Can shooting someone in the ass be deemed "self defense"?

[CatWoman]

apparently so. In Georgia, no less. Maybe it helps being a beauty queen:

SAVANNAH, Ga. (AP) - A beauty queen who shot and killed her two-timing boyfriend was found not guilty of murder Wednesday.

Sharron Nicole Redmond admitted shooting her boyfriend outside the home of another woman he was dating, but said she was acting in self-defense. Redmond, 23, had faced an automatic life sentence if convicted of Kevin Shorter's death on Dec. 16, 2003. Four months earlier she had been crowned Miss Savannah.

The jury of nine women and three men deliberated for more than nine hours over two days before reaching their verdict.

Both women testified that the beauty queen went to Hall's home the night of the shooting to clear up allegations that she had made harassing phone calls to Hall. Each testified that they talked peacefully.

After a tense confrontation, both Redmond and Shorter appeared to be leaving when the beauty queen fired a single shot from inside her car. The bullet struck Shorter in the right buttock, severing his femoral artery.

Shorter died from blood loss three days later at a Savannah hospital.

http://11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=60391

[Neecy]

1. I guess so...

Not that there are any similarities to this case, but I remember the murder of Latasha Harlins in Los Angeles in the early 1990's - she was a 16 year old who was involved in an altercation with a Korean liquor store owner in south central over a false accusation of shoplifting, and the merchant picked up a gun, assumed a firing stance, and shot Harlins in the back of the head as she was leaving the store.

Although the jury found the merchant guilty of second-degree murder - the whole thing was on the store's security video, and clearly showed that Latasha was leaving the store and presented no threat - the judge let the killer walk with a suspended sentence and probation. Apparently she believed in the self-defense argument, and it was possibly the worst judicial decision in the history of California.

I honestly believe that the disposition of this case is a major reason why Simpson walked as well.

[CatWoman]

3. I remember that

and when the riot broke out via the Rodney King verdict, that guy's store was the first hit and burned to the ground.

[Neecy]

5. yep

Koreatown was hit hard, and that's why.

I never would have known the story because the LA Times hardly covered it (and in fact, they avoided linking it to the rioting in Koreatown - perhaps because they didn't bother to cover it from the beginning). I only heard about it because my African-American co-workers were totally enraged by the judge's decision, and of course one understands why. What's sad is that nothing was done after the verdict to diffuse the anger between the Korean and African-American communities in south central, and when the riots began, so did the revenge. All over a judge's stunning decision that a 16 year old girls life apparently meant nothing. The whole thing was a tragedy.

[sendero]

10. Sometimes..

... justice takes a while, and happens unexpectedly. But I do believe in karma :)

[KurtNYC]

9. Actual details of the shooting are here

Court filing are here:
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:3mg8fhDySbsJ:www.asamst.ucsb.edu/courses/readings100dd/soon_ja_du.doc+latasha+harlins&hl=en

Harlins was 15 when she was killed. She entered the store and placed a container of orange juice in her backpack.

According to defendant, she asked Latasha to pay for the orange juice and Latasha replied, "What orange juice?" Defendant concluded that Latasha was trying to steal the juice.

Defendant began pulling on Latasha's sweater in an attempt to retrieve the orange juice from the backpack. Latasha resisted and the two struggled. Latasha hit defendant in the eye with her fist twice. With the second blow, defendant fell to the floor behind the counter, taking the backpack with her. During the scuffle, the orange juice fell out of the backpack and onto the floor in front of the counter. Defendant testified that she thought if she were hit one more time, she would die. Defendant also testified that Latasha threatened to kill her. Defendant picked up a stool from behind the counter and threw it at Latasha, but it did not hit her.

Also the conviction was for "voluntary manslaughter"

Now PLEASE NOTE I am NOT defending the shopkeeper's use of deadly force but the actual details of the case make it more of a gray area. I doubt that anyone could walk into a liquor store, put merchandise in their backpack and then punch the armed shopkeeper in the face twice without some reaction.

[CatWoman]

11. well

he could have called the police. ya think?

[Neecy]

12. I'll read the link...

Does it mention that the security video shows Harlins approach Soon Ja Du with money in her hand, in order to pay for the orange juice? Hardly something a shoplifter would do...

The first physical contact, as you point out, was Du grabbing Harlins.

The defendent naturally would have testified to anything to save her skin, but the children who witnessed the entire event never brought up the death threat. They also testified that Du didn't politely ask for payment - she said something along the lines of "Are you trying to steal my orange juice, bitch?". How would you react if this was said to you, and the merchant then manhandled you?

The merchant instigated the entire event, accused Harlins of stealing when she was clearly intending to pay, and began the fight. Even if Harlins was intending to steal a $1.79 bottle of juice, that doesn't give Du the right to murder her over it. And that's what she got away with.

[Neecy]

13. wow...

okay, this is weird - I'm reading the link, and today is the 14th anniversary of Harlin's death.

And here is the crux of the case: "After throwing the stool, defendant reached under the counter, pulled out a holstered .38-caliber revolver, and, with some difficulty, removed the gun from the holster. As defendant was removing the gun from the holster, Latasha picked up the orange juice and put it back on the counter, but defendant knocked it away. As Latasha turned to leave defendant shot her in the back of the head from a distance of approximately three feet, killing her instantly. Latasha had $ 2 in her hand when she died."

In. the. back. of. the. head. And Du walked. How can anyone defend that?

[KurtNYC]

19. Again, I don't think anyone should be shot over $2 worth of food

My point was this was a very different situation than the one cited by the OP. This escalates rapidly from words to fists to the gun. The case cited by the OP is between two people who are separated or moving away from each other.

The Harlin's shooting was one event in a series which lead to the LA Riots following the not guilty verdicts for 4 LAPD officers charged in the beating of Rodney King. And it was tragic on several levels and illuminated issues in the wider community:
- kids going to a "liquor store" to buy food because it is one of the few businesses in the area,
- one minority group running stores in another minority neighborhood, selling Thunderbird, creating a nuisance by attracting certain types of customers and almost never hiring anyone outside of their immediate family
- long standing racial tensions which can escalate rapidly over petty events

In a forshadowing of the LAPD verdicts, Los Angelenos cynically expected, I think, that the woman who shot Latasha Harlins would get less punishment than this crime deserved. But even with the cynicsim that comes from following how the justice system fails to work in LA,they did not expect that she would serve no jail time at all and be given probation immediately.

[VelvetMonkeyWrench]

2. WTF?

I've been through all sorts of weapons training, and there's NO WAY that situation is "self defense".

a) she went looking for trouble
b) she could have just drove away
c) she shot someone who was apparently retreating

Sounds like at least 3rd degree murder, maybe 2nd degree murder. I'm not familiar enough with the GA firearms laws to make a call on 1st degree. In FL, a 1st degree indictment could be supportable because of the "securely encased" language that applies to storage of a weapon in an auto.

[skypilot]

4. Not unless she feared...

...that he was going to let rip with a killer wind breakage. Just what we need, killer "beauty queens" on the loose.

[CatWoman]

6. *shhhhhhhhh*

Fox may be reading this.

Don't give them any ideas for more idiotic reality shows!!!!!

[skypilot]

7. Oh, I'm sure it's much too late for that.

God only knows what they're working on as we speak.

[Dave Reynolds]

16. Everybody run!

The homecoming queen has a gun!

[Tactical Progressive]

8. Sounds like manslaughter

Shooting someone in the ass doesn't show an intent to kill.

Did the DA maybe overreach in going for a murder verdict?

[fob]

14. I SWEAR that subject line read like this;

Cat shooting someone in the ass, deemed "self-defense"


You have amazing mystical powers CatWoman, that's all I'm gonna say.

[CatWoman]

15. heh

It's Streak's doing. :D

She's a "mule", according to Skittles :D

[DoNotRefill]

17. there were several factors here...

The guy apparently had a history of domestic violence. When he arrived, he said "Bitch, I'm going to kill you." That's generally seen as a threat. When he was shot, he was reaching into his car. She testified that she thought he was going for his gun (and apparently the jury believed her). And she apparently didn't aim for him, he was hit and killed by a ricochet off the car.

[Jesus Saves]

18. sounds like the beginning of a movie

[Boo Boo]

20. With a jury, anything is possible

I suppose. But, the rules are pretty clear: you have to be in fear for your life, or perhaps protecting the life of another to claim self defense. Shooting somebody in the back means you have explaining to do. If the person is in your home that's one thing, but if not...

This girl wasn't even at her own house? Isn't it rather obvious that she could have simply driven off in her car? It was established that the couple were walking away?

That's not self-defense folks.

Sounds like maybe the DA made a big mistake with the murder charge. Jury probably spent their time haggling over intent (i.e. she meant to shoot him in the ass, not kill him), decided it wasn't murder. Probably could have gotten a manslaughter conviction.

Ooops.