.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #300
305. Have you read the whole thread?
The problem in cases of rape is the burden of proof... I guess women will just keep not reporting it, since they'll not be believed anyway.
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #300
339. Can you please look at your post in a day or two and
just think. Please think that rape happens and how in the hell do you prove it? I give up.

No, I don't. I think you have engaged in sex where you didn't get consent. Prove that you didn't. Better yet, prove to me that you have never gone to a party and gotten drunk. Why should the young woman, underage, intoxicated, not be given the same standards of proof the adult men do?
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Is It Fascism Yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
23. Right, AlienGirl, that's it, if he gets drunk, we can take his wallet,
fair is fair. Anyone who consents to get drunk is apparently voluteering for any kind of abuse anyone wants to dish out, soon they'll be robbing drunks of body parts, selling kidneys on the black market, and saying, "well, he consented to get drunk, didn't he"?
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #23
44. no,
What they are saying is, if you get drunk, and do something you wouldn't normallly do when sober, then you are responsible for it.

If I get drunk and then kill someone in a bar fight, I can't say "oh I was drunk so I'm not responsible".

Here, if a woman knowingly gets drunk and then, while drunk, voluntarily has sex with somebody, it is not rape.

The issue in this case was, did she consent while drunk, or did she really NOT consent.
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #44
137. Why do you find this so hard to understand??
If you are drunk, your decision making skills are impaired, if not fully knocked out. You CANNOT consent to sex while unconscious.

I know this because my husband was the head of a women's shelter helping women who had been raped and abused: he knows the law. There are very strict parameters to rape, and this case falls smack dab in the middle of them.

And the other poster was right - if this is true, then I can do whatever the hell I want to to any person I get drunk. Steal their wallet, tie them up and leave them outside naked, etc. etc.

And how the hell do you know she 'knowingly got drunk'? What the hell is that? How do you know those male children, no, male brats, didn't slip her GHB?

Knowingly gets drunk and voluntarily has sex - that is one of the least-educated lines I have EVER read on this forum.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #137
191. I have to agree with you
This is the first time I've heard of this particular case, but I see similar patterns all over America.

If you're in a dentist's chair, half-conscious because you're under the influence of atropine and NOX and sedatives during a root canal, you cannot give reliable consent for the dentist to feel you up, dry-hump you, or worse.

If you're under the influence of a date-rape drug, there's no way in Hell you can give consent, even if you were flat-out burning-bush horny just before the chemicals took over your brain.

But remember - if William Kennedy Smith could get away with rape, so can these guys. What a country.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #191
233. unfortunately with dentists and doctors the law protects them
to a certain extent with implied consent.

You'd end up in the same boat as this trial, trying to prove that the contact from the dentist or dr. was a sexual contact, and not part of their duty.

Recently a female cop went undercover with a dentist that was sexually assaulting women in one of those offices where they knock you out. They filmed him reaching up her skirt, fondling her breasts, picking her up and holding her too him, fondling her buttocks, etc, etc.

Talk about the line of duty, but this is what it took, to get this guy.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #137
287. because if she unknowingly got drunk
im sure the article would have mentioned it... since it would be crucial evidence of rape. But then again, you are correct, I cannot say for sure. However, the lack of mention of GHB does lead one to conclude she probably got drunk of her own free will.

People get drunk and have sex all the time, and sometimes they regret doing so later. But that hardly makes it rape. It would be different if she were unconscious and obviously could not consent. Then it would be rape.

i don't even know why I post here anyway, no one wants to have a dialog, they just want to insult me and call me "un-educated."



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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #44
255. my friend you absolutely will be charged with a lesser crime
and do less time if you are drunk and kill someone in a bar fight than if you were sober and it was premeditated. Don't be daft.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #255
292. So if I get drunk and rape a woman, I will get a lesser sentence?????
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 01:31 PM by darboy
I think not! If these men truly DID rape the girl, it won't get them ANYWHERE to claim they were drunk and therefore not responsible.


Drunkenness is not a defense.
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slor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
25. I say this as a man...
maybe we should get these guys drunk, and hang them.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. That's great
advocating murder like that. Disgusting.

I guess things like "innocent until proven guilty"


And other thing: do you consider any sex where alcohol is involved a rape? And in that case, if the boys drank too, weren't they "raped" as well?

If she consented in the drunken state and regretted it afterwards she cannot rescind her consent retroactively.
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slor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. They raped her...
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 08:07 AM by slor
just because you do not want to see it, do not get disgusted by my idea of justice. Maybe death is a little harsh, but they at least deserve some serious jail time.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #31
48. How do you know that for a fact?
Even if they did, he had to be acquitted if the guilt could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #48
184. The randomness of our "justice" system
It is not uncommon for the innocent to be convicted. It is not uncommon for the guilty to be acquitted.

What is equally outrageous is the fact that only in sexual abuse cases do they call the crime "alleged". If you are robbed while on vacation, does the police call the robbery alleged? NO. If you are mugged on the street, do the police say that you were allegedly mugged? No. Why is it that when a child is molested or a women raped that we allow the word "alleged" to be attached to the crime???

:nuke:
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #28
55. Of course it can be rape if there is alcohol involved
And other thing: do you consider any sex where alcohol is involved a rape?

If it's non consentual, it's rape. Is "having sex" with somoene in a coma, sex or rape? Get real.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #55
210. Honorable decent men will say no for this reason.
it's known as not wanting to "take advantage" of someone while they are drunk.
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #28
141. The boys were conscious.
Looks to me like you're advocating rape. Where in the world did you get the idea that she 'consented in the drunken state'????????? There is no such thing. You CANNOT consent when your judgment is impaired. Those 'boys', and I use the word loosely, 'animals is more appropriate, were NOT as impaired as she was.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #28
280. I am so sick of you men who IMAGINE that so many women
are out to make you fuck them only to regret it later and try to claim you raped them.

IT DOESN'T HAPPEN LIKE THAT except in such rare cases that it's not even worth talking about and CERTAINLY not worth worrying your pretty little head about. No woman is going to come snare you with her feminine charms into making love to her only to turn around and nab you with spurious charges of rape.

DON'T YOU GUYS GET IT? Society has made it SO difficult, SO humiliating, SO tough and degrading and emotionally wrenching that even ACTUAL rape victims don't bother to come forward in the first place in most cases.

The statistics are absolutely horrendous: very few rapes are ever even reported; of those, very few men are caught and arrested; and of those, very few are actually convincted and serve time. So those who get away with rape are free to rape again, and ALL rapists are serial rapists.

So you can take your woman-hating fears and anxieties and chuck them where the sun don't shine. Despite what misogynist Hollywood movies would have you believe, women aren't coming after you to prey on you and involve you in their evil plots. And if they have any sense, they're not coming after you for any other reason either.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #280
293. THANK YOU, ELORIEL! --- ALL MEN... READ THE PREVIOUS POST!
*applause*

:yourock:
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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #280
309. Whoaaa
"IT DOESN'T HAPPEN LIKE THAT except in such rare cases that it's not even worth talking about..."

How do YOU know how often it happens? How about some links?

More important, even if false accusations are rare, even ONE, is a horrible, gross injustice, EVEN IF THE ACCUSED IS NOT CRIMINALLY CONVICTED. If the accused is criminally convicted, based on false accusations, then the injustice is beyond gross and becomes shattering and vicious.

We KNOW some people, men and women, are liars. Therefore we KNOW that some false accusations do happen. Whether they are many, or only a few, the presumption of innocence must be maintained. And the 'proof' required for conviction of rape must reach the same standards (beyond a reasonable doubt) of any other criminal accusation.

(As for being a woman hater because one may have the temerity not to agree with every scrap of YOUR opinion, ad-hominen attacks really do not advance your position. Remember, 'ad-hominem' always intellectual panic and inadequacy. I would recommend you do not reply with another ad-hominem attack, but instead focus on the substance of my arguments.)
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #309
313. Spinoza
as a veteran of arguments with these people, I can tell you that they will not take your advice in the last paragraph. It's a shame.

we must remember that women are PEOPLE, not DEITIES. As people, they are subject to the same human flaws, emotions and desires as male people are.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #313
320. "these people"
You act as if it's only women who would like to see people take all the facts into account before kneejerking to support the assumed innocence of the accused.

Is that a fact, do you think? That it's only female DUers who are insisting that people take all the facts into account?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #309
319. According to the FBI, *less than 2%* of accusations are false
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 01:45 PM by redqueen
If you care, you can look it up.

You're right of course that innocent people should not be accused, that's true of any crime, not just rape.

However, if you'd read the entire thread, and the articles mentioned below, I strongly believe you'd find that more likely than not, this 18 year old boy did indeed have some kind of non-consensual relations with this 16 year old girl. Not to mention the fact that she did not know any of her attackers. Do you really believe that someone who comes in after a tape has been started, then stops the tape and sends everyone out, then the tape resumes with the gang rape continuing... that somehow he was able to get consent?
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #309
326. Oh, yes, any false allegation is a terrible thing
but that's not the point.

The point is that there are so FEW of them that that is NOT what should spring immediately to anyone's mind about any rape charge. Period. They are very few and far between -- as already posted, less than 2% of all rape charges are false (and if you remember that a very large percentage of all rapes don't even get REPORTED, the real percentage is even less).

That means there's NO REASON for anyone to automatically assume that any given rape allegation is possibly a lie, or a falsity. There's at least a 98+% chance it's not.

And yet, men LEAP to the conclusion that any controversial rape allegation is false, a lie, automatically and in knee-jerk fashion. It's part of the cultural sexism they insist on hanging onto for personal reasons.

I'll say it again, in slightly differnt way: Women aren't going to make your life miserable by falsely accusing you of rape just because they later decide they don't like you after all.

(Sheesh, I begin to think all this anxiety about being falsely accused of rape is really just another type of performance anxiety, ya know what I mean? Sad.)
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #280
316. AMEN!
Fantastic post.

DTH
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loudestchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #25
39. Get them drunk and tatoo "Rapist " on the forehead?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #25
73. self delete
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 10:39 AM by redqueen
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
46. What A Great Idea!
The Professor
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
297. only if you make him groan or moan;
that means he's ok with you taking his wallet.
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vpigrad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:30 AM
Response to Original message
8. More proof the repukes are in control (ntxt)
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safenfun Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
11. inherent limitations
of the judicial systems of our times.
Even insanity - temporary / fleeting is a valid defence in america.
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Jesus Saves Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. that's not necessarily true
those defenses do not always work...

You can try almost any defense you want, that is a fundamental right. That doesn't mean the jury will buy it.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Yeah, look what happened to Bernie Ebbers.
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Jesus Saves Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. He was convicted
was he not?
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OfTheTaco Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Ugh
Thats disgusting, horray for the justice system
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Jesus Saves Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. ?
?
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. You object to Bernie Ebbers being convicted?
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vpigrad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I think his point...
was to give an example of a valid type of defense. Incompetence is a valid defense. For Ebbers, that was a more than valid defense. He was a gym teacher not a business person.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. insanity defenses
are rarely used (not even allowed in most places) and almost never succeed.
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BikeWriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:43 AM
Response to Original message
20. WTF? That's ghastly!
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
21. The jury obviously had a reasonable doubt about the consent question.
I wasn't on the jury and didn't see and hear the evidence; had I been, I might or might not have voted the same way.
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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #21
96. Juries have been known to be wrong - or do you think
OJ is innocent?
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vpigrad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #96
254. Why the hatred of black entertainers here?
> OJ is innocent?

It seems like two or three times a day here now I read a message that blasts one.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #21
128. Consistently the defender of women's rights!
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #128
281. *snark*
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #21
178. Or they could've just thought the little slut got what she deserved.
Don't EVEN get me started on jury "purity" issues. And as a former LEO, you should know better.

I am stunned at what I'm reading on this thread. Somebody who is unconscious (and that fact wasn't even in dispute, from what the story says) cannot consent.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #178
215. the problem is that she was more likely in a blackout
or semi conscious.

I once fell into a creek out in the woods while drunk and lay there for god knows how long fuming that one of my roommates left the water in the bathroom running.

I couldn't see, couldn't feel the ice cold water(it was november in the appalachian mntns) on my body or in my hair at all, I had absolutely no body sensation whatsoever. When I fell my head had ended up on a rock which is why I didn't drown. I eventually came to and climbed back up the hill to the campsite, but I never felt any sensation or chill from being soaking wet.

The fact is they knew she was drunk, incapable of consent and took advantage of that. Why anyone would defend people who do something like this is beyond me, is it an assertion somehow that gang-rape and body graffiti on drunk teenage girls is every man's fantasy?
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #215
218. I don't know. I'm truly horrified by some of the responses on this thread
It boggles the mind.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
212. no they had a reasonable doubt about the nature of the act that he did.
the attorney couldn't prove it was a sex act, and he was charged with two counts of criminal sexual assault.

It's sparkling clear that this was an assault.
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Is It Fascism Yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:51 AM
Response to Original message
22. LOL, I'm glad you have a dick! It's nice to know that some men understand
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 04:53 AM by Is It Fascism Yet
wtf is going on! Yes, no wonder. I think women prolly got more justice when their brothers used to bash any abusers' faces in.
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eternalburn Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:24 AM
Response to Original message
24. In DuPage County if the victim does not remember.......
....the crime, the accused is home free. No matter who or what witnessed the crime. That seems to be the pattern.

I speak from personal experience unfortunately. October 9th 1993.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. two girls gang raped
by a biker gang in S. IL back in the 70s didn't get justice, either-the jury decided since they agreed to go to a party with the gang, they 'deserved' what they got.

My question about all this is-are the parents of the person holding the party being charged with anything? I thought it was illegal to provide alcohol to underage teens. What if someone had died from drinking too much? Would they have been prosecuted then?
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eternalburn Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Good question.....
....

I don't remember mention of any adult(s) being held responsible for the alcohol.
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Logansquare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #26
119. I hope the victim files a civil suit
She's probably too traumatized to do so, but the "hosts" of the party and the parents of the rapists who fled the country should be cleaned out.
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American in Asia Donating Member (332 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. The best possible face he can put on it
is that he is a total scumbag. Having sex with a drunken 16 year old girl in no shape to give real consent, passing her among your friends, and then writing obnoxious things on her passed out body with magic markers?

Even if he's not guilty of rape, he's a scumbag. Should we be comforted by his plans to go into the Ill. national guard and serve his country? :puke: Guess she wishes he hadn't waited so long to sign up, huh?

Sorry about your experience eternalburn - last estimates I saw were that it happens to around 1 out of every 5 of us. Maybe that makes us a tad pissy about these kinds of things? (sarcasm).
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eternalburn Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. I just worry about the "next ones"....(nt)
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #29
285. Well, there's a ray of hope
Should we be comforted by his plans to go into the Ill. national guard and serve his country?

He might be seeing his own Eternal Justice just a little bit earlier than most.

On the downside, he'll probably be adding to the rapes already happening to our female troops in the military. :-(
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. Trial is in Bridgeview, Cook County
Culver's down the block from the courthouse.
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eternalburn Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. Yes,....
...I know.
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Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
32. How can two teenage boys from Illinois POSSIBLY
Have the means to flee the country?
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Parents with money & guilt & shame. (Sure about the $$$, not the rest..)
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Very affluent area
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Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. That's fucked up
When you teach your kids it's ok to run away from their problems.
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
38. This is a very selective outline of the facts. The jury heard much more.
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 09:05 AM by patcox2
There is simply no way anyone could read this selective and agenda-laden description of the facts and make any kind of valid judgment of what went on here and whether the verdict is just or not. Sorry, but thats just the truth.

She says she passed out and doesn't remember. Fine. You don't even have to consider the possibility that the inherent shame and regret at having consented to a gang bang might be sufficient motivation for someone in her situation to lie. It is possible that her perception is truthful, from her recollection, and still there was in fact no rape. Does the memory loss coincide with the "blackout?" it doesn't have to.

At any rate, is there any first person information here from someone who actually saw the tape? The jury saw the tape, and concluded it did not show a rape. But this writer, who did not see the tape says it did show a rape, so everyone here concludes that the twelve people on the jury are all corrupt or idiots?

Read further, you will see that the tape did not show the individual who was charged having sex with the girl, although it did show two of the other boys apparently doing so. The jury watched the entire video and had it replayed during deliberations. Oh, but this blogger, he or she knows better, and of course people here who now read a distorted third hand account are just so justified in attacking the jury, the justice system, and everything else. Talk about knee-jerk idiotic reactions.

The girl never said that she was passed out, only that she could not remember. Its pretty plain that the video must show someone who is awake, because it is plain under the law that if she were unconscious, it would have been rape.

Its significant that no defense was even offered, the defense rested after the prosecutions case. There was no "smearing of the victim" here, the jury got the prosecutors side of the story un-rebutted and still aquitted.

I am not saying what happened that night, I have no idea, but what all the "jump to conclusions, all rich white boys are evil rapists" crowd can't see is that they have no clue what happened either, just a bunch of preconceptions and prejudices that lead them to an unsupported opinion.
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spunky Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. She was 16. He admitted to having sex with her. Statutory rape.
Period.

She was 16. Somebody owned the house and allowed a SIXTEEN YEAR OLD GIRL to be given alcohol. Period.

She was 16, and ADULTS were doing sexual things to her on that tape, and whether she consented or not, that is molestation of a child.

All of the above things seem to be fact in this case, and all of the above are crimes. SOMEBODY should have done time, other than the guy holding the video camera.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #41
51. If she consented she consented and it was not a rape
It should not be a crime to have consensual sex with a 16 year old. How "liberals" or "progressives" can advocate treating consensual sex likle rape is beyond me.

It is ironic how a conservatiove state like Georgia can have more progressive statutory rape laws than supposedly progressive states of Illinois and California.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #51
54. So if a 15 year old consents is it not rape? A 14 year old? 13? 12? 11?
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 10:04 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
How far are you willing to take this?
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Georgia has a fair law I think
Age of consent 16, but below is ok if the age difference is not too great. So 16 year old having sex with a 15 year old is not a crime.

Having sex with 16 or 17 year old being a crime is insane imho. That "liberals" are defending it doubly so.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #56
62. You extended your arguments beyond this case.
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 10:15 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
Just about every state uses the "it's ok if age difference is not too great" standard. And age of consent in Illinois is 17. Or it was not too long ago. I'm not talkiong about this case. I'm extending it to the general case you made above.

But you are arguing that the age should be permanantly lowered to 16, this case aside. If it were, people would argue that it should be lowered to 15, then 14...there has to be a cut off point somewhere. Why? There's a reason the age of consent laws are in place. That is because adults (those that can vote, smoke, die for their country and SHOULD be able to drink) should know better than to try and sleep with kids.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #56
78. WHAT liberals are saying that?
Statutory rape is one MINOR and one adult. NO ONE has said that it should be illegal for a 16 and 17 year old to have sex. There has to be some cut off though to PROTECT CHILDREN from PREDATOR adults.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #78
120. So an "adult" 18 year old
hving sex with a "child" 17 year old should still be a crime?
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #56
148. The point is not her age. The point is she was impaired.
Can you imagine a situation where, naked, you would let anybody WRITE OFFENSIVE WORDS ON YOUR NAKED BODY?? Huh?

I'll bet you a million bucks you can't.

THAT proves she was so drunk that she didn't know what was going on. And she couldn't, COULD NOT give consent.

If I were her parents I'd be going on a rampage right about now.
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spunky Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #51
63. So its A-okay for an 18 year old to have sex with a half-passed out 16
year old girl?

To me the whole rationale of "statutory rape" is that there is an age prior to which an individual is considered too immature to consent to sex (i.e. unaware of the consequences etc.). I'd say that an incapacitated 16 year old (who shouldn't have been drinking in the first place) is not capable of consent. And I'd call that statutory rape.

Now, if both parties were sober and she consented, I would not call it statutory rape. He took advantage of the situation, and at 18 is considered an adult and should have known better, IMO.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #63
79. Where do you draw the line?
How many drinks? What if both parties have been drinking?

A lot of sex, especially one night stands occur under the influence of alcohol. Just the facts of life.
As far I heard about the case, she was not passed out on the tape but was responsive.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:35 AM
Original message
Oh I'd say when one party is passed out, that's a good place to draw it.
The news reported that the tape showed very little movement on the girl's part. Little to none.
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spunky Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #79
100. Unfortunately, only the jury knows how drunk she appeared
on the tape.

With and ADULT I draw the line when one party is sober enough to be aware of what is going on and the other party is not. If someone is so drunk that they can't remember it happening, and wasn't aware that there was a video camera in the room, then I'd say she was too drunk to consent.

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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #51
76. Yes, it IS statutory rape
How anyone could think that an adult, say a 35 year old, has the right to have sex with a 14 year old, is beyond me. Children and adults have a very assymetrical relationship.

Furthermore, considering the widespread violence against women and children in this society, it would be foolish to open the door for more of that by eliminating statutory rape laws. Men commit 86% of violent crimes in this society.

Please review some facts on this issue including statistics from the US Justice Dept on how many women and girls are raped DAILY. It is a serious problem that is not being addressed adequately.

Progressives, such as myself, do not condone raping children and women. That would be a Biblical fundie freak value.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #76
85. It was not a 35 year old with a 14 year old
But an 18 year old with a 16 year old. Only 2 years difference.

I do not condone rape either, of course, but I also do not condone calling all sex where alcohol is involbved "rape" either. I also do not condone convicting someone without the guilt being proven beyond reasonable doubt.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #85
87. Well the law doesn't agree with you. And the law is what they should have
been tried by.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #85
102. You are misinterepting the law about alcohol being involved
It states that in SOME states, it can be considered that someone who is drunk, lacks the judgment to consent. That is NOT the same as saying that anytime some is drinking and has sex, it's rape. You are overgeneralizing there.

They have not proven anything yet, because two of the PERPETRATORS HAVE FLED THE COUNTRY. They did however prove child porn was ILLEGALLY produced. Child porn is illegal.

We have LAWS TO PROTECT CHILDREN for a good reason. Children are victimized by our society and it IS a horrible social ill. Do you have any clue as to how many children are raped and beaten DAILY? Look it up.

It is the fundies and conservative Bible freaks are opposed to CHILDREN'S RIGHTS and WELFARE laws.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #85
221. he was an accessory to a crime.
he assaulted her and it couldn't be proved that the assault was sexual. The blame here lies with the attorney for not charging him more broadly.

How sad.

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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #51
81. It seems from the evidence that she wasn't in any shape to consent.
No fighting it doesn't mean she consented to it.

They should not have touched her. That's just absolutely disgraceful behavior.
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #51
146. Wrong again.
I'm not at all surprised that this was in the south, or the 'bigot belt', as I like to call it.

And that is NOT a 'more progressive statutory rape law'. ANY law which puts women in a more vulnerable state is NOT progressive.

If you are drunk YOU CANNOT GIVE CONSENT!!!!!!!!!!! WHY is that so hard to understand??
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #51
231. because of the fact that young women are easily manipulated by
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 11:52 AM by jdj
older men, and these assholes know this.

The law is there for a reason and that is to give these pathetic predators fair warning that they need to play ball on an older field, so to speak.

A young girl who is the object of attention from an older man doesn't know how to process this information at all. She doesn't understand that he is a pathetic immature loser who can't make it with women his own age, she thinks that somehow SHE is a mature for her age sophisticated young woman who is too old for the boys in her age group. The predator knows this is how young women want to feel and plays into this. The law knows this is how predators operate and threatens this with jail time if the carry it out.

I just witnessed at situation like this where I work, where my boss's twelve year old daugther (she looks just like the singer Jo-Jo) was being pursued by an 18 year old loser. It was horrible, because the young girl took this the way all young girls would, not being able to see how skeevy and sickening it is from the vantage point of an adult. She was starting to lie to her mom, and go spend time with relatives to sneak off with him, and her mom had to threaten this guy with arrest. That took care of it. Sometimes the law DOES work for the common good.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #51
299. how can she consent if she's passed out?
-
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #41
142. Wrong wrong wrong, assumptions, wrong
If one is under 18, its legal as long as the other is over 16. The defendant aquitted here was not 18 at the time. This is getting silly, everyone assuming facts that just aren't so.
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spunky Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #142
164. None of the articles posted here say what age he was when the
incident occurred, but they do say it happend Dec. 7, 2002, and he is 20 now. So unless his birthday is between Dec. 8 and today, he was 18 when this occured.

And that's old enough to hold him accountable for 1)giving her alcohol, 2)participating in making child pornography. (At least its my understanding that it is always illegal to make sexual photos/videos of anyone under 18)
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Cadence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #38
229. A sixteen year old girl consenting to a gang bang?
Really, that seems plausible to you? At sixteen this girl was so hungry for approval or sexual gratification that she consents to a gang bang? WTF?

That seems more logical to you than she was drunk and unconscious these boys saw an opportunity and took it?

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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #38
295. Just how many women do you know who ever "consented" to
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 01:46 PM by Eloriel
being gang-banged? I really want to know. What a pathetic and misogynist thing to imagine, let alone actually SAY about the female half of the human race:

You don't even have to consider the possibility that the inherent shame and regret at having consented to a gang bang might be sufficient motivation for someone in her situation to lie.

Unbelievable. You HAVE no credibility on the subject after a comment like that, revealing unbelievably negative, degrading and stereotypical attitudes about women.

Further, how ironic. No, make that how FUCKING ironic. You are bashing people on this thread for voicing their opinions because YOU think those opinions aren't based on the FACTS of the case. And yet you say this:

Its pretty plain that the video must show someone who is awake, because it is plain under the law that if she were unconscious, it would have been rape.

As described elsewhere, there was no conviction because they couldn't figure out what kind of sex act was involved from the tape. You're guilty of precisely what you're accusing others of: running off your mouth when YOU don't know what the hell you're talking about.

And this: I am not saying what happened that night, I have no idea,

That's right, you have no idea -- but it doesn't stop you from taking up for the perps by smearing this young woman in one of the most degrading ways I can imagine, and clearly assuming THEIR innocence and that she is lying, does it?
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
40. How can a close to passed out drunk 16 year old
give consent to sex? Let alone, sex with 4 different boys on the same night?

The implication is that if a girl drinks and goes to a party then she consents to any sex act.
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yella_dawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
42. This entire thread reeks of a troubling double standard in our society.
The article, which is hardly objective, repeatedly describes the males as "boys". This was a bunch of kids binge drinking who fell into destructive behavior. All of them, the girl included. The author states that the girl's responses were "not a good way to tell if a woman is consenting to sex" but at no time states that she didn't consent to sex. The article is slanted and inflammatory. ("I assume <vile names>" was the description of the marks found later.) The real story is that these children had access to large quantities of alcohol and were unsupervised for long enough to be completely impaired and thus make serious mistakes.

This group, all of them made a series of poor judgments and ended up involved in unacceptable behavior. As a result, the female is a victim because she exhibited poor judgment under the effects of prodigious amounts of alcohol. In the same circumstances, the males are criminals. That is a double standard.

By the way, I don't buy the "don't remember" line for a minute. She was "groaning or moaning", had sex at least four times, but doesn't have a single memory? I lost my virginity to my stepmother after she got me passing-out drunk. Trust me, you remember.

Obviously "having a dick" doesn't insure having a brain. This isn't a simple case of a bunch of high-school jocks raping an innocent dear who made the mistake of taking a few drinks. This is a case of children without supervision and control who made serious mistakes. If you want to get righteous, nail the parents who let teens attend a party the started at two am.


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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. She could have been experiencing a black-out.
An individual in an alcoholic black-out can be fully functional and coherent, yet remember absolutely nothing that occurred.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. Plus people moan in their sleep, all the time.
As someone who has been on klonopin (legally for depression related problems) you don't remember anything when you first are getting used to the drug (and I was only on .5 mg). One minute you're awake and the next you wake up and hours and hours have passed. My husband tells me he would try and wake me up to get me to move but I would just growl and stay right there. I don't remember that. So it is possible to be so out of it you don't remember anything.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. You don't buy the "can't remember" line?? Have you not heard of klonopin??
First off, this article wasn't written by a newsgroup, check the link. Secondly the word they DID write on her was "slut". That is a fact admitted by the guy that wrote it on her.

Rape isn't a mistake. And there is no way in hell you can put "she passed out" on the same level as "he raped her". NOt the same type of "oopsie". It doesn't matter how innocent she is or isn't. She could be the most sexually active girl IN THE WORLD and it doesn't matter. No consent= RAPE.
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yella_dawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #47
72. Oh. They slipped her klonopin.
I didn't get that from the article. Besides, I never said the posted article was a newsgroup post. I said is is inflammatory and I stand by that. (It is a blog entry.)

I also questioned whether she gave what could be considered consent by a judgmentally impaired minor. The actual news article (linked to the quoted blog entry), and the juror's reactions imply that possibly she did.

Having been the victim of rape under similar circumstances, I'm not trivializing this girls experience. I'm questioning what appears to be a double standard. Everybody got stupid drunk and had sex. One is a victim, the others criminals. I am also pointing out that the parents should be held equally responsible. Note that if you take the ages listed in the actual news article, subtract the two years since the incident, at the time of the party, one male was 18, the rest were minors.

I read the actual news article twice, and still missed the listing of "derogatory" words written on the girl. I'm guilty of writing much worse than "slut" on a (male) member of my Army squad who passed out at a party. Am I a criminal?



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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #72
77. I live in Chicago and have seen coverage of this case all week
Further, I am saying it is possible to be so incapacitated you don't remember anything, not that SHE was on klonopin. She was on alcohol.

One was passed out the others were gang banging her and TAPING it!! You don't see a difference?? The guy that admitted writing slut on her didn't have sex with her, he came in to write the word and I guess...cheer them on in their gang bang.
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yella_dawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #77
123. If you've followed the case in local news...
perhaps you have information I don't have.

Still, your klonopin argument is meaningless. If she was in a trauma induced coma, she might not remember anything either. That something is possible in one circumstance has no bearing on what occurs in another circumstance.

The news article I do have access to implies the jury believed the sex was consensual (no arguments from the defense after the tape was shown supports this idea). A taped consensual gang-bang may not be morally acceptable to either of us, but that doesn't make it criminal.

My point, however, is this whole thing was abhorrent behavior by a group of minors who were illegally impaired by alcohol. No one is troubled about the access they had to alcohol, the lack of parental concern or guidance, or even the fact that the participants were all minors, with one exception (who was barely over the legal line). The rage is about what these awful males did to this poor female, when the girl's story isn't entirely believable in the first place, and the jury (who are the only ones to see the unreleased tape) seems to consider the incident consensual sex (however abhorrent the behavior might be).

Under the circumstances, declaring the males criminals, and the female a victim, smacks of a double standard.

Your dramatic expression of outrage does not change that.


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spunky Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #123
134. A taped consensual gang-bang of a minor is child pornography
and I think its kind of odd that only the guy holding the camera was charged with child pornography.

The 18 year old having sex with her was helping to MAKE child pornography.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #123
140. "The girl's story isn't entirely believable"
Why? Why do you say that? What isn't believable about it? If she wanted to lie, why didn't she say "I remember, I told them no."

I don't care what consenting adults do. But she wasn't an adult, and there is very little evidence she was consenting.

Double standard? If the guy had been passed out and a bunch of girls had taped themselves having sex with him, you bet your ass I'd be calling for them to be named guilty as well.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #140
195. Simple answer: Video
If she were inclined to lie, "I told them no" would have to be supported by videotape evidence. It obviously was not.

The only evidence that she did not consent (the burden of proof is on the prosecution, after all), based upon what I read here, is the claim that she had been drinking and doesn't remember.

I don't know of any other types of crimes where the plaintiff's memory is the sole arbiter of guilt or innocence for the defendant. "I don't remember giving him permission to borrow my car, therefore he's guilty", would be a tough case to make, particularly not when there's videotape that apparently implies (or says) that I did.

More broadly, I find the concurrent "law 'n order" and presumption of female victimhood viewpoints among people who claim to hold the values of empowerment, equality, due process and equal protection somewhat vexing.

As far as the double standard goes, this would not be a topic of outraged discussion were the shoe on the other foot.

Juries can be wrong, but people who haven't seen the evidence are more likely to be.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #195
203. Oh yeah? And how about the teens then spitting on her and writing on her
body? That was on the video. Does that shout the actions of a consensual act?
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #203
332. I don't know...
I wasn't there and didn't see the videotape.

Just like you.
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #195
239. Show the evidence of consent!
An intoxicated 16 year old gives consent to sex with 4 adults, agrees to taping it, and agrees to having slut written on her body. How did she consent to that?! Not likely. The males were adults and she was underage. She was intoxicated and they were not. Consent??
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #239
340. As noted in another post....
Only one of the people was an adult, and they'd all been drinking. Besides - the burden of proof is not on the defense to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she consented, it's on the prosecution to prove that she did not (or was too impaired).

It is apparent that (at least with respect to the defendant in *this* case, as opposed to the ones that fled the country) the videotape did not provide that proof.

Do I think that a crime was committed? Maybe. Maybe even "probably". Do I think there's any doubt about it? Yes.

I'm most concerned at the "string 'em up and let God sort 'em out" attitude among people who usually have a little more respect for our system of law.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #195
244. Might be a good idea to read the whole thread.
There's an article posted below. Link below to a telling excerpt.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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yella_dawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #140
216. Her story is suspicious
based on my personal experience, as I stated in my first post. Both my ex-wife and I lost our virginity to adults while passed-out drunk. Both of us remember the experience. My suspicion is tweaked because she responded to the video tape, not the words written all over her, and, let's be honest here, after a gang bang, she had to have some inkling based on physical evidence.

Whether she was an adult is my point. They were minors. The distinction here seems to hinge on gender, not age, and by the response of the jury, not on consent.

If a guy passed out and you rushed to call "rape" on the minor girls who had sex with him, you would still be taking a short-sighted position that ignores the greater problem. My personal experience, and the experience of those close to me, makes me believe that this sort of thing happens a lot. From that assumption I have built the belief that our culture handles underage drinking and underage sex very poorly. Tossing a few kids behind bars for being callous and stupid while drunk does not solve or even address the problem. Where were her parents?!? Where where the boys' parents'?!?

As a parent, I've busted a kegger organized and supervised by parents after my 14-year-old daughter called, terrified by what she thought was a party for teens (it was, but certainly not in the sense she expected). On discussing this with my 18-year-old son, I found that these parties are common. Locking kids up for going too far doesn't make any difference if the underlying behavior is otherwise condoned.

We do a really lousy job of teaching sex to children.

We do a worse job, (if that's possible) teaching them about alcohol.

Yet most of the posters on this thread want to bang a few of these kids behind bars, so far as I can tell, because they have dicks. The evidence from the trial doesn't support any other reason.

The assumed rapists were kids. That is a major part of my point. All the kids at this party displayed horrible judgement. IF, and I must emphasize the IF, this girl didn't consent, whether she remembers consent or not, that is a different story. But one real issue here is whether a drunk minor was able to determine a lack of consent. If I use the techniques of the blogger quoted in the original post, I can assume that this drunken girl was suggestive and inviting right up until she passed out, at which time a drunken boy misinterpreted a moan as consent, based on the girl's earlier statements.

These were kids. They were judgementally impaired. You want to hang someone, hang the parents that enabled this situation.


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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #216
228. Doesn't matter how much she "invited"
"I can assume that this drunken girl was suggestive and inviting right up until she passed out, at which time a drunken boy misinterpreted a moan as consent, based on the girl's earlier statements."


Rape is still rape. And those whose home was used are facing charges. They wrote and spit on her. That is on tape.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #216
247. "assumed rapists"? They MANIPULATED HER LEGS.
They SPIT ON HER and she DID NOT RESPOND. She was UNCONSCIOUS!

:crazy:
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #216
257. they were 19, 19, and 20. they were not kids.
they damn well know this was statutory.

The girl "responded" the next morning when she woke up to graffiti scribbled all over her body.

What part of rape don't you understand?

Please God, I hope you never have any daughters.
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hollywood926 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #42
150. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this...
The article, which is hardly objective, repeatedly describes the males as "boys".

So?
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yella_dawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #150
225. Boys
as in male children. That is a major point here that no one wants to address. This incident involved a bunch of kids. The outrage should surround the parents who enabled this situation, not the kids.

Young, drunk, and stupid is regretable, but not criminal. Allowing children to behave in this manner is criminal.


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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #225
251. The guy was 18... yet his parents are responsible for his raping a girl?
Are you serious?
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #225
261. once again, they were over 18.
that's the age of consent, they know they can vote, they know they have to register for the draft, and they know that gang-raping a drunk sixteen year old is wrong.

why didn't you have the balls to put "boys will be boys" at the top of your post.

you know, these are the same ages as the some of the soldiers in the My Lai massacre, in the Abu Ghrabi torture photos too. They are only kids. They didn't know right from wrong. Boys will be boys, bless their hearts.
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spunky Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
43. The more I think about this, the more disgusted I am
Fine, I didn't see the tape. Seems like a crime even without tape actually showing rape since she was underage, given alcohol and had sex with someone who was 18 at the time.

But the thing that really, really, really disgusts me about this, is that his parents (and the other kids parents) are PROUD of their children. Proud that they had sex with a 16 year old girl who was so drunk she passed out.

I always thought that a GENTLEMAN didn't have sex with a girl who was to incapacitated to know what was going on? A GENTLEMAN would have seen that she got home safely, even if she said she WANTED to do these things. He would have recognized that she was in no position to be making such a decision and he would have kept his dick in his pants. I don't know how these boys parents could be so f**king proud of their pathetic, low-life sons. Even if they aren't rapists, their still dirt.
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tnlefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #43
60. Uh huh, and decent parents would have instilled this in these
boys from a young age, well before they were old enough to do something like this. Decent parents wouldn't have whisked the perps out of the country. I shudder to think what all I would come up with as an intervention for one of my male offspring. Counseling through the sheriff's dept. relating to abusing alcohol because it would be very clear to me that what I'd already done didn't sink in. About a year of sitting in on sessions with women who have been sexually assaulted, all of this to commence after managing to remove my foot after a well-placed kick in the ass.

Tickets out of the country...no way.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #43
61. 18 having sex with 16 is not "disgusting"
Fine, I didn't see the tape. Seems like a crime even without tape actually showing rape since she was underage, given alcohol and had sex with someone who was 18 at the time.

So she had sex with a person 2 years older than her. Seems pretty normal to me.
And teenagers often drink alcohol. It is just in this country with fucked up alcohol laws that it is verboten until you are 21. Take a look at Europe. Much saner attitude towards alcohol and sex and less problems because of it.
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spunky Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #61
68. If you read the rest of the post you'll see where I said
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 10:20 AM by spunky
Fine, I didn't see the tape. Seems like a crime even without tape actually showing rape since she was underage, given alcohol and had sex with someone who was 18 at the time.

But the thing that really, really, really disgusts me about this, is that his parents (and the other kids parents) are PROUD of their children. Proud that they had sex with a 16 year old girl who was so drunk she passed out.

I always thought that a GENTLEMAN didn't have sex with a girl who was to incapacitated to know what was going on? A GENTLEMAN would have seen that she got home safely, even if she said she WANTED to do these things. He would have recognized that she was in no position to be making such a decision and he would have kept his dick in his pants. I don't know how these boys parents could be so f**king proud of their pathetic, low-life sons. Even if they aren't rapists, their still dirt.


I was saying that I was disgusted with the parents, but prefacing it by saying that I see it as statutory rape, and yes, I think it is disgusting that ANY GUY OF ANY AGE would take advantage of a drunk girl.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
50. Sex Assault: Myths and Facts - From The Illinois Attorney General
(I think The Illinois Attorney General would be happy to have the entire list published anywhere anyone wants to publish it. I am not saying this necessarily applies to the person who was found not-guilty - but it sounds to me like there are people around who need to know that a woman/girl consenting to drink,etc. does NOT equal consenting to sex/rape)


http://www.ag.state.il.us/communities/somb/myths.html

Sex Offender Management Board:

Sex Assault: Myths and Facts


Myth #1: Victims provoke sexual assaults when they dress provocatively or act in a promiscuous manner.
Fact: Rape and sexual assault are crimes of violence and control that stem from a persons determination to exercise power over another. Neither provocative dress nor promiscuous behavior are invitations for unwanted sexual activity.
Forcing someone to engage in non-consensual sexual activity is sexual assault, regardless of the way that person dresses or acts.


Myth #2: If a person goes to someones room or house or goes to a bar, she assumes the risk of sexual assault. If something happens later, she cant claim that she was raped or sexually assaulted because she should have known not to go to those places.
Fact: This assumption of risk wrongfully places the responsibility of the offenders actions with the victim. Even if a person went voluntarily to someones residence or room and consented to engage in some sexual activity, it does not serve as a blanket consent for all sexual activity. If a person is unsure about whether the other person is comfortable with an elevated level of sexual activity, the person should stop and ask. When someone says No or Stop, that means STOP. Sexual activity forced upon another without consent is sexual assault.


Myth #3: Its not sexual assault if it happens after drinking or taking drugs.
Fact: Being under the influence of alcohol or drugs is not an invitation for non-consensual sexual activity. A person under the influence of drugs or alcohol does not cause others to assault her; others choose to take advantage of the situation and sexually assault her because she is in a vulnerable position. Many state laws hold that a person who is cognitively impaired due to the influence of drugs or alcohol is not able to consent to sexual activity. The act of an offender who deliberately uses alcohol as a means to subdue someone in order to engage in non-consensual sexual activity is also criminal.


Myth #4: Most sexual assaults are committed by strangers. Its not rape if the people involved knew each other.
Fact: Most sexual assaults and rapes are committed by someone the victim knows. Among victims aged 18 to 29, two-thirds had a prior relationship with the offender.1 During 2000, about six in ten rape or sexual assault victims stated the offender was an intimate, other relative, a friend or an acquaintance.2 A study of sexual victimization of college women showed that most victims knew the person who sexually victimized them. For both completed and attempted rapes, about 9 in 10 offenders were known to the victim.3 Most often, a boyfriend, ex-boyfriend, classmate, friend, acquaintance or co-worker sexually victimized the women.4
Sexual assault can be committed within any type of relationship, including in marriage, in dating relationships, and by friends, acquaintances or co-workers.
Sexual assault can occur in heterosexual or same-gender relationships. It does not matter whether there is a current or past relationship between the victim and offender; unwanted sexual activity is still sexual assault and is a serious crime.


Myth #5: Rape can be avoided if women avoid dark alleys or other dangerous places where strangers might be hiding or lurking.
Fact: Rape and sexual assault can occur at any time, in many places, to anyone.
According to a report based on FBI data, almost 70% of sexual assault reported to law enforcement occurred in the residence of the victim, the offender, or another individual.5 As pointed out above in Fact #4, many rapes are committed by people known to the victim. While prudent, avoiding dark alleys or dangerous places will not necessarily protect someone from being sexually assaulted.


Myth #6: A person who has really been sexually assaulted will be hysterical.
Fact: Victims of sexual violence exhibit a spectrum of responses to the assault, which can include: calm, hysteria, withdrawal, anger, apathy, denial and shock.
Being sexually assaulted is a very traumatic experience. Reactions to the assault and the length of time needed to process through the experience vary with each person. There is no right way to react to being sexually assaulted.
Assumptions about a way a victim should act may be detrimental to the victim because each victim copes with the trauma of the assault in different ways, which can also vary over time.


Myth #7: All sexual assault victims will report the crime immediately to the police. If they do not report it or delay in reporting it, then they must have changed their minds after it happened, wanted revenge or didnt want to look like they were sexually active.
Fact: There are many reasons why a sexual assault victim may not report the assault to the police. It is not easy to talk about being sexually assaulted. The experience of re-telling what happened may cause the person to relive the trauma. Other reasons for not immediately reporting the assault or not reporting it at all include fear of retaliation by the offender, fear of not being believed, fear of being blamed for the assault, fear of being revictimized if the case goes through the criminal justice system, belief that the offender will not be held accountable, wanting to forget the assault ever happened, not recognizing that what happened was sexual assault, shame, and/or shock. In fact, reporting a sexual assault incident to the police is the exception and not the norm. From 1993 to 1999, about 70% of rape and sexual assault crimes were not reported to the police.6 Because a person did not immediately report an assault or chooses not to report it at all does not mean that the assault did not happen.
Victims can report a sexual assault to criminal justice authorities at any time, whether it be immediately after the assault or within weeks, months or even years after the assault. Criminal justice authorities can move forward with a criminal case, so long as the incident is reported within the jurisdictions statute of limitations. Each state has different statutes of limitations that apply to the crimes of rape and sexual assault. Statutes of limitations provide for the time period in which criminal justice authorities can charge an individual with a crime for a particular incident. If you have any questions about your states statute of limitations, you can call your local police department, prosecutors office, local sexual assault victim services program or state sexual assault coalition.


Myth #8: Only young, pretty women are assaulted.
Fact: The belief that only young, pretty women are sexually assaulted stems from the myth that sexual assault is based on sex and physical attraction. Sexual assault is a crime of power and control and offenders often choose people whom they perceive as most vulnerable to attack or over whom they believe they can assert power. Sexual assault victims come from all walks of life. They can range in age from the very old to the very young. Many victims of sexual violence are under 12. Sixty-seven percent of all victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement agencies were juveniles (under the age of 18); 34% of all victims were under age 12. One of every seven victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement agencies were under age 6.7 Men and boys are sexually assaulted. Persons with disabilities are also sexually assaulted. Assumptions about the typical sexual assault victim may further isolate those victimized because they may feel they will not be believed if they do not share the characteristics of the stereotypical sexual assault victim.


Myth #9: Its only rape if the victim puts up a fight and resists.
Fact: Many states do not require a victim to resist in order to charge the offender with rape or sexual assault. In addition, there are many reasons why a victim of sexual assault would not fight or resist her attacker. She may feel that fighting or resisting will make her attacker angry, resulting in more severe injury. She may not fight or resist as a coping mechanism for dealing with the trauma of being sexually assaulted. Many law enforcement experts say that victims should trust their instincts and intuition and do what they think is most likely to keep them alive. Not fighting or resisting an attack does not equal consent. It may mean it was the best way she knew how to protect herself from further injury.


Myth #10: Someone can only be sexually assaulted if a weapon was involved.
Fact: In many cases of sexual assault, a weapon is not involved. The offender often uses physical strength, physical violence, intimidation, threats or a combination of these tactics to overpower the victim. As pointed out in Fact #4, most sexual assaults are perpetrated by someone known to the victim. An offender often uses the victims trust developed through their relationship to create an opportunity to commit the sexual assault. In addition, the offender may have intimate knowledge about the victims life, such as where she lives, where she works, where she goes to school, or information about her family and friends. This enhances the credibility of any threats made by the offender since he has the knowledge about her life to carry them out. Although the presence of a weapon while committing the assault may result in a higher penalty or criminal charge, the absence of a weapon does not mean that the offender cannot be held criminally responsible for a sexual assault.


Myth #11: Rape is mostly an inter-racial crime.
Fact: The vast majority of violent crimes, which include sexual assaults and rapes, are intra-racial, meaning the victim and the offender are of the same race.8 This is not true, however, for rapes and sexual assaults committed against Native women. American Indian victims reported that approximately 8 in 10 rapes or sexual assaults were perpetrated by whites.9 Native women also experience a higher rate of sexual assault victimization than any other race.10


If you or someone you know is a victim of sexual assault and would like information about help in your area, please call your state sexual assault coalitionor local sexual assault victim services program for referrals and information on available services.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. Thanks for posting this.
I can't believe the "she drank so she gave up her rights" line of thinking is being spread here of all places.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #52
59. It is sad to see so many clueless people.
I hope they get educated.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #52
84. No shit!
What the hell's happening to this party?!

:cry:
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hollywood926 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #84
122. Tell me about it, Redqueen!
It's almost like the Bushies have taken over this board, as well as our "Dem" politicians. Every day I read threads defending pedophiles and a guy who beat his pregnant wife to death and threw her in a bay and then went home to call the woman he'd been banging...now it's men who raped an unconscious woman and wrote cunt and bitch on her nude body and filmed it.

We should just focus on the few who aren't like that, I guess. You know you are....we love you! :loveya:
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #52
338. Believe it
DU is a VERY misogynist place for a so-called progressive discussion forum -- and it allows a lot of sexism and downright misogyny to go on right here.

I'm going to bookmark this thread because some of the remarks made by some of the men here are disgusting in the extreme and I definitely WANT to remember who and exactly what some of them said. (Actually, I've finally figured out one or two of them are really only boys themselves but my, oh my, they can talk big, can't they?)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #50
53. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. Well charges would have to be filed before the DA could get involved.
Not a valid comparison.

Further, I believe the guys weren't arguing that they were so drunk they didn't remember what happened. They were aware enough to set up a camera.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #57
65. The law that was quoted said "influence of alcohol"
It sasy nothing about remembering. So that is irrelevant,

It is very possible that the girl consented at the time and regretted it afterwards. Whether she lied about not remembering or genuinely does not remember is irrelevant to the question of consent at the time. In any case I think the possibility is enough to produce reasonable doubt.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #65
67. Oh so "She consented but she just doesn't remember now"
Is a valid defense for rape now??

The guys don't even say they are drunk if I remember correctly. I'll pull out the paper and see.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #67
74. No, "if she does not remember she could have consented"
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 10:25 AM by Baby Cthulhu 69
The boys do not have to prove that she consented as the burden of proof is on the prosecution. The DA has to prove that she did not consent. If she could have consented and the DA can't prove she didn't there is no case.

And if she does not remember than she, logically, does not remember that she did not consent either.

Your gut feeling is irrelevant, if you can prove the guilt beyond reasonable doubt, you must aquit.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #74
82. It's guilty beyond a REASONABLE doubt.
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 10:31 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
That doesn't include making excuses for the guys accused.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #82
97. Yes, REASONABLE doubt
If your prime witness does not remember not consenting to sex and the video does not show her saying "no" you have no proof, and certainly not beyond reasonable doubt.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #97
101. So her lying motionless while being gangraped isn't good evidence?
Oh whatever!

Any decent human being would see she was unconcscious and not continue to have sex with her.

The theory the defense puts forth is that she consented and then what...laid completely still for sex with four guys while they videotaped her to...set them up?
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #101
104. Have you seen the video?
I haven't. The "feministe" author hasn't.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #104
114. I'm just going by what was reported on the news here a few days ago.
And that was that the video apparently showed her lying almost completely motionless. Where they got that, I would assume would be from the guy that admitted posessing it, but I don't know.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #114
129. So hearsay of a hearsay
The jurors saw the video first hand. And they concluded "not guilty."
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #129
144. And courts have a long history of sticking up for women's rights...
Oh wait...

:eyes:
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #144
149. And two of them have not been tried because they FLED the country!
LMAO! But, yes, you're right, there is no such thing as discrimination against women in our society. Those stats on the US Dept of Justice site that show men commit nearly 90% of violent crimes and the outrageously high numbers of crimes committed against women must be fake.

The fundies are right, why look to the facts when we have the Bible?
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #114
187. This defendant does not have sex with her in the video.
Little details matter, don't they?
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #187
189. He does something to her. And he let the two rape her while he stood by.
Yes, they certainly do.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #65
71. Are you really defending
Males forcing sex on women who are unable to consent or wouldn't know what they were consenting to if they did?


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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #71
75. I am defending the presumtion of innosence
I am also saying that merely because sex occurs under influence of alcohol it does not make it a rape, necessarily.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #75
83. Well I have a lot more doubts about the men in this case.
-----------------------------------------------------
Myth #3: Its not sexual assault if it happens after drinking or taking drugs.

Fact: Being under the influence of alcohol or drugs is not an invitation for non-consensual sexual activity. A person under the influence of drugs or alcohol does not cause others to assault her; others choose to take advantage of the situation and sexually assault her because she is in a vulnerable position.Many state laws hold that a person who is cognitively impaired due to the influence of drugs or alcohol is not able to consent to sexual activity. The act of an offender who deliberately uses alcohol as a means to subdue someone in order to engage in non-consensual sexual activity is also criminal.

---------------------------------------------------

It doesn't sound to me like the men have a very good case.


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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #83
92. You might have a lot more doubts
But the fact is, they do not have to prove their innosence. A criminal case is not a symetric affair like a civil case.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #92
99. If what was posted
was verified in the video - that she was passed out and 4 men are raping her - I would have NO doubt.

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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #99
107. Agreed.
But apperantly the video does not show it.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. Who was the active one?
if the girl/woman is just lying there - she is not raping anyone.

A drunk male "could" be raped by a female - drunk or not.

Like I said - I don't know enough about this case to judge.

I DO know that MANY women/girls are raped in this way. (And I think it's VERY rare for the woman to be the one doing the overpowering - through drinks, drugs or otherwise).
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #53
64. Did she shove a bottle up the guys' bums? If so, then yeah she should be
charged for raping the guys.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #64
70. Again
If a person is under the influence of alcohol, this law states they are unable to consent to sex. Ergo he or she got raped. If both participants are under the influence of alcohol they bioth got raped. It just goes to show that this law is stupid.

As far as bottle up teh bum, this is not the only way. Since errections can be involuntary, a woman can have sex with a drunk man with or without his consent. But if you treat all sex under influence of alcohol as rape then if he drank he got raped. Regardless of if he did it willingly or not.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #70
80. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #80
88. Nope.
She was PASSED OUT. He wasn't. He raped HER. The law doesn't say you can't be a rapist while being drunk.

What proof do you have that he raped her? What proof do you have that she was passed out? Did you or the "feministe" writer see the video?


By your logic, had he been passed out and she sodomized him, she could have called 9-1-1 and charged him with rape.


No, that bears no resemblance to what I wrote.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #88
135. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #135
154. He is using the word, "feminista"
Your guess is as good as mine! LMAO!!!

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #154
163. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #163
167. Jesus Christ,
just look at the OP.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #163
171. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #154
166. I said "Feministe"
refering to the blog teh OP was qoting from. Because that was the name of the blog. What word should I have used?
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #135
159. Let's see.
I think abortion should be legal in most cases.
I voted for Kerry as a lesser of two evils.

So there.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #159
165. Please explain why you think it's ok to rape a drunk woman
did she deserve it?

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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #165
170. I never said it was ok to rape a drunk woman
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 11:14 AM by Baby Cthulhu 69
Why do you think it is ok to convict someone of rape without proof beyond reasonable doubt?
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #170
172. What's acceptable evidence then?
Remember most rapes aren't taped.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #170
185. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #185
220. I said "Feministe". It's a name of the fucking blog
that OP was quoting from. Jesus Christ on a pogo stick!
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #220
240. here's the Chicago Tribune article, which is actually more damning.

The 20-minute videotape was the centerpiece of the prosecution's case against Robbins. The jury saw the whole tape at the two-day trial and saw portions of it in closing arguments Wednesday. Jurors asked to see parts of it a third time in their deliberations.

The tape never has been made public, and only the jury was able to view it at the trial. Prosecutors said it showed Bezeri and Missbrenner having sex with the girl and several of the young men writing derogatory terms for females on her and performing other degrading acts.

Robbins is seen on the tape appearing to do something that prosecutors said was a sexual act, but defense attorney Robert Kuzas said it was unclear what actually happened.

Robbins said he had sex with the girl, but in a locked bedroom and not on tape.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0503170237...

So he is admitting to (although he doesn't have to, it's on video) to being in the room next to the other men while they were raping herm, and to writing on her body along with the other young men when they all got done raping her. He has a damn good lawyer, I have to give him credit for this.

One thing I can't understand about this culture is here is this drunk girl, and here are all these young men doing these sorry things to her while she's unable to consent, and yet they feel the need to write SLURS on HER when they get done. She is the sex, the guilt, the ugliness somehow???? Why do men hate sex, and themselves, so damn much?
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #240
256. You didn't read the whole article
Especially the part about jurors deciding that sexual activity in the video was consensual.

Why do men hate sex, and themselves, so damn much?

We don't.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #256
263. nope, you didn't read it correctly.
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 12:27 PM by jdj
'The jury of eight women and four men quickly left the courthouse and declined to comment, although one answered, "yes" when asked whether the tape was the key difference for the defense.'

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0503170237...

no where does it say they found the act consensual, it seems to me the article is saying that they couldn't not find him guilty of SEXUAL ASSAULT beyond a REASONABLE DOUBT because it wasn't clear from the video that what he did was a SEXUAL ACT. The jury doesn't have the authority to apply a charge other than the one he is charged with.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #263
270. There is a mopre detailed article floatring around
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 12:33 PM by Baby Cthulhu 69
Leila posted it too. I assumed it was the same one.
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #88
156. The proof is that they were writing obscene words on her naked body.
I just don't understand your 'logic', or actually, lack of it.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #156
179. Who wrote the words?
The boy who juist got acquitted? The guilt of each of them has to be proven individually. Even if she got raped does not mean that all four raped her.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #179
243. yes he is shown on video writing on her with the rest of the punks.
apparently the only part he was smart enough to avoid doing is penetrating her vagina with his penis while on video.

This guy will make a great Republican lawyer someday.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #243
250. Well, I think he's on his way. He just has to get into law school.
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hollywood926 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #70
86. Here, baby...
This is worth emphasizing again - the law says this:

Many state laws hold that a person who is cognitively impaired due to the influence of drugs or alcohol is not able to consent to sexual activity. The act of an offender who deliberately uses alcohol as a means to subdue someone in order to engage in non-consensual sexual activity is also criminal.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #86
89. Rubber paragraph
So bringing a bottle of wine to a date could be considered prelude to rape?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #89
95. Do you really think there's no difference between having a drink
and being stinking drunk?

Do you think you'd have trouble discerning whether your date's judgment was impaired due to overconsumption of alcohol?
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #95
98. I do think there is a difference
But law, as stated there, apperantly does not. That's why I said rubber paragraoph. And having impaired judgement does not necessarily mean she got raped either.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #98
105. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #105
109. That's an ad hominem
I will not even honor it with a response.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #109
116. Whether you realize it or not - that is how you sound
like you are defending rape.

What can be gotten away with and all that.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #109
190. What do they give you a debate handbook before you come over to DU?
so you can learn the terminology?
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #190
197. Basically calling me a rapist
is an ad hominem. Maybe you need that handbook.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #197
198. I was commenting on your use of the terminology
don't get your panties in a twist, sweetie.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #197
317. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #317
323. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #317
325. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #105
266. LOL.
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spunky Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #98
110. Well then, lets just legalize roofies, and make it easier for
everybody to get laid.

'Cause hey, if your passed out and don't know what's going on, what do you care who has sex with you.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #110
115. Thank you.
That's the slippery slope that arguments like BC's land us on.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #98
145. You are overgeneralizing the law regarding alcohol
And positing, male abuser type justifications.

Reminds me of the abusive husbands we had to deal with at Child Protective services who had raped and beaten their wives. Very sick individuals who had anger management, violence,and control issues, as well as a demented machismo male domination worldview.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #145
147. "My wife abused me verbally and made me hit her!"
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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #89
112. You are exaggerating the issue and you know it.
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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #53
91. no offense, but
:wtf:

I certainly hope this is sarcasm.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #50
69. excellent info bloom!
It doesn't matter if she was drunk or not, if she did not consent, it's rape. Furthermore, if an adult has sex with a minor, it IS statutory rape.

Those two boys fled the country because they knew they were in deep shit. Their fleeing is NOT a sign of their innocence.

The one who was found guilty of child porn, should also be charged with accessory to rape.

What a sick thing to do, gang bang a drunk 16 year old girl, tape it, and write on her body. One female and how many males? Sick. Yet another symptom of our male dominated sexist society.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
66. My God...
:cry:

What has to happen before society stops treating females this way?
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hollywood926 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #66
90. You can always tell men who have engaged in this behavior...
because they defend it until they turn blue.

When will they stop, Redqueen? I don't know. Probably not until after every woman on the planet has discovered other women. :-)

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #90
106. That really sickens me.
As someone who experienced 'date rape', I can't even begin to describe how much...
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #66
94. We should be happy we can vote
And that men can no longer legally beat and murder their wives and children. Isn't that enough progress?

Don't bother with educating yourself on the facts of the epidemic of violence against women and children. Facts are irrelevant. Anyone who pushes for progress and social justice is a neofemnazi, don't you realize this?

:eyes:
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
93. It doesn't matter how much she has had sex before, or how much she drank
If she had sex with others that very night or did a kegger while doing it...doesn't matter. If one guy has sex with her while she is passed out, he is a RAPIST.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #93
103. Problem is the PROOF
If she had sex with others that very night or did a kegger while doing it...doesn't matter.

Isn't sex (accoring to you) under the influence of alcohol automatically rape? I am confused now.


If one guy has sex with her while she is passed out, he is a RAPIST.


I would tend to agree with that but the problem is proof. Apperantly she was not passed out during that video.

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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #103
108. Apparently, she wasn't in any condition to consent to anything.
Why do you have a problem with that? Isn't it better to teach teen ages boys to WALK THE FUCK AWAY rather than take a chance that she might not want to have sex....

Why is this so difficult for you to understand?
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #108
113. The issue is not what condition you THINK she was, but what can be PROVEN
I was not arguing that what the guys did was right, and yes I would agree with you there, just that if you can't prove beyond reasonable doubt you have to let them go.
Two completely different questions.

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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #113
118. You are arguing what they did was right!
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 10:53 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
Here's what you said:

"If she consented she consented and it was not a rape"

Then you even said that if they were guilty she was also guilty of rape!!

"So, since the guys were under the influence of alcohol as well why isn't DA charging the girl with rape as well?

Or what about sex between two people. He had a few to drink, she is sober. Did she rape him now? Where is the DA in such cases?"
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #118
126. If she consented ...
than it wasn't a crime. It still was a lapse of judgement on both sides.


Then you even said that if they were guilty she was also guilty of rape!!


That was just to show the sillyness of alcohol-means-rape law.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #126
132. What's consent? Not waking up in time?
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #132
139. Depends on the facts of the case
Neither of us was there.

If she was truly passed out I agree with you. But that's a big IF right there. It's like saying that if Robert Blake killed his wife he is guilty. Well duh, but you first need to establish that.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #139
151. So how does one ever prove rape then?
DNA evidence can't even prove anything. According to you, the only way to prove it is if he tapes himself saying "I am now about to rape this woman".
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #151
157. Not so.
Any reasonable proof would do. Even that video, if it shows what you claim it shows.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #157
161. Well most rapes aren't videotaped. So what then?
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #139
160. She does not have to be entirely passed out. Read the myths again
and again.
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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #126
133. Well, let's be sure to have that silly law changed so that men
can feel free to get a woman tanked and take advantage of her.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #126
196. How about this scenario - a 16 year old boy passes out at a party
he is then gang banged by 4 adult males, they videotape it and write all over him. By your logic, he probably consented.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #196
278. But we all know in this case the men would be executed.
because men don't like penetration and anal stimulation at all, so therefore they could not possibly consent, ever, to something like this.

/sarcasm off/
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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #113
124. You, and others, are acting as if the jury got this one right.
I suggest to you that the fact that two of the boys fled the country rather than face the charges is an indication that something happened that wasn't quite legal.

Just because the jury didn't convict doesn't mean it wasn't rape.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #103
111. She wasn't moving...she was motionless...
What about that screams active participation to you?

And let me make it very very clear for you.

I never said any influence of alcohol was automotically rape. And anyway, I was not being serious. My point was that her "innocense" has nothing to do with whether or not she was raped.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #111
117. Again, how do you know?
Where is the proof?

And yes, "innosence" has nothing to do with it. I agree with that. But in this case, there was no proof.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #117
121. Again, people other than the jury saw the tape.
Including the guy that was arrested for posessing it. The news reported that she was motionless. Until I hear differently I've got to go with that.
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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #117
127. How do you know there was no proof?
I don't understand your logic. Are you seriously suggesting juries never make mistakes. Because if they don't, why the fuck do we have Higher Courts in this country? Damn - all that tax payer money could be saved since lower court juries are apparently never wrong.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #127
136. I thought there was "double jeopady" protection.
I.e. DA can't appeal to a higher court on a criminal matter anyway.

But yes, juries make mistakes and they are not perfect. But I think they should err on the side of caution before locking someone up for a long time.
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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #136
143. You get my point. Juries make mistakes. Every day.
In this case, it does not mean that this girl wasn't raped. BTW - I've never had consensual sex with anyone who then wrote on my stomach with a magic marker. That, in and of itself, is a pretty violent act.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #143
153. Yes-it amazes me that Baby Cthulhu 69 thinks this kind of behaviour
is acceptable. Raping a woman that's passed out from drinking and writing on her-I guess that this is some fraternity prank?
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #143
155. Yes, I get your point.
And I'd rather have them err on the side of acquittal then on side of conviction.

And anyway, sometimes a person can be guilty but acquitted without an "error" per se, just because there is not enough evidence.
What we definitely should not do is go to the "women don't lie about rape" fallacy and call for conviction of men just because there is an accusation. There still has to be due process.
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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #155
158. so you think she wrote on herself? Again, fleeing can be
seen as a sign of guilt - Two teens fled the country and I doubt it was because they had accumulated frequent flier miles that were about to expire.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #158
162. Guilt by association? (N/T)
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #162
169. I would say just plain guilt
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #169
173. You are not getting my point
Just because two people fled does not mean a third person, who just got acquitted, was guilty, even if the other two were. Now I see that he wasn't even in the video. So where exactly is proof there?
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #173
177. Apparently the video shows him doing something to her.
And him standing there and letting them rape her, even cheering them on, is a crime.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #177
201. Source?
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #201
205. The article right below! Here it is! They spat and wrote on her!
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 11:32 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #205
227. Interesting
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 11:56 AM by Baby Cthulhu 69
From the text:
Jurors were the only ones allowed to view the video besides the judge and lawyers. Spectators listened, but officials turned the television away. Two jurors said the tape exonerates Robbins. One woman agreed to talk at length if promised anonymity.

"I can't even believe the state put this on trial," said the 44-year-old South suburban woman. "She's a willing participant. If you had seen the tape, you'd know. That's what basically cleared him."

Other than a brief view of his back, Robbins is not seen on the video, and his attorney, Robert Kuzas, argued it's unclear if the teen is engaged in oral sex with the girl.


Yeah, very damning.

The girl is heard making sounds and talking on the first part while having sex with Bezeri

So that indicates that she was not passed out and because she did not resist or say "stop" at that point it is likely she consented.

She does say "stop", later:

"Whether drunk or not, she was coherent. She was moving around and able to realize what she was doing. At one point, she says 'stop' and he did. I felt sorry for this girl getting herself in a predicament like this, but I agree with what the defense attorney said, this was an insult, not an assault."


No smoking gun here, Leila.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #227
230. Yep, it certainly is damning.
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 11:53 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
Like you know...where one of those who admitted to spitting on her said the guy accused had been there only just before?



Prosecutors maintain Robbins had sex with the girl off tape after the second part after instructing the others to leave the bedroom. Forensic experts found evidence of his semen in the bedroom. Robbins said she consented, but the girl couldn't even identify hiin court.

Minutes after Robbins leaves the girl, prosecutors said, the third segment is shot when the teens, including two others who hadn't participated, take turns spitting and writing sexual slurs on the her unconscious girl's body. She doesn't even flinch.

Robbins isn't identified in the group. Prosecutors argued the girl must have been unconscious when Robbins had sex with her since it was minutes earlier, but the juror said it isn't certain when that third segment was taped.

One party goer who spit and wrote on the girl testified it was minutes later, but the juror said the group did not find him too credible.



Whatever. You want to defend rapists, go ahead. It's disgusting though.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #230
234. The video evidence, according to teh article, is much less damning
than you made it out to be. There was no way it was established beyond reasonable doubt that she was raped.

I think the acquittal was in order.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #234
237. OK, so it shows him leaving after doing something to her
Witnesses come in just after he told them to leave and proceed to write on and spit on her. His seman was found in the bedroom. She was already less-than-conscious when she was having sex with the guy who was BEFORE this guy.

Right...acquital. :eyes:
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #237
242. I think the legal term for that is
conjecture.

Again, he does not have to prove that he is innocent to be acquitted.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #242
248. You're making excuses for him that are beyond a REASONABLE doubt.
What are the odds, seriously, that she became lucid magically after the second rape, consented to have sex with him (only minutes after she was lifeless and just mumbling incoherently) and then passed out completely again, all within a matter of minutes?
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #248
252. You are accepting prosecution timeline as gospell truth
And exactly therein lies the conjecture.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #252
259. The whole event takes place in a matter of hours at MOST
Even ignoring the witnesses who testify it was only minutes, what are the odds that after the second rape she became perfectly lucid (after being blind drunk mind you) for a few hours, consented to have sex, went back to the EXACT room where she had been raped, laid down in the same spot, had sex with the guy and then passed out before he opened the door to leave and let those who wrote and spit on her in.
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spunky Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #227
232. You picked a convenient part of the article to quote
There was much worse stuff in there. Like where they have videotape of her UNCONCIOUS and being written on and spitted on. Did she consent to that?

And is writing on and spitting on an unconcious person the kind of thing people do after consentual sex, or is it something they do with a girl they view as nothing more than a toy?
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #232
236. Enough to cast reasonable doubt
There was much worse stuff in there. Like where they have videotape of her UNCONCIOUS and being written on and spitted on. Did she consent to that?

The charge was rape, not graffitti. The article clearly shows that the rape case was on very shaky legs, evidence-wise.


And is writing on and spitting on an unconcious person the kind of thing people do after consentual sex, or is it something they do with a girl they view as nothing more than a toy?


These are not mutually exclusive. Mind you, that is nothing I would have done myself, but it is not necessarily rape.
Another thing: if it was rape, do you think they would have made a video documenting it? Hardly.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #236
238. They're morons! They made a tape of them spitting and writing on her!
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spunky Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #236
246. Okay, there's just no point in continuing this with someone who says
The charge was rape, not graffitti. The article clearly shows that the rape case was on very shaky legs, evidence-wise.

Graffitti?!?!?! Graffitti?!!!!!! I would call writing derogatory phrases on the partially nude body of an unconcious person a lot of things: sexual assult, maybe a hate crime (maybe), plain old ordinary assult, but NONE of those things would be GRAFFITTI!

These are not mutually exclusive. Mind you, that is nothing I would have done myself, but it is not necessarily rape.
Another thing: if it was rape, do you think they would have made a video documenting it? Hardly.


Heh, you wouldn't think teenagers would videotape themselves vandalizing houses, but they do. You wouldn't think a bunch of military gaurding a prison would take photos of themselves abusing prisoners, but they DID! Just because it would be a stupid thing to do doesn't mean they didn't do it.

Hell, R. Kelly taping himself urinating on a minor was a dumb thing to do, but he did it, and he's an adult!
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #236
265. "if it was rape, do you think they would have made a video documenting it?
You've got to be kidding, right? How often do we hear on the news of some arrogant fool who decided to video their own crime?

Here's one case that I have bookmarked. You might remember it. It's the Calgary men who kicked, beat and urinated on the homeless man. Oh, and just for the memories they decided to videotape it.
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/12/31/calg...

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spunky Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #155
182. No, we shouldn't just assume that "women don't lie about rape"
but we should also not assume that any girl who goes to a party and gets drunk is consenting to have sex with any man who wants her. And that's the precedent this case seems to be setting, or at least what some what it so set:

(from the original post)
It is convenient that she doesnt remember anything, Kuzas told the jury. She initiated drinking games, was chugging vodka from a bottle, and went to a party at 2 a.m.

Criminal sexual assault is when it occurs against your will, he said. I also saw on a TV news segment that this attorney asked the young woman if she consented to going to the party and if she consented to getting drunk.


The defense attorney is arguing that she consented to sex by going to the party and by playing drinking games. That is a terrifying and dangerous precedent to set.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #182
199. excellent point!
That would be the same as saying, if a woman exited the mall into the parking lot and was grabbed and raped, it's her fault for being in the wrong place, at the wrong time. She consented to going there. It doesn't matter that she didn't consent.
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #103
152. You don't have to be motionless and silent to be impaired.
And yes, there was proof. Those little brats writing offensive slurs on her naked body is PROOF she was impaired and not able to consent.

Consent is ACTIVE. You have to show, by word and deed, that you want this to continue. If that isn't happening, BACK OFF. If you're a man, or a male brat, as these little pieces of shit are, you are in for a world of trouble.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #103
168. Yes, you are confused
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 11:14 AM by ultraist
The law does NOT say, anyone has who has sex under the influence is a rapist. Your overgeneralization does NOTHING to support your opinion.

Apparently, according to the video, she was drunk, and four boys had "sex" with her, wrote on her, taped her, while she layed their unparticipatory. Did she say yes to this? OBVIOUSLY the two boys that FLED THE COUNTRY don't think she did. And she claims she did NOT consent.

Is she a liar? Are most women that claim rape liars?

Get a fucking clue.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #168
174. "Women don't lie about rape" fallacy again
The boy acquitted of rape had sex with her in another room. He wasn't even in the video.
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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #174
204. And don't give me the "women aren't raped by people they know" fallacy.
Your defense of this person's actions is beginning to wear thin.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #174
213. "Women are usually lying about rape" = FUNDIE MYTH
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #174
214. According to the FBI, less than 2% of cases are false accusations
The same numbers as false accusations of any other crime.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #214
217. FACTS? Who needs facts when we have a fundie worldview?
:silly:


Excellent point, btw!
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Morose Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
130. Best movie I've ever seen was
12 Angry Men.

Sometimes what we THINK we know...is far different what we actually know.

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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #130
192. bully for you.
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 11:25 AM by JimmyJazz
And sometimes we know the truth without having 12 people tell us what that is. Oh and don't bother giving me the "innocent until proven guilty" speech - that only applies to the jurors, not the general public.
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hollywood926 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
175. SInce that article is "slanted," here's another..
from the MSM...

http://www.dailyherald.com/dupage/main_story.asp?intID=...

This is the bit that really explains the jury's decision. It certainly had nothing to do with common sense...

---------------------------------------------------------

The jury included a newspaper pressman, factory worker, security guard, social worker, phone company employee, two people who worked for law firms and a woman who just became a U.S. citizen. The majority of the eight women on the 12-member panel were in their late 40s or older.

And therein lies a major problem for the prosecution, said one trial consultant.

"Older women in a case like this are more likely to acquit because they hold the victim responsible for their own conduct," said Harvey Moore, president of Tampa-based Trial Practices Inc.

"They were raised in a different era when a girl was not supposed to be out late drinking at a party with boys. They've been socialized for years to avoid exactly that, and the victim here violated all these unwritten rules."

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #175
180. Oh, man....
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

12 angry men, indeed... these jurors were no noble bastions of reasonable thought... they weren't even FORCED into reasonable thought by ONE principled person.

:argh:
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #175
186. She doesn't move and they "manipulated" her legs...
nice. Real nice.
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spunky Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #175
208. I think the most daming part of the tape, according to that article
is this:

Minutes after Robbins leaves the girl, prosecutors said, the third segment is shot when the teens, including two others who hadn't participated, take turns spitting and writing sexual slurs on the her unconscious girl's body. She doesn't even flinch.

If she was half-naked at that point (the way she woke up) isn't this at the very least sexual assault? I mean, if she was DEFINATELY unconcious by this point, then she didn't consent to being written on and spitted on while partially nude. . .
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #208
209. Or left there to be at their mercy.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #208
219. I would think it fitting that certain DUers step in at this point
and FUCKING APOLOGIZE FOR KNEEJERKING IN DEFENSE OF FUCKING RAPISTS!

:argh:

:cry:
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #219
223. Me too. But that'll never happen. They've erased this from their
collective conscience and moved on...much like I'm sure the jury and the boys will...while I shudder to think of the hell this girl will deal with for years to come. :(
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
202. Isn't sex with an underage girl rape anymore? What the hell. Alcohol,
reputation aside, that in itself should have led to a conviction. I'm disgusted by this story and that people would defend the juries' decision. Plain as day. Too young.
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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #202
207. You have to read Baby Cthulhu 69's responses to that question
in order to get an answer to that question. Apparently not in his opinion - apparently she was plenty old enough and the real culprits in this matter are (in no particular order): the parents, the girl, the alcohol, the other boys.... I thought liberals were the ones who thought no one is accountable for their own actions - did I miss something?
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #207
211. This girl has paid the ultimate price for this already. I thought so too,
JJ. Shame on anyone who doesn't see this as the crime it was. :(
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #207
222. Pretty sure more than just one DUer was WAY THE HELL in the wrong here.
He was the only one with the nerve to keep arguing his case, though.
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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #222
226. As always, you are correct. Some of the posts were pretty disappointing
to read. I thought people were more enlightened, but I guess I was wrong.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #226
253. Heh...well certainly not always...
but thank you for your confidence.

Disappointing... that's putting it mildly.
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_TJ_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #222
304. This is one of the sickest stories I have ever read
I am so outraged by the behaviour of these scumbags
I am close to tears. I just can't believe anyone would
do this to an unconscious teenage girl.

The pathetic sh*tbags should be thrown in jail
and forgotten about IMO.







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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #304
308. Hi TJ,
Welcome to DU.

I'm so very sorry that so many DUers are apparently so willing to make excuses for this kind of situation.

I'm near tears as well... I know how you feel right now. :pals:
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LiberallyInclined Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #202
235. the age of consent varies from state to state
here's a site that lists them-

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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #235
258. It's 18 in most blue states
so she falls below that.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #258
260. It's 17 in IL
But the boy was 16 as well at the time, accoring to Daily Herald, so that is irrelevant.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #260
262. No, it says they are 20 now in 2005, so in 2002...they were 17 or 18
depending on their birthdays. She was 16.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #262
267. The article says she was 20 as well
So they say they are the same age. Either it happened earlier than you say, or she was older than 16 (and above AOC) or DH goofed.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #267
271. No, the article says she is now 19! The first line of the artcle says 16.
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #271
273. Huh?
After the verdict, the 20-year-old Naperville woman sobbed. The incident was so traumatizing, her lawyer said, she completed her high school education through home schooling and still receives counseling.

Something doesn't add up here.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #273
275. Right Here:
Their acquittal of one of the teens accused of raping a 16-year-old Naperville girl may seem shocking, but some jurors said Thursday the videotape of the sex acts made their verdict crystal clear.

The Naperville girl, now 19, testified she arrived at the party about 2:30 a.m. but can't recall anything except taking two gulps of vodka and vomiting. She did not know the boys.

I think the second one is a typo.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #275
279. 2 gulps? they had to have drugged her. n/t


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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #279
291. This just gets uglier and uglier.
However impossible that may seem...
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #260
264. But it's also irrelevant BECAUSE SHE WAS RAPED
it wouldn't matter if she was 16 or 60.
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #264
272. Some people seem to think rape is a myth created to punish men.
Women shouldn't put themselves in that position. Boys will be boys and all.

When will women learn that they can't consume too much alcohol and become incapacitated and not be gang raped by a bunch of guys just out to have some fun. The poor boys lives could be ruined by these allegations.

If someone doesn't see what's wrong with this picture I can't help them.

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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #272
276. Good post-obviously someone on this thread CAN'T see what's
wrong with this picture. :eyes:
:boring:
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Baby Cthulhu 69 Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #264
274. Allegedly raped.
After all, he was acquitted.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #264
290. I agree, of course. But in the very least they could have found these
scumbags guilty of this.
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LiberallyInclined Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #264
298. not according to the jury.
and they heard and saw ALL the evidence...you didn't.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #298
310. Juries have been known to be wrong. Remember OJ?
That's why we have federal judges.

:eyes:

Juries are not infallible.
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LiberallyInclined Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #310
314. what about O.J.?
in the United States of America, you are INNOCENT until convicted.

no matter haw much you'd like that to change.

ergo, she WASN'T raped.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #314
318. Did you watch the video? You give juries that much power?
That would mean all the juries Down South during the Jim Crow days were right. That means all the juries that put innocent men on death row were correct.

Don't you see the lapse in logic in that thinking?
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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #314
321. WTF are you saying? That OJ is innocent????? Wrong!
BTW - no one is found innocent - they are found "not guilty" - a HUGE difference.

I was raped. I never reported it and the person was never tried. Does that mean it didn't happen?

I'm sorry, but your argument is ridiculous.
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progmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #314
329. This is ludicrous argument
And seems like intentional flame-bait. Are you at all aware of what you're saying??

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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #314
331. We're waiting
*crickets*

:freak:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
277. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #277
282. yes, every six minutes is such a rarity.
damn all of us to hell for bothering with something so statistically minimal.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #282
301. But we only get rape frenzies when the jury acquits
With 100,000 men being subject to prison rape each year, it means men suffer rape at a similar rate.

And yet, all of the outrage we see is prison rape jokes.

Yes, even on DU.

There's also the phenomenon of woman-on-boy pedophilia. But the only such Pedo Frenzy I've seen in years was the Mary Kay LeTorneau/Vili Falauu case, while most woman-on-boy pedophilia involves women with boys under the age of 8 or 10.

There is plenty of outrage among men for the crime of rape. In a rape frenzy, all we hear is how evil men are. Not the perps alone -- but men in general. One word to the contrary, and we're suddenly perps ourselves.

Meanwhile, in the rush for personal virtue, nothing gets done to reduce the incidence of rape or sexual assault of any kind.

But we got angry. Our outrage was not denied. And oh, how good does that feel!

And don't think I didn't notice the lack of concern for the young woman at the middle of this orgy of sleaze. No one cares nearly as much for how she's doing as they do for making sure someone is punished.

So we have thousands of outraged people whose wrath has been provoked by a redacted, partially-reported incident involving a huge amount of booze, probably at least a dozen people guilty of some stupidity and/or outrage, an insufficiency of accurate reports, and several conflicting details within those reports. But people who aren't willing to join the lynch posse are somehow lacking in empathy?

The idea of justice involves a couple of things most people are unwilling to give up -- like the pleasure of finding the accused guilty in one's own mind, and the certainty that the accused really is guilty.

If more of a response is needed against sexual outrage, perhaps we should simply outlaw all sexual activity conducted without a marriage license. We don't allow untrained people to perform surgery, why should we allow the unmarried to do anything as fraught with Consequences as have sex?

--p!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #301
312. That's ridiculous.
You're making accusations no more grounded than those in the media, when they claim 'some people' do x.

I'm sure if there are woman/young boy pedo stories posted here, they will get just as much outrage, should any DUers attempt to minimize it.

And as for prison rape... I don't doubt people make jokes... it's still ignored far too much. However if a serious story is posted I don't doubt the majority of the comments will be outrage and any comments minimizing IT will result in a flame war in an attempt to reason with them.

Why are you trying to change the subject, anyway? If you care about those other issues... why don't you start threads about them? Why come on a thread about a girl whose alleged *ptui* rapist was acquitted and try to minimize it?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #277
288. self delete
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 12:59 PM by redqueen
what's the fucking point
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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #288
303. That's rich. I just typed a big old rant and deleted it without
posting it - you are right - "what's the fucking point?"

I'm really, really upset with this thread and the attitudes of some on it.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #303
311. I am more than upset. I am very very frightened for my innocent 15 year
old daughter. That at some point she's going to want to go to a party, and I won't be able to let her because of piggish viewpoints like those expressed here.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #311
324. I second that, MrsG... no parties.
What a world we make for our daughters...
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
284. Future Armed Forces of America
Robbins has been under house arrest since being charged and said he was going to celebrate his freedom by going out to a restaurant.

He hopes to join the Illinois National Guard, as he had planned to do before being charged, he said.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
315. There Are Some Fucked Up Responses In This Thread
Yes, the little shitstain got off, but that speaks much more to the sexist nature of our society and the internalized sexism of the jury, than some kind of homage to our "beyond a reasonable doubt" legal standard, IMO.

A 16-year-old girl in anywhere near the state described was in no condition to consent. Not even close.

DTH
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #315
322. You're not kidding.
It's beyond depressing. It's downright fucking tragic.
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #315
327. Whatever happened to people doing the right thing?
Regardless of whether or not a jury decided it was rape, this young woman was in no condition to maturely decide she wanted to have sex with several older boys (since they were the same age as some of the young men and women serving in Iraq, I use that term loosely).

I remember a time when one of those boys might have thought enough about her, about what is right and what is wrong, to stand up to the others and just take her home.

To those defending that it was not rape, answer me this - was it right?
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #315
328. And the other two had FLED the country
Likely, to avoid a conviction.

I agree, it says a lot about our society. It's shameful.
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #315
330. A-fucking-men!
:thumbsup:
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #315
335. what an unbelievable thread to read through
:wow:
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #315
337. Thanks Dennis..I am sure we both agree the law should afford rights to
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 02:17 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
the accused. After going back and reading the articles (several), there was FAR MORE jury nullification in this case than OJ. No doubt preemptory challenges won this case.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
333. First the legal, then the personal
Legally, our constitution affords rights to the accused as it should. I am not familiar enough with the facts of the case to comment beyond that, but I still believe it is better to let 100 guilty people walk than to punish an innocent person.

As for the men justifying several guys manipulating a 16 year old drunken young woman's legs while they take turns fucking her and pretending it MAY have been consensual...you all deserve to be painfully ass fucked the next time you have a few drinks with moaning dubbed in on the tape and have a jury watch it and claim you enjoyed it.

Those of you justifying any of this are far more barbaric than the perps.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #333
334. Bravo!
:thumbsup:
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #333
336. You don't mince words.
I like that. And you are correct. :)
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
341. Locking
This topic has turned into a flamefest.
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