Raise Gas Prices Now!

[K to the YLE]

The other day I was driving along thinking (it's a 2 hour drive I make every few days) and I realized that for now socialism is not gonna work and in order for anything to change in this country you need it to hurt in peoples wallets since that is how our society keeps score and measures success. A few months ago I was having a discussion with my older sister, a, for lack of a better term, yuppie. I mentioned in the conversation that I thought gas prices should be at least double, perhaps triple the price. I hadn't given it much thought until the drive the other night. Why shouldn't gas be 5, 6, even 7 dollars a gallon?

Commuting.
The most obvious problem would be at the gas pump, I work at a full service gas station I know how much people pay for gas...but if people are paying 40 at 2/ gallon...would they still pay 120 at 6 a gallon? Of the hundreds of cars models in production today, how many are hybrids? 5? If gas were dramatically more expensive consumers would DEMAND more fuel efficient vehicles, and manufacturers would have to comply to stay competitive.

Industry.
Now, the next thing I though about was shipping. If shipping became 3 times more expensive it would force a number of positive changes. First manufacturers would have to cut down the weight and size of their products. In most cases the easiest way to accomplish this would be to reduce any wasteful packaging and excessive materials. This would reduce weight (less gas used) and volume (more products in a shipment, less shipments, less gas used.) Another impact of industry, manufacturing would have to be more spread out so less distance would have to be covered when delivering. Lastly, locally produced products would now have a more level playing field.

Heat/ Electricity
Much like commuting, more efficient methods would start to gain momentum and people would start conserving more. Turning off lights or turning down the thermostat and putting on a sweater. Housing materials would have to be reconsidered something with better insulation would become more popular.

These are just ideas, but I really would like to get some feedback and suggestions. An obvious question is who gets all the extra income, because their Will be a LOT of income. I see it as a split between local and federal governments for the upkeep of road, fund alternative fuel research and education. I certainly don't think oil companies should see much of it, maybe some to compensate for lower sales and unfortunately, inevitable lay offs. I have been trying to play devil's advocate with this trying to find a major problem, and besides the fact it is a hard sell I think it's got potential. Let me know what you think. Peace. Kyle

[TheModernTerrorist]

1. well...

if this country weren't controlled by natural resource corporations (ie- oil, gas, etc) it may work... it WOULD force people to carpool/bus/bike to places they need to go, but a staggering increase might do more immediate harm than good. I DO think it could be ratcheted up a bit, but I think people will start feeling the pinch soon. As soon as I can save enough money for a new car, I'm gonna get somethign that is decently fuel-efficient... whether it's a hybrid, or jsut a really fuel-efficient car.

[K to the YLE]

7. afterthoughts

With gas prices going up slowly it lets people get used to it and bitch about it, but not do anything. I know it is not something the public will love (or even listen to at first) but it is worth getting the idea out there. Most people would never consider that gas prices aren't high enough, but perhaps given information about the benefits of higher gas prices they may reconsider. Also, the staggering amount of income the government could hypothetically make from this could improve everyones lives even more. Hey, PETA isn't gonna turn the world vegan, but that doesn't mean they don't try to inform the public of the consequences of their actions. As far as a country controlled by the energy companies, we are still a democracy (well...) and votes and voices still count for something. Little things can have impacts too! Next time you hear someone bitch about the price of gas, or how much it cost them to fill up their behemoth, mention to them that you think the gas prices are actually too low, and tell them why you think an drastic increase in prices would be good for the country. Kyle

[mike_c]

2. I agree with everything you said....

Great post. Food prices would rise dramatically, but on the other hand, small, local producers might become economically viable again.

[lostinacause]

9. How would small local producers become economically viable?

[mike_c]

10. if the cost of transporting cheap industrially farmed food...

...rises enough, local small producers might regain a market edge, both because the cost of industrial farming would rise (energy dependence) and the cost of local market delivery would be substantially lower. Just a thought, however.

[rndmprsn]

14. wouldn't the increased energy costs affect them as well...

for feed, nutes, tractors, farm, house etc...

[lostinacause]

20. Bigger companies can test and implement new technologies more effectively.

I agree with you. There is no obvious way that smaller originations would face a better situation.

[BiggJawn]

16. WHAT "small, local producers"?

You must be one of those people who have NO idea what route your food takes to get to the Shop Till Ya Drop.

Up here, we produce meat (gasp! how UNKIND!) corn, soybeans and melons. Oh, some wheat, too. Real balanced diet going on there, right?

Also, our family farms have been long since replaced by huge agribusiness concerns. Our "local producers" are nothing more than property managers for the likes of ConAgra and ADM.

And just WHAT do you propose for these "Small Producers" to use for the energy to produce their crops and move them to market? Horses? Mules? Newsflash: the days of farmers wearing out a few women producing 12-14 farmhands is long past. Farm families are no larger than the families Latte-suckers are raising these days.

food prices would "rise dramatically"...Boy, is THAT ever the fucking UNDERSTATEMENT of the day!

[mike_c]

19. yeah, I see your point....

We have lots of small farms around my area of NorCal, but the overwhelming majority of our food is trucked in from the central valley, Mexico, and elsewhere. In many ways the national economy that cheap transportation costs has made possible has utterly destroyed local agricultural economies. We used to have a vibrant fishing industry here on the north coast, but it has been wrecked-- pretty completely-- partly by over exploitation, itself driven by having national and international markets, but mostly by the global market for timber. Timber operations have dramatically impacted salmonid fish habitats and have contributed to wreaking a once vibrant local food producing industry.

[BiggJawn]

26. We have other veggies here, but...

It's still gonna require transportation to bring it all togther, and some form of energy, not muscle power to produce it on a scale to feed everyone.

Salmon. I've seen it move from a delicacy to an "everyday" fish, thanks to factory farming. Of course, I think farmed salmon tatses like crap, and all those antibiotics and dyes can't be good for the consumer...But again, without a fast transportation network, just how much Salmon can folks who live 40 miles or less from the farm eat in one week?

Some of these folks who have this romantic mental image of the "Bucolic Life Before Corporations" are ingnoring the down-side. Stuff like Scurvy, other vitamin deficiencies, disease, drafty log cabins, wood fires to heat and cook with, and the fact that most people were lucky if they saw they 50th birthday. Never mind that yesteryear's populations were a FRACTION of what they are now....

Hey! THAT would fix Shrubbya's Social Security problem, wouldn't it? Only the Wealthy would live long enough to collect!

[The Doctor.]

50. A 50% rise in oil prices will have catastophic effects.

Companies are more likely to lay off workers than spend resources finding 'better ways' to do things.

When the loyalty is to the stockholders, the only type of solutions big companies come up with are short term ones.

We invaded Iraq to Keep Saddam from trading oil for Euros, because if oil becomes fixed to the Euro our economy will collapse.

The Great Depression will look like a picnic.

The good news; After 20 years of very bad times, the 'emergency' socialist measures we are forced to adopt will eventually bail us back out.

After that we can look forward to REAL economic policies and oversight regarding large (and small) corporations.

If US companies are Forced to hire US workers and pay decent wages, we could rebuild the economy.
As they outsource and layoff Americans, the economy crumbles and does eventually take their own bottom line with it.

They are too short-sighted for their own good.

Only Nuclear Fusion will save us now...

[DrGonzoLives]

29. Eh?

So, for large cities, who are those small, local producers? You're also assuming that there are small, local producers who will be available to start providing food.

Of course, farm equipment needs gas, you need gas to get to the store to buy seed, feed, and supplies (not to mention stuff you need to, you know, survive), you need gas to bring the food to market...etc....

[mike_c]

46. don't worry, I didn't mean to suggest that local food production...

...was in any way capable of meeting local food demands in most places, just that WHERE it still functions, high transportation costs for industrial farm products distribution would even the playing field a bit.

[jayctravis]

3. Solar panels. All across the desert.

[dweller]

4. check this out

http://www.nanosolar.com/


dp

[Deja Q]

5. That'll help, but transportation is our biggest need for oil.

And many of the components used to build the batteries and other components require oil to make them.

Ditto for solar panels.

Either way, oil will not be cheap.

[lostinacause]

23. Wind power seems much more viable.

The technology they have is impressive. I haven’t heard of similar investments in solar. Wind power is generally has a lower cost of land so as a large scale solution it looks to provide more promise.

[ashmanonar]

6. i agree in theory with your idea:

but what happens when the oil companies get the idea that people are getting used to the price? it'll keep going up.

as someone above said: if our country wasn't run by the energy concerns, this could work. until then, i don't see it happening.

[BrewerJohn]

8. Put the actual social costs of using fossil fuel on the price line

and we'll see positive change, absolutely. The only problem is that it will never happen through government policy, so the excess income, when it happens, won't go to anything besides profit. Also, it might not happen in time for the changes to make enough of a difference before all the ill effects of oil dependence catch up with us. But I like the idea, let's keep talking about it.

[ComerPerro]

11. Yeah. Proposing ideas like that will ensure Republican control forever

Lets see...

Democrats want to raise your gas prices.

Political suicide. I sympathize with what you are saying, but this idea will really hurt a lot of people.

[Enquiringkitty]

12. Several things you left out...

More poor and elderly people would freeze to death each year due to lack of funds to pay for the higher fuel prices (We already have many deaths each years).

All services which take the disabled and elderly to doctor visits and such wouldn't be able to raise enough money to keep the services going so those people would have to do without health visits...might lead to more deaths.

People who have several children and can't afford anything but an old car would have a hard time taking their kids to school and to check-ups not to mention getting back and forth to their minimum wage jobs so something would have to be left off. Work would be a priority so the kids would just have to stay sick....Who cares...look at all of the savings!

All of this would rid our society of the dead weight who isn't pulling their weight anyway...as long as things get more efficient and money is saved....let's just not think about the people who wouldn't survive the changes. Give me a break!

Look at all of the social impacts first the effects on all people before saying if an idea is good or bad.

[Mojorabbit]

13. Perhaps

some of those profits could be used to pick up the slack for the elderly and lower income. Better than not doing anything.

[DrGonzoLives]

30. Yeah, that'll happen

n/t

[bigtree]

15. my gas bill has already tripled

why don't you send me the money to make my house more energy efficient?

While you're at it, why don't you send along some more for my new gas efficient car to replace my mid-sized truck?

Don't worry about all of the goods being transported, we'll all pay for those at the store.

[Bridget Burke]

17. The reality--those with less power will suffer more....

If we had smart, decent people in charge, the good things you say would come to pass. In fact, they'd already have been in the works. New sources of power, more efficient use of power, etc.

With the Republicans in charge, the poor will suffer. Especially the working poor who live in areas with bad transit systems & long commutes. They can't just go out & buy hybrids. (Of course, many will have no commutes after losing their jobs.) Things will get more & more expensive.

The rich & powerful will become more rich & powerful.

[BiggJawn]

18. I read the perfect response to you the other day.

You're so focused on ONE tree (raising the retail price of gasoline) that you're ignoring the REST of the forest (price increases on everything else)

you're really short-sighted.

You must think food moves to the market by magic levitation or something.

Let me tell ya something, in the past year or so, since gasoline has doubled, I've seen my weekly expense for food, soap, and toilet paper rise from around $35 to 55-65 dollars every week...In that same time frame, my salary has increased 2%

How much more do you think that's gonna go up if gasoline gets to "5, 6, even 7 dollars a gallon"?

YOU may be able to absorb a 100-200-300% increase in essentials like food, water, heat and lights, but some of us can't.

Big fucking lot of difference it's gonna make in shit if I'm not spending money on gasoline, just to have the OTHER expenses of living drive me into destitution...

[Heddi]

25. Thank YOU!

Not all of us live in big cities where a bus is only 5 minutes away. Not all of us have the economic resources to just 'eat' the increase not just in gas, but in food, rent, housing, EVERYTHING.

And there's alot of people in this country that are alot poorer than I am that would surely die--literally---if any of the proposals were to be implemented.

But I guess a few million folks freezing solid in January is the price we have to pay to get people to realize that gas COULD be higher. Or something....

[BiggJawn]

27. Venti Grande Lattis must muddle the mind.

Even if you DO live in a big city where everything's a 5-minute bus ride away, do they think prices won't go up?

How about RENT? You pay $750 for a 3-room flat now, what do you do when your landlord informs you it's gonna go to $2,700 a month. Can't pay it? Too fucking bad, he's got a waiting list of people who've dumped their McMansions out in the burbs for some place closer to the office just JUMPING to get that price.

Everything gets more expensive, what to do, what to do....

Guess the Law Offices of Ken Nunn could specialize in Indenture Agreements....

[Heddi]

31. Completely right on the mark

When I lived in Seattle, I loved being able to take the bus everywhere. It was nice for me because my job subsidized my bus pass, making each round-trip (that would normally cost $1.50 each way) come out to about $0.10 for the entire DAY. Not bad.

Of course, I was lucky because my job DID pay for bus passes, and I worked a normal 9-5'er, and was within a 45 minute ride to my job.

My husband used to bike to work, then bought a motorcycle. That was cheap gas for sure!

But we paid for the convenience of living so close to downtown by paying $860 for a 1br apartment that is literally 1/4 the size of the rental house I have now that I pay $535 for (and it's 2br, with a yard). Of course, I also live in Ruraltown USA, where the bus service runs from 9am to 6pm and as a female traveling alone, I'd rather be jobless than ride those rape-mobiles that go for busses. Serioulsy. I rode one bus here, once, during the middle of the day, and was so scared out of my mind by the man who felt it was his perfect right to grope me IN FULL VIEW OF THE BUS DRIVER---and when I notified the bus driver that I had to get off this bus NOW, he replied "wait until we come to a designated stop, ma'am".

Sorry---that tidbit aside.

The reality is that it's expensive to live in the City, and it's ineffective to live in the country. In the city, you can live close to your job, but at a much higher price. You can have public transport, but at an expense. In the country, you don't live close to anything and there is no public transport, but you can live for cheap.

Of course nothing gets me as much as the OP's desire to have heating fuel costs rise--yeah, that's a GREAT way to get your point across. This winter, we had a very light winter and it only got down to 0 a few days this year. Although we did have about 8 inches of snow on the ground. But I'm supposed to suck it up and live in freezing conditions.

And what about people, who like me, already live in houses and can't afford to rent or buy a NEW house with BETTER insulation? My house was built in the 1930's and I swear it's insulated with a triple layer of Charmin.

So not only am I supposed to break myself by paying more for gas and groceries and utilities, but I'm supposed to freeze in the winter and rent a new-construction house that most likely will cost 4x's what I'm paying in rent now.

And the point of all of this was to....??

[BiggJawn]

44. The Point?

Why, the point of this exercise is to raise your awareness of "Peak Oil" and explore ways to conserve, conserve, conserve...

Not that us folks who are barely sitting on the doorstep of the lower-middle-class don't know anything about squeezing a nickel until it barks, anyway...

Oh, I almost forgot-This is also supposed to make Detroit get off the 4X4 Penis-Augmentor kick and bring us an updated, rubber-band-powered version of the BMW "Isetta". never mind that they'll just revert back to the same business model they had in 1904, i.e. making hand-built "motor-carriages" for the obscenely wealthy...

I swear, some people seem to be so smart, they're stupid.
I work at a University, I should know....

[Heddi]

45. Squeeze a nickel til it barks --- oh brother AMEN!

I got a surprise check in the mail the other day for $20.

That fucking $20 lasted for THREE WEEKS.

Make a nickel bark? Oh god....them pennies were screaming for mercy by the time I got done with them.

I guess my problem with the "solutions" posted above is that they're all at the EXPENSE of lower income folks.

WE get to freeze in the winter because somehow, that'll make them rich fat-cats learn a thing or two about conservation---although it hasn't since there are ALWAYS elderly and poor who die from the cold every winter, and elderly and poor who die from the heat in the summer...but if only a few MORE would die..>THEN...THEN we could make a difference.

Detroit has had the technology to make more fuel efficient cars for YEARS but they refuse to. So making old people freeze in the winter (and poor people and young people and good people and bad people) is somehow going to WAKE UP THE AUTO INDUSTRY....well, why haven't they awoken before now?

It's kind of like the arguments that we should PRESERVE the right to abortion by allowing Roe V Wade to be overturned because THEN the republicans will see how short-sighted it is and THEY'LL reinstate RvW...although the millions of women who will be forced into childbirth, or who will suffer horrendous complications due to untrained and unregulated abortions...why, they're just 'collateral damage'

Even living in an agricultural-rich area like I do, fruit and veggie prices are going up year by year. Roma tomatoes, locally grown, are $1.99/lb---which is better than it was in December, when we were having to buy the ones shipped from Florida & Mexico and paying $3.49/lb.

So not only will you have the lower and middle class struggling to make ends meet even MORE because they're spending $8 a gallon on gas, and $300 a month on heating bills, BUT you're going to pay even MORE at the grocery store...pay more to GET TO the grocery store.

Yeah. Yeah. That's the ticket. Create even MORE poverty. That'll learn them republicuns.....

[K to the YLE]

47. To set the record straight.

I live in a extremely rural town in Western Maine with no public transportation system at all and as far as weather goes it frequently gets below zero and we have gotten close to 100" of snow this year. So, as much as you may like to think so, I am not some wealthy, latte drinking, oblivious snob. I'm a 24 year old kid working my way through school pumping gas and wrenching on cars, trying to make ends meet. So don't sit there telling me I am living in a fantasyland. peace, Kyle

[Heddi]

51. So then why are you proposing situations

that would affect you just as badly as the other working poor in this country?

You talk about "what would they think if gas was $6 a gallon?" well, most people would probably shit in their pants and do whatever had to be done to KEEP PAYING $6 a gallon for gas and still get to work, still by food, still pay utilities and rent and all that other shit.

You talk about raising fuel costs--hello....fuel costs are already high. What is raising those going to do other than make the poorest of us suffer more, the middle class shrink to lower class, and the rich echelons of society sit back with their high gas bills (yet warm houses) laughing and crying crocodile tears about those poor, poor unfortunate souls who are dying this harsh winter...here, honey...let's send them some old socks.

I never said you were living in a fantasyland, but you are having the lower rungs of society pay DEARLY for some need to teach the 'rich' that there needs to be better CAFE standards, or lower gas prices or more conservation or something. I'm not sure what your point is, but you certainly make sure that the working poor in this country get the brunt end of the stick.

[K to the YLE]

52. a few more things.

"You talk about raising fuel costs--hello....fuel costs are already high."

Actually, compared to the rest of the globe we aren't doing to bad. These prices are close to a year old, and I doubt many have gone down.
(source: CNN/Money: Gas Prices Around the World, http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/)
Gas prices around the world

Nation
City
Price

AUSTRALIA
SYDNEY
$2.63

AUSTRIA
VIENNA
$4.50

AZERBAIJAN
BAKU
$1.15

CAMBODIA
PHNOM PENH
$2.57

CHINA
TIANJIN
$1.54

CHINA
SHANGHAI
$1.48

CROATIA
ZAGREB
$4.32

DENMARK
COPENHAGEN
$5.08

GEORGIA
TBILISI
$2.31

GERMANY
FRANKFURT
$5.29

HONG KONG
HONG KONG
$5.62

ITALY
ROME
$4.86

JAPAN
TOKYO
$3.84

KAZAKHSTAN
ALMATY
$1.36

KAZAKHSTAN
ATYRAU
$1.35

KOREA
SEOUL
$4.71

KOREA
KOJE/OKPO
$4.53

LAOS
VIENTIANE
$1.66

NORWAY
STAVANGER
$5.07

NORWAY
OSLO
$4.93

PORTUGAL
LISBON
$4.80

RUSSIA
MOSCOW
$1.45

SWITZERLAND
GENEVA
$4.56

TAIWAN
TAIPEI
$2.47

TAJIKISTAN
DUSHANBE
$1.32

THAILAND
BANGKOK
$1.60

TURKEY
ISTANBUL
$4.85

UK
TEESIDE
$5.64

UK
MILFORD HAVEN
$5.56

UK
READING
$5.56

UK
NORWICH
$5.54

VENEZUELA
CARACAS
$0.14

Yeah, there are a few places lower than the U.S of A; China (communist), Kazakhstan (oil is a main export), Laos, Thailand, Russia, and Venezuela (14 cents?!) but for the most part we are on the lower end of things.

Also, I am not the only fool to suggest raising gas prices check this out:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5080-2004May31.html

and if you don't feel like it here are a few quotes...

Ford chief executive William Clay Ford Jr. explained: "Every place else we operate, fuel prices are very high relative to here and customers get used to it, but they get used to it by having a smaller vehicle, a more efficient vehicle." GM's chief executive, Rick Wagoner, agreed: "If you want people to consume something less, the simplest thing to do is price it more dearly."

Last week, premium gas prices in Europe were averaging more than double the U.S. level of $2.24 a gallon -- with prices at the pump averaging $5.07 a gallon in France, $5.36 in Germany and $5.59 in Britain. European consumers inevitably have demanded more efficient cars.

Finally...after reading more about increasing gas prices and rereading my initial post, I would like to amend my position. I got a little overzealous. I am going to retract my position on heating and electricity. I propose a higher gasoline tax. Gasoline defined as what you put in your car to make it go. peace, Kyle

[BiggJawn]

53. So we stay warm, but still starve to death.

Another dumb-assed idea. What you gonna do next, say "OK, OK, No artificially high taxes on truck and train fuel!" Stop changing the rules of the game. You're starting to sound like an Administration lackey.

While you were researching all those foreign gasoline prices, did you happen to look up average incomes in those countries?
How about the coverage of mass transit in those countries?

How much is your grease monkey job worth in Germany?

What would YOU do, kyle, if you had to pay higher fuel prices? Borrow your mom's car and not fill it up?

I don't have a mom who's car I can borrow.

[DrGonzoLives]

28. Well done

I get a little tired of these yahoos around here who have little to no connection with reality.

As for more efficient vehicles - how many people can run out today and buy a new car, anyway? Not a whole lot. I make $52,000 a year and can't afford a new hybrid right now.

But yeah, raise prices on gas, and it will be worse than the Great Depression.

[Strelnikov_]

33. But But But Inflation Isn't Supposed To be On The March!!!

(I have observed the same. The grocery bill is about 20-30% higher in the last year).

[blm]

21. A few years back Dick Cheney said it'd be good if gas was way higher.

Odd that you would try to attach higher gas prices to socialism. I doubt that socialism was Cheney's reasoning.

They intend to squeeze every buck they can out of the working class, no matter what.

[KharmaTrain]

22. Reshuffle Your Deck A Bit

I understand your concept that the higher the fuel costs, the more people won't waste it, but that doesn't really work and discriminates against those who need the energy for basic necessities.

May I throw out a more equitable situation...and one that prohbits the massive windfalling to the large oil corporations that your proposal would also include. I'd have the price of oil regulated based on international standard...then to raise the taxes on a gallon; specifically earmarking this money directly to various local and county agencies. Do not go to Washington, go right to Main Street...thus whatever cost increases will go to benefit the local infrastructure.

I wouldn't give a dime to the federal...or even the state as once this money leaves your area, it rarely returns...and I'm tired of having my tax dollars subsidize GOOP pork barrel follies and this illegal and immoral war.

[K to the YLE]

49. Thank You.

Hey KharmaTrain, thank for your insight and constructive criticism (rather than just telling me what a moron I am for suggesting this.) The purpose of this post was because I knew their were some kinks to work out and I wanted to get other people's suggestions, such as your thoughts on having increased taxes stay in local and county offices. That is the type of thing I was looking for, not "you're really short-sighted. You must think food moves to the market by magic levitation or something." So thanks KharmaTrain, for some input I can use. peace, Kyle

[Heddi]

24. Wow. So just fuck people like me that live in rural communities

where I CANNOT ride share with anyone because I don't live close to anyone. There *IS* no public transportation where I live.

It gets in the negatives in the winter and in the 100's in the summer...but I should just bite it and freeze/sweat to death, right? (Growing up in SC, I know about hot summers--those wouldn't bother me so much, but when it's so cold that your front door freezes shut and the condensation INSIDE the house starts to freeze on teh windows...that's a bit harder to swallow).

I'm a full-time student. So is my husband. WE have our bills figured out to the PENNY. We budget like mad, hardly drive, never turn on the heat unless we can see our breath in the house.

We buy responsibly, we shop responsibly, and we live as responsibly as we can.

But to FUCK a large majority of people in this country to 'show them' a thing or two about gas prices is just insane.

The area I live in is very rual, very economically depressed, very high rate of unemployment. The livlihood of our valley is dependent upon agricultural exports--to seattle, to spokane, to portland and beyond.

Already we have a drought season ahead of us---many farmers are being encouraged to let their crops go this year and give their water and irrigation rights to other farmers and get paid for that ($300 an acre). No crops growing in the fields means no employment for people whose livlihood COMES from the extended growing season---no money for fruit pickers, packers, plant workers, drivers AND the families of these workers who are absolutely dependent upon that money.

When no local produce is to be had, people in my area end up paying MORE for things like tomatoes, apples, pears, cherries--things that are normally grown here and sold for rock-bottom prices---but if they're not grown here, they have to be transported in from elsewhere---that's increased prices for ME and MY NEIGHBORS_--all of whom are just scraping by as it is.

We need to make changes, no doubt---but not at the expense of the poor and working poor in this country---THOSE are the ones who are affected most by your proposals.

Sorry---I'm not about to say "Oh! Just freeze whydon'tcha" in the hopes that the rich and powerful in this country get their shit together and make energy-efficient solutions we all can live with.

Sorry. I'm not that callous, and I'm a bit selfish as it is. I'm not going to freeze to promote some "progressive" social experiment. I'm not going to force a parent (either single parent household or double) to have to quit their only job because they can't afford $8/gallon gas.

Not everywhere in this country has public transport. Not everywhere in this country is "bikable". Not everywhere is "ride-sharable".

You're focusing, I think, on large cities where there are other options. Not out here in Rural America, USA. The nearest town to where I live is 35 miles away---You gonna bike that, uphill both ways, when it's snowing and there's 8 inches on the ground and another 4 expected by noon? Well, you might, but I suppose the rest of us should, no?

[Strelnikov_]

35. If I Lived At A Location That Required Daily Commuting

of any distance, I would be getting out there today and buying a fuel efficient car (new, used, whatever you can afford), before there is a 5 year waiting list.

I think we are going to hit $4.00/gal. at least this summer, without political events.

If Our Leader decides to have freedom march on Iran, there will most likely be gas rationing.

All signs are that Peak Oil has arrived early.

[Heddi]

36. Well, I can't move, and I can't afford a new car

My husband and I live where we do because we were accepted at a school here--can't be picky when your degree-of-choice has a 2-year MINIMUM wait list at every other school in the fucking state.

And since we're both students, we are limited on funds. No new car for me..hybrid or otherwise.

My car is fuel efficient. I have a mazda protege that gets about 30mpg.

Any other unrealistic solutions you have for me, and millions of people in my situation?

I know you're not suggesting that people who live in rural communities, by any large stretch, are affluent? The city I live in has about a 24% unemployment rate. Wages are low and jobs are hard to come by. The majority of people in my town are uninsured---they can't even pay for basic medical services, but they should just jump right up and move away AND buy a new car while they're at it

Where would you suggest I move? Back to Seattle---where rents are 5x's what they are out here? I pay $535 for a 2.5 br house. This house, in Seattle, even in the GRIMIEST parts of the city would rent for NO LESS than $1200 a month.

Move to the city where things are even MORE expensive? Where I"d waste MORE fuel by sitting in trafic and where driving 10 miles down the road takes, on average, 30 minutes?

There are no easy solutions. Saying "move" or "buy a new car" is completely ignoring the financial reality that myself and MILLIONS of other Americans face.

Oh, if it were just so easy...move...buy a new car....oh I've had my laugh for the day

...I mean, YOU're going to pay my increased rent, right? YOU'RE going to support me while I wait 2+ years MINIMUM to get into a nursing program in Seattle, right? YOU'RE going to buy that new car for me, right?

I thought so.

[Strelnikov_]

39. I'm Sorry You Took My Suggestion As An Insult To The Poor

You did seem to read a lot more into my simple opinion that people would be advised to move to a fuel efficient car than I could have ever imagined.

And I did say "used, whatever you can afford".

If you believe, like I do, that gas will be skyrocketing in price in the near future, would it not be prudent to sell the 10 yr. old 14 mpg SUV and place the money in a used, more fuel efficient car, like you currently have.

As for places to live, rural areas are probably the place to be in the coming crises. The last place I would want to be is an energy starved city.

[Heddi]

41. You made this response to my post

If I Lived At A Location That Required Daily Commuting of any distance, I would be getting out there today and buying a fuel efficient car (new, used, whatever you can afford), before there is a 5 year waiting list.

That was in response to my post where I described living in a rural community with no public transportation and no way to commute since distances were so far apart.

And I do appologize--I misread "getting out there today" as getting out OF there today. So I do appologize for misreading you as suggesting that I move out of my community.

But my basic premise still stands that not everyone CAN get a fuel efficient car. Most of the gas-hogging beaters I see driven around here every day are driven by poor families that can buy a 78 Buick for $500....even if they run up $1,000 in repairs a year, they get what they can afford.

Also, living in a rural mountain area, there is a definite need for SUV's (though, not Hummers and their ilk). We get ALOT of snow in the winter, and there are treacherous mountains all around us. I feared for my life the one time we drove to Seattle in our little front-wheel drive and nearly skidded down an icy mountain pass---backwards.

We live in a farming community. There is a need for trucks and other not-the-best fuel efficient vehicles. It takes a truck to haul bushells of apples. It takes a truck to do alot of the farming work.

Unlike SEattle, were I saw more SUV's than I ever saw in my life for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON. It's hilly...but not snowy. It rains...but if my Mazda can make it up the hill with no problem, I see no reason why one needs an Escalade to make it from Bellevue and back.

I always used to tell my husband that the Rich East-Siders got SUV's in the unlikely event that they decided to go off-roading spur-of-the-moment on the way back from the mall.

[tammywammy]

38. You know, I also live about 27 miles from work

But I live with my parents, I'm saving to purchase a more fuel efficient car, and really I can't afford to move out right now. So I'm also fucked.
I guess I could quit going to college each morning, because well, we don't have public transportation. And I could quit my job, where I get paid well for what I do, get benefits, and overall, have a great employer. So I guess I could get a job working at the grocery store about a 10 min walk away, where I can get paid minimum wage and no benefits, and work for a horrible corporation.
And that will push my hopefully next year purchase of a more fuel efficient car further into the future. (Though my car now, gets about 27-30 miles/gallon.) And also, I'll just be living at home with my parents forever, because I really won't be able to afford to get an apartment.
But then, I wouldn't be driving.

[Strelnikov_]

54. Just A Simple Suggestion That Now Would Be A Good Time

to trade in the Family Truckster on whatever more fuel efficient vehicle you can afford. Before there is a run on such.

In your case, at 30 mpg, you are already 9 mpg ahead of the 'installed' base of 20.7 mpg for personal vehicles. The typical Family Truckster probably only gets 14 mpg commuting.

[Walt Starr]

32. Gasoline prices are going up no matter what anybody wants

Summer is coming, demand is rising, production is not increasing, ergo prices are going up.

Simple economics, but realize that the prices will be passed on which means transporting goods will cost more so the goods themselves will cost more.

[jswordy]

34. One of those great theories that would be a shitty reality

Vehicle efficiency -- Hybrid vehicles cost a lot more to buy and maintain than ordinary gas or diesel vehicles. Higher vehicle costs, higher maintainance costs. That's inflationary. Plus all hybrid tech is on Asian origin at present...we would have to license it to be able to use it! More inflationary costs.

Shipping -- Most goods shipped today are bulky items, ranging from vegetables to industrial parts. Packing has been reduced or even eliminated for many of these items, and what is used is lightweight. No, you can't get around it, the costs of shipping your stuff you buy would rise dramatically (just as it is now rising). That's inflationary. And you'd pay it in prices.

Manufacturing spread out? -- That would mean MORE OVERHEAD costs per widget produced, not less. It is cheaper to ship than to build, equip and staff multiple locations. That's inflationary.

Heat/electricity -- What I see happening is more of what is happening now...the have-nots bear the brunt of the cost increases, while the haves just keep on keeping on. If you live in a 5,000 SF mansion, you don't give a damn what it costs to heat it. Net result? Inflationary.

Last, let me add that while your price increases would be immediate, the ability to technologically respond to them would be much slower...which is exactly where we find ourselves now. You can "demand" more energy efficient cars, for example, but even if the tech exists, it takes years to tool up and gear up to produce them.

Note that all your "improvements" put an increasing cost burden on each rung as you go down the economic ladder. The middle and lower classes get the worst of it. That's regressive. How very Republican of you! It's basically the same thing W is doing to us with energy costs now, just more of it.

My contention is the gas ought to be about $1.20 a gallon right now, and no more. What is being seen is an effect of our trade and national deficits, which are weakening the dollar. It is NOT a supply-demand equation. Inventories are more than adequate, and have been. But what is happening is that our weak dollar is enticing investors to hedge against it by buying oil with their currencies, because oil is acting like gold and is appreciating. That is a hedge against falling dollar values. So the market is totally off the supply-demand commodity cycle, and is speculative.

But because we don't want to pay taxes, we want to buy goods with money we don't currently have, and we want to run a war and all our other government programs on the DC credit card, it simply takes more dollars to buy that barrel of crude cuz they are worth less. Of course, that spikes the price at retail, which is a boon for the oil industry cuz their actual cash profits increase even applying the same percentage of profit on higher prices. I have seen more than one article about oil companies having a difficult time figuring out how to invest (hide) all their cash reserves, to shelter them from taxes.

While you seem to think we can be forced to live within our means by higher prices, the current high prices we have have done nothing of the kind as yet. I think we need to proactively live within our means, accept higher taxes on the wealthy, and once again shoulder the burden of being good citizens instead of shirking it. Then we can shrink the defiits, begin to pay the debt down again, and boost the dollar.

Bill Clinton did it. After he and Congressional Dems raised taxes, we enjoyed 10 years of great times and government surpluses. But now? It is painfully ironic that every one of our Asian trade partners -- every single one -- enjoys a surplus, except us. They are getting richer by driving us farther into the poorhouse.

When we as a nation decide we aren't going that way again, we will begin to get back on our feet. But it will take a calamity for that to happoen. And that calamity isn't very far down the road, in my view. Our economy is propped on low interest rates and the dollar's worth. Now interest is rising, the dollar is falling, and fuel and raw materials costs -- on which everything we do is predicated -- are rising. It's very close to the Perfect Storm. We heard the first rumble of thunder from South Korea last month when that nation indicated it would pull back from buying our debt, and it nearly caused a massive selloff of greenbacks that would have propelled us into a deep recession.

Hey, everybody knows you cannot live beyond your means forever without the bank coming around to put a stop to it eventually. All I can say is, be prepared.

[Strelnikov_]

37. " . Ability to technologically respond to them would be much slower . "

A DOE study published in February notes that it would take 10-15 years before enough vehicles could be replaced to have a marked effect on the demand/supply relationship.

[Democrats_win]

40. Ironic: Enron capitalism of energy trading causing higher prices

They still claim that the idea of markets is "good" and that it will create more sources of energy. But its just like real estate, they buy and sell driving up the prices with not relation to the actual market. The traders are the ones taking the profits, not the people who really discover, develop or process our energy.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

42. kick

[LSdemocrat]

43. No, drastically raise fuel economy standards now

Car companies are fully capable of making high performance cars that get good gas mileage, but they are just lazy. Lets force them to do it without overburdening current consumers.

[The Doctor.]

48. It is more likely that we would face economic collapse. nt