WOW..a triple murderer picked Ashley's apartment to go to be saved

[burythehatchet]

What a friggin stroke of god's work, eh? She's pretty, charming, photogenic, she brought out her bible, she pulled a Tony Robbins on him, ...Damn! that's one lucky dude.

Sometimes you just have to thank god for the way he makes these miracles happen. Hallelujah..

[Walt Starr]

1. Actually, I find it a heroic and compelling story

I don't agree with her religious choice, but that's her choice, and if it worked to have this man in custody for his crimes, more power to her.

[burythehatchet]

2. you're supposed to find it heroic and compelling, Walt

my tinfoil hat is permanently soldered onto my skull

[nickinSTL]

5. heh my thoughts exactly

more stories appearing of the power of God and belief in Jesus lately?

Brainwash people into believing in the 'power of God' - they're easier to control...especially if they see the government as a tool of that god.

:tinfoilhat:

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

10. Hyper-religiosity happens after any major cataclysmic event (e.g., 9/11)

I don't see any nefarious government control issue here, only a pretty predictable shift towards matters of faith when the uneducated or psychologically weak are threatened by events out of his/her control.

The inherently arbitrary aspect of life and fear of ultimate death (i.e., thought of no afterlife) scares the CRAP out of people. Religion is a defense against this fear.

Some people cannot handle the notion that "shit happens" and must ascribe a purpose to any seemingly random event. A good example of this behavior, while not religious, can be seen in the attempts by some to pin this event on "government control"...if some here would care to look honestly into the mirror.

JB

[Elidor]

127. Well said, JB

Very well said.

[Walt Starr]

8. Are you trying to imply that this was all staged?

If so, that's the most idiotic conspiracy theory I ever heard of!

[RubyDuby in GA]

13. I don't think that's what he meant at all. It's just how the pathetic

paper here in Atlanta is spinning it. When the fucking headline of the major Atlanta paper reads "An angel sent from God" and the subheading is "Taken hostage in her home, woman shares her life, faith" and all you keep hearing about is that it's a miracle and she's here to do God's work and bear in mind that the damn Christian Coalition of Georgia spawned the evil that is Ralph Reed and Sadie Fields, this is not helping any progressive cause in Georgia.

And what a bunch of bullshit that she actually followed him in her car while he dumped the truck that he had last stolen and then she brought him back to her apartment and made him breakfast. Like the rest of the jesus freaks here in GA, her elevator doesn't go all the way to the top.

[Mistress Quickly]

19. So when you have a Christian

who does act in a compassionate and caring way, you slam her, but if she killed him in cold blood and said she was doing God's will, you would slam her.

[RubyDuby in GA]

26. No, I don't give a flying fuck if she's a christian or not, I do however

care that that's the only thing THE MAJOR ATLANTA PAPER has to comment on.

Give me a damn break here. That's the only thing that's being covered. It was the only angle on the morning shows this morning. It was the only angle being covered on radio news.

If you want to be a compassionate christian, that's fine with me. If you want to worship a green monkey, that's also fine with me.
But don't lose objectivity and report to me as fact that it's all God's doing that this murderer has been brought to justice.

[LisaL]

64. Exactly. One wonders why God didn't interfere before this

guy killed this poor judge?

[Career Prole]

86. Gawdzwill must have wanted him dead.

The adults blame Gawdzwill for more $hit than we kids ever blamed on ol' Mr. Nobody!

MOM: "Who knocked that lamp over?"

CHILD: "Nobody did, Mom...honest!"


CHILD: "Why did Fluffy die, Ma?

MOM: "It was Gawdzwill."

[okieinpain]

96. maybe it is god's doing. hmmmmm!!!! there's nothing wrong with

that.

[LisaL]

20. She is alive and well, so, whatever she did, it was the right thing

to do. Considering how many people this maniac killed, getting into his good graces was a good idea. But you are right, I am getting kind of upset because they all blabble about this woman who survived. What about all the people he killed?

[RamboLiberal]

33. She's damn lucky as well she's not victim #5

I think a lot of what she did was right - but IMHO when he left his guns in the apartment and had her follow him in her car - and she had a cell phone, she should've did a U Turn or turned off while calling 911 instead of worrying the cops would come and shoot him.

[LisaL]

57. Maybe she is a victim of Stockholm syndrome? It's a defense

mechanism, which could develop when a person is kidnapped. In order to survive, the victim has to believe their kidnapper is a good person. Sometimes the victim doesn't want to leave their kidnapper. And certainly the victim doesn't want to see their kidnapper hurt.

[Walt Starr]

60. She wasn't really worried the cops would shoot him

By her own words, she was certain she would get away unharmed. Her fear was he would get away as well and would go on to kill again.

She did the heroic thing. Self preservation is a strong instinct and she overcame that instinct for a stronger sense of community preservation.

[RamboLiberal]

102. Actually Walt - she took the chance he would

kill her and the cops would not have known. She actually risked more lives. He'd probably have been quickly captured if she had called 911 then.

[Walt Starr]

122. Well, if what I just heard is true I've lost all respect for her

Apparently, she's a dittohead and is appearing on the Sean Hannity show.

[onenote]

123. have we reached the point

where we can applaud someone's actions until we find out their political views and then we no longer respect them? I know a lot of repubs that I disagree strongly with on a range of issues, but those same people do things (like contribute to a charitable foundation that I serve) and I respect them for that notwithstanding our disagreements.

onenote

[Walt Starr]

125. Yes, we have. Dittoheads, Freepers, Neocons, Bushbots, Republicans, etc.

ARE MY SWORN ENEMIES FOR LIFE!

[LisaL]

124. Well, what did you expect?

Like I said, she wasn't faking it when she read to him from the bible.

[Lars39]

22. Sounds like she came mighty close to being

an accessory after the fact.

[Walt Starr]

25. Speaking quite frankly as a "rabid" non-Christian

MORE POWER TO HER!!! WHATEVER IT TOOK TO CALM THE BUTAL MURDEROUS BASTARD DOWN AND GET HIM TO SURRENDER PEACEFULLY!!!!!!

I'm glad she did it and don't give a shit how many people scream about it being a miracle form god! GOOD ON HER!! She reisked her life out of concern for the community when she could have gotten away from him and guaranteed her survival!

[Blue_Roses]

37. thanks

I couldn't agree more:thumbsup:

[Is It Fascism Yet]

135. LOL, well said, Walt. n/t

[silvermachine]

141. Absolutely Walt.

Thanks. And I can't believe the pettiness of some people on this board. Sickening.

[tinonedown]

9. Is that a tinfoil hat you are wearing?

Or is it a disguise so you can start threads slamming Christianity undetected?
I SEE YOU.

[Old Deuteronomy]

121. We ALL do....

never mind .. it matters not. Play nice.

[notadmblnd]

29. I'll say.. mine too

I do find the channels pushing this gawd stuff to be a little out there. It must be my tinfoil mind because when I heard her say "he told me to put my hands behind my back, I put them in a prayer position and he tied them that was with extension cord," I automatically tried to put my hands behind my back in a prayer position. Maybe I'm just too fat, but I couldn't get my wrists together that way behind my back. Sure they could have been tied tightly enough to draw them together but then I would have marks on my wrists.

[renate]

120. I assume she meant her fingers were pointing down?

If they were pointing up it'd get very painful very quickly (I just tried and I could do it, but mega-ouchy wrists after a few seconds), but just putting the palms together behind her back would be no problem at all (aside from the obvious one of bound wrists!) if her fingers were pointing down.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

134. Actually, I thought she survived by dumb luck!

She leaves at 2 in the morning and sees him sitting in his car, she comes back, he is still there, she is afraid, but nonetheless she gets out of her car. (wrong, if you are afraid, use your fear to save your life) Okay, she gets out of the car, and she hears his car door slam immediately after hers, so, she quickly heads for her apartment...more dumbness...once she realized this person who made her nervous was coming up behind her, why didn't she hop back into the car and take off? If no time for that, then she should have confronted him, screamed bloody murder, fought. She was very docile when taken. She obediently got into the bathtub and let him tie her up. When somebody starts duck taping you into your bathtub, whether or not you live is no longer up to you. It is certainly only by sheer good luck that this lady lived, because, her attitude was as vulnerable and unresourceful as it possibly could be.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

3. We'll see how compassionate the Xtians are when it comes to sentencing

The fundies will trot this story out for weeks as an example of "gOD's plan" and will extoll the virtues of Xtian belief.

But, I can guarantee you that the MAJORITY of these same folks will be screaming bloody murder for the DEATH PENALTY in this case. At least the devout Catholics will be morally consistent, but not the Southern Xtian fundies...I guarantee it.

Let the hypocracy begin...

JB

[burythehatchet]

4. you're forgetting he killed one of them activist judges

a judge that O'reilly had railed against for some time

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

6. Wow, I didn't know that. So, I guess the truly crazy will see this as a +

The ultimate fringe will perceive this as gOD's retribution and redemption...but they will still be screaming to fry the fucker. Guaranteed.

African-American cop killers in the South raises all sorts of crazed Mandingo-like fears in the Caucasian populace down here. The logic is something like, "if he can kill the police, then there's ultimately no protection for our white women."

JB

[CottonBear]

11. See the Georgia forum

for a thread about O'Reilly and his "campaign" against Judge Barnes and the Atlanta DA, Paul Howard.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=146x1851

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

12. Thanks! n/t

JB

[Sequoia]

146. I didn't know that. I smell a fish.

Sounds like a plan to me. What judge is up to take his place?

[diamond14]

45. KILLING by the taxpayers of SOUTHERN STATES: execution map

they're a BLOOD-THIRSTY bunch down South....most of the NORTHERN states feel that it's enough (and it's cheaper) to keep a criminal LOCKED UP for the rest of their lives....but the SOUTHERN states demand revenge, and KILL to teach their citizens that IT's WRONG TO KILL (it's really a bush* fundie illogical, church-led bloody revenge)


even places like New York City and Detroit feel no necessity to KILL prisoners...it's clearly just a SOUTHERN phenomena...

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

48. GREAT POST. Thanks! What's up with the Texas executions...geesh.

I'm thinking it's time to see if Mexico wants the Texas Territories back in their fold. What a bunch of blood-thirsty Neandertals...

JB

[diamond14]

59. maybe the defense gets the HOSTAGE to plea for the KILLER's life in court

afterall...it was a MIRACLE that gawwddd sent the killer to HER apartment....and now they are brother/sister in gawwddd....



the court drama may end up almost as interesting as strom thurmond's BLACK child stepping up to the microphones...

[FreedomAngel82]

111. I think it's kinda strange

how they think it's wrong to murder but then turn around and murder themselves a human being. Don't they see what's wrong with that picture? They claim to be pro-life but they really aren't. Only on fetus'. :eyes: As a fellow Christian I'm disgusted by how these extreme fundies are. I think if they had their way they'd go back to burning/hanging "witches" (I put quotes in witches because in the Salem Trials they mainly weren't witches, maybe like one out of ten or something).

[diamond14]

117. actually, it could be that the HOSTAGE-heroine pleads for killer's life

she was very clear in her interviews that the man's life has VALUE, that the man could spread gawwddd's word to other prisoners....


maybe, just maybe...this will the the CASE where a man is simply sentenced to LIFE IN PRISON, rather than executed....it's not like Georgia has the MONEY to press through for KILLING the man...which takes about 20 years until execution....very expensive REVENGE for a poor southern state....

[CottonBear]

7. I'm glad she kept him from killing anyone else

and that he surrendered peacefully.

My stepdaughter lives in the same town where Mrs. Smith lives. That man could have held my stepdaughter and her mother hostage.

[Lars39]

14. Would this woman's religious views have even been commented

on, let alone featured in the media a few years ago?
I think that is the bigger question.
Her story just adds to the pile of christian religious angle stories being
featured lately.

Would her religious beliefs have been spotlighted if she was a
Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jew, pagan? I doubt it.

[Mistress Quickly]

16. If she used it as an aid

in getting him to surrender, yes, I think it would have.

[Lars39]

18. I don't agree.

10 yrs ago she would have merited a "just the facts" type of coverage,
with minimal or zero mention of her faith.

[Mistress Quickly]

21. I'll admit that

A few years ago, it may not have, but I think nowadays it would have.

[FreedomAngel82]

112. I doubt it too

They wouldn't even be running this story if she was a Jew, Muslim or pagan or wiccan.

[Mistress Quickly]

15. You're right

Bush himself called Bob Jones and had him go down and instruct Nichols on what to do: break free and kill deputies, a judge and others, the escape and eventually Mr. Jones would pick up mr. Nichols and drop him off at Ms. Smith's house, after killing an Immigration official.

Darn, you found out!

Your fear of Christianity, and misunderstanding of it, is telling.


( do I have to put that this is sarcasm? )

[burythehatchet]

113. Holy cow...you found out about my fear of Christianity????

How in the heck were you able to do that? I've tried to keep it well disguised.

( do I have to put that this is sarcasm? )

[Stop_the_War]

17. who is Ashley? Ashley Simpson?

:shrug:

[RebelOne]

23. The woman who called 911 and had Nichols captured.

[kentuck]

28. Did he think she would not call 911??

Did she call with her cell phone? Did he want her to call?

[cynatnite]

24. The story was making headlines BEFORE he took her hostage

Think about it folks. When he was on the loose there was a major manhunt going on. This was covered on all the networks before he came across this girl.

She's got courage and my hat's off to her for thinking with a clear head and getting the guy to give up.

[peacetalksforall]

27. Every wants to see it their way....and there are too many weird things

here - probably all fall out from our human natures...but think for a minute about some of the weird things....

starting with wall to wall nationwide news coverage with millions and millions of words coming from employees of corporations whose value to the situation was absolutely worthless.

I assumed that this man was a ruthless rapist and my first thought on hearing that he escaped was that he would go on a raping spree, possibly in addition to a killing spree.

I realized after that I know nothing of his case except that he got off once through a technicality.

I hear a rumor that O'Reilly said that the judge deserved to be shot so I made an assumption that there were some right wing resentments in the history.

I wonder why I heard one news reporter say that Nichols shaved his head - this was many hours before he was caught.

I wonder how fast the news outlets would have dropped their coverage of the women if she had come out wearing a peace sign on her t-shirt and had said something about the inequalities in our society in addition to giving an account of the event.

There are many strange things in this case. It invites more investigation or patience until more comes out.

I'm keeping an open ear to his background to find out why he said he was a soldier.

Given the lies that have left me a freaking doubter about anything that comes out of MSM - a front for the WH - I want to listen to hear if I pick up more incongruencies.

[Blue_Roses]

32. let me get this straight...

you think there is a WH conspiracy in this whole thing:shrug:

Please tell me you're kidding:eyes:

[peacetalksforall]

46. I'm saying that I believe nothing coming from MSM therefore I have to

think through things for myself and wait to hear more and how things unravel. I refuse to rely on corporations for the truth. In the meantime, while listening to the drumming of repetition, I have to keep my years open for the little misfits of information.

If it's true that O'Reilly said that then it means that I should try keep my years open to hear more about the judge.

I'm also saying that thie is weird so far.

Given those prefaces, I said that I have more curiousity than I usually do over a crime that corporate TV deems worthy of covering all over the country and the world? for days on end.

You are saying what you said - I didn't. I'm only saying the above.

[Blue_Roses]

51. It is a rivoting story

is why it's getting this news coverage--plus CNN is out of Atlanta and the guy was seen on their surveillance camera in the parking lot. I have been glued and even gone to the web site to make more sense out of something that is senseless. This is a horrible crime --nothing more--nothing less.

[peacetalksforall]

62. Glad to know YOU can be so absolute and trusting. n/t

[Blue_Roses]

68. when it comes to this administration

I'm not "absolute and trusting," however, this has nothing to do with the WH.

[kittenpants]

90. have you seen her (Smith) telling the story?

I agree the media is just falling all over themselves with this, but she actually seems to be a strong, interesting person. What's annoying is the media's fawning that turns this all into such syrup.

[Blue_Roses]

101. yes, exactly

I saw it last night--twice and it went from a brave girl to this sappy syrup they are trying to put on it.

[Blue_In_AK]

131. I agree with you, Kittenpants...

...I believe she kept her head and did an excellent job of empathising with Mr. Nichols, all the more remarkable since I believe I heard that her own husband had been murdered five years ago. I admire her for her fearlessness and compassion.

The news coverage I have seen hasn't played up so much the religious aspect which may be why I'm not quite as put off as a lot of you are. But I don't see it as Ms. Smith's fault that the media is manipulating her story the way it is.

[silvermachine]

142. Well said.

I think she is strong and courageous and to be admired. I am NOT a christian and don't care about her faith. I AM bothered that the msm and others will try to turn this into a pro-christian/RW story rather than focusing on her resourcefulness and courage.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

136. LOL, "nothing more nothing less"! Since when could you rely on the news

and think you knew all there is to know about any subject? LOL, that's a joke! It's very hard to separate the truth from the kool aid, and, it is virtually never "nothing more, nothing less." It so happens there is a lot more to this story. This man was accused of rape, but not real, true rape in the traditional sense of the word, but 21st century style "I-Changed-My-Mind-Mid-Coitus-Bad-Date-Rape". What in my generation used to be called "regrets" is called a felony in the younger generation. Rape is violent and forced on the victim. Nowadays many accusations of "date rape" are really just some fickle babe getting pissy and changing her mind. Witness the woman who accused Patrick Kennedy of raping her on the beach, even though she had sex with him willingly a few minutes before, she claimed the second round was rape. Thinking later that you wished you hadn't or that he has enough money to cover a lawsuit does not make it rape. Obviously, in the Atlanta case, the prosecutor was not able to convince a jury that the girlfriend's accusations were true, because, the trial ended in a "hung jury". Instead of that being an end to it, the prosecutor was trying him again, attempting for a second time to obtain a conviction. I guess double jeopardy doesn't apply? Or did that go south with the UnPatriot Act? Anyway, this was a man who felt the prosecution/persecution wasn't going to end, which was probably true, and he was pushed over the brink.

[Mistress Quickly]

138. Its not double jeopardy

because he wasn't found Not Guilty, just no verdict was reached.

I know, its not right, but that's the 'logic'.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

140. I see, well, I don't know if he was guilty or not, but,

there is always more to the story then one side! Thanks for info!

[LisaL]

38. The O'Reilly thing-this judge sentenced a woman

to have a tubal ligation because she murdered her baby by shaking her.
O'Reilly must have been upset because, I presume, he thinks this woman should have gotten a long prison sentence. I doubt O'Reilly said the judge deserved to be shot, however. It's all a bunch of nonsense that this poor judge deserved something for giving this woman a way out of prison.

[H2O Man]

30. Classic stuff here.

The more we learn about this fellow, the clearer it becomes that he is a sociopath. After commiting unspeakable violence, he just wants "some normalcy in his life"! What a fuck. If people would just let this poor guy get on with his life, right?

It is very lucky for Ashley that {a} the sociopath had shot his wad, as far as satisfying his need for violence to release the frustration he felt; and {b} that Ashley is a good person, but simple enough to fall for the line of shit he gave her. She is on tv saying that he had been "set up" on the rape charge, and thus felt forced to act out. Yeah, he sure proved he is an innocent man, hasn't he?

Ashley is the perfect example of the living victim of a sociopath. She believes that she can "save" him, if she just tries hard enough; and that it is her role to defend this poor victim of bad people who seek to harm him. How confused is her thinking? He told her he didn't want to kill his third victim, but the person's actions "forced" him to. And she believes it.

It is worth noting that Dr. Robert Hare, the man recognized as the top in the field of sociopaths, has made clear that fundie Christians are an easy target for sociopaths. Not because the Christians are "bad" in any way, but because they really want to believe that with the word of God, they can -- for example -- turn around the life of a violent mass murderer.

Had he encountered a less naive victim than Ashley, who recognized he was a sociopath, I think it is highly probable he would have killed them. Ashley was lucky, indeed. She met his need for a Christian advocate to help him "get some normalcy in his life."

[LisaL]

34. I also find it disturbing. She is telling the whole world this

guy told her he was set up for the rape. Well, if you look at the MO, he pretty much did the same thing to Ashley that he allegedly did to his ex-girlfriend( bound with tape, take into the bathroom, have long conversations, etc) except for the rape. Well, his ex-girlfriend is out there, most likely scared to death of this guy. How is that going to make her feel, when Ashley told the whole world this guy told her he was innocent of rape he was on trial for? Are people going to tell the ex-girlfriend that because she set him up for rape, he killed 4 innocent people? It's not like rape victims have it easy to begin with.

[Blue_Roses]

36. Did you hear the ENTIRE interview?

That is NOT what she said. She said (paraphrasing) that HE felt that he was not getting a fair trial and basically things were not going his way. He was mad and took out his vengence on innocent people. She WASN'T defending him, just repeating what he said.

Geezee...:eyes:

[LisaL]

40. Did you hear the talking heads on TV

mumbling about what she said-that this guy said he was innocent of rape, he was set up? If that's repeated enough-which it's clearly going to be, some people are going to think that it's the truth.

[Blue_Roses]

43. I have been GLUED to this story for the last 48 hours.

I have watched the "talking heads" till 1 am this morning trying to understand and make some sense out this tragedy. Bottom line--she got out alive--why analyze how she did it. I see her as a very brave woman and I'm glad she's alive to see her 5 year old.

[LisaL]

47. I think there is no way to make sense of it.

People have gone nuts. Look at this guy in Wisconsin-killed 7 people for no apparent reason.

[Blue_Roses]

53. and the reason it's not getting the coverage that the

Nichols story is is because the shooter killed himself. This has been a violent weekend.

[LisaL]

55. Yea, at least the Wisconsin guy had the common decency

to shoot himself afterward.

[H2O Man]

58. Yikes!

Two very different cases. Sad. Bad for America in many, many ways. The level of hatred and fear has gone up appreciably.

[LisaL]

100. Well, at least now, we don't have to listen to stories about

his said life that led him to do the killings. Or how he is a perfectly nice person that gone momentarily insane and that's why he killed all these people, which I bet Nichol's defense is going to be.

[FreedomAngel82]

114. Definetly

Oh and there's also no sex involved either with the other story. Compared to this one in Atlanta the other story for the media is boring. Just a little mention here and there. Sad really. :(

[diamond14]

129. yes, it's been a very bush* fundi violent weekend...sort of like the bush*

carnage and KILLING in Iraq, coming home to America.....


this is mostly a product of the seeds that the bush* fundi-xtian radical right planted years ago, and have now nurtured up to TWO bloody WARS, and VIOLENCE all over America....bush* fundi-fueled violence...

[Blue_Roses]

130. um

:wtf:

[Blue_Roses]

35. yes, I agree

she is very lucky indeed and even though she may have presented the story as trying to "save" him, she was really trying to "save" herself. One smart "naive" cookie in my book. Most people get shot or make the situation worse by doing quite the opposite of what she did--I would be one of them probably. Being naive' and open kept her alive.

It's simply amazing...

[Corgigal]

39. I disagree

I believe he choose this person because he perceived her as non threating. He shot everyone he though was threating. He didn't know she was a Christian, however it did help her staying alive. She became "human" to him and that is why she's alive.

I also read Hare's books but I also read some FBI books and my husband was a homicide detective. The reason she is alive is because she figured out who "he" was. I don't think any male would have made it out alive but a soft spoken non threating female did. I don't care if she reads the Bible daily and with losing her husband 4 years ago that may give her some peace but for Nichols at that time it worked. If you remember back to the Washington snipers they were caught because the younger one called a Catholic Priest.

If this guy broke into my home, hell I would be whatever it is that I needed to be and get an Oscar nomination for it too.

[LisaL]

41. I doubt I would do anywhere near as well as this woman did.

Clearly, it seems that she felt some sympathy for this guy, she wasn't faking it. He obviously sensed that. I guess that's what is confusing-how can someone have sympathy for the guy who kidnap them and could have killed them at any minute? Stockholm syndrome, maybe?

[Blue_Roses]

67. what is that syndrome where the hostage

begins to feel for their captors? I agree, I think she felt sorry for him and even though she had no doubt she was going to call 911, she seemed to show mixed feelings about betraying his trust during her interview...

I got the sense that she is a very kind person who was very sincere.

[LisaL]

71. It's a Stockholm syndrome.

It's a defense mechanism. In order to survive, the victim develops sympathy for their kidnapper, and sometimes even refuses to press charges against them afterward, etc.
"Bonding to one's captor (abuser) is a survival strategy for victims that has been observed in a variety of hostage-taking situations. This strategy was labeled Stockholm Syndrome after a hostage situation in a bank robbery in Stockholm, Sweden in 1973. Three (3) women and one (1) man were held hostage for six days by two (2) men. During this period, the four hostages and their captors bonded bi-directionally. The hostages even came to see their captors as protecting them from the police! Following the release of the hostages, one of the women became engaged to one of the captors, another of the hostage started a 'defense fund'. All this was done in the face of the fact that the hostages were bound with dynamite and generally mistreated! Such bonding to one's captor / abuser no longer considered unusual by professionals who negotiate with hostage-takers. In fact, it is encourage its development, for it improves the chances for survival of the hostages, despite the fact that it means the officials can no longer count on the cooperation of the hostages in working for their own release or in later prosecuting captors."
http://www.geocities.com/kidhistory/trauma/stockhol.htm

[H2O Man]

76. It's been mentioned on MSNBC

in the past hour.

There are a few people posting that he is not a sociopath, who have no idea what a sociopath is. But let's look closer at him, rather than her. (I think that all of us agree that she is a good and decent lady who did what she sincerely believed was best. And we can all be glad she is alive.)

But he had his little outburst, because he was mad that he was being convicted (read: held responsible) for his brutal crime against a woman who had the nerve to disagree with him, and point out he was bad. So he wanted to kill her, and got frustrated and killed four other people. Shot his wad, which is exactly what sociopaths (but not psychotic people or mere antisocial people) do.

He wants "a little normalcy in his life." There is no explanation other than sociopathy for this statement: not psychsis or antisocial, that!

He knew he was caught, and didn't have the balls to try to fight his way out. Not so brave when he doesn't have the advantage. And so he uses a woman to help save him from harm. Look at MSNBC: at least three Christian "experts" are saying that his life must be spared so that he can be an instrument to spread God's grace in prison. It would take someone with the talent of Mark Twain to make this up!

Sociopath, without any doubt.

[LisaL]

84. Cause it fits. The victims of the Stockholm syndrome

develop a bond with their kidnapper. Ashley here promised to visit this guy in prison. I bet we are going to see some tear jerking story of their visit pretty soon.

[H2O Man]

110. Besides the Stockholm syndrome

the fellow is a classic sociopath. His ability to manipulate her for his needs has resulted in her believing that he is a good man who is simply misunderstood, and being judged harshly because of a few errors in judgement.

As we watch this unfold, we will hear many more experts refer to his sociopathy. There has been some misinformation posted on a couple threads by some likely well-meaning but sadly ignorant people that should be compared to Ashley saying she feels sorry for him, because he really didn't mean to do the things he did. Sociopath taking advantage of simplicity.

[ultraist]

88. Most people here have a basic understanding of sociopathy

It was discussed on the BTK killer threads and many have backgrounds in psych or SW.

Just because he said, he wanted some "normalcy" does not mean he is a sociopath. Sociopaths are often difficult to identify within the general public because the appear to be living normal lives. Just as Ted Bundy or the BTK killer blended well with the general populace.

This guy does not necessarily have a long history of sociopathic behaviors. ONE crime, the rape, followed by a violent reaction/outburst does not make for a "pervasive pattern."

We need more info on his background before we could say, "he is a sociopath." Generally, sociopathy is characterized by a total lack of empathy and need to control.



Diagnostic criteria (DSM-IV-TR)
The DSM-IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders (see also:DSM cautionary statement), defines anti-social personality disorder as a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
reckless disregard for safety of self or others
consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another
The manual lists the following additional necessary criteria:

The individual is at least age 18 years.
There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15 years.
The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia or a Manic Episode.

Sociopathy is genetic and influenced by envio factors. Sociopaths start exhibiting symptoms well before the age of this man.

[FreedomAngel82]

115. I've been following the threads on this story

and I personally don't think he was a sociopath all his life or anything like that. From my understanding is he probably knew his second trial he was going to be going to jail and he got scared from hearing some horror stories of happenings in jail. That's when he just popped and started doing all the rampage. Then he ran into this lady who showed some compassion to him and could've helped calm his brain down and help him get some sense. I think it's sad he had to kidnap and everything else. I do think she did a smart thing though by showing compassion and not making him any more upset. Who knows what could've happened. I just think it's sad that people are focusing more on the whole God issue and her being a Christian instead of the other issues dealing with this.

[LisaL]

42. Why did he kill a court reporter? She was an older female,

and apparently very nice woman, according to people who knew her? Also a single mother?

[RubyDuby in GA]

78. Because she was in court when he was tried earlier

He was also looking around for the DA and Asst. DA, who were not there yet.

[noonwitch]

144. Because he's nuts!

There's no reasonable explanation for insanity

[Blue_Roses]

50. that would be so hard to do

I think my first instinct would be to grab the gun and probably would have ended up making things worse. When survival kicks in it's amazing how we all think differently on how to survive. My hat goes off to this brave young woman. She was very lucky and kept herself alive. It's just so hard to say what would be the right thing to do in that situation, but this should be made a textbook example, because her patience is simply amazing.

[H2O Man]

52. I'm not sure what you disagree with.

Your first paragraph says something that is similar to what I said. The only thing that is different is that you say he didn't know she was a Christian, which of course is not accurate. He absolutely knew she was a Christian -- that is clearly the point of every MSM report on this story today. (You may mean he didn't know that when he first encountered her; while true, it is not a factor, and is of no significance.)

I'm not sure what FBI book would lead you to believe that Ashley is alive because she figured out who he was. Please tell us. I should add that there is probably few if any extended families with more police at state and federal levels than my own. From state police investigators to FBI to those who trained CI investigators, and a few others. And my spouse does forensic psychiatric social work, as did I before I retired. This is a subject that I'm familiar with.

[Corgigal]

66. Sure

I just went to search for it. The book is called Sexual Homicide Patterns and Motives by Ressler,Burgress and Douglas. Sure this wasn't a "sexual" homicide but the fantasy was there and the preparation was.

I have the link on the bottom but its page 209 in the book that gives a diagram on how you can figure out who you are dealing with.
I can make a copy of it and send it to you if you like. Pm me.
I just like the their classification system of offenders and the possible courses of action. Will it always work? Probably not but scientifically it something we can all learn and work with.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0028740637/qid=1110821315/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-1126484-5162553

[H2O Man]

80. Pat Brown, a criminal profiler

was just on MSNBC. She said the guy is clearly a sociopath, for the exact same reasons as I've said in the past 24 hours on DU.

I had e-mailed you; please do send the information. In fact, he is a sexual predator, as his rape & torture of his ex-girlfriend shows. I'd be interested in the book /information you mentioned. Thanks.

[ultraist]

65. Good point Corgigal!

He viewed her as non-threatening and she handled it exceptionally well. Amazing, really. Smart woman. Her bible came in handy to manipulate him with. That's what she did. She manipulated him by getting some control over him. ("earned his trust").

I do not think he is a sociopath. Sociopaths don't have a change of heart and turn themselves in because they don't want anyone else to get killed. They have NO empathy and are total control freaks. He in essence, turned his control over to her. He also exhibited some empathy by not killing this woman and turning himself in.

This guy snapped, panicked, and reacted violently due to a big stress trigger, his trial.

[LisaL]

70. I don't think she "manipulated him". I bet she truly believed

she could save him if she reads the bible to him.

[H2O Man]

79. Yep. Right now

MSNBC has a profiler on saying he did the manipulating, and that he is a sociopath. She is saying exactly what I said on DU for the past 24 hours. Her name is Pat Brown, and she has hit the nail on the head.

[ultraist]

83. It doesn't matter if she believed her bible or not

She said, she tried to "earn his trust" and she did talk him into surrendering. That is manipulating. That is what hostage negotiators do. They try to connect with the hostage taker and "convince" (ie manipulate) them into surrendering.

Had she NOT manipulated him, she would not be alive.

[LisaL]

85. But she wasn't faking it. My point is, she wasn't faking the

sympathy she apparently feels for the guy. That's why I said she didn't manipulate him.
I mean, you could pretend you feel sympathy for the guy, and when he is not looking, get his gun (he left all 3 guns under the bed) and shoot him. She obviously didn't do it.
She was pretty sincere in what she told him.

[ultraist]

92. I agree, she wasn't faking it

One can believe the material they are using to manipulate. I think many evangelists for instance, believe their Bibles, when they seek out to manipulate others into converting. Manipulation does not mean it was done "deviously." It can be either deviously OR cleverly.

This woman cleverly managed that situation.

manipulate:
To move, arrange, operate, or control by the hands or by mechanical means, especially in a skillful manner: She manipulated the lights to get just the effect she wanted.
To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously: He manipulated public opinion in his favor.

[H2O Man]

107. You are correct.

She was not manipulating him, or attempting to manipulate him, in any way. She was trying to convince him. She is an honest and good person, and honest and good people try to convince others. He, on the other hand, is a sociopath, and only tries to manipulate others.

It's important to have a good idea the meaning of the words you use.

[ultraist]

116. "trying to convince" is manipulating, use your dictionary

[diamond14]

63. bush* fundies are having a bad week...with that Wisconsin church shoot-out

and ralph reed, and FOCUS ON THE FAMILY exposed in the Washington Post today, sucking in the GAMBLING LOBBY MONEY, and embroiled in a major corruption investigation.....WOW !....it could be END TIMES for the fundies....

[CatWoman]

31. fine. will she get the fuck off my tv now?????

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. Not until she's healed you :)

[CatWoman]

75. OMG!!! Now I'm speaking in tongues!!!!

[H2O Man]

54. SSSssshhhh!!!!

The right reverend Jerry Falwell is speaking about Ashley right now! I can't hear him with your ranting! This is important!

[Blue_Roses]

56. no, please tell me not

Falwell. Why do they have to put him on to ruin this story.
Geeze...

[H2O Man]

61. Because you and I

are not capable of understanding this without his divine interpretation. I think that we need to send him our money, too.

[Blue_Roses]

69. they would have to pry the last penny out of my dead hands

before I would giving that lying, bigot any money and at the rate this administration is going trying to sink us all, that's all I probably will have left is one penny!

[Catherine Vincent]

89. LOL!

[SoCalDem]

49. Jesus intervened again

:)

[ultraist]

72. They will milk that religious angle for every last drop

The fact is, she manipulated him by "earning his trust" and using her bible. I would use any means, religion, or whatever to do the same if I had been in her situation, so I don't fault her for that, but, this was NOT an act of "God."

What this woman did, shows how powerful religion is in manipulating people.

[FreedomAngel82]

118. I agree

I'm a religious person myself and all that but these people take it to the EXTREME. They're just really out to convert everybody and their brother (or sister). Even if they are converted and have their own Christianity beliefs they still want you to think like them. If you aren't step and lock then you're not a real Christian. :eyes: It's pure brainwashing.

[SoCalDem]

73. she's a single mother.. where's her kid during all this??

She sounds a bit ...well.... odd .

Maybe the serenity comes from the $60K she's gonna claim.. :shrug:

[Lars39]

74. If the kid was left in the apt and then she brought Nichols

back to the apt after she had a chance to escape...:wow:

[Mistress Quickly]

77. Her daughter was at church camp

and she told Nichols if he killed her, her daughter wouldn't have a mother or father.

She made him realize she was human, put a face to it, so to speak.

I don't think she feels too bad for him either, except in the way a Christian feels bad for anyone who has strayed from God. She did say he would have to take responsibility for his actions.

[LisaL]

82. How can he possibly take responsibility for his actions?

He killed 4 people. Nothing can bring them back.

[Mistress Quickly]

99. Um, of course not

but what should have happened? Should he have killed himself? Had the cops kill him? He can take responsibility by taking the punishment meted out to him for his crimes.

He'll probably get a death sentence anyway. It is GA. They've already killed, oops, I mean lethally injected, 2 this year.

[ultraist]

97. "She made him realize she was human."

Another behavior he exhibited that does NOT indicate sociopathy. Sociopaths don't care about humanity. They are without empathy. Consider how the BTK killer treated his victims. He had no concern whatsoever that he was killing childrens' mothers.

They also do not take any responsibility for their behaviors. He seemed to when he turned himself in.

It will be interesting to hear more about his background and how he lived his life prior to this episode.

[LisaL]

98. BTK was only mean to his victims. To the rest of the world, he

was a perfectly nice, law abiding person.

[ultraist]

119. I bet he broke a lot of laws

Who knows what he did to some of those animals he caught or what he did when he was in the military.

Sociopaths appear normal but they engage in antisocial behaviors. They have no regard for societal rules or laws. There is no question the BTK killer is a sociopath. His front, to blend in, is not who he really is.

[silvermachine]

143. Conflicting stories...

...about BTK. To some, he seemed nice and normal. But many others have stated he had a hair-trigger temper that could go off and on at will. Also he was an anal-retentive neat freak, control freak, obsessed by details and minutae.

[LisaL]

81. The kid was somewhere else. In fact, Nichols let her go so

she could see the kid.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

104. What Kind of a Crack Is That?

She did a great thing, and IMO she deserves the $60k.

DTH

[SoCalDem]

132. I think she deserves it as well.. I just wondered why her daughter

did not live with her.. It seemd like she had a big enough apartment..
Cnn "bimbo" said her daughter lived with a "close family relative:eyes: )...and it struck me as odd that she would have had her husband murdered, and not have her small daughter living with her./.

When I wrote that post I also dod not know that SHE FOLLOWED HIM IN HER CAR when he ditched the truck he had stolen.. She HAD HER CELL PHONE and was in a different vehicle, and yet she dhoce not to call the police. He would have never known it, and you can bet your last dollar that the cops would have been there in a heartbeat,.

This whole thing has something "odd" to it..

[Silverhair]

87. Smith lost her husband to murder 4 years earlier.

Her husband died in her arms after being stapped. That this woman retained the composure to do what she did is great. She got him to surrender peacefully. She is a real hero, shows what real Christians are supposed to be like.

[okieinpain]

95. I'll agree to that.

[Catherine Vincent]

91. Should she get the $60,000 reward?

On CNN:

Should former hostage Ashley Smith receive the $60,000 reward offered for the capture of the Atlanta courthouse shooting suspect?

Yes or No

[LisaL]

93. Well, definitely. They had no leads until she called them, I think.

[Blue_In_AK]

133. Absolutely she should get the reward, no question.

[okieinpain]

94. actually, maybe god did push him her way. I'm more then happy

to tell you that miracles do happen. he could have pick someone else, who would have panicked and we would be talking about him killing additional people.

I believe in god, and I believe that there is a devil. proof I have none, but my faith. I know that' not popular around here but I love you guy's anyway.

Mr. nichols is a perfect example of someone who gets in over their heads with pride and anger. but once you can get somewhere and calm down, the other side of you can be heard. I normally, would scream for the death penalty for this guy, but he showed that under all the shit, there is a human in there also.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

103. It's Sad When Someone Takes a Heroic and Marvelous Act

And bizarrely finds a way to turn it into an axe to grind against Christianity.

DTH

[RubyDuby in GA]

105. I find it sad when someone takes a "heroic and marvelous act"

and bizarrely finds a way to turn it into a propaganda tool for the Christian Right.

But maybe that's just me :shrug:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

106. Sadly, It's Not Just You

There are lots of anti-Christian people who are overreacting similarly here.

She sounds like a good woman who kept her head and did a great thing. I have nothing but praise for her.

DTH

[RubyDuby in GA]

108. Well good for you and I hope you understand

that I don't have a problem with that woman or her faith. My problem is with the Atlanta Journal & Constitution and the television media here in Atlanta covering nothing but her story of god helping her bring this dangerous criminal to justice.

There are a lot of tin foil theories in the above thread, and everyone's entitled to their say. I'm just saying I have a major problem with them taking this angle and reporting it as fact.

I know, I know.......damn me to hell.

[Silverhair]

149. How is it a propaganda tool for the Christian RIGHT??

To my knowledge she has not said a thing about whether she is a Democrat or a Republican. Are you saying that a person can not be a Christian and a Democrat too? Is being an atheist a requirement to be a Democrat?

I seem to remember that the Christian Left was rather active in the Vietnam War and during Reagan's Central American adventures.

[fob]

109. After seeing/hearing the story I said outloud, "The fundies are gonna

LOOOVVEEEE this", but just as quickly as the words left my lips the next story was about the church shooting in Wisconsin and a promo for a BTK story.

NOTE: For those who seem to think there is church-bashing going on here. My internal disgust is not for the individual people who were so affected in each/all of these stories (bad guys excepted) but for the MEDIA WHORES who will look past the obvious to tell their own version of said stories, spun to the Wth* degree.

[Jesus Saves]

126. A good example of Christianity and people are bashing her?

I don't get it.

[noonwitch]

145. I don't get it either, I think she did exactly what Jesus would have done

She treated him like a human being.

[Red State Rebel]

147. Welcome newbie

Get used to it.

[Silverhair]

148. Simple. Many people here hate Christianity so much that they

will not accept any story that puts any Christian in a positive light.

[TrustingDog]

128. It's all fishy. Especially since Gawdswilla stomped to town on this story.

and like someone else said in this thread, if the Mess Media is selling it to this extent, means there's some snake oil involved. Trust no one.

[alfredo]

137. Her tearless crying and the way she brings up her husband's

death seemed fishy to me. She used the same inflection each time. It seemed studied.

Something stinks.

[mtnsnake]

139. She's held hostage for 7 hrs, yet the media sensationalizes the 7 seconds

where she read to him from the bible and that best-selling book as being her saving grace from a cold-hearted murderer. Gimme a break. I'm not saying she doesn't deserve high marks for staying alive, but to attribute it to a small religious part of those 7 hours where she was held hostage is ridiculous. If they're gonna report it right, then they should report what went on in their discussions of the entire time of the ordeal between them, including the non-religious discussions. I'm sure they didn't talk religion for 7 hours.