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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 06:50 PM
Original message
Right Wing Funding Terri Schiavo Lies And Propoganda
Lies Terri Schiavo's parents told me
The Terri Schiavo case has transfixed the right wing media while attracting comparatively little attention from the left. This is discrepancy is understandable. Once you know the facts, there's very little to argue about. The case is literally a no brainer.

The Schiavo case poses no intricate medical, ethical, or legal dilemmas. Abstract Appeal's comprehensive legal chronology shows just how straightforward this case should have been. Michael Schiavo is Terri's legal guardian, a court has found repeatedly that Terri wouldn't want a feeding tube, and Michael asked the doctors to take the tube out. That's really all there is to it.

The Terri Schiavo appeal is a vicious and lavishly-funded propaganda campaign. Terri's parents and their allies are using pseudoscience and character assassination to destroy Michael Schiavo. The right wing is eating it up.

If progressives don't counter these blatant misrepresentations now, the Terri Schiavo myths will be used against us for years to come.

http://www.pandagon.net/mtarchives/004689.html

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Scairp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. Poppycock
Edited on Wed Mar-16-05 06:55 PM by Scairp
He wants her dead for his own nefarious reasons. He needs to be replaced as her guardian. She left no Living Will, and only his word, somewhat late in the game, is being used as an excuse to kill her off. It turns my stomach that Terri's plight is being seen as another right wing conspiracy to winnow down our right to self-determination. TERRI isn't asking for anything, and the only person who has ever said she wanted to die is the one fighting to kill her. It's legal murder, period.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. exactly
Edited on Wed Mar-16-05 07:00 PM by Zuni
He is not Terry's husband really. He is living with another woman and they have a child and another one the way.

Her parents and her family want her, and they think that she will benefit from some sort of treatment.

For the courts to order her to be killed would be absolutely, without a doubt, one of the most barbaric rulings in American history and will cause the family immense pain and suffering.

What would you do if they were starving your invalid daughter to death by court order?

I don't care if George Bush, Jerry Falwell, and Ronald reagan's ghost are running the effort to save her life----in this case they are right.
To kill Terry would violate the 8th Amendment of the Constitution, it would be cruel and unusual punishment.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
215. I agree also. Her "husband" can walk away and give the responsibility
over to her parents. And yes, it is only his word that she would have wanted to die if left in this state. I don't trust him as far as I can throw him. I have seen videos of her, and there is still some light there.
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DCDemo Donating Member (847 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. I am curious as to what you think his own nefarious reasons are
He has been offerred 10 million dollars to give her over to her parents' care, and he hasn't. She is missing a large portion of her higher brain - it's been replaced by spinal fluid. Her brain is physcially incapable of higher brain function, a finding that has been reached over and over and over again.

Is it even remotely possible, in your mind, that he grieves and loves his wife and wants to do what is best for her? I mean unless he feels that putting her through all this is fun, having his name ridiculed, getting death threats, etc. is a fun thing to do, then the only real motive I can think of is money, and he has repeatedly turned that down.

If you think that perhaps he did something cruel to her that resulted in her state, then he's got nothing to worry about if he turns her over to her parents - her brain is missing massive structural features necessary for higher thought, communication, lanugauge use, etc. In other words, even if he did something bad, she could never tell.

I am curious as to why the medical authorities who examine THE FULL evidence continuously claim that she is in a permanent vegetative state without any hope of recovery? My grandfather had ALS and spent 6+ years bedridden without the ability to really move or communicate, and yet it was clear from his reactions, etc. that he was still conscious and alive, mentally. Scans of his brain showed full function, and that it was all there.

I'm really just trying to say - look at the full evidence and don't let emotions and suspicions cloud your judgement.

Just like a car won't move under it's own power if the battery is missing, Terry Schiavo cannot be a person without the necessary hardware - the upper brain.

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Scairp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Oh I see
The value of a breathing human being is based on how well their brain is functioning? Sorry, but that sounds just a little too much like eugenics to me. Been reading up on your Nuremberg Laws? The Nazis didn't like feebles either, had them all euthanized. Is that what you advocate for the brain damaged of the world?
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. You don't seem to understand
Her soul is gone and all that is left is a shell. A small part of her brain that controls a few body functions survives. You are trying to make it out as though she was mentally retarded and still had function in the part of her brain that controls thoughts and dreams and love. She does not. I would urge you to research exactly how doctors understand her very limited function.
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WillowTree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Really? Her soul is "gone"?
When, specifically, did that happen? What conclusive criteria are used to determine that the soul is gone and when the leaving takes place?

To most people's minds, the soul and brain function are two entirely different things and that's a big part of the problem here. Because no one can really know the answers to those questions.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. You can blurry the lines any way you want but the fact is
The part of her brain that holds things like love, emotions, thoughts etc. is dead. Animals have survived without heads for years because a very small part of the brain that controls body functions survived. Would you say Mike the Headless Chicken from Grand Junction's soul was intact? He lived for two years without a head. If you don't believe me just do a search on it.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #18
27. she is still responsive
and her family wants her alive. Her husband, in my book, has forfitted his right to be guardian because he has another family, with kids of his own.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. But she's not responsive
Some automatic functions respond to stimulation like bright lights.

But she's not responsive to anything.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. she responds to jokes in one part of the film
her dad tells her a little joke and she laughs at it

I think to take away their daughter by court order is monstrous. Her husband should no longer be considered guardian because he has another family now and never visits terry
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Again, the tape is heavily edited and the medical findings are
that she's non responsive.

How do you reconcile your support of her parents with their own admission that they'd never remove life support EVEN IF THEY KNEW It was what she requested?

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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. what medical findings?
I have seen the opposite with my own eyes. I don't care if the tape was edited because there are moments where she actually seems to try to communicate. That is all I needed to see.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Well there you have it - you admit you don't care if the tape is a scam
You said you read the facts of the case.

Did you miss the multiple medical reports, including by physicians appointed by the court?

Did you miss the fact that almost her entire cerebral cortex is GONE?
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #41
47. It doesn't matter
there is still enough of her to communicate

an edited tape is not a faked one. They just edited out the boring parts to the parts that were relevant.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #47
51. No, they edited out pieces that show she's non responsive
And left in bits of her body being stimulated by lights to appear as if she's interactive.

But you've admitted you don't care about that.
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #47
52. No there's not


This is a CAT scan of Terri Schiavo's brain. The black stuff is spinal fluid. It's what used to be Terri. There's nothing there to communicate with anymore.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #52
57. so you want to kill her?
You want her parents to have to sit by while she is starved to death by court order?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. Her parents should respect her choices
Her expressed opinion about life support, and her choice of legal guardian.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #59
73. well, maybe Michael wants her dead because he already spent the money for
care he won in the court trial. He has spent 400,000$ of the money won for Terri's support on his laywer.

WHAT LITTLE Terri Schiavo has left in this life, is being cruelly stripped away. Not only has a judge ordered her to die slowly by dehydration via having her tube-supplied food and water removed, but now, her (estranged) husband and legal guardian Michael Schiavo has completely isolated her from her family. Ever since mysterious "puncture wounds" were supposedly detected on Terri's arm, he has refused to allow Bob and Mary Schindler, Terri's parents, to visit her.

For those who may not recall the controversy, Terri is the profoundly cognitively disabled woman who is the subject of a bitter right-to-live case in Clearwater, Florida. Michael remains in dictatorial charge of her care, even though he long ago abandoned his marriage by living with another woman and siring two children by her. He wants Terri dead (he says that is what she would want), while her parents only want to care for her properly for the rest of their lives.

Michael's behavior toward Terri has been utterly despicable for the last decade. After she collapsed in 1990, he sued for medical malpractice on her behalf. During the trial, he presented himself to the jury as a dedicated and loving husband--even though he had been romancing other women since shortly after the time of Terri's collapse and brain injury. He told the jury he would care for Terri for the rest of her life, which an expert testified would be a normal life span, and that as part of this loving devotion, he would provide
her with regular medical tests and appropriate rehabilitation with the money the jury awarded.

Terri received about $750,000 in early 1993, and Michael about $300,000 for loss of her companionship. As soon as Terri's money was safely in the bank, Michael put her two cats to sleep. He then melted down her wedding and engagement rings to make a ring for himself. Medical records indicate that Terri went for years without having her teeth cleaned, as an apparent consequence of which, she recently had five teeth extracted.

And, he wanted his wife dead. Within a year of the verdict, he refused to allow doctors to treat her with antibiotics to treat a serious infection, claiming that Terri would not want to live in her disabled condition--a point he somehow forgot to mention to the malpractice jury. Not coincidentally, had she died, he would have inherited her $700,000. Terri's parents sued to mandate care, and their relationship with Michael was forever poisoned.

Thereafter, medical records indicate, Terri had none of the medical testing Michael told the malpractice jury he would provide her, and apparently she received no rehabilitation. Indeed, nurses who cared for her in the mid-1990s filed sworn affidavits claiming that Michael repeatedly refused doctor recommendations that Terri be provided therapy.

As bad as Michael has been, in many ways, the performance of Judge George W. Greer of the Sixth Judicial Circuit, the jurist who oversees Terri's case, has been even worse. Over the years Greer has repeatedly allowed Michael to shirk his legal mandate as guardian to file annual prospective "guardianship plans," specifying his proposal for providing for Terri's medical and social needs for the coming year.




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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #73
78. Wow, now you're quoting Wesley Smith of the Discovery Institute
The same guy opposed to assisted suicided.

And the same group that blames Hitler on Darwin.

Good job!
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #78
83. I had no idea who he was
I just found that article, I had no idea who it came from. It does make sense about the Schiavo case. this is one of the few instances I find myself in agreement with the American taliban
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #83
85. Another fact you missed. He's opposed to stem cell research, assisted
suicide, and this.

He's opposed to most forms of self determination, and is willing to smear Michael Schiavo while he does it.

Too bad you bought into it.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #85
140. I am pro-stem cell reasearch
and I am pro-assisted suicide, as long as the person signs and notarizes his consent to die in a painless, peaceful matter if he is terminally ill.

I am opposed to starving a woman to death because her "husband" wants it that way.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #140
148. Well you sure fell for the assholes wthat are putting an end to all of tha
hook
line
and sinker
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #148
156. no, I just happen to agree with him one on issue
They want to execute an innocent person against the wishes of the family, without power of atty in writing, in a method of killing considered cruel and unusual punishment.

It would be better if they dug Terri a shallow grave and just shot her in the back of the head. That would be more humane.

Ted bundy was lucky compared to what Florida might do to Terri, and he killed scores of women in the most brutal manner.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #156
158. No, they want to end life support under the direction of the LEGAL
guardian.

Her parents have no right to guardianship.

sorry, there is no legal basis to oppose what they are doing.

She's dead, Jim. She has no brain.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #158
167. I do not consider Michael to be her husband anymore
considering he lives with a wife in all but name and has 2 kids with her and never visits Terri

The parents should be made the guardians and end this charade of Terri's marriage
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #167
169. What you consider doesn't matter. Under the law, he is the legal guardian
Edited on Thu Mar-17-05 11:24 AM by Walt Starr
Your opinion in the matter means nothing.

And she's already dead. She has no brain. Address the facts of the case, not some touchy feely emotional response you have.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #169
173. In my opinion, she is not brain dead
and I have seen doctors on talking heads say that a woman who makes responses like hers at all could not be brain dead
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GiovanniC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #173
177. Oh, Well If It's YOUR OPINION That She's Not Brain Dead
Then let's just stop the damn presses and keep that little empty shell alive for as long as possible against her own wishes. Maybe everyone who ever finds themselves in a situation like this should look you up and consult you for your personal opinion on whether or not their right-to-die wishes should be honored.

By the way, I didn't catch where you got your medical degree. Where was that again?

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #173
178. Because the Reichwing Media doesn't want you to hear it
Edited on Thu Mar-17-05 11:39 AM by Walt Starr
Read the testimony. She's DEAD. Look at the MRI scans. SHE HAS NO CEREBRAL CORTEX. Her only nervous functionality is via the cerebellum which is completely autonomic and has no relation to higher brain function.. The cerebrum has been completely replaced by spinal fluid. THERE IS NO BRAIN IN HER SKULL!
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #57
72. She's already dead
She died fifteen years ago. What's left is nothing but an insensate meatsack that keeps breathing and moaning and pooping and not much else. Now if it were up to Terri's parents and they wanted to keep her in that position and she wasn't on record as having objected, then I would have no problem with it. But it's not up to her parents. They have no legal standing in this, and haven't since the day she got married. It's a tragedy all around, and has been for fifteen years.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #57
185. She is already dead
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #34
43. Her parents admit they'd defy her wishes - how do you rationalize that?
How do you reconcile your support of her parents with their own admission that they'd never remove life support EVEN IF THEY KNEW It was what she requested?
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #43
49. I don't care
because I don't see any solid evidence that she ever made those wished to begin with
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. And you want people who admit they would defy her wishes
to be her guardian?

Why are you insistent upon infantalizing an adult? Why don't you care about her wishes?
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #53
60. why are you so keen on executiong the innocent?
I am anti-death penalty. I am against murderers being put to death for heinous crimes.
In that case, I am also against the government killing an invalid because her husband wants her to die.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #60
63. I'm keen on right of the individual to make their own choices
As I've explained already.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #63
74. But Michael Sciavo won 1 million to take care of terri
within a year of the verdict he was already trying to have her killed. He never mentioned she wanted to die in the malpractice trial. If she did want to die, why did michael win 1,000,000 for her care? Now that there is only 50,000 left, how was it spent.

It seems Michale has spent at least $400,000 on his laywer trying to kill the wife he won all the money to take care of.
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #74
76. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to care for someone 24/7?
Michael Schiavo tried therapy for years for Terri. The therapy didn't work, and Terri's brain continued to deteriorate. Finally, he realized that she was gone and there was no hope of bringing her back. I don't think you should fault the man for not giving up right away, after all, the parents haven't given up yet and no one is faulting them.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:26 AM
Original message
her trust fund was spent mostly by Michael
MYTH: Terri's Medical Trust fund has been used to care for her.
FACT: The following expenditures have been paid directly from Terri's Medical Trust fund, with the approval of Judge George Greer:
Summary of expenses paid from Terris 1.2 Million Dollar medical trust fund (jury awarded 1992)
NOTE: In his November 1993 Petition Schiavo alleges the 1993 guardianship asset balance as $761,507.50

Atty Gwyneth Stanley
Atty Deborah Bushnell
Atty Steve Nilson
Atty Pacarek
Atty Richard Pearse (GAL)
Atty George Felos
$10,668.05
$65,607.00
$7,404.95
$1,500.00
$4,511.95
$397,249.99

Other

1st Union/South Trust Bank
$55,459.85

Michael Schiavo
$10,929.95

Total $545,852.34


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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
81. Her trust fund is administered by South Trust
Not Judge Greer and not Michael Schiavo.

Come on, Zuni, if these people will fake a video tape, do you think they would blanche at posting a few lies on their website?
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #81
84. They did not fake a video tape
they edited hours of film so they had the best clips to give to the media
They have had doctors on the news who were shocked by the segments shown---Dr. Baden, of HBO's autoposy, a forensic specialist said that perhaps there is more going on than Michael Schiavo's doctors claim. many other doctors who have examined her say that she is not brain dead and is not a vegetable.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #84
86. If you remove the video that doesn't support your claims it's a fake
Just like if you test a drug on 1,000 people and 2 get better so you claim you've invented a cure.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #86
89. you edit out the boring parts
to show the important parts.

Would you sit through hours of tape just to see the parts you need to see. The fact that not much goes on in the boring parts does not take away from what goes on in the parts that are shown
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #89
93. "Boring parts" = parts where she's non-responsive
In other words, they took out the parts that show she's non-responsive, i.e., most of the several hours of video tape they took.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #89
109. You remind me of the joke about the dog who can talk.
"Rover, what goes on top of a house?"

"Ruff!"

"Good boy! See, he can talk!"
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #84
91. Are you kidding?
"They did not fake a video tape they edited hours of film so they had the best clips to give to the media"

That is excatly faking a video tape. They present this carefully edited tape as though it's proof that Terri Schiavo is responsive, but in fact, the tape is so heavily edited that it's not proof of anything except that the "life at any cost" people are mis-representing her condition at BEST.

Regarding the doctors who've viewed these fake tapes: my doc won't even renew my prescriptions without examining me himself, let alone make any other judgements about my medical condition. I question the ethics of these doctors.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #91
94. The media is not going to show 6 hours of tape
they took the most important parts to show the media.

That is not faking a tape.

Faking would be dressing up another girl as Terri and having her act more responsive.
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #94
96. Yeah, the parts that show she's responsive
Then they claim, based on this heavily-edited tape, that Terri Schiavo is responsive. "You can see for yourself by viewing this tape!"

It's the same logic the Bushies used in the run-up to the war- present edited evidence to the media with the excuse that the other stuff doesn't matter and is unimportant, and watch people fall in line behind you when they don't have that boring old "truth" stuff to contend with.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #96
118. There is no point in showing boring parts to the media
the fact that there are parts with her activity shows she is not a vegetable, no matter how much boring tape there is.
The fact that she communicates in the clips, no matter how long it took to get there is evidence enough for me.
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #118
131. Yeah, who needs the truth anyway?
Why bother with reality when you have this nice little movie that bolsters your opinion?

"The fact that Sadaam said he didn't have WMD when we know darn well he does means nothing to me. Colin Powell has pictures of mobile weapons labs!"
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #131
160. But she still communicated
I don't expect much from Terri with the degree of brain damage. But the fact that she is responsive at times shows that there is functioning inside, just at minimal levels
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GiovanniC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #94
98. If She's So Goddamned Responsive, Why Does It Take Six Hours
To get her to fucking blink?

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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #98
116. she does more than blink
She moves her head, follows the people around the room with her eyes, recognizes certain people, laughs, even attempts to talk.

If you are so certain, why don't you go down to Florida and execute her?
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #116
129. Well, how do you know?
Seriously, the rest of those six hours that you haven't seen, what do you think happens in them? Do you think she's moving her head, following people around the room with her eyes, moaning (not an attempt to talk) and laughing? Don't you think they would show those things?

The fact is, Terri has some involuntary reflexes, like anyone in a PVS. What's shown on the tape are the efforts of the "pro-living-meat-sack" crowd to time their actions to her reflexes. What's not shown to the media and the general public (but was shown to the courts) are all the failed attempts. A good 5+ hours of failed attempts.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #129
141. she is severely brain damaged
I am not surprised that often she doesn;t communicate.
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #141
144. She's not brain damaged
She doesn't have any brain left. She's a veggie.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #144
150. she has more than that
a veggie would have no responses at all---I think she has more than that

Besides, all these people who claim to have compassion seem to have no problem forcing this woman to starve to death. For all the hee-haw against the death penalty, they don't seem to care about cruel and unusual punishment being inflicted on a woman who has done nothing at all.

It would be more humane to put Terri Schiavo in the electric chair at Starke penitentiary.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #150
164. You're Wrong -- PVS patients DO have responses
INVOLUNTARY ONES. You and Randall Terry can NOT rewrite medical facts. She has no higher brain functions. She cannot even feel pain or pleasure anymore, let alone think. SHE HAS NO HIGHER BRAIN LEFT. FACT.

I think we should be able to give Terri a massive shot of something and send her body off to join her essence. But, all of the RWers have made that compassion illegally.
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #150
171. They're not responses but are, in fact, reflexes
Have you been around many people in a PVS? Terri's actions on even the edited, bastardized, ficitonalized tape her parents have put out is pretty typical behavior.

If you're concerned with being cruel, perhaps you should work to make euthanasia legal in the state of Florida. It's unfortunate that the very same people working for her parents are the folks who've ensured that this is the only way Terri's wishes can be fulfilled.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #171
179. I meant reflexes...
I said that in my post, should have had it in my headline. Thanks!
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deek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #144
191. not brain damaged?
hmmmmm.........I thought apoxia damaged the brain.

Silly me.
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #191
199. Her brain is liquid
That is to damage what Baghdad is to urban renewal
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deek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #141
187. now see here........
You can not use rational reasoning on this subject!!!

Shame on you.
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GiovanniC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #116
132. My Point Stands
If she does all of these things, and is just SOOOO responsive, laughing, blinking, recognizing people, reciting soliloquies, solving calculus equations, et cetera... then why would they need to edit six hours of tape?

I mean, if I wanted to prove that my wife was responsive, I would be able to do that in a nice, neat, 30 to 60 second video. I could get her to laugh, blink, recognize me, all that. I wouldn't have to leave the camera on her for 6 hours to get her to do so.

I also used to work with severely handicapped children. Same thing... you can video their responsiveness without having to edit.

You're being purposely disingenuous, and you're arguing from a position of willful ignorance... not a great footing to have here.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #132
142. But the fact that she does respond
shows there is more going on in there than you care to acknowledge.

Seriously, if you want her dead, why not go down to Florida and take her out to the everglades and shoot her and leave her for the gators.

At least it would save her and the family the ordeal of forced starvation.
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #142
149. She's not responding
The tape has been carefully edited to make it appear as though she is responding. But those who have seen the unedited version attest that she is not. And the fact that it is so heavily edited shows that less is going on there than the family would like.

As far as I'm concerned, her family's sick and twisted use of their daughter as some sort of symbol negates whatever emotional pull they had.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #142
151. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
OilemFirchen Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #94
112. For the record
Back in the good ole days, you'd give the six hours of tape to the media, and let them edit it.

Of course, critical thinking was all the rage then too. Likewise skepticism, logic and nuance.

Thank gawd we're past all that, eh?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #94
161. But, the courts DID watch unedited video
And the independent doctors did. Geez.

If you're against taking better off of medically and legally defined life support, just say it. You are 100% entitled to your opinion. But, as much as you can have your own opinion, you can't have your own facts.

The facts are: Terri Schiavo's cerebral cortex is GONE. The video is highly edited (watch the firs minute or so, when he dad "jump starts" her reflexes with his HUGE light, watch the parts where Terri does NOT respond...). Michael Schiavo did not spend her money, he has no control over her money, the COURT decided she should be taken off the feeding tube, her initial condition was caused by bulimia, not Michael's abuse. God, READ THE FACTS! Not RW websites. ALL of the court papers and factual material are out there.

People, this is NOT a test case. There IS no court case. Karen Ann Quinlan and Nancy Cruzan were the legal test cases. This is political and religious showmanship. I wouldn't treat my pet the way these people are treating Terri.

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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #84
124. Zuni--why not read what the court had to say about the hours of tapes?
Or would facts and conclusions of law interfere with your way of thinking?

www.abstractappeal.com
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #124
145. Are you pro-death penalty?
I am not. Ted Bundy got a better deal than the Schiavos. At least he was fried in seconds. And Ted Bundy killed, raped and tortured scores of women, including an 11 yr old girl

This girl is going to be slowly, painfully starved to death.

They might as well take her to a shallow grave and shoot her for all the compassion that i am seeing here.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #145
166. Nope, not painfully
NO CEREBRAL CORTEX LEFT.
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deek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #84
186. precisely eom
.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #76
157. Approx. $6,000 a day
Per my mother, the rehab nurse.
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deek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #157
188. hmmmmm
I thought it was more like $80K to $100K/year.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #74
79. I'd want my spouse to do exactly the same thing
Especially if my parents (who would never do such a thing) were dragging us through courts to stop my spouse from carrying out my wishes.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #79
95. But you are not Terri
nor can you speak for her family
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #95
97. Once you get married
Your family no longer speaks for you. Your spouse becomes your next of kin. It's part of the reason folks are working on getting marriage equality in this country.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #97
101. That spouse has another family now
He has a common law wife, they have one kid together and another on the way.
It is only on paper that he is Terri's husband. He should not be considered the husband, but Terri cannot divorce him. Their marriage is legal fiction.
He has another family.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #101
103. The "other family" came long after the decision
And he's still acting on Terri's behalf.
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #101
107. Florida has no common law marriage
It's only on paper, and faked video tape, that his wife, Mrs. Terri Schiavo, is still alive. Of course Terri can't divorce him, she can't brush her teeth, drive a car, or even swallow on her own. She's gone. Should Michael have died, too?
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #107
110. Terri is very much alive
and an edited tape is not faked. They did not use special effects and they did not use actors.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #110
111. No, they just edited out all the proof that she's non responsive
Let's say TERRI as many times as it takes fer her to happen to look over when we do it - and if it takes 6 hours of doing it until she happens to look this way, it will prove she's responsive.

<sigh>
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #111
120. they showed important parts
the fact that she responds and communicates at all prove you wrong, even if there are three hours of very little activity before it,period.

The fact that she responds to stimuli proves that she is not a vegetable.

And to starve her to death. We wouldn't have killed Ted Bundy by starvation. He was luckier than Schiavo---at least he got the chair. Schiavo is going to be starved to death and slowly rot away, her parents blocked from helping her by the government.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #120
123. The IMPORTANT parts would include her being non responsive too
If the effort is to assess her real state rather than to support a conclusion.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #123
134. But the fact she responded at all is the important part
it shows that she is not a vegetable. The non responsiveness is what is expected. The fact that she responds to certain stimulus and attempts to communicate at all is what is important.
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #134
136. But she doesn't respond
The tapes have been edited to show her appearing to respond. The tapes that the courts have seen have not been edited.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #136
139. I have seen clips from those same tapes
and she certainly does respond to certain stimuli and even laughs when her father is teasing her.

Most of the time she is unaware of her surroundings, but at other times she does respond
This shows she is not as bad as Michael Schiavo, George Felos and the pro-euthansaia lobby want us to believe.
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #139
143. That's just it
You're seeing edited versions of what was shown to the courts, complete with "the boring parts" cut out and with voice-overs added. The 49 times that Terri's dad teases her and she does nothing more than drool have been cut out because they're "boring", the 50th time he teases her and she happens to laugh (by chance, not by response) is shown and presented as a conscious response. She has random movements, including tears, moans, jerks and blinks. The tape as presented on the website and to the media strings these random movements together in a manner that makes it appear that she is responding.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #143
146. She deserves to die now
Now I feel much better about starving her to death, about making her parents suffer through a week or more of knowing their daughter is suffering from dehydration and starvation and is wasting away.

Serial killers who strangle girls and throw their bodies in the woods are more compassionate than someone who wants to starve an invalid.
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #146
153. Deserves got nothing to do with it
Terri's dead, she's just not gone yet.

Her parents suffering is nothing compared to the suffering of Terri's poor husband, Michael. It also pales in comparision to the monumental lack of respect they have shown their daughter's wishes.

Serial killers who strangle girls and throw their bodies in the woods are more compassionate than someone who wants to keep a human being in a state of living death to make a political point.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #139
163. And you missed the hours in which there is no response at all
Even a stopped clock is right twice each day. Problem is you're looking at those two coincidences rather than the whole picture.
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deek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #139
189. I agree n/t
.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #110
184. They used selective parts of the video that would "prove" their point
An edited tape can be faked just be leaving parts out that don't support their cause.

It is no different than a football game where player A hits player B and the referee doesn't see it happen but when player B hits player A there is a penalty against player B because the referee saw THAT penalty.


ONLY a replay of everything will show what really happened.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #101
168. Nope, not his common law wife n/t
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #74
196. The only reason he had to spend $400,000
on attorneys is because her parents have challenged his decision to let her go.

And since she suffered irreversible, permanent brain damage, and he knew she didn't want to be kept alive, yes, he was appealing to the doctors to let her go peacefully within a year.
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PunkPop Donating Member (847 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #60
138. Uhh
Nobody is "killing" her. She is being KEPT alive through extensive medical intervention. Your rhetoric is inflammatory and belies the weakness of your argument.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #34
119. Why don't you read the rulings of the court on those tapes?
www.abstracappeal.com

Greer saw the unedited tapes, not just a few minutes, and ruled on them. Why don't you read the actual court documents?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #27
192. So you are saying he should have
remained faithful to his wife, who is a vegetable?
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Undercover Owl Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #192
197. Hell yeah. He shoulda
kept on givin' his wife good lovin'


:evilgrin:
How inappropriate would that be?!
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #18
65. Fine. Here's Mike the Headless chickens website.
Even the farmer who tried to decapitate Mike decided to let him live...

http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org/story.html
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SheepyMcSheepster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #65
108. ahh, mike the headless wonder chicken.
possibly the most famous chicken ever?
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #12
137. Her SOUL is gone?
I've said in the past that I understand the Schindler's pov, but I've held myself back from really discussing my opinion on this subject. But, how the heck can anyone know where her SOUL is? She may be brain-dead. But, the soul is a religious concept (one that I believe in, strongly), and none of us can know whether her soul is gone or not.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #137
205. If you can't love, if you can't hope, if you cant dream your soul
is gone regardless of weather you believe in an afterlife or not. The essence of who she is is gone. She is gone with a few nerves firring in one small part of her brain. I won't attempt to figure out if her soul is still hanging around in her body but when your C-Cortex is filled with fluid and not functioning then you are long gone. You can split hairs as much as you want but someone who can't love and dream is no longer in that body.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
216. And who can say if her soul is gone? Has a pschic medium been
in contact with her departed soul? The soul has no connection to physcial brain function. At least not in my beliefs.
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. To be fair,
Terri doesn't really HAVE a functioning brain anymore. 90% of it has been replaced with spinal fluid. And no one is saying Terri Schiavo lacks "value". The only people who talk of human beings in monetary terms are the "life at any cost" thugs. Finally, Terri isn't "feeble", nor is she brain damaged. Terri is a vegetable. Comparing her to people who are brain damaged is like comparing Detroit to Baghdad on the basis that they're both war zones- it's unfair to people who really are brain damaged and trivializes Terri's condition.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
28. she is not a complete vegetable
she still responds on a primitive level and in those videos she is seen laughing at teasing, and seems to have some awarness of her surroundings.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. The video you refer to was highly edited to fake responses
That's why it holds no water.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. But it still happens
no matter what was edited out, there are moments where she is responsive.
I have concluded they have no right to kill Terri Schiavo. It will be a monstrous day for the US when the courts execute an innocent invalid just because the "husband" wants it. And to kill by starvation, even George Bush never executed murderers in Texas by starvation.

I am against the death penalty for rapists and murderers, and I am also against the death penalty for being brain damaged.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. No, SHE is not responsive
Her body responds to certain stimulus automatically - SHE is not responding to anything.

And the courts have permitted the removal of life support based on their findings that this was HER wish - not his.

Get the facts straight, please.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. you need to get your facts straight
Many witnesses have seen her respond---including me, through the videos.

Why do you want to kill this girl so bad? Why not let her family take care of her. Every single one of them are opposed and believe Terri should be allowed to live.

Imagine if you had a daughter with severe brain damage, would you let the court decide she was not worth living?
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #42
46. You're no more a witness to Terri Schiavo's responsiveness...
... then you are a witness to space travel for having watched a few episodes of Star Trek. They're both science fiction.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #46
50. no
Terry's video had no special effects
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #50
61. Sure it does
There's even special lighting used to illicit a reflexive response. The only difference between the Schiavo videos and Star Trek is the use of non-union labor in production and the presence of William Shatner.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #42
48. Sorry but you have presented no facts, just your intuition based on fraud
You say you read the facts so please present some - your feelings based on a fraudulent video are not material.

I don't want to kill her at all. I want her wishes respected. She voiced her opinion, and she chose someone to act as her representative in the event of her incapacitation: her husband.

If her wish was to live on life support I'd support that too.

If my adult daughter was in this situation (which is not simply "brain damage") I'd want to respect her wishes. That's something Terri's parents have already said they'd defy.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #48
54. How is the video a fraud?
It still shows certain things, no matter how much you want to explain it away. It is not a Speilberg film. Yes, it is edited, but hours and hours don't make good clips to show the media.

You have no proof she ever voiced this opinion.

I still say the court has no right to kill her by starvation against her parent's wished. Her husband, now that he has another 'wife' and children with her, is nothing but husband in name only.

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #54
58. There are witnesses to her voicing this opinion
But since you claim to be familiar with the facts you should know this.

And her parents wishes take NO precedence over hers.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #58
64. what witnesses?
All I know is Michael Schiavo said that, after he won $1 mil in a trial by promising to take care of Terri for the rest of her natural life, that he then said that she wanted to die and spent $400,000 of HER care money on his atty in order to kill Terri.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. I thought you said you knew the facts on both sides
Review the court case. There were other witnesses to her statements.

See? I told you to get your facts straight.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #66
99. I have read enough to know
that his claims won't hold up in a regular court of law. And he never mentioned them when he was winning $1.2 million to take care of the 'vegetable' for the 'rest of her natural life', the same one who wanted to die if she was in this condition. After he won the money, it took less than a year for him to start trying to kill her. He hooked up with another lady, had one son with her and now has another on the way. He is no longer Terri's husband except in name only and he has no moral right to make decisions for her.

To let him use the government as an insturment to murder his first wife is literally barbarism, killing of the inconvienant weak.

I am against the death penalty for murderers and INVALIDS
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #99
102. Schiavo's claims have held up in several courts of law
Every single court that has examined this case, and there have been several, has found for Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo. Even the SCOTUS.

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #99
104. Then you forgot they were ALREADY upheld in a court of law
Boy do you have the facts wrong, wrong, wrong.

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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #104
114. The fact that the Judge did allow them
to be upheld is a major, major error in my book. I misstated earlier when i said it wouldn't hold up when I meant it shouldn't hold up. There are no papers, nothing notarized, nothing confirmed. Just the testimony of a man who wants the court to kill his invalid wife.

But you are such a smart ass, who thinks he knows everything. But yet You do not even know the difference between pulling the plug on a patient on life support in a coma who cannot breathe or have heartbeats on their own, and the long, painful disgusting process of slowly starving to death.

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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #114
122. Several judges upheld them
Every judge is wrong, right Zuni? Everyone who's seen the entire, unedited, unenhanced videotape of Terri has judged her to be in a PVS, but all those people must have been blinded by the boredom, right?

Come on, Zuni.

BTW, life support for coma patients involves breathing and feeding and may involve heart-beat regulation but does not involve forcing the heart to beat on a constant basis. The hearts of coma patients beat on their own.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #114
128. Why do you ignore the fact that there were other witnesses?
You claim to know the facts of the case, but you don't know there are other witnesses, you don't know who administers Terri's trust and you quote biased anti choice writers without even knowing it.

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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #128
213. Other witnesses related to the husband who wants her dead.

How do you know they're not biased and lying to help him?
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GodHelpUsAll2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #114
207.  I do know the difference
I watched it happen. I agreed with my mother and her siblings when they made the decicion to discontinue the fluids and feeding tube and helped my aunt pull the tubes out of my Grandmother. Then I sat and watched her for days as she dehydrated to the point that her kidneys stopped functioning. Then she died. Peacefully. There was no pain, no moaning, no nothing. Just a quiet peaceful death. Oh, and by the way, this was 10 days, did you get that? 10 days of waiting for some sort of peace to come to my Grandmother. And when it came, I can not begin to tell you the enormous amout of relief I felt knowing that my Grandmother was finally in a better place and not being kept alive with no "Life" at all. My advise is, until you have "been there done that" don't preach to everyone how inhumane it is. Especially when I for one know for fact it is not as gruesome as you would like everyone to think. Especially to someone who is not functioning in the first place.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #99
113. Would you oppose ME choosing to not have a feeding tube if I'm
ever in PVS like Terri?

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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #113
115. She is not a vegetable
several doctors have said that she has some capacity. She is not brain dead.

To say so is an outright lie and is rotten to the core.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #115
121. Her diagnosis is Persistent (or permanent) Vegetative State
Even the opposition doesn't dispute that.

And thanks for not answering my question.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #115
125. Again, would you oppose MY decision to have life support removed
in the event I'm ever in PVS like Terri?
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #125
147. no, if you put it in writing and it is confirmed
I am not against assisted suicide for terminally ill patients.

There is no confirmation that Terri did this, nothing in writing, etc
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #147
159. Except there are witnesses who testified that she said so
And as is the casewith many young people she didn't have written instruction.

But she did express her wishes.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #159
214. Witnesses related to the husband who wants her dead.

How reliable is their word? And isn't it odd that she never mentioned her thoughts about such an important topic to anyone else, like someone related to her or a friend of hers?
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GiovanniC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #147
181. A Great Thing About All That Is
That all you have to do is tell your next of kin what your wishes are, and that is legally sufficient. Sure, having it in writing sure does clear up any confusion, and it certainly prevents guilt or other emotions from getting in the way, but the bottom line is that if I tell my wife that I don't want to be lying in a vegetative state like Terri Schiavo, she can see to it that my wishes are carried out even if I never have the presence of mind to actually write it down.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #147
200. Her next of kin's word
Edited on Thu Mar-17-05 06:35 PM by Pithlet
That is what she has. That is confirmtion enough in the law's eyes, or was until the right to life crowd butted into all this.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #115
174. She isn't brain dead -- she's PVS
Read about the FACTS. the medical facts.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #99
133. Did you read the actual court documents? The rulings on
the evidence? Did you actually read what the court had to say?
www.abstractappeal.com

Or did you confine your quest for knowledge to a website that offers a prayer card with Ms. Schiavo's picture on it?
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #54
202. Heres how you make a video showing Terri is somehow functioning
Heres how you make a video showing Terri is somehow functioning even with the most important part of her brain GONE. You go in and talk to the person as if they COULD respond, then when the persons INVOLUNTARY motor responses match your actions by shear coincidence, you edit that part of the tape and show it as proof that she is somehow responding voluntarily.

Want to see how it works, lets try it..

So, Zuni, what do you think of Condelezza Rice?
Most of the time she is unaware of her surroundings, but at other times she does respond.

How about Cheney and Rumsfield?
Serial killers who strangle girls and throw their bodies in the woods

I was told you voted for Bush!
you need to get your facts straight

You voted for Nadar?
To say so is an outright lie and is rotten to the core.

I think the first lady told me that..
she does communicate at a primitive level I have seen her react to stimuli in the videos. She clearly has sensory perception.


Gee, every word there IS yours. All I did was edit out the boring parts. In other words I picked and chose from your responses which were in no way responses to my actions. that's what the parents did, the went in and waited until Terri was "laughing" then told her a joke. it's really pretty sick.


Look, its simple. The part of her brain that controls thought, speech, emotions, pleasure, paint, etc, etc, isnt just damaged, it is GONE. It no longer exists. It can not be brought back. The part of her brain that is left still allows her to breath and react to lights, etc, is still there. So she moves her head, smiles, drools, moves her lips, etc, but there is as much conscious thought there as there is in a robot toy. She is gone, every independent doctor that looked at her has said so, every court that looked at this has agreed with the husband. Terri is gone. Stop letting her parents treat her like a meat puppet.

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steve2470 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #42
201. I hate to sound mercernary, but "taking care" of someone takes $$
Lots of $$. My mother has Alzheimer's Disease and it takes a lot of HER money to maintain her right now. If it weren't for HER money, my brother and I would have to either take care of her or put her in a public facility. I'm sure, in a medical facility, that her cost of care far outstrips that of my mother. Who pays for this ? WE do, the taxpayers of Florida and perhaps of the nation. And WHAT are we paying for ? We are paying for an essentially brain-dead woman to be kept technically alive. I feel bad for her parents, but geez Louise, they need to MOVE ON and grieve for her and get on with their lives. I can hear the next argument: that the parents and their supporters would pay for her care. OK, good intention. But, once that money runs out (and it probably would), it would go back to the taxpayers once again. Again, I hate to sound mercernary, but I would much rather spend tax money on the LIVING like children and families. Terri is already DEAD. Just let her body pass away, as her brain has. If my son was in a similar condition, I would allow him to die and grieve and cry, but then it would be OVER.
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #36
45. No it doesn't
If you say "Terri, look at the light" fifty times, and on the 49th time, her eyes twitch, and you edit out the other times nothing happened, that doesn't mean she's responsive. She has reflexive and unconscious movements. Videotaping those and adding a voice-over to make it look like she's responding to commands is not responsive.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #36
172. No, she isn't
The first 1-2 minutes shows her dad jump starting her reflexes with a huge ass light. Without that light, she would just be there on the bed. The light triggers her involuntary reflexes. It is NO different than if someone shocked a corpse and made it move via the electrical impulses. Terri's body is alive, but her brain is gone.
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deek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
190. death penalty for being brain damaged
You're correct. She is responsive, albeit not "on cue". Does that negate her interactions?

Not at all.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
67. I'm officially invoking Godwin's Law on this post.
Edited on Thu Mar-17-05 09:11 AM by yibbehobba
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. And the MD's that examined Terry did so only by viewing a picture
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
206. This needs stressed
She was examined by physicians appointed by the court who said she was a vegetable.

I wouldn't give any MD the time of day who makes a diagnosis by looking at a picture or viewing a tape.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Actualy it's not just his word - there were other witnesses
And he IS her next of kin.

What's the point of having next of kin if not for their judgement?

What "nefarious reasons" in particular do you accuse him of?
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
117. If you actually read the court papers, Michael was replaced
as her guardian. Terri had a guardian ad-litem, Jay Wolfson, who sided with the court's rulings that her feeding tube should be pulled.

Also, Michael did not ask the court to pull the tube, he asked the court to determine what is in Terri's best interests.

Why don't you read the actual court documents? Or would facts cloud the issue?

www.abstractappeal.com
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
170. Sorry but that is total horseshit..
She has been brain dead for YEARS and it is her parents that are in denial....

This has NOTHING to do with the person involved, and EVERYTHING to do with advancing a radical right-wing agenda...
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. I am with her family on this and the RW
I think she is not as bad as Michael tries to say. She is not on life support. All she has is a feeding tube.

Essentially, you want a court to order them to starve an innocent woman to death. She will fell pain, a number of medical experts concur. She is by no means brain dead, just severly brain damaged. She can even communicate on a very primitive level.

To kill this woman would be monstrous. Michael Schiavo is with another woman and they 1 kid together and another on the way. He is married to Terry in name only. In my opinion her folks are her guardians.

To kill an invalid with severe brain damge just because the husband thinks she might have made some comments at one time is beyond the realm of credibility to me.

For a court to order an innocent invalid to be starved and dehydrated to death is nothing short of barbarism.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. The feeding tube, both medically and legally, is life support
And she is not communicating on ANY level.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
33. she does communicate at a primitive level
has some awareness of her surroundings and will feel pain if starved.

A feeding tube is not the same as life support---she can breathe on her own, her heart beats on her own.

Many, many people have relatives on feeding tubes because of certain conditions. Should we kill all those unfortunates too?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. No, SHE does not communicate at ANY level - not even by blinking
She's been examined many times by specialists - she is non responsive.

No matter what a tape edited to make her appear responsive looks like.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. where are these 'experts'?
That was not what it looked like on an edited tape. She moved her eyes around the room, laughed at a joke and tried to speak.
That happened.

Other experts have testified to the opposite of what you say---that she still has some upper brain fuction.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #44
55. The edited tape, again, edits out her NON responsiveness
And which experts claim she has "upper brain function"?
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #55
68. these 17 signed a petition for further tests
For Immediate Release
March 5, 2005 - 3.30pm ET (GMT-5)

Attorneys for Bob and Mary Schindler have filed 17 affidavits in support of their motion asking Judge Greer to let medical evaluations be performed on Terri in light of recent advances in medical technologies.
The affidavits are from various experts in the medical field. They are urging that Terri be evaluated based on the fact that new evaluation and therapeutic technologies can significantly impact brain damaged and disabled persons. Many of them have stated that there is strong likelihood that Terri is in a minimally conscious state.


More affidavits are expected to be filed next week in support of the Schindler's motion.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Affidavit of Dr. Ralph Ankenman, MD
Affidavit of Dr. Pamela Hyikn, SLP

Affidavit of Dr. Beatrice Engstrand, MD
Affidavit of Dr. Jill Joyce, Phd

Affidavit of Dr. Alyse Eytan, MD
Affidavit of Dr. Philip Kennedy, MD, Phd

Affidavit of Dr. Harry Sawyer Goldsmith, MD
Affidavit of Dr. Kyle Lakas, MS, CCC, SLP

Affidavit of Dr. Jacob Green, MD
Affidavit of Dr. Richard Neubauer, MD, PA

Affidavit of Dr. Carolyn Heron, MD
Affidavit of Dr. Ricardo Senno, MD, MS, FAAPMR

Affidavit of Dr. David Hopper, PhD
Affidavit of Dr. Stanley Terman, MD, Phd

Affidavit of Dr. Lawrence Huntoon, MD
Affidavit of Dr. J. Michael Uszler, MD

Affidavit of Dr. Richard Weidman, MD

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. You can always find someone to clamor for more tests
But the fact is Michael Schiavo had more than adequate data to satisfy any legal burden.

By your rationale no one could ever take any action if there was anyone who ever requested another test.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #70
75. check this out,
MYTH: Many doctors have said that there is no hope for her.
FACT: Dr. Victor Gambone testified that he visits Terri 3 times a year. His visits last for approximately 10 minutes. He also testified, after viewing the court videotapes at Terris recent trial, that he was surprised to see Terris level of awareness. This doctor is part of a team hand-picked by her husband, Michael Schiavo, shortly before he filed to have Terris feeding removed. Contrary to Schiavos team, 14 independent medical professionals (6 of them neurologists) have given either statements or testimony that Terri is NOT in a Persistent Vegetative State. Additionally, there has never been any medical dispute of Terris ability to swallow. Even with this compelling evidence, Terris husband, Michael Schiavo, has denied any form of therapy for her for over 10 years.

Dr. Melvin Greer, appointed by Schiavo, testified that a doctor need not examine a patient to know the appropriate medical treatment. He spent approximately 45 minutes with Terri. Dr. Peter Bambakidis, appointed by Judge Greer, spent approximately 30 minutes with Terri. Dr. Ronald Cranford, also appointed by Schiavo and who has publicly labeled himself Dr. Death, spent less than 45 minutes examining and interacting with Terri.

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #75
80. Again, testimony based on a fraudulent tape
Funny how different the opinions are when physiicians actually examine the real person.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #75
126. Why don't you read what the court ruled on Dr. Gambone's testimony?
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #33
100. The tape is crap
It's a few snippits of hours and hours of footage. Terri has no coscious responses, and activity cannot be reliably duplicated.

This isn't surprising when you consider what her brain looks like.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. The amount of misinformation in your post is scary.
Where do you get your news? Fox? Newsmax? Please take the time to get the facts.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
26. I have read the facts from both sides
and I am convinced that starving her to death would be wrong and barbaric
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Which "facts" support your findings?
Please be specific.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. well
she reacts to stimuli---I have seen her react to stimuli in the videos. She clearly has sensory perception.
I do not think she is brain dead. She is severly brain damaged, but I would not say she is brain dead because she still has some frail hold on her surroundings. This is patently obvious if you see the tapes.

I also saw Dr. Baden, the forensics specialist from HBO's Autopsy on the news and he said that there would be no doubt in his mind she would suffer if starved.

It is barbaric and savage to starve this brain damaged woman.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. No one said she's brain dead.
I don't know why you're clinging to heavily edited videos that were rigged to make you think she's responsive when she's not.

Do you know almost her entire cerebral cortex is GONE?
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #37
56. So that makes her worthy of a barbaric death?
lets just kill all the people with severe brain damage. They might get in the was of a SO's attempts to hook up with another family.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #56
62. No more barbaric than any removal of any life support
per the wishes of the individual.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #62
69. no, usually they are in a coma
and cannot breathe or have their heart beat on their own.
My father had to pull the plug on my grandmother---she was on a respirator and in a deep coma
Terri is not like that
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. Your father suffocated his own mother?
Barbaric!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #71
77. Deleted message
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #77
82. And Terri is on life support
She's being kept alive by a machine. And she will never come out of PVS.

Why is that different than your grandmother being suffocated?
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #82
87. she is not in coma
she can live without artifical means. A feeding tube is not a life support system. A person who is crippled might need a feeding tube but is not nessecarily on life support.

My grandmother was terminally ill, in a coma and not likely to recover. She was only being kept alive by life support. Terri is able to live without life support, but is fed through a tube, like a cripple or some one with other severe problems.

FACT: Dr. Victor Gambone testified that he visits Terri 3 times a year. His visits last for approximately 10 minutes. He also testified, after viewing the court videotapes at Terris recent trial, that he was surprised to see Terris level of awareness. This doctor is part of a team hand-picked by her husband, Michael Schiavo, shortly before he filed to have Terris feeding removed. Contrary to Schiavos team, 14 independent medical professionals (6 of them neurologists) have given either statements or testimony that Terri is NOT in a Persistent Vegetative State. Additionally, there has never been any medical dispute of Terris ability to swallow. Even with this compelling evidence, Terris husband, Michael Schiavo, has denied any form of therapy for her for over 10 years.

Dr. Melvin Greer, appointed by Schiavo, testified that a doctor need not examine a patient to know the appropriate medical treatment. He spent approximately 45 minutes with Terri. Dr. Peter Bambakidis, appointed by Judge Greer, spent approximately 30 minutes with Terri. Dr. Ronald Cranford, also appointed by Schiavo and who has publicly labeled himself Dr. Death, spent less than 45 minutes examining and interacting with Terri.

MYTH: This is just a family battle over money.

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. The feeding tube, both medically and legally, is life support
And Terri is being kept alive by life support.

She can't eat on her own. She wouldn't even KNOW to eat on her own.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #88
90. She is severely brain damaged
I don't see where the court gets the right to starve her, though. It is unbelievable to me that they can starve someone to death.

If someone tries to commit suicide, aren't they taken to the hospital and revived?

Or does the hospital just starve them in accordance with their death wish?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #90
105. Why do you think starving is worse than being suffocated?
The feeding tube is life support just as the respirator is.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #105
127. a p[erson in a coma
on a respirator dies within minutes and is in a coma, they do not have any idea. That is life support. A person on life support has no function without it.
A feeding tube is used in anumber of cases, and is technically life support, but it is not the same as a respirator.
A person starved to death will waste away painfully and her family would have to be miserable as they know the daughter is going through prolonged agony and misery.


In the history of the judicial system, I have never heard of an invalid being forced into starvation by her husbands wished and with the consent of the government.

If you really want her dead, you can take her out to the everglades and cap her in the back of the head and feed her corpse to the alligators.
That would be more humane than what they are doing now.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #127
176. Err... you are VERY mistaken
Many people in comas are aware of what's going on around them on some level.

And, a feeding tube is LEGALLY AND MEDICALLY considered LIFE SUPPORT IN CASES OF pvs.

I wish I lived in your world, where I could make up facts and think they are true. Lostinva, you suddenly have ten million bucks and look like Ashley Judd. Oh, and Bush's SS plan sounds great!
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #87
175. Is this "information" from
the terrisfight website? If so, it would be like saying the holocaust didn't happen because you read David Irving's website.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #62
92. you mean starving and dehydrating a concious person
Edited on Thu Mar-17-05 09:49 AM by Zuni
is no different than pulling a person in a coma off a respirator and will die in seconds?

It may take Terry two weeks to starve to death. How would you feel knowing your daughter was being starved by the government?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #92
106. So your issue is with how long it takes to die?
Perhaps you should clarify.

And if my adut daughter were in this circumstance and she requested no life support, I'd fight to have her wishes respected.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #106
152. Just a quick note...
I actually support her parents wishes, as well. But, I've stated in other posts that I just don't understand why, if they're determined to let her die, they don't just give her an overdose of morphine. It's much quicker, kinder, and painfree.

What's the difference? I don't like the idea of any person, even a woman whose entire cerebral cortex is missing, being starved and dehydrated to death. Even if she can feel little or no pain, it seems like a long and torturous death to me.

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #152
180. Why not a morphine overdose?
Because it's illegal.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #106
155. I am not against assisted suicide
or stem cell reasearch, etc.

What I am against is the court ordering a woman to be starved to death, a cruel and barbaric way to die. Some doctors believe she will feel intense pain. I saw Michael Baden, the doctor from the HBO Autopsy series (real life MD going over cases) saying he has no doubt she will suffer intensly.
I also have a problem with Michael Schiavo being the guardian. He has essentially married another woman and has fathered two kids with her. He should not, at least in my opinion, have any right to Terri anymore. Since he has re-married in all but name, he should relinquish custody of Terri.
Terri's family wants her alive, Terri's friends want her alive. Why can't Michale Schiavo just drop this and marry his new wife?
Why is he so intent on killing her.

Also, possible abuse that might have contributed to Terri's situation cannot be ruled out completely, no matter how much you think the life lobby has smeared Schiavo. Dr. Baden, one of the premier forensic anthropologists in the nation does not think bulimia could have caused this degree of brain damage.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #26
130. Did you read the actual court documents at www.abstractappeal.com ?
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #130
211. Um, can't you tell? I don't think 'facts' are going to make a difference
Edited on Fri Mar-18-05 04:12 AM by djmaddox1
to this one. On the other hand, I thank you for the link. I hadn't really heard much @ this (other than tv - not much credence there) & the court docs at your link disprove most of the hysteria I'm seeing here. I'm particularly disturbed to see the husband & his actions disparaged by the constant referrals to his personal life. After years of - to quote one of the judges in this case - providing excellent & loving care for Terri's needs & comforts, the best he be bashed w/is that he dares to offend some else's idea of a 'moral' lifestyle! The money crap that's tossed at his feet is also a bunch of bullshit. The numbers awarded in the malpractice suit grow w/each post, it seems. $750,000 is not an enormous sum of cash when the expenses involved in this poor woman's care over a period of so many years are added up. An emotional reaction to the legal decision to remove the feeding tube does NOT justify the kinds of attacks that are being levied against the man, imo. Most spouses probably would have caved years ago under these kinds of attacks, I venture that Terri was very aware of the kind of man she chose to marry - & appears to have chosen well. Even though he's entitled to continue living his life, he has chosen to not abandon Terri, as well. That shows some grit - not the morally bankrupt, money grubber I see him being painted as. Terri should be allowed to leave the shell, not pulled like some prize by fundies w/a political axe to grind.

And before I'm asked:
Yes, I've lost a loved one - recently, in home hospice care.

Yes, I have daughters that I love dearly. I would never allowed outsiders to play w/them as a human pawn for their own political gain.
I would love them enough to follow their wishes, not sully their memories by letting them be held up for public spectacle.

on edit: decided it's better to call bullshit ... bullshit!
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. The last hour of my Father's life
He was dying of congestive heart failure. I was with him about an hour before he died.

He started moving around, moving his head. I started to talk to him and he opened his eyes, and stopped moving so much. Then, he closed his eyes again, and began squirming again.

A few minutes later, I asked his cardiologist about it; the cardiologist was also his attending physician. He told me that my father's brain was dying, and that they were agonic movements. Recognition of one's loved ones runs deep in the nervous system, and is often seen during the process of brain death.

The cardiologist became a family friend, and also attended my grandmother's dying last October, also from CHF. He is a devout Roman Catholic who during his adulthood, converted from his childhood religion of Buddhism. The man would no more hasten a natural death than burn down a church.

Terri Schiavo is in a similar state as my father was, only her demise is happening more slowly. Because they can provoke responses from her deep neurology, they assume that Michael is trying to kill her.

Whatever Terri is experiencing, it is also difficult to imagine what Michael is going through. Half the people in this country hate his guts, and no matter what the outcome is, they will keep persuing him and filing actions against him in court, no matter how frivolous or malicious. They will try and convict him in the court of public opinion and probably win. They will bankrupt him, break him, and send him to prison one way or another. And if their less-sane members are true to form, they will take shots at him, with the goal of killing him an his new family.

You should know that I am against pulling the plug, and do have considerable sympathy for Terri Schiavo. But her supporters have turned into an ugly, dramatizing, hysterical mob that has also turned hateful. It's moral theater of the absurd, God help them all.

--p!
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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. "Terri Schiavo is in a similar state ..."
"Terri Schiavo is in a similar state as my father was, only her demise is happening more slowly. Because they can provoke responses from her deep neurology, they assume that Michael is trying to kill her."

No she is not, your father had a functioning brain. Terri has fluid where her brain used to be. She has no responses, her brain can respond like a glass of water. Michael is not trying to kill her, she died 15yrs ago, Michael wants to stop the state/parents from animating a corpse.

Why deny Terri's right to die with dignity? Where was it stated that she wanted to be the New Right to Life Living Float? Parade her out on high holy days. Virgin Mary sightings in the folds of her sheets. She has become Florida's new Freak show.

So what if he is getting on with his life, as best he can? Afterall his wife is gone.

"The man would no more hasten a natural death than burn down a church."

Terri's natural death is being prevented, in a cruel manner, not for Terri, she is gone, past feeling anything. But cruel for her parents, they will never have healing closer, And cruel for Michael. Having to endure the endless attacks on his character. And watching his wife become a Freak sideshow.

Terri had picked this man, as her husband. Is it so strange that she would confide in him regarding this situation? Does this notion seem unheard of to you? Haven't you had talks simular with your spouse?

Even if she didnt speak to him on this subject. He alone has legal right to make choices concerning her medical care, with advise from Medical Doctors. Being her lawful Husband. And who benefits having Terri kept artificially alive?

If law is passed that she can not speak for herself, so must fall on the side of life...what about the newborn horribly malformed and not expected to live...artificially prolong the infant's agony, because the child can not speak for it's self, must fall on the side of life?

This sets a dangereous question, should the government be allowed to intrude this much in our daily lives? Even so much as taking the right of choice on medical care? Would even question a person's right to refuse medical care. you would be FORCED by LAW to take that Chemo treatment, or Have that Surgery. You would have no choice in your medical care.

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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Some clarifications
I may have left some less-than-accurate perceptions about my take on the Schiavo case.

First, although there may be dramatic differences between the physiologies of Terri Schiavo and my father, they were, indeed, similar. The brain state they shared was that they had each lost their cerebral cortices. If Terri's has turned to fluid in the past 15 years, it has not made a difference. While Terri's body and brain can struggle and experience pleasure and misery, there is no perception of these states. They occur on a level far below that of normal cortical functioning.

As Terri's brain has died (at least above the brainstem), so did my father's.

Second, you may think I am denying Terri the right to die. I am not. Although I would give anyone "the benefit of the doubt", this case has become a matter of forcing their will on Michael Schiavo. She has not responded to therapy of any kind in a decade and a half. Just because she may appear to be alive and high-functioning, she is not; the recordings of her "responses" showed agonic movements and complex reflex reactions. These are the recordings being shown that "prove" Terri is facing a so-called execution when that is not the case.

This case has become a freak show of the religiously (or is it politically?) insane venerating a "living corpse" and persecuting her husband, while making a grand guignol political power play. Which is why I say "I am not in favor of pulling the plug, but ..." The plug was out of the socket long ago, and the fanatics are stoked on their collective ego trip.

It would have been possible to keep both my father and grandmother alive, by artificial means, for years. We -- my mother and I -- allowed nature to take its course. I was with my grandmother at the moment she died, and I did not want to give her up. Like the pro-Terri crowd, I am not willing to give up on the living. Unlike the pro-Terri crowd, I am also not willing to pretend that I am an omnipotent, judgemental God who holds the power of life and death.

Here's the way I put it, in religious terms: In the case of my family members, when God called, I let go. If the Terri fans really love their now-inert icon, they will likewise let her go.

--p!
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. Easy to edit video to support a cause... isn't it?
The parents should put themselves in the place of their daughter and ask themselves... if they want to continue in that state.

I for one would not want to for many reasons. I want to enjoy life. I would not want others to agonize over my state. I would want everyone to remember me when I was at my best and not my worst.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #25
165. So why don't you go down and put her out of her misery?
Anyone here so anxious for her death willing to pop her? Why don't they just take a gun and splatter the brain matter she has left all over the wall.

It would be quick and easy, unlike what is going to happen.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #165
183. I am not the husband!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
His wife did not give ME instructions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #11
135. Ya know Abby--that's my fear too....
Edited on Thu Mar-17-05 10:30 AM by pacoyogi
If Terri were given to the Schindlers, how long before their home became a Fatima-like shrine to idiocy. Imagine--for sale, and audience with Terri, locks of her hair, etc.....sighting of the VM, next.

The parents already have a prayer card on their website with Terri's picture on it.

Dog save us all.....
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. There are no winners in this case. Only the media that sensationalizes
this woman's life and one day her physical death. The courts have accepted the fact that she is functionally brain dead and that her responses are involuntary. The same thing happens in nursing homes all over the country. To pretend otherwise is pure wishful thinking.

I think this woman should be moved outside the media glare. Perhaps the husband is at fault, perhaps the parents. As I said, there are no winners in a case like this. Sadly for the woman, her life and her lack of privacy has become a grotesque parody of American life today.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
154. MichiganVote...
You have wonderfully summed up what I think about this, as well. It's sad for everyone involved, and I suspect that all of them are filled with real pain and heartache.
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BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. Quixote1818.. I live a few blocks from Terri and you are 100%
..correct. I'm not going to go into all the facts but Terri is a carrot....she has been that way for almost 15 years. The husband has been offered up to 1 million dollars to "Get out" of the scene and won't do it. Every respectable Doctor agrees with the husband. Every Doctor I'VE talked to agrees with the husband.

Jesus Christ..Let the poor Woman go...

These Clowns that have been hanging around here are the worst kind of Nuts...I've tried to have a reasonable conversation with them for 2 weeks now and all they can say is "You're going to hell...All you Liberals are doomed to rot in hell...

Take my word for it...the TV camera's won't really show who these people really are..
They're fucking right-wing Nuts!
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JitterbugPerfume Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. My son lived for ten years
in the same exact condition Terry is in I can not bear to look at the pictures of her , as the vacant look is the same look my Jeremy had

At first I tried to convince myself that he would get better
Then finally I knew he would never be my happy child again


What would I do if I had it to do over?

I
honestly do not know

was it for ME or for him??

I honestly do not know

Do not judge either side to
harshly

They ALL have a broken heart
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I am very sorry to hear about your loss.
Can you explain your grief afterwords? My feeling all along has been that Terri's parents can't begin to heal and grieve until they accept that Terri is gone. Would you agree they need closure? Is the false hope more damaging than coming to terms with the reality of the situation?

I would appreciate your thoughts.
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JitterbugPerfume Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Terri is dead already
How I wish I has the courage to realise that about my Jeremy

it would have saved him and a lot of people pain and suffering that goes on until this day
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Judgement
Personally?

I don't go too harshly on the Schindlers (Terri's parents). I've been in the situation of authorizing three of my family members to be allowed to die by withholding aggressive medical treatment. It is probably the most emotionally painful thing that a person will ever do.

It's the "Peanut Gallery" I take issue with.

They are a bunch of high-drama, sensation-seeking, politically ambitious moralizers who are suffering vicariously for kicks, political gain and public performance.

They have accused Michael Schiavo of every possible crime their heated passions can invent. Osteoporosis-related fractures are "sure signs" that he beat her as she lay helpless; he only wants her money; he forced her to become bulimic; he's living in sin with a whore and her crack babies; ad nauseam. His every action is scrutinized and found to be evil. He is the repository of their hatreds, rationalized as holy outrage; yet the very fact that he has not filed legal actions against the high-profile, deep-pocketed bench jumpers is testimony to his patience.

Terri's suffering ended when her cerebral cortex died; and these so-called "pro-life" jihadis will make sure that Michael's ends only with his own death, too.

--p!
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deek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #16
193. I feel for your loss
of the son you used to have.

When dreams are shattered, it takes time to find new ones to attach to.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
21. Regardless of her condition or how they plan on euthanizing her...
Those RW fundies are fucking nuts and have no right to interfere they way they have.

They are talking about storming the facility she is in and KIDNAPPING her.

I wonder if they will use bombs or guns like they do at the abortion clinics.



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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. It sounds like they are willing to take a life to save a life...How stupid
is that? Their very actions are so hypocritical. Totally insane.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #21
162. But they ACLU has the right to have her starved to death?
Edited on Thu Mar-17-05 11:17 AM by Zuni
I am sorry, the ACLU has no right to get involved either.

Euthanasia is usually quick and painless. Starving this girl to death will be long and heinous.


I would rather have the fundies take her and feed her than the state of Florida starve her to death.
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deek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #162
194. ACLU is reconsidering their position
after listening to disability advocates.

see www.notdeadyet.org
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
182. That might not be a bad idea
let the fundies take her home. Get her off welfare, first though, because welfare money is socialism or communism and dissolution of that is also a goal of fundies.

Let her pull herself up by her bootstraps because she sinned in starving herself which resulted in heart failure, and let them take her home. Care for her 24/7. Pay for all the formula, the lifts, the diapers, the laundry and all the rest.

Let them take her into their home. Anyone volunteered yet? If not, maybe they could get something going in the church that would sign up volunteers.

Have any of them volunteered to take her home, let go of the "state" money,use faith based charity to fund her care? Anyone offered to do that yet?

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deek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #182
195. Why is this about the money?
That's a neocon approach.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #195
198. Because dear
welfare and those on welfare, as in "welfare moms" has always been disdained by right wingers.

If this woman is on welfare, then do we not as taxpayers, have the right to object, as do the right wingers, to slough offs that take our money whle they contribute nothing to the community?

The woman is by all intents and purposes, dead, and has been for fifteen years.

Are there any of these right wingers, who are, btw, most certainly the neo-con thinkers, than I could ever be, me, who would die first before adopting that fascist belief, who will volunteer to take her off welfare, since they are the ones that attack women on welfare as welfare queens, take her into their home, care for her, 24/7, buy the equiptment, do the cleaning, and etc etc. Are there any churches that are organizing such an effort amongst their congregations?

Why should my money be paid out to sustain an obvious dead person?
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
203. Zuni -
I am stunned by many of your statements in this case. You cannot seem to seperate what seems like a horrible and cruel thing TO YOU from the realitites of the medical evidence and legal opinions regarding SOMEONE ELSE. I know the removal of her feeding tube seems harsh to you, but please take comfort in the fact that she won't starve to death in pain and discomfort. She FEELS NO PAIN. She won't even feel hungry. She'll simply drift off to sleep.

The sooner she goes the better for everyone involved - especially her...closure, at last.

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Shanty Oilish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
204. How did this all begin?
Let's say you're twenty. You see a movie and mention to your spouse that you wouldn't want to be "kept alive" by machines.
"How about if there are no machines but you can't feed yourself?"
"Let me die, then."
"Well, what if you're not dying? Just partly paralyzed and brain-damaged."
"Wow, that would be awful. But is it legal to stop feeding someone who isn't dying?"
"Not yet."
"Maybe never. Especially for good Catholics like me. Still, you're my hubby and I trust you completely. You'll do what's right."
"Sure will! Now one more thing. Say it happens. Would you mind if I just forgot we had this conversation until I got all the money I could, from lawsuits? Just let me collect it and then, after a couple of months at most, I'll remember this discussion. I'll stop all therapy and attempts to rehabilitate, I'll keep your parents from seeing you if they give me any shit, and I'll find myself another mate, have kids, and fight like a pit bull for your right to die. You know I'll look out for your interests, a lot better than your parents would. Is it a deal?"

What would YOU say?
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #204
208. Just partly paralyzed and brain-damage????
Edited on Thu Mar-17-05 10:02 PM by Quixote1818
Sorry but she is a Vegetable and her C-Cortex is NOT functioning at all. It's filled with fluid. She can't think, can't love, cant feel pain, cant remember memories, cant reason, cant recognize anyone. A small part of her brain has function but that part does not contain the things that make people people. She is little more than a video game with a feeding tube acting as a battery.


Answer honestly!!! Would you want to be kept alive in that state?
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GodHelpUsAll2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #208
209. I think most of the people
who are so adament about keeping her alive have never personally experienced anything even remotely like Teri's situation. It's one of those "see it on TV and spout off what you would do" kind of things. However, I think if it was in their own house and they has to watch a family member or someone very close to them live like Terri has they may have a different view of it all. It's really easy to give advise on something you have never had to deal with yourself.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #209
210. Correct but actually polls suggest the public is behind the husband
nt
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #210
212. Is that the same public that thinks Saddam helped Osama?

Case closed.
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deek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-18-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #212
217. dembones!
Another DU voice of reason and compassion!
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