Terri Schiavo Deserves the Same Rights as Ted Bundy

[deek]

WASHINGTON, March 10 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Ted Bundy, the BTK killer and others like them currently receive more protection under the law than Terri Schiavo, the Florida woman who has been sentenced to death by starvation and dehydration by the Florida Courts. However, if Congress passes "The Incapacitated Persons Legal Protection Act," they can rightfully change that. Ken Connor, Chairman of the Center for a Just Society and former legal counsel to Gov. Jeb Bush and the state of Florida in defending "Terri's Law," released the following statement:

"The outrageous outcome of court rulings surrounding this case is this -- a convicted capital felon in Florida receives more due process protection than a disabled person at risk for starvation or dehydration because they have become burdensome to their family.

"Capital felons in Florida are entitled to a trial by jury, independent counsel, competent representation and automatic review of their death penalty by the Supreme Court of Florida. By contrast, Terri Schiavo has received none of these protections. Perhaps even more ironic is the fact that if the most heinous of mass murderers were to receive a sentence of death by starvation or dehydration, the courts would overturn that sentence as a violation of the Constitution's prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.

"Although capital felons are recognized as 'persons' within the language and meaning of the constitution, it is obvious that, in the courts' view, those who share Terri Schiavo's disabilities fall outside the pale of 'personhood.' For years, disability advocates have lamented that they were not treated as 'whole persons' worthy of the full protection of the law. The courts' decisions in Bush vs. Schiavo prove they are right


more:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usnw/20050310/pl_usnw/terri_schiavo_deserves_the_same_rights_as_ted_bundy111_xml

[biftonnorton]

1. It's About Her Wishes, Nothing Else

Dang, I wish these people would catch on that it's about what Terri said she wanted in terms of medical treatment (ie, no tubes) in case she could no longer speak for herself. We can choose to believe her husband or not as he relates her wishes, and that's another issue. Supposedly Terri said she didn't want tubes. I wish they'd honor that and keep all the other issues out of it. It's like they believe that their god won't intervene if the tubes are out, but will intervene only if she's on tubes until The Miracle Recovery happens.

[deek]

5. only the fundies believe in the "Miracle Recovery"...

not the disability rights advocates.

btw...there has been testimony by a girlfriend of Terri's that is in direct conflict with MS's version of what was said

Feel free to visit DU's "Disability Issues and Activism" forum to learn what is so truly frightening about this case.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=250

edited to add link to DU Forum

[Pithlet]

17. I hope that my husband, as my legal next of kin

has more of a say than one of my girlfriends.

This is about a next of kin fighting for what his wife wanted. This has nothing to do with disability issues.

[deek]

19. Then why

all the disability advocacy groups say it does?

Don't you think disabled people would recognize this as a disability issue or not?

[Pithlet]

21. I don't think that saying it makes it so, no.

I don't believe that all disabled people have to, or even do, agree with everything that disability advocates say on this issue. I do not believe that they have a right to tell me whether or not I live like a vegetable, and whether or not my husband can make sure my wishes are followed. Because all of the things that make us who we are, our personality, our emotions, everything, is our brain. When the brain has been reduced to nothing but liquid, that goes beyond being disabled. Effectively, everything that makes you you is gone.

People who desire not to go on living in a vegetative state SHOULD be able to have that say. Why should any advocacy group say otherwise? No. This isn't about disabled rights. This is about being able to decide for oneself whether they want to live like a vegetable on life support.

[deek]

24. mythbreakers

Terri's brain is not liquid.

Terri is not a vegetable.

Terri is not on life support.

[Pithlet]

25. Nope.

Doctors have concluded that she is in a permanent vegetative state. Her husband stated she did not want to live that way. No one else, including a disability advocacy group, has the right to step in.

[deek]

27. Some doctors, not all eom

.

[Pithlet]

31. I don't care.

Because these advocacy groups could easily find a doctor who would testify for their benefit. Enough qualified doctors have said she is PVS. It was enough for the courts, who have repeatedly ruled in Michael Schiavo, her legal next of kin's favor. I do not think that these groups have a right to butt in and weaken the legal bond between husband and wife to advance their agenda. Sorry.

[Dookus]

28. mostly wrong...

Her brain is not liquid, true. It has been REPLACED by spinal fluid. But her cerebral cortex is gone.

Terri is not a vegetable. However, she is in a persistent vegetative state.

Terri most certainly IS on life-support, as defined by Florida law.

[meganmonkey]

2. Clarification - This is a PRESS RELEASE from the 'Center for a Just Societ

Not a news article per se...

[deek]

3. thanks for the clarification

.

[meganmonkey]

4. I also investigated a little

and while I couldn't find a website for the Center for a Just Society, I found this as the footnote to an editorial he wrote which I will not quote here because it made me a little nauseous ;) :

"Kenneth L. Connor served as counsel to Governor Jeb Bush in the Bush v. Schiavo case. He is chairman of the Center for a Just Society."

http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/3781.article

[deek]

6. found the website

http://www.centerforajustsociety.com/

You are right--it is a christian based site. Although I am not a christian, I can't disagree with their values re kindness to each other, honesty, truth, etc.

Another commentary by Connor I found at the site:
"Forum: Ominous implications for handicapped"

~snip

For years, advocates have lamented the disabled were not treated as "whole persons " worthy of the full protection of law. The courts in Bush vs. Schiavo have proved them right.
Any time "personhood " is withdrawn from a human being, legal protections are eroded. That is why slaves were sold like cotton or tobacco earlier in American history. It is why more than 6 million Jews were exterminated with only muted protests in Nazi Germany. It is why there have been "ethnic cleansings" in Eastern Europe. And it's why human embryos are cut up like fish bait in the name of "research " in this country today.
America's courts historically have been bulwarks of protection for those vulnerable to exploitation by the strong.

more at http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/20050205-101558-1382r.htm

I can't say that I disagree what he has written here. Do you?
(Although I am not in agreement with the "fish bait " comment)

[meganmonkey]

7. I disagree with his assumption that Schiavo is merely 'disabled',

and the rest of what he says seems to be based on that premise.

[deek]

10. that IS the main point

That most do not seem to "get". If you don't believe she is disabled,then of course the rest does not make sense.

I don't assume Terri is disabled. I know Terri is disabled.

I wish others could understand.

[meganmonkey]

18. I'm not sure you get what I meant....

I am saying she is not 'disabled'. She is brain dead.

I disagree with with pretty much everything this guy says because it is based on her being 'disabled' which seems to be false, based on everything else I have read, particularly by doctors..

[Pithlet]

20. The rest DOES make sense

There aren't only two states of being - disabled or not. She is in a permanent vegetative state. She is dead; her body is just going on without her. Our bodily functions aren't what makes us who we are. According to her husband, her legal next of kin, she would not have wanted that. That should have been the end of it.

[lynne]

8. Who's to say that her councel -

- wouldn't defend her right to die?

[deek]

11. Terri has every right to die

IF she were dying.

Terri's not dying--she's severely disabled.

[Padraig18]

12. That's the crucial distinction.

:thumbsup:

[lynne]

14. Without the feeding tube, she's dying -

- disabled or not.

Since her wish was no life support, I would think any councel would have to take her wishes into consideration in representing her.

[ohio_liberal]

15. Right

I read the Guardian Ad Litem's report and feeding tubes are considered extraordinary measures, exactly the same as a ventilator, in the state of Florida.

[deek]

23. feeding tubes are no big deal, really

Then what about insulin injections, CPR, dialysis machines, etc?

Should we turn Amish and ban them all?

[Dookus]

33. where on earth did you get THAT idea?

Nobody's arguing medical technology shouldn't be used. This argument has nothing to do with that.

It has to do with a woman in a persistent vegetative state, and her husband carrying out her wishes.

[ohio_liberal]

34. It might be "no big deal"

to you but by Florida law it is simply considered an extraordinary and artificial measure to sustain life. Don't throw in insulin therapy and CPR. You're comparing apples and oranges.

[deek]

37. Am I?

Depends what world you live in, I guess.

I am surrounded by people who consider feeding tubes no big deal.

[ohio_liberal]

44. I guess I live in the "world" outside the US

In Europe the controversy surrounding PVS patients and feeding tubes is nearly non-existent. (In Europe) You will have to look hard to find a feeding tube in hospice facilities like Terri Schiavo resides in. Does quantity become all important versus quality of life? Just because we have the artificial means to keep people alive doesn't mean we should use those means indiscriminately.

[kskiska]

9. Editorial from St. Petersburg Times re: new bill proposed

Bill sets rules for all like Schiavo

The proposed law says the terminally ill must get food and water unless a living will says otherwise.

By STEVE BOUSQUET, Times Staff Writer

TALLAHASSEE - The Legislature's first attempt to keep Terri Schiavo's feeding tube connected was a law tailored to her case, but the Florida Supreme Court struck it down unanimously.

Now, lawmakers are pushing a broader proposal that could affect thousands of Floridians lying incapacitated in hospitals, hospices and nursing homes.

The new bill would require that food and water be given to terminally ill people unless they specified in a living will that they did not want to be kept alive that way. A verbal declaration to relatives or loved ones would not necessarily be recognized.

(snip)

"This is one of the most antifamily bills that I've ever seen come across this Legislature," said Larry Spalding of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida. "The key unit of society is the family, and you're taking away the rights of the family."

(snip)

Dr. Howard Tuch of Hospice of Southwest Florida in Sarasota, a member of a state commission on end-of-life care, warned that the bill would force thousands of patients in nursing homes and assisted living centers to have feeding tubes surgically attached.

more…
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/10/State/Bill_sets_rules...

[ohio_liberal]

38. Wait until Florida

figures out how many end stage Alzheimer's dementia patients they're going to have attached to feeding tubes. This is completely unnecessary and cruel. Barbaric, even.

[fob]

13. Then Jeb et al should support a "Death with Dignity" act so she

doesn't have to starve to death or have the Doctor arrested if he were to "end it more painlessly".

[onenote]

16. stick a burger and fries in front of her

If she "feels" hungry, she'll do something about it....
Oh wait..she can't "feel" anything....

Does this mean that taking someone off of a ventilator is "suffocating" them...

onenote

[deek]

22. rational and humane quip

Terri has profound brain damage, resulting in acquired cerebral palsy. Her brain can not send the right messages to her body in order for her to eat safely.

Of course she feels hungry is she isn't fed. We all do.

A ventilator breathes for a person. I know a couple of people who uses ventilators. I would be suffocating them if I did that, yes.

Chris Reeve used one, also.

Feeding via a gastrostomy tube merely bypasses the complex oral motor skills that Terri does not have because of her brain damage.

She has a "button". The tube (which looks like a piece of aquarium tubing) is joined to her button. The other end is connected to her commercialized "milkshake".

She doesn't even use a feeding pump to eat. She's fed via "gravity drip".

There are no plugs to pull.

[Dookus]

26. no

she does NOT "feel" hungry. She feels nothing - she has no cerebral cortex, which is where such "feelings" are created.

No one is suggesting removing ventilators from people are not in a persistent vegetative state - that's just a strawman.

[ohio_liberal]

29. You beat me to it

I agree that there's absolutely nothing to suggest that Terri Schiavo can feel hunger.

[deek]

30. People are very afraid of people who have severe disabilities

I have watched the video clips. Terri is there. You just need to be familiar with people who have the most significant disabilites to see it. It is obvious to those that do.

[Dookus]

32. And have you watched ALL the video ?

or just the highly-edited ones? You know, the many hours of tape illegally recorded by her family, and then selectively edited to make it appear she's responding.

Whether you define her condition as a severe disability or not is irrelevant. She's in a persistent vegetative state. This really has no implications regarding killing people because they're disabled. If you define disabled that far, then nobody will EVER be able to be removed from life support.

[deek]

35. I've seen clips

I wouldn't call them "highly edited". There's no smoke and mirrors going on.

And why aren't her own parents "allowed" to videotape their own daughter?

She isn't appearing to respond. Terri DOES respond.

I know how selective you have to be when photographing/videotaping a person with significant disabilities. After all, they have severe brain damage. How can you expect them to respond as if they don't? How can you expect them to respond like seals? It doesn't happen.

I don't believe Terri is PVS.

Some people say that the drs who dispute that are on her parents' side. The same can be said for MS's drs.

Anyone who has ever been involved in a medical malpractice suit knows how that works.

[Dookus]

40. the courts

have repeatedly seen the tapes, and heard the doctors. They have consistently sided with Michael Schiavo.

I think any of us who wants to maintain some control over our own destiny should be very wary of letting the state, or an advocacy group, or James Dobson, redefine standard practices and laws.

[ohio_liberal]

43. A question about those tapes

Can anyone tell me where the taping took place?

[meganmonkey]

36. And other people seem to be very afraid of human mortality

You aren't the only one who has worked with severely disabled people. A carefully edited videotape does not do it for me.

[deek]

39. I'm not afraid of human mortality

and I haven't only worked in this world. I've lived in it for over 21 years--24/7.

[meganmonkey]

41. That does nothing to prove that Terry is 'disabled'

Look, I have always avoided the Schiavo threads. I am sorry I got sucked into this one. I only got involved because it looked like a press release was being passed off as news when this was in the LBN forum. I should never have followed it into GD.

I truly believe this is a non-issue. You will not change my mind, I will not change yours.

Peace.

[deek]

42. peace to you too

True, I will not change your mind. You will not change mine.

I'm only hoping that some people will follow the threads and perhaps visit the DU Disabled forum to gain some understanding of how terrifying (no pun intended) this is for us.

Most people have very strong opinions about Terri Schiavo and her plight, but there are some who are still unsure. I only hope to help them obtain a bit more insight into the real issues at hand.