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Stop_the_War Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:29 PM
Original message
why do white people complain about Black History Month?
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 07:35 PM by Stop_the_War
I have heard this from some people. They say, why isn't there any white history month. I think the idea of a "white history month" is stupid and ridiculous.

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Mojambo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm white and it doesn't bother me.
I find black history to be a fascinating part of American history and I'm glad it is focused upon.

Black history in many ways is white history. It's just the white history that no one likes to talk about.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. rather. it's American history
Though whiteness only exists in opposition to blackness.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
50. Well said.
eom
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NicRic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
244. Same Here !
I believe its fine that there is a month to educate our young and old alike, about the plite of the African Americans history . Iam full blooded Italian, second generation and I would also like a Italian American history month, however I realize that there are not enough months in the year to cover all of the differant people in our big melting pot. You must admit the African Americans story on coming to this country in much differant then most others since they where kidnapped and stolen from their country of orgin ,and forced into slavery ! I would say that definitly gives them first dibbs on a history month on their background !
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. Perhaps some are bigots?
Some are just plain stupid?
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Reverend_Smitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. I always respond...
When the white race is brutally oppressed and enslaved for 400 years, you can take November. I'm white too and that kind of talk annoys me as well
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southlandshari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. ditto that
from another enthusiastic white supporter of black history month!

I'm glad there is a black history month because the American history classes I took as a kid were woefully lacking when it came to teaching history in context, from both white and black perspectives (as well as others). I remember a mention of Harriet Tubman, Booker T. Washington and Martin Luther King, Jr. VERY little else.
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CitySky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
136.  i like that one
:thumbsup:
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wrong analogy...not color but ethnicity
There are plenty of Italian American Days, German days, in Minnesota there is Svenskarnasdag...(Sweden)

They are just called different things. It;s about ethnicity not color
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
5. they can start complaining about March too
It's women's history month. Those people are just idiots. If they knew anything about history they wouldn't make such comments.
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. I don't, because there's a need for it.
God willing (and the repukes don't destroy the world), my grandkids will no longer see the need for it.
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Placebo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
7. delete
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 07:39 PM by Placebo
same reason as imenja
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. delete
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 07:36 PM by imenja
had to delete because the OP edited his/her post, making what I said no longer true.
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shawcomm Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
10. It is ridiculous.
Hundreds upon hundreds of years of oppression by the white man; let them get a taste of it and they lose their minds. They go on and on with the, "I'm not responsible for anything my ancestors did." yet they are born with an advantage from those years of looting and pillaging.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
99. I find this comment to be ridiculously racist...
Hundreds upon hundreds of years of oppression by the white man; let them get a taste of it and they lose their minds. They go on and on with the, "I'm not responsible for anything my ancestors did." yet they are born with an advantage from those years of looting and pillaging.


IF that's the case, then why aren't I advantaged? Why were my parents on food stamp programs and at times, welfare? Why didn't I have an abundance of college programs and preferential admissions available to me rather than enlisting in the Navy because I couldn't afford to go to school?

Advanaged? Ok, you may think so, but, you do not know me or my family. You probably don't know of those steel workers murdered in Alliquippa Pa. in the 20s' or 30's. The coal miners suffering an effective indentured servatude for a century or more. You might not be aware of other similar instances. Oh, and they were also primarily Polish, Italian and Black.

You will also be hard pressed to document the alleged advantage of poor whites. Advantage comes from money, not from race. Until both sides of the racial divide recognize that the real issue is now, and always has been, one of financial class, no progress can be made.

Finally, what does this statement have to do with Black History Month? About the same it has to do with Scottish history month and Polish history month. Oh, wait a minute, I forgot there a sec. The net effect of black history month is to give the bigoted something to bitch about and keep the focus off of the real underlying problem.

-Hoot
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #99
117. That statement is not racist, it's the truth.
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 11:00 AM by ultraist
No one said that poor whites don't encounter classism. We are talking about racism in this thread. Why are you bringing up classism?

Blacks also encounter classism and sexism for that matter. Think about what a lower income Black female encounters. TRIPLE WHAMMY of oppression.

Your justification makes about as much sense as saying, Black Gays don't experience racism because they are Gay, they only encounter homophobia.

In our society, "Race Matters." To say it doesn't is to deny the facts.
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Red_Thirst Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #117
124. Preventing Hate Speech
With regard to this issue over black history month, I just feel it is essential that we prevent hate speech.

Hate speech is a bad thing and undermines peoples real freedom. Even if they have notional freedoms hate speech prevents them exercising their rights.

Especially, religious hate spoeech is very insidious.

I am against hate speech.

That is why I feel that the US needs a constitutional body with real clout to prevent hate speech, especially against Christians, who are one of the groups most often targeted.

My idea is to repeal the bit of the US Constitution that says "Congress shall make no law in respect of an establishment of religion."

and replace it with

"Congress shall make no law in respect of an establishment of religion except the Church Militant of the United States of America, as established and provided for elsewhere."

(And then another section to be added later on defining this new branch of government)

Also, whilst I imagine many people have sympathy with you Stop_the_War ... the war IS stopped.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #124
130. This has to be a joke, right?
You are advocating for more limitations on freedom of speech because you feel Christians are victims of hate speech?

A constitutional amendment to nationalize the "Church Militant?"

Congress shall make no law in respect of an establishment of religion except the Church Militant of the United States of America, as established and provided for elsewhere."

(And then another section to be added later on defining this new branch of government)


I'll take your post as sarcasm because I couldn't imagine anyone really advocating to nationalize the "Church Militant."

I also see a huge disconnect between discussing Black History month and hate speech against Christians.

:silly:

Please tell me this is a joke! LOL!
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #124
143. Welcome to DU!
You will find your meaning made clearer readers if you use a </sarcasm> tag. Here in GD a good number of folks will think that you are serious.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #143
149. LOL! Thanks!
A :eyes: emotive works too.

Hey, you never know! I have read things like that from posters who really meant it. :scared:
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #117
126. It may be based in some truth, but it is also racist...
No one said that poor whites don't encounter classism. We are talking about racism in this thread. Why are you bringing up classism?

Because painting whites with the broad brush of that post is racist. To paint any race with such a broad brush is racist, and offensive to me. I bring up classism because it is the root cause. Because in my personal observation since the 1980s or so, racism has been used as a tool to keep the lower economic classes fighting amongst themselves instead of attacking the root causes of the real problem, which is one of class.

Blacks also encounter classism and sexism for that matter. Think about what a lower income Black female encounters. TRIPLE WHAMMY of oppression.

But the post I was replying to implied, if not claimed, that it (oppression) is the responsibility of all white people. It implies that I (and other 'white trailer-trash') have or had the ability to actually do something to correct the situation, and therefore we owe someone a debt. The poor are powerless.

Your justification makes about as much sense as saying, Black Gays don't experience racism because they are Gay, they only encounter homophobia.

Justification? I've not tried to justify anything. I pointed out that the poster was using a broad brush continuing to advance the meme that race is the fundamental root of oppression. That meme, my friend, is advanced by the upper economic classes of all races. That meme fosters the continuation of actual racism. When are we actually going to get to where people are judged by the content of thier character rather than the color of thier skin? When we learn to set aside race and stop advancing racist memes. When we learn to attack the underlying problems by advancing less devisive memes.

In our society, "Race Matters." To say it doesn't is to deny the facts.

Where did I say that race does not matter? Perhaps I implied it, but, my point was to say that race matters less than class. I simply see a more causal link to class than to race.

Peace.
-Hoot
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #126
131. No one said poor whites don't have less power than rich whites
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 12:12 PM by ultraist
Again, no one is denying classism. But poor whites do have advantages over poor blacks. That's why there are 24% of blacks in poverty and only 8% of whites in poverty as well as other discrepancies.

I don't think that poster was denying classism exists. But to eliminate discussions of racism from our dialogue is to deny the truth, thus not address it. We need to address this horrific social ill. This does not mean we shouldn't also address classism.

I disagree with you that classism is "the root" of the problem. There are different problems going on. Should we also not discuss sexism and homophobia and focus ONLY on classism? Focusing ONLY on classism will NOT end racism, sexism, and homophobia.

Please read Dean's statement on this. It encourages ALL of us to discuss racism and to address the social injustices created by it.

Consider this, my upper class Black son faces racism. Why is that? If ONLY classism is a problem? (We are white upper income with an adopted black son).
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #131
139. As does my bi-racial nephew...
I stand by my claim that in recent history and in my observation, classism is a larger problem. This is my opinion.

It was never my intent to eliminate the discussion of racism, but, I would prefer not to discuss it in a racist way. I claim the post I initially responded to is a racist remark. That it does more harm than good in the discussion of racism, and further, that in my personal experience, people of all colors are oppressed more by class than by color. You replied that it is not racist, but truth. We then got sidetracked by classism. I perhaps should not have gone there in the same post, but couldn't resist sharing my personal life experience.

To claim that you or I are responsible for racist oppression without direct evidence is to further racist ideals. That is the chain which must be broken. It's a fine semantic line which is difficult not to cross, and when I do I hope that I am called on it, just as I called the person making that post on it, so I may learn or perhaps more appropriately unlearn the racism we are all taught.

-Hoot
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #139
153. Maybe classism is a bigger problem. I 'm not sure what you mean by bigger
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 01:34 PM by ultraist
Bigger in that it affects more people? It affects more WHITE people. Blacks face racism and classism. Whites, with the exception of the top income earners, face classism.

I don't think there is any reason to eliminate discussions of racism from our dialogue and neither does Dean, Reid, Kerry, Edwards, Boxer, or numerous other white Democrats. We know where the Black Democrats stand on this.

I don't think it's productive to say, "classism is bigger" therefore we should minimize racism or put it second or third on the list.

Where do Gay rights fall on your "list?" Should we WAIT to address that issue too?

We should work on EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL. That is a Democratic core value.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #153
174. Ok then I'll assume that you agree...
With my assesment that the original statement I replied to is racist, and I'll continue our class discussion.

Bigger in that it affects more people? It affects more WHITE people. Blacks face racism and classism. Whites, with the exception of the top income earners, face classism.

No. By your own statistics, it affects more minorities than white people. By working on the elimination of class we can do more in concrete economic terms per capita to uplift minorities. This especially applies to the most oppressed, hardest struggling members of those minorities.

I don't think there is any reason to eliminate discussions of racism from our dialogue and neither does Dean, Reid, Kerry, Edwards, Boxer, or numerous other white Democrats. We know where the Black Democrats stand on this.

Where have I said we need to eliminate the discussion of racism? I have said that it is important to discuss it without making racist statements and without advancing racist memes. Racism is a learned behavior. To make racist statements, however subtle, is to perpetuate its tolerance. That is what I oppose.

I don't think it's productive to say, "classism is bigger" therefore we should minimize racism or put it second or third on the list.

Where do Gay rights fall on your "list?" Should we WAIT to address that issue too?

What I tried to say, and will try again for the last time, is that racism is currently a distraction from a problem whose solution will have a more concrete positive effect than solving racim per se. Therefore, I propose it is a 'larger' problem.

What on Godess' green earth makes you think I have a list? I state that racism specifically, and imply discrimination in general, is devisive amongst those who need to come together to oppose an issue that has a greater impact on thier immediate lives, so you decide that I have a list that identifies a 'pecking order' of more an less acceptable discrimination. How shallow do I sound? Let me reassure you that I am not that picayune.

We should work on EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL. That is a Democratic core value.


Yes, finally something we can agree on, but, please, let's not use racist and discriminitory practice in attempting to advance that cause.

-Hoot
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #174
194. No, you are assuming incorrectly, I don't feel that statement was racist
No. By your own statistics, it affects more minorities than white people. By working on the elimination of class we can do more in concrete economic terms per capita to uplift minorities. This especially applies to the most oppressed, hardest struggling members of those minorities.

No, you are confusing percentages with raw numbers. 24% of Blacks in poverty still means there are more whites in poverty by real numbers. I'm sure you understand that 24% of 12% population is less than 8% of 78% of the population. Basic math.


To make racist statements, however subtle, is to perpetuate its tolerance. That is what I oppose.

Who has made racist statments? I haven't. Honest discussion of racism, is not racist against whites.

What I tried to say, and will try again for the last time, is that racism is currently a distraction from a problem whose solution will have a more concrete positive effect than solving racim per se. Therefore, I propose it is a 'larger' problem.

I disagree that agree that "racism is currently a distraction from a problem..." I think avoiding addressing racism and/or remaining in denial is racist.

You have said that "racism is a distraction" which implies, classism is of a higher priority and agreed with the poster who said, "Step One." That is a list. We don't need a 1-2-3 list. We CAN address several issues at once. Ever hear of chewing gum and walking at the same time? ;)


"We should work on EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL. That is a Democratic core value. "

Yes, finally something we can agree on, but, please, let's not use racist and discriminitory practice in attempting to advance that cause.

What's racist and discriminatory about talking about and dealing with racism?

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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #194
218. If I had replied with a phrase like
The Black Man did X, where X is an unacceptable thing, You would accuse me of making a racist comment. Rightly so, because it is. This is no different. This is what eliminating racism means to me, actually eliminating it.

No, you are confusing percentages with raw numbers. 24% of Blacks in poverty still means there are more whites in poverty by real numbers. I'm sure you understand that 24% of 12% population is less than 8% of 78% of the population. Basic math.

Well, I already knew I'm not a mathemagician. I misread your post thinking you were talking in terms of the entire population. I still think (a belief) that waving a magic wand able to eliminate one or the other, that classism would have a more immediate positive effect on society as a whole.

Who has made racist statments? I haven't. Honest discussion of racism, is not racist against whites.

I didn't say you did! I am saying painting all white people with the responsibility of propogating racism is in itself a form of racism. I don't oppose discussing racism if we can leave racist commentary out of the discussion. My original post was complaining that shawcomm's post was itself racist because it paints all white men with the same brush.

I disagree that agree that "racism is currently a distraction from a problem..." I think avoiding addressing racism and/or remaining in denial is racist.

Then you and I have walked different paths and see the world differently. I do not deny racism exists. I do not avoid discussing it. I will point it out wherever it comes from, as I did above.

You have said that "racism is a distraction" which implies, classism is of a higher priority and agreed with the poster who said, "Step One." That is a list. We don't need a 1-2-3 list. We CAN address several issues at once. Ever hear of chewing gum and walking at the same time? ;)

Yes, but I fall down a lot :P and our society seems to be much more effective addressing one evil at a time.

What's racist and discriminatory about talking about and dealing with racism?

It's all in the how, not the subject. When people use broad generalizations like 'the white man' (from the original post) you might as well call me a cracker. I am as offended by that as I am by someone using any racial derogative. I have to force myself to think about how that person does not know me.

-Hoot
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #218
222. Generalizations vs. Absolute statements
Then you and I have walked different paths and see the world differently

Possibly! Based on our backgrounds and educations, we may well have a different perspective. I haven't said one way or the other if classism is worse than racism because I don't think it's accurate to make that judgement.

I do agree that classism affects more people in real numbers but poor whites were not lynched just a couple of decades ago for being white or poor. Poor whites are not victims of hate crimes. Poor whites certainly have their share of struggles, but they have always had an advantage over poor blacks.

I just don't think it's possible to quantify one being "worse" than the other from a perspective that classim affects more people. And really, what's the point?

Regarding the OP, I do agree, "some" whites is more accurate. Not all whites oppose BHM.

When people use broad generalizations...

There is a difference between broad generalizations, such as "people who smoke are more likely to get lung cancer" and absolutist statements such as "all whites are racist." Research draws broad conclusions and shows correlations (computes statistical relationships). For instance, 'income and education are postively correlated.' This is not saying that ALL well educated individuals have a higher income, it is pointing out a statisically relevant link. Point being, not all broad generalizations are inaccurate.
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jeffrey_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #153
175. The combination of racism and classism is only experienced by one group...
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 02:17 PM by jeffrey_X
and it's a very ugly combination.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #175
177. Yes, the Hispanic population is decimated by this.
:evilgrin:

-Hoot
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #177
181. way to hoot, Hoot!
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #177
182. That's right. Racism affects Hispanics and all people of color
Racism also affects Muslim Middle Easterners, you know, those "brown skinned" people.

The Hispanic population was not ripped from their homeland and enslaved, but have come here willingly. We have never had laws that seperated Hispanics from whites, such as Jim Crow laws. So there are some different dynamics here.

This is not to say, that Hispanics don't face horrific racism here. This whole idea to "criminalize" Hispanics by labeling them "ILLEGAL" aliens is fueled by racism. Hispanics are the poorest segment of our society, but this includes undocumenated workers, not just US Citizen Hispanics. That is a whole different discussion.

This thread happens to be about Black History and racism against Blacks. What's your point?
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #182
187. You just made my point.
Perhaps I should have said Elbonians instead of Hispanics.

To imply that only one group is more affected by racism is silly, and, um, racist?

-Hoot
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #187
196. I never said only one group is affected by racism? Where did I say that?
We are focusing on racism against Blacks in this thread because that is the subject of the OP.

Do you want to discuss racism against "brown skinned" Middle Easterners? Start another thread. I likely will post there.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #196
202. I know you didn't say that,
The guy I replied to with an attempt at humor did say that.

-Hoot
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #202
205. K!
thanks for clarifying!
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jeffrey_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #177
210. Poor wording on my part...
Yes...racism is experienced by other minorities in this country...there is not doubt about it. However, the black community is scrutinized the most through the combination of racism and classism.
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newportdadde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #131
140. I don't believe the poster is saying Classim is the ONLY problem.
As someone who has experience racism myself and seen it dished out to others in a sickening way its obviously a problem and an important problem.

What I believe is that we have an ever greater group of people about 98% of this country of all colors which need to come together against the aristocracy which contorls money, power and influence we can't even imagine. Thats step one, once you conquer that then and only then will the 98% of us who have more incommon then we realize be able to make real change towards racism in the US.

The fact is the main thread adds no value to the debate. It states a broad premise about how White people complain about Black History month. Its sort of like watching MSM news and having the reporter go "So Mr. Kerry SOME PEOPLE say your a flip flopper and a traitor" its garbage.

When threads like this are written two things happen. Posters come out and dog pile whitey. Then some whites on this board who don't feel priveleged get pissed about this silver spoon they are suppose to have and complain back and then it degenerates into flaming garbage.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #140
150. Thanks.
You sum it up prety well.

-Hoot
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #140
151. Step ONE is to address classism? How long do Blacks and Gays wait?
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 01:51 PM by ultraist
bold added

What I believe is that we have an ever greater group of people about 98% of this country of all colors which need to come together against the aristocracy which contorls money, power and influence we can't even imagine. Thats step one, once you conquer that then and only then will the 98% of us who have more incommon then we realize be able to make real change towards racism in the US.

Why do we have to address classism FIRST? Why not address all of the issues, rather than put some on the back burner? It's not a matter of having to choose ONE issue. How long should Gays wait to have their issues addressed?Why do you think we have to CHOOSE ONE ISSUE ONLY?

Furthermore, there are interlocking effects of the various forms of oppression. Being Black and Gay for instance, or being Female and lower income, or being upper income and Black. You cannot seperate out classism and focus on this FIRST and IGNORE RACISM, SEXISM, AND HOMOPHOBIA.

They are different issues with some parallels as they are all forms of oppression, yet, each has distinct ways in which it manifests and targets specific groups.

Why choose classism as the FIRST STEP? That would benefit mostly whites. Why base it on a quantitative approach, raw numbers in the majority? If that's the case Gays have a looooong wait to have their issues addressed as they are approximately 10% of the population. That's absurd!

That's what they told Blacks during Civil Rights movement and women during the Women's rights movement, "just wait, someday we will address your concerns."

Sorry, TIMES UP! NO MORE WAITING. We don't HAVE to choose one or the other.

Please read Dean's statement on Black History month where he encourages us to continue to discuss racism and address the social injustices that Blacks face.

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newportdadde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #151
184. I'm not saying you stop all dialogue about racisim or discrimination again
But if want any real change for either of these you have to regain control at local levels as well as the national level and right now we are getting beat down on both counts. Social issues are very important but until we address economic class issues we are going to continue to be beaten.

You have to reach out to that regular Joe and the best way to do that is through his wallet ie classism. Unfortunately reaching out to Redneck Bob about racism or gay rights isn't going to get his vote. But if you talk to Bob about his wallet, something that goes across all races well then maybe he won't care so much about what his preacher said about gays. You might want to read "Whats the Matter with Kansas?" by Thomas Frank if you haven't already it addresses some of this.

The average Joe right now sees no difference in economic policy between the parties and then votes against his/her best interest based on social issues... because they have a perveted opinion that the RW actually cares about social issues or because they are racist or homofobe or whatever they go Republican. We have to bring back classism into this equation. Fighting for the working class has been one of our staples and we have lost it.

Again I am not saying abandon either issue you mentioned but if you want the power to actually have real change for these issues you have to aim for the pocketbook.
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shawcomm Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #126
217. Race matters less than class to you because you're white.
That's a perfect example of the systemic indirect racism that still exists today and, evidently, one of the people the subject of my post was about.

People of color have an extra obstacle in their paths, one more than you do, yet you want to push that to the back of the bus and move the focus to your problems. Yes, classism exists and is a serious problem, but people of color have racism to deal with on top of that.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #217
221. Or maybe it's because I don't consider race in my dealings with people?
That's a perfect example of the systemic indirect racism that still exists today and, evidently, one of the people the subject of my post was about.

Or, perhaps it's a residual bias, not racism. I never claimed there is no bias, I claim that it should be as offensive to you as it is to me when racist remarks or arguments are made. It further shouldn't matter whose race is being denigrated: Asian, Indian, Hispanic, Black, White or Elbonian. Who exactly was your post about? Which minority would you like to raise first? How can we raise them all? By addressing class.

Hundreds upon hundreds of years of oppression by the white man; let them get a taste of it and they lose their minds. They go on and on with the, "I'm not responsible for anything my ancestors did." yet they are born with an advantage from those years of looting and pillaging.


There's a lot of hate wrapped up in that. Isn't overcomming hate based on race what ending racism is all about? How do we end that? Stop teaching it.

Peace,
-Hoot
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #221
223. People feel outraged by racism and rightly so! That's not "teaching hate"
Someone expressing anger is not "teaching" anger. People should be outraged at the inhumane way people of color are treated. It's despicable and shameful. Should we also not feel anger if another Holocaust were to occur?

*bold added

It further shouldn't matter whose race is being denigrated: Asian, Indian, Hispanic, Black, White or Elbonian. Who exactly was your post about? Which minority would you like to raise first?

*whites are not a minority

How can we raise them all? By addressing class

How will this eliminate racism? Will addressing class also eliminate sexism and homophobia?
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #223
225. Yes, I know whites are not a minority.
*sigh* I should have started a new paragraph when I asked the last question. I was asking why if any minority should be raised preferentially over other minorities, which is one implied message in what I was responding to.

The way that original message is worded is teaching hate. It is a general statement with the implication that can be summarized as the white man will continue to oppress me, and you too. My answer is some might, but don't include me personally in that group.

Again and for the last time. Racism is a learned behavior. The only way to end it is to stop teaching it.

As to curing the worlds evils, raising poor people up to a decent standard of living in itself won't make anything better, but, they will be a little more comfortable, and that will make them less insecure, which some people believe, will possibly over time, lessen the teaching of hate.

-Hoot

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jbane Donating Member (668 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
227. Ignorant response.
Try a little harder next time...please.
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shawcomm Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #227
232. Since you've brought up the subject of trying harder,
why don't you work harder to let me know what is so ignorant about my post? I've read statements by people before that expressed the idea that I posted about, that they feel outraged because of some perceived discrimination that they themselves have perpetrated throughout history. Are you saying that you don't find the idea of a white history month ridiculous? As another said, just about every month is white history month. Some don't feel that is enough though and get irked by the thought of teaching a different perspective.

A good example of perspective: just think back to what you were taught about the 'discovery' of America. It's not as if the Americas were uninhabited.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #227
239. Posts that are titled "Ignorant Response"
That have nothing to back them up always make me wonder if the Subject title is about the post it is responding to, or the one it is introducing.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #227
242. Oh pLAAAEEEse. What have YOU contributed to this discussion?
Aside from an insult? How arrogant and rude.

READ MUCH? If you did, you'd see the TRUTH in that statement.
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Abelman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. Agree/disagree
I find it dumb to complain as well. Though, I think history of all cultures should be something prevalent in any educational/social community, especially in a "melting pot."

I think I know what you mean my "reverse discrimination," but as a white male I have been actually discrimintated against in various areas. Perhaps not the best word, but I have felt the sting of racism which was quite disheveling, especially to one who has never participated in the attacking side of it.

All white folk ought to spend some time in an area where they are not the majority, it really opens your eyes to the variety of cultures on this planet and helps you understand just a tiny bit of the way many minorities are treated.

I feel obliged to state that I don't think I can relate entirely to the fashion minorities are treated, but I can relate on a miniscule level.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. American history classes have historically been
White Male American History, at least they were back in the day when I was a schoolkid. You really had to dig way beyond the textbooks to get any of the "way it REALLY was" history.

I guess white folk don't need a single little month, because they get their moments in history every day of the year!
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n2mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
13. I never heard anyone complain before.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
14. For the same reason my idiot
brothers complain about Women's History Month.
Because they're ... idiots !
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
15. What's the problem.
Every month is White(-wash) History Month.
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RawMaterials Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
17. why is black history month the shortest month of the year?
that is the better question.
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. ditto that
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Because Abraham Lincoln was born in February
At least that's how it was explained to me.

Hey, it's better than April...

Early morning, April four
Shots ring out in the Memphis sky
Three blasts, they took your life
They could not take your pride
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. i still get chills when i hear that song...
nt
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EEgrad2003 Donating Member (70 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #23
71. technically....
Carter Grant Woodson felt that Negro History week should fall on the birthdays of Abraham Lincoln and Fredrick Douglass. It wasn't until the late seventies where the concept of black history month was implemented.
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Malingerer Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:59 PM
Original message
honestly
Do you seriously think the length of the month has anything to do with what Black History Month stands for?

The only reason that I can think of to complain about it is that.... it should be unnecessary because in an ideal world people would get over this absurd notion of race. We need to just realize that what people look like doesn't have a fig to do with who they are. Social and cultural interaction during youth have infinitely more effect on a person's character than what they look like. We should celebrate the achievements and history of everyone and everything. Where do you draw the line? Chinese history month? Icelandic history month. It's all important... that should be the message. Learn from the history of the world... so that we may learn from the mistakes and achievements of the past.
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sonicx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
34. May is Asian Heritage Month
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 08:20 PM by sonicx
Gays get June. Latinos get September. American Indians get November.

http://www.earthcalendar.net/index.php
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
98. Hmm... your 'reason'
sounds a lot like someone complaining about the existence of hospitals, because we all *ought* to live healthy disease-free and injury-free lives...which is about as likely to happen, in the near term, as your scenario. Yeah sure, we *should* live in a color-blind society--Republicans are always blabbing about that--but we don't, and we won't, as long as people who side with racism are running things.
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #17
74. It was because of Dr. Carter G. Woodson
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 01:28 AM by fortyfeetunder
http://www.historychannel.com/blackhistory /

"Much of the credit can go to Harvard Scholar Dr. Carter G. Woodson, who was determined to bring Black History into the mainstream public arena. Woodson devoted his life to making "the world see the Negro as a participant rather than as a lay figure in history."

In 1926 Woodson organized the first annual Negro History Week, which took place during the second week of February. Woodson chose this date to co-incide with the birthdays of Frederick Douglass and Abraham Lincoln - two men who had greatly impacted the black population."
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
18. Same reason they voted for Bush
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
20. Only a handful of racists and I really don't give much importance to their
rantings.
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
21. In part, because they are not taught to see White Privilege
They are taught that "racism" is a series of discreet, individual acts for which only the individuals involved are responsible. So if only individuals are responsible, there cannot be a systemic problem - like history being taught as White Male history.

The flip side of this is that if Racism is a problem of individuals, then there can be no communal responsibility for systematic oppression and discrimination. Every person is responsible for pulling him/herself up out of poverty/oppression because, don't you know, anyone can overcome obstacles if s/he just works hard enough. It is classic Right Wing ideology.

People are not taught to look at a (approx, I don't have the figures in front of me but is +/-) 25% poverty rate among minorities and say, gee whiz, how could that be?

Unless one has some understanding of institutionalized White privilege, then "Black History" just sounds like that awful "Political Correctness" we hear so much about.

And of course, part of it could be that the complainers are racist themselves, using "reverse discrimination" and "special treatment" and "political correctness" as code words to disguise their own racist/homophobic/misogynist behavior.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. yep, fundies i work with confuse "political correctness"
with basic human rights all the time.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. Well said kenzee13!
I couldn't agree more.

:toast:

Btw, your stat was correct:
24% of Blacks in poverty
8% of Whites in poverty

Lots of other discrepancies too...

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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
45. There is no such thing as "White Privilege"...
...it's an academic myth.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Oh, really? Then how do you explain the discrepancies?
Blacks and Whites are treated the same?
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #45
57. riiiiiiiiiiight.
just more of those damn commie pinko liberal professors spreading lies...I mean, it's a slippery slope right? First Latinos, Native Americans, African Americans, then GAYS get a month...what's next, Sex with Box Turtles Month?? :eyes:
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mimitabby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #45
105. academic huh
ask that to any black man or woman who has been ignored in
a restaurant or denied entrance to a bathroom in a gas station
or who thought twice about taking his/her white partner to
a public place..
you need a longer list?
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #105
111. Damn librul intellectual professors! BAN THE BOOKS!
And you know, homophobia is a myth too!

:eyes:

I guess all of the people who have seen or experienced unequal treatment due to being Black are just lying!
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #105
219. Exactly
I have friends who went to a restaurant in a white neighborhood. They were the only blacks. He said patrons were staring at them and whispering to each other. It's as if they were viewed as being from a different planet. That's the kind of behaviour blacks constantly encounter.
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jeffrey_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #45
110. Uhhh...yes there is.
Please.

I have no problem admitting that I am where I am today (financially, etc.) because I am white.

I work less than 40 hours a week and frankly do not work all that hard and make 6 figures a year. I'm in sales and have yet to have called on an African American in my industry.
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jeffrey_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #110
112. More proof...
I'm white and my wife is African American. It never fails where ever we go (restaurants, shopping, etc.) I am always the one who is acknowledged by everyone while my wife is constantly ignored.

I see it everyday. As a white man, I have privilige and I don't have a problem admitting.

I think some people are afraid of admitting it or realizing it because they think it will take away from all of their "hard work, etc."
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #112
116. Well said!
I think you nailed it with this statement: "I think some people are afraid of admitting it or realizing it because they think it will take away from all of their "hard work, etc."

It's also because people don't willingly give up their power. So any illogical justification will do.

My Black son encounters racism on a daily basis. He is not lying and I'm not being delusional when I see it. He is an upper middle class kid. It's worse for lower income Blacks.

If you ask these people to explain why 24% of Blacks are in poverty while only 8% of Whites are in poverty or why 14% of Whites earn over 100k while only 5% of Blacks earn over 100k, or to explain why any of the other discrepancies exist, they don't answer. LOL!

Lack of education on the issue coupled with a desperation to hold onto their white power =denial=racism.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #45
115. yeah right
:eyes:
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #21
100. see 99 above. N/T
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
22. i have never heard a ite person complain
i am sure you have heard some people here and there, but is it really a big issue. like i say, i have yet to hear a white person bitch about it. i am suspect a couple people i know would, but they havent. but then they are bigots, so that would be why, if they bothered to bitch in front of me. which they wouldnt, because then they would have to listen to me go on and on and on, ...... and they just prefer to keep mouth shut.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
24. You should know the answer to that one...
acknowledging the equality of minorities will cause them to think they deserve the same fundamental human rights that should only be granted to white, straight, christian males.(I forgot stupid and republican)
:evilgrin:
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sonicx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
25. I've heard people say the same thing about BET...
"You couldn't have a TV station for white people"

Um, try nearly every station on the dial!
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
26. Because they're idiots?
Only thing I can think of.

I mean, considering that most history is Western-centric, most history that's taught in schools IS "white history". These people are morons if they don't realise that, and also don't realise that an effort to highlight the contributions to our culture of, say, blacks or Asians or Hispanics is a GOOD thing, because it gives a fuller picture than the one generally presented.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
29. It's a yearning for cultural identity.
I don't have it but I know people who do. They feel like the "white culture" is pushed aside and discouraged from building the same sense of community and unity as other ethnic groups. When I try to explain to them, from my mutt's perspective, that there is no real "white culture" just Swedish, Dutch, French, Norweigen, Italian, Irish, Scottish, British, Swiss, Castillian, Polish, etc. etc. etc. they have one of two responses. If it's Irish, Italian, or sometimes Polish, they can be a smartass and say "well those people aren't really white" or in the case of the others they say "no I mean like the African Americans have." When I point out that Hispanic Americans don't really join together in unison but rather celebrate their ethnic holidays as Mexican, Venezuelan, Cuban, etc etc that doesn't seem to help.

People need to understand that the reason why African Americans have a special sense of community in this country is their common history and experience, and that "whites" don't really have that. Instead what they have is subgroups like "Daughters of the American Revolution" and "children of the Gold Rush" and "wagon train settlers" and, on the less romantic side, "three generations of trailer parks and bologna." It wouldn't hurt if people were encouraged to pull a Saint Patrick's Day stint of debauchery on one of the more "white" American holidays, like President's day or such, or pushing a nordic/american-folk-music day. Just give them something to call their own, force feed it to them until they feel guilty for not participating in it, and then they won't feel quite so alone-in-the-world.

Though that will only fulfill the need. It won't take care of the negative feelings that have been pimped up into a lather by the likes of Limbaugh. That's a separate problem that will take some time to dissipate.

Oh, and by the way, it also wouldn't hurt if there was a national mongrel day where us mutts can celebrate our "hybrid vigor" :-)

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Bark Bark Bark Donating Member (572 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
30. It's Threatening!
Anything that even briefly interrupts the constant reinforcement of the image of WASP male superiority is a threat. Independent women (real or fictional), the promotion of diversity, the very thought that All Men (and Women) Are REALLY Created Equal--any one of these sends some jerks into screaming fits of terror.

It defies the credo: "I want what I want, and therefore am entitled to it, no matter who or what is hurt in getting it. I am God's child, and I alone am God's child. Me me me me me me. Me me me me me me. Me me me me me me. ME!" You might recognize this credo when speaking with Freeps and other selfish children.

It's not just white folks, and it's never justified, but my fellow Honkies have the least ground to stand on when they do it. Still, this is the basis of the "sore winner" phenomenon you see among Freeps; the more power they gain, the more pantswettingly insecure they become.
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. I have always wondered why my fellow Norwegian-Americans,
(we are supposedly the Nordic Race) never get in a lather about this to the extent that the WASPs do. Is it because we are not wrestling with a lot of guilt (not having enslaved anyone since about 1000 A.D)and we got here too late to wipe out Native Americans. Speaking for myself, I would be happy with an all-Grieg concert and a few Norwegian cookies.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #41
147. Don't forget the lutefisk!
Well, maybe you should....

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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #147
212. They won't let me!
But I don't eat too much.
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Shadowen Donating Member (742 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
32. It's like "Why is there no straight pride parade?"
It's called everyday commuter traffic.

"Why is there no Black History month?" Because the other x months of the year (depending on where you go to school), it's predominantly white history month.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #32
183. Ok, we'd call it a march not a parade.
lol
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
33. Because they're whiny, selfish babies with no knowledge of history
to begin with.

Some are seething racists hiding behind seemingly civil, semi-logical arguments.
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checks-n-balances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
35. Because they're so ignorant and just totally don't get it!
They probably see themselves as the true victims, because during things like Black History Month they are reminded that they aren't as superior as they've been taught to think they are.

Along those same lines, one of the best lines I ever heard from TV was when Archie Bunker was on a rant because - instead of himself or a male co-worker - his neighbor, Irene, got promoted to foreman at his place of work. He ended it with this very telling statement, in essence:

"What good is it to work hard all your life - just to make it and to get somewhere - when all you get is 'equal'!?"
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Doc_Technical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
36. "Outside a small circle of friends", by Phil Ochs.

"Sweating in the ghetto with the (colored/Panthers) and the poor
The rats have joined the babies who are sleeping on the floor
Now wouldn't it be a riot if they really blew their tops?
But they got too much already and besides we got the cops
And I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends".
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
37. There is white history dates. They are as follows:
St. Patrick's Day.
Any Scot Highlands competition day.
Octoberfest.

These little cliques go under the radar, but they're every bit white oriented.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. Oh, and rennaissance faires
I've never encountered one that wasn't set in a European city (usually someplace in England) and while the people who attend tend to be pretty openminded they're almost all white.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #46
95. but there is nothing in the title to suggest that it is all white or that
It in NOT for NON WHITES. There is nothing that says this is a white people thing for white people. Rather its a carnival about a time period. One that does not exclude blacks.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #95
125. I'm not implying that it does.
However, I've never even heard of one that takes place outside of Europe, never seen a fair worker who didn't appear to be white, and generally don't see more than a handful of people who don't appear to be of European ancestry at any given faire.

I'm not implying that faires are racist or that the people who go to them are (I love ren faires) however, they do center on rennaisance Europe.

That's my point, that euro-centric history is all around us, and the people who bitch about Black History Month don't notice it.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #125
133. Well said, Leftymom!
:thumbsup:
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #125
152. these fairs have been throughout the US
and I am quite certain that black people have attended them as well.
Please
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #152
155. And I've attended Black events. What's your point?
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #155
163. well, i and most whites have not. The reason is is that by the title we
are not wanted and are excluded. It seperates. It divides. It adds to racism. In my opinion since people want to use the racism charge. This is racism.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #163
168. No, black events are not racist. They CELEBRATE DIVERSITY
Again, you are using the "reverse racism" argument.

I'm not suprised you have not been to any Black events. Some exposure may broaden your horizons.

Why do you live such a racially segregated life?

Do you have any friends of other races or cultural backgrounds?
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #163
191. I've never felt that way.
Why would you feel excluded or not wanted?!?
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #37
65. those are Irish holidays.
Which I don't care if they stay or go either. What about Germanfest? Is that white? I thought I knew a black German man once. I really don't know the answer to this and it are there no black Irish? Or Black Germans?

Anyway these Holidays are not called "White mans day" or Whiteexpo, whitefest or whatever.
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The_Mule Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #65
73. Black Irish - Shaquille O'Neil?
He's the tallest Irishman I've ever seen - from Conan O'Brien.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #73
84. So, when Shaquille O'Neil says "Top of the morning" is it really
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 04:25 AM by The Backlash Cometh
the middle of the afternoon?

Coffeeeeee, I need coffeeeee....

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ThorsHammer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #73
120. You also couldn't get a name more Irish than Donovan McNabb
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #65
83. Surprise! There are even white-looking blacks!
I think that we can assume that most black Americans can trace their ancestry to AFRICA, therefore, if geography is a necessary factor for you, there it is.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #65
113. LMAO!!! "I knew a Black German man once."
Black History month is not a celebration of "skin color." It is a celebration of a culture. Sorry you don't understand this. If you are unfamiliar with the Black American culture, you are really missing out. There is a lot of beauty and richness that I would recommend you explore. From Langston Hughes to Jazz, to the strength of the Black churches, to Civil Rights leaders...and that's just the tip of the iceburg.

If you are having a difficult time understanding it's not just Black skin color, a social construct created by whites pre slavery, then refer to it in your mind as "African American Culture History month."
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #113
167. so now with your RACIST EVENTS you don't even allow non
african blacks? Jeese you are not improving your case. If its a culture, then why isnt it AFRICAN month? African fashion show (that sounds fun and I'd like to go) It's not a culture. It's a color. And one that excludes people of not the same color. I believe there is a term flying around these boards to describe that sentence. Know what it is?
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #167
171. You are confusing "segregation" with Respect for diversity & MULTIcultural
Again, "reverse racism" argument. What is so threatening to allow a few Historically Black colleges? Whites are allowed to attend those institutions, just as whites are allowed to attend the historically white colleges, which are about 95% of colleges.

I'm sorry that you lack such insight and education on this issue and believe African American History and celebrating the Black culture is racist.

How sad for our society.

Could you clarify your statement here?
I believe there is a term flying around these boards to describe that sentence. Know what it is?

What are trying to say?

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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #171
189. I am saying that you don't get rid of racism through more racism.
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Randi_Listener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #189
193. Where the fuck is the racism?
Anyone can attend these fucking events. Just because you are too myopic to go doesn't mean it's racist. Get a fucking clue.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
38. I'm white and no complaints here. I find black history as
something that we should all desire to know more about.
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
39. Because "Boondocks" is so damn boring
ok, that was so un-PC of me, but
I want political Aaron back.
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RPM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
40. because february is cold
thats why i was bitching...
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
42. There are 11 white history months...
... and anyone who bitches about 1 black history month is probably a slimeball racist.
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
43. Never heard anyone "complain about" it, personally...
...your pleadings here are largely the stuff of myth. I think the "idea" of this flamebait, horseshit thread is "stupid and ridiculous," actually.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. This is not a "flamebait, horseshit thread"
Why are you having such a hostile reaction? Are some of the posts threatening to you in some way?
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #51
66. Sure it is...the original poster had to have known that his or her....
...post was going to cause reactions from all ends of the spectrum. If it weren't for the fact that it was written in a way to cause controversey, you might be correct...but it wasn't was it?
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mark414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #43
138. it's not a myth
because the town i grew up in was filled with people asking questions just like that one, asking why we needed a black history month.

it's very real and very tangible and your denial only makes you part of the problem
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #138
162. Those who are not part of the solution, are part of the problem.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
44. Those are freepers asking that.
Enough said.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
47. because it forces us to spend a whole month ignorant
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
49. I've heard some persons of color complain about it too
as in "Gee, a whole month. How sweet." So for the other 11 months we can ignore them, I suppose.
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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. OK, time to resurrect this oldie...
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 10:22 PM by onager
And the two-legged "oldies" among us know who did it...

(Spoken Intro): One week of every year is designated National Brotherhood Week...

During National Brotherhood Week various special events are arranged to drive home the message of brotherhood - this year, for example, on the first day of the week, Malcolm X was killed, which gives you an idea of how effective the whole thing is...Here's a song about National Brotherhood Week:

Oh, the white folks hate the black folks, and the black folks hate the white folks;
To hate all but the right folks, is an old established rule.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
Lena Horne and Sheriff Clark* are dancing cheek to cheek.
It's fun to eulogize, the people you despise
As long as you don't let 'em in your school.

Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks, and the rich folks hate the poor folks.
All of my folks hate all of your folks. It's American as apple pie!

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.
Step up and shake the hand, of someone you can't stand,
You can tolerate him if you try!

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics, and the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems, and everybody hates the Jews.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
It's National Everyone-Smile-At-One-Another-Hood Week.
Be kind to people who, are inferior to you.
It's only for a week, so have no fear;
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!


* Sheriff Jim Clark of Selma, Alabama, was responsible for several violent arrests of Civil Rights protestors.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
53. Because History Month does not exclude. It is inclusive of all.
Black History Month, Black Expo, Black Fashion, Ebony fashion shows, these exclude people. They are for a select group only. If white people had the audacity to say "white fashion show" or the WHite Expo,The White College Fund, then you would see how exclusive that sounds. I would most likely be sued and picketed if I tried to label events like that.

It seems that black people want equalilty.(yes, I know-that is a whole other story) Promoting black only things seems to be devisive and non equal.

I know i will get a lot of crap for this answer but you wanted an answer, and most people have given you the politically correct answer which doesn't really answer your question.

Basically labeling it black this or that is a seperatist action. It does not seem to promote the concept of equal but promotes keeping black and white seperate.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. What?
First you say: "Because History Month does not exclude. It is inclusive of all."
Posted by burn the bush

Then you go on to say Black History month and other black events "exclude."

Apparently, your post title is not what you meant to say because you go on to say:

"Promoting black only things seems to be devisive and non equal.
Basically labeling it black this or that is a seperatist action. It does not seem to promote the concept of equal but promotes keeping black and white seperate."

You have totally missed the point. Do you realize how Blacks are excluded from the History books? Are you aware of the discrepancies between Blacks and Whites? Do you have any clue what institutionalized racism is?

Your "reverse racism" argument is a RW, Jesse Helms myth.

PLEASE EDUCATE yourself. How sad that a supposed Democrat would write such a thing.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. History month in my title. Meant to change that. But I meant regular
history,regular fashion shows, regular college funds, regular acting awards, They are inclusive of white, blacks, hispanics, all. Black History Month in itself, I don't have a problem with. I do have a problem with other events titled "Black" whatever.

I never said I was a democrat and I resent that because I have an opinion and answered the question with the truth that I am automatically now shameful to "the party"

Give me a break.
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Digit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
55. I never heard anyone complain before, either.
Who said anyone complained?
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Look two posts up. That poster is complaining
I hear it frequently. Politicians like Helms have also complained about it. The same bigots who opposed having a national MLK holiday.

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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. MLK day, I don't mind. If they called it "Great BLACK American day" I
I would.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #56
97. If you don't stop calling me names I will send an alert.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #97
161. Where did I call you names?
If you start personally attacking, I will make an alert.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #161
169. first you insinuated because i didn't agree with your narrow view
that i should be ashamed to be a democrat. Then you tell another poster to look up there 2 posts up. Then you called the poster 2 oposts up a bigot. I was that poster.
and feel free to file an alert because i won't agree with you.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #169
173. No, I didn't call anyone names except Helms and his Klan.
I did say, that I think it's sad, that a Democrat would not support Democratic core values, such as Civil Rights for Blacks, in so many words.

Yes, I do feel that is a sad thing. My opinion, and I have a right to that opinion.

If you are resorting to divert the discussion from the issue at hand to an ad hominem attack or bickering, I'm not interested.
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ProgressiveConn Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
58. It doesn't bother me one bit.
But I can completely see why people dislike black history month. Personally I feel that we should be working towards a society where there is no mention of skin color. To where it is no different than describing someone's hair or eye color.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #58
67. Apparently you are unfamiliar with...
concepts such as "celebrate diversity." There are cultural differences and the idea that we should be a homogenius eurocentric culture is xenophobic. If you have never been around the Black culture or read any black history, you wouldn't understand this.

Furthermore, we are NOT a color blind society. FAR from it.

Why would someone dislike leveling the playing field or celebrating the Black culture? Oh wait...I know...white supremacy.

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ProgressiveConn Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. I know we are not a color blind society.
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 12:11 AM by ProgressiveConn
Are you calling me a white supremacist because I don't think skin color is important? That is mind boggling.

Because I understand the oppression that the black community has gone through for hundreds of years and that still exists today I stand by my last post's title. I fully support not only black history month but women's history month and pro-minority movements of every kind so that they can recover from a continuing history of being relegated to the sidelines of American history.

I have no problem with people feeling the need to celebrate diversity. I feel it is a natural outgrowth of their oppression as a distinct group. I do however think it is silly. Diversity means more than just skin color. Should I be celebrating my whiteness? Should I be celebrating my brown eye'dness? Should I be celebrating that I have brown hair? In the long run our skin colors don't matter at all in any way.

Edit: I should point out that when I said "It doesn't bother me one bit." I was referring to black history month. Not the opinion that there should be some sort of white history month or something. Although if I was out here arguing that we should celebrate meaningless "diversity" (in mere skin color which IMO is no diversity at all who cares how much pigment is in your skin? Real diversity is MUUUCH deeper than that.) I would have to take the position that celebrating white skin is as valid as celebrating black skin. However if you take the position that a white-male pride is silly because we have been the oppressors not the oppressed while the feminist and black movements should be granted exception until they reach equal status with the white males in all aspects of society than it is perfectly reasonable to support one ethnic pride movement and call another ethnic pride movement pointless, silly, and demeaning to those who have been oppressed.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #69
107. Do you think Black History month is just celebrating skin color?
Based on your two paragraphs below, it sounds as though you think it's a celebration of JUST skin color.

*bold added
*I do however think it is silly. Diversity means more than just skin color. Should I be celebrating my whiteness? Should I be celebrating my brown eye'dness? Should I be celebrating that I have brown hair? In the long run our skin colors don't matter at all in any way.

Although if I was out here arguing that we should celebrate meaningless "diversity" (in mere skin color which IMO is no diversity at all who cares how much pigment is in your skin? Real diversity is MUUUCH deeper than that.) I would have to take the position that celebrating white skin is as valid as celebrating black skin.


It's not about celebrating "skin color," it's about celebrating the rich culture of the Black community and acknowledging their strengths and accomplishments that often go unnoticed.

White History is celebrated 11 months out of the year. The entire society is structured around the white culture. That's why we don't need to take one month and set it aside to recognize white history. It is celebrated every day!
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ProgressiveConn Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #107
144. Not 'Just' but since skin color is the identifying qualification
Hey I'm all about celebrating the strengths and accomplishments of the black community. I think the ideal situation is to have that done 365 days a year. But because of the WASP centric reality of American political history I support black history month completely for the time being. Until people celebrate the advances of all people equally regardless of the color of their skin.

But I am worried that black history month will eventually have a counter productive result. That instead of moving towards praising the accomplishments of all people every day it will keep for example teachers teaching the core of black history in Feb. But as it stands right now it probably increases the celebration of black accomplishments instead of limiting them and thus it should continue.

Eventually I hope that there is no need for minority awareness events such as Black history month. I just think we are probably a long way away from it even in the bluest of blue areas.

And yes it is about celebrating skin color. I don't see how celebrating BLACK history month can be interpreted as not doing so. In order to celebrate the strengths and the accomplishments of the black community one does classify them based upon the color of their skin. I don't see why this is a problem though. When celebrating a historically oppressed minority group it furthers the quest for equality. When celebrating the oppressing majority it does the direct opposite.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #67
88. you are still talking about "exclusion" You are saying "this is a BLACK
people show, festival or whatever. That is exclusive of all others and a seperatist attitude in my opinion. LIke I said, Black History Month, I can go with, Black expo, Ebony fashion show, Black college fund..that all screems racism to me. Why I will bet that you don't contribute to the United White People FUnd do you? United White People fund...see how stupid and exclusionary it sounds? You'd be suing me for just using that title.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #88
118. Your justification is the tired, old, flawed "reverse racism" argument.
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ProgressiveConn Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #118
165. To put it bluntly in one sentence.
"It is reverse racism, it is just that until minority communities reach complete equality it is not only acceptable but a positive thing for society."

I wish I could give an example of it working the other way around but the militarism of European culture combined with their technological lead made this a world wide standard. That wherever you went be it Africa, Asia, North America, Australia, the Euros became the dominant power and everywhere in the world people are still revolting against that in some way. So even in Africa just a few decades ago a peaceful policy of promoting black power was obviously a good thing as a means of combating the colonial legacy. As I've continuously said hopefully one day we wont need to continue this type of promoting minority (in power if not numbers) groups because Roman-Germanic culture will have truly excepted the concept of true equality for all peoples.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #118
170. racism is racism. Why is it flawed unless it is against blacks?
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #170
224. Racism against whites does not exist, thus the term, "reverse racism."
The term "reverse racism" is an illogical fallacy. Programs or institutions that level the playing field are not discriminating against anyone. They are alleviating discrimination.

http://www.peak.sfu.ca/the-peak/97-2/issue8/oped.html

I discovered a term in Webster's dictionary that annoyed me. It was something I considered to be a logical fallacy that could not gain popular acceptance. Then again, I am often accused of naivet.
Reverse discrimination n. (1969): Discrimination against whites or males.

My discovery of "reverse" discrimination was tempered by the omission of its linguistic siblings, "reverse" racism and "reverse" sexism. But I suspect that I will come across the latter terms one day since all three have already found a comfortable home in mainstream newspapers, movies, books, and radio. The corporate media is a virulent breeding ground for new "question-begging-appellatives" (QBAs), evident in banner headlines such as "Teaching reverse racism" or "Generous old lady or reverse racism?" in Time magazine. Simply put, to "beg the question" is to assume or take for granted something that should be proven. The rhetorician Jeremy Bentham defined QBA's as "the mode of using fallacy with the greatest effect, and the least risk of detection-namely by the employment of a single appellatives." The word "reverse" is a good illustration of this.

The definition of the word reverse reveals its deceitful usage when combined with the word "discrimination." Its definition reads as follows: Reverse adj.: acting, operating or arranged in a manner contrary to the usual; to imply change in order, side, direction, meaning. In combination with discrimination (or sexism or racism), "reverse" stealthily assumes that discrimination against whites or males is "contrary to the usual" or "out of order." Discrimination is said to be "reverse" when it is discrimination against whites or males. It implies that discrimination against whites, males, or heterosexuals is wrong and shouldn't happen. It concludes that while it is normal for whites to discriminate against minorities, discrimination against whites is abnormal. Woman of colour activist Carol Camper writes that, "Only privileged people who have never lived with discrimination, think there can be a 'reverse.' This means that you think it shouldn't happen to you, only to the other people it usually happens to."

Distinguishing discrimination against whites, males and heterosexuals with the creation of new terms is to conclude that two types of discrimination exist. If reverse discrimination is perceived as discrimination against whites or males, the word discrimination should be redefined as a difference in treatment or favour on a basis other than individual or merit as practiced by whites or males. But since discrimination can be practiced by anyone, the creation of a separate term for one sex or for one race is ludicrous. The insertion of the term "reverse discrimination" into everyday parlance by the mass media and celebrated court cases prompted author George Nelson to write, "The civil rights movement is over and conservative backlash has begun." Reverse discrimination was invented as a codeword by individuals with a narrow and bigoted viewpoint. It insinuates that the power is in the wrong hands, and the privilege to discriminate is no longer the luxury of the rich. But my trusty source of words, correct spellings and definitions-my Webster's dictionary-shows evidence to the contrary.






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ProgressiveConn Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #224
230. You're right.
I've used the term reverse racism regularly. Usually when telling stories of the rampant anti white racism we encountered in rural Jamaica while on spring break. My buddy and my ex (both dark skinned blacks) were targets merely for being with his girl and myself (both of us a pale white). I found it mostly funny until people got violent for us laughing at their ignorance. One man who my boy had arranged 'business' with kicked us off his land, threatened to shoot us, and used a whole bunch of racial slurs I had never heard before when my boy showed up with us in tow.

But you're 100% correct about the unfair nature of the phrase and I'm gonna go out of my way to never use it again.
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #58
77. Can you give me a clue?
Yes, I read your posts and I don't think you entirely get it.

Can you tell me what specifically we can do to have a society where there is no mention of skin color?

See there is not the mention of skin color but the attributes associated with it. Such as using darker colors to imply a lack of moral character....think about it.
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ProgressiveConn Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #77
87. Well
The first step to a color blind society is to achieve complete equality. Affirmative Action and minority power movements are probably the core of this. Which is why I have no problem with them. I think it needs to go further though. I'd personally like to see reparations paid out in the form of a massive marshallesque rebuilding plan for our poor urban and rural citizens. Not strictly limited to blacks or natives but since they would be dis proportionally effected by this it would definitely boost their standing in society longterm. Next I think we should consider insisting that the Democratic party nominate (if not require political parties by law) to nominate AT LEAST 13% black candidates, 1.5% Native candidates, 50% women, etc.

The second step is while that is going on to stress our similarities as people not our differences as black or white, male or female. It is a long road to achieve equality let alone a color blind society. However I think that in the long run it should be our goal as a society. It is one of the things that makes the Internet so great; as long as you want it to be it is a completely color blind society in microcosm.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #58
79. Should African-Americans be ashamed of beng black?
White Americans have numerous holidays for celebrating their ethnic roots. St Patrick's day is more than a drunken spree for some of us. The other white ethnic groups all have days for celebration. Of course, some whites are ignorant of their roots. Too bad for them.

"Black" Americans rarely know their exact ethnic roots. They'd probably like to celebrate, oh, "Yoruba Day." But the slavemasters--especially here in Protestant American--consciously tried to destroy the slaves' links to African culture. And honoring African-American contributions to US culture is also worthwhile. They were here long before most of my ancestors & helped build the country we know (physically & culturally). "Flash of the Spirit" by (white) Yale professor William Farris Thompson is a good start on eliminating that nasty ignorance.

Then there's Ishmael Reed, the African-American writer who also celebrates St Patrick's Day--because he's also Irish-American.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #79
90. Because St Patricks day is not an exclusive white holiday
there are blacks with those roots and the holiday is not called "drunkin WHITE Irish People day" And the majority of people who bother to celebrate it at all are probably not Irish.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #90
145. Why should St Patrick's day be an exclusive white holiday?
Plenty of African-Americans (& Latinos, etc.) have Irish blood. And genetic studies in Ireland show more ties to North Africa than to "The Celts". Anybody else who wants to celebrate is welcome--as long as they don't vomit on my shoes or drive drunk.

Neither is Black History Month exclusively black. There's a lot for all of us to learn & celebrate.


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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #145
172. It should not be and it is not.
they said it was a "white" holiday. I said it is not.

Black History Month is not my complaint. It's the other black this and thats that bother me. Read my other posts to hate me appropriately on this issue.
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ProgressiveConn Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #79
109. Of course not.
Just as someone shouldn't be ashamed to be white.

Note: Below there are mentions to both skin color and culture. It is important to note that they are not the same and that they are not always even related.

And yes I know it is impossible for just about any black American whose family has been here since pre-civil war to track their exact ethnicity down. Not only due to the lack of documentation of where people were kidnapped from but because of limited gene pools on the plantation where it really didn't matter if you were a Tutsi or an Igbo you found love and companionship where you could find it in between being raped by whites. So not only does the black-american community lack a link to their national/tribal culture of their long dead ansestors but it goes further into an area where someone might be 1/20th Ashanti, 1/20th Igbo, 1/20th San, 1/20th Kikuyu, 1/20 Yoruba, 1/20 Native-Seminole, 1/20 English, etc. However the same can be said for "whites." I couldn't imagine how many different european ethnicities are represented in my family. So "to bad for me" right? Since I'm sure we both agree that the "white pride" movement is racist and pointless.

I'd have to say that my diverse european heretige has probably helped create the lack of importance I have on ethnicity. If I had grown up celebrating my fictitious-100% Irish heretige I might feel differently and I admit that.

Though I don't think that

And yes I think white ethnic holidays are COMPLETELY ridiculous. I'm at least partially Irish (like 1/4th) and I wont be celebrating St Patrick's day for many reasons. Chief among them is my distaste for celebrating ethnic holidays. In my opinion St Patrick destroyed a good portion of Irish culture by his mass conversions of 'Celtic druids' or however you wish to term pre-Christian Irish people. However I recognize that at one time the Irish were an oppressed people in America and that only by grouping themselves together into a single bloc could they achieve equality (Ethnic-solidarity is to Ethnic-equality movements as Organized Labor is to the economic-equality movement). Remember that in the late 19th century many "whites" were not considered "white." If you were Irish or Italian you were treated like second class citizens just as blacks, natives, Hispanics and to a slightly lesser extent women are often treated today.

However I would say that both Italians and Irish have achieved complete equality in American society today. At least in my area of the country. Being Italian or Irish would have zero negative effect on running for political office, finding a job, etc. This should be our goal for all minority groups. No one thinks of Italians as non-white yet how often are other Mediterranean people denied "whiteness." Ever tried to tell Americanized Mediterranean people apart? Can you tell a Sicilian from a Spaniard? A Greek from an Arab from a Berber? I can't tell the difference I'll tell you that much. Yet the Sicilian, Spaniard, and Greek will be considered "white" to most Americans and the Arab and Berber will be considered something else.

The last two paragraphs say a lot to me about American society. First that it is not your skin color that makes you "white" at all. And that "white" in this context really just means "achieved equality" in American society. This would need to be addressed in some way as it would seemingly exist in this way as a way of dividing white from black from 'red' from 'yellow.' Somehow we need to shift the focus away from grouping people based on skin color. Most who would argue the same basic thing would argue it should be shifted to being an "American" vs "Non-American" however I see this as just as divisive in the long run; that Nationalism is nothing more than another word for Tribalism but describing a slightly different way of organizing your society. We need to focus on the humanity of all people.

As long as we continue to divide ourselves ethnically it might be impossible to achieve true equality for ethnic minorities. Thus it creates the need for us to further the equality movement not only by ethnic-solidarity amongst minorities but also by slowly moving away from divisive ethnic labels and practices as equality approaches for that group of people. I think that while this is a natural process it is slowed down by people who stress "divisive diversity."

Thus I don't feel it necessary in the long run to "celebrate diversity." That in reality our goal should be to "understand and accept diversity as part of humanity and to celebrate humanity."

It is the difference in a "realist" and "idealist" view of achieving equality. The realist will stress things like ethnic-solidarity and affirmative action while the idealist will stress the total unimportance of skin color. As is nearly always the case the best approach generally lies somewhere in between. And before someone makes the expected "You just want minorities to assimilate into white culture" comment I'll state that I really don't see a use for "preserving cultures" as much as I see a need for recording cultures and bettering all cultures. For example: If we as Americans had bettered our culture by adopting the best of native customs instead of treating those customs as a barbaric and devilish culture to be eliminated we would be in a MUCH better for it today. But because we all suffer from ethnocentrism and see our own way as preferable to another's way we need to preserve cultural differences in the short term as a means to insure that in the future when we are able to slowly adopt a consensus culture using the best parts of different cultures from around the world. Not as a replacement for a culture's parallel trait but in addition. Sure the Puritan work ethnic is a positive cultural trait though so is the Algonquin view of how much one should "Work."

Thus I prefer to see our country as a "melting pot" not a "tossed salad." We are seeing white America adopt parts of "black culture" over the last 20 years. That is a huge first step in enriching American or better yet human culture for all people to share.

Sorry for the long rants I know they probably wont even be read in entirety but I feel I need to explain myself as I am hurt by being seen as a white supremacist. I am regularly attacked by racist or ignorant whites (including family members) who see my membership in the NAACP as being some sort of ethnic treason. To be attacked by those fighting for equality because I don't see skin color as important makes me feel like I am being attacked from all sides.

Which is not unusual. I have no problem telling blacks who say things like "I only date black men/women" that their attitude is no better than when a white person says "I only date white men/women." IMO it is racism regardless of who says it.

Importance of stressing: Humanity > Multi-Culturalism > Ethnicity > Skin Color.

PS: As for ROBERT Farris Thompson I might take you up on that and read "Flash of the Spirit." A good friend of mine took his "The Mambo: an example of Black Art" class and raved about him and the class. I don't believe he teaches classes anymore though he still holds his endowed chair and mastership of the art college. I'll have to take a look cause if he does maybe I'll crash a lecture or two. =) Do you feel that the ethnic perspective in "Flash of the Spirit" is enough to hold someone's interest who cares a lot about and is interested in ethnic perspectives of all kinds as a means to enrich his own perspective but has very little interest in or knowledge about art of any kind? She raved about him but she is an artsy person. I am not. =)

If you read all this I appreciate you allowing me to explain myself. Thanks.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #109
123. You are arguing for a melting pot which is assimilation
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 11:37 AM by ultraist
Assimilation=melting pot=homogeneous society. Who will win out? The white dominant culture!

MULTICULTURAL=tossed salad or "quilt" This is the idea that civil rights scholars promote. The melting pot is an outdated and xenophobic concept. It's what the fundies are promoting.

You opposed multiculturalism in one line, by saying you are against "tossed salad" and then contradicted yourself somewhat by this statement. "Importance of stressing: Humanity > Multi-Culturalism > Ethnicity > Skin Color."

How do you maintain multiculturalism if you assimiliate (melting pot)?

Furthermore, why are you extracting out culture from ethnicity? These are interwoven. Is Italian food cultural or ethnic?

I do agree though that humanity is greater than culture. Celebrating diversity or multiculturalism does not interfere with the idea that humanity is the greater factor. This is true in the US as well as on a global level.

Why should we water down the various cultures and become one homogeneous culture, a melting pot? How boring. Not to mention, the white majority would totally white wash the culture, being 80% of the population.

Respect for diversity =MULTIcultural!

Should we also think assimiliation rather than Multiculturalism with regard to ethnic resturaunts? No more Indian, Chinese, Mexican, Italian, etc?

You cannot be for assimiliation (the melting pot) and for multiculturalism (tossed salad or quilt). They are two opposing concepts.
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ProgressiveConn Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #123
134. I have a different take on the Meltingpot vs Tossed Salad analogy.
You said: "Assimilation=melting pot=homogeneous society. Who will win out? The white dominant culture! "

Hence why I prefaced the argument with the requirement of actual equality being realized first. You must keep this in mind if you wish to analyze my comments on the theory of America being a melting pot. Then it is possible for us to truly combine the best parts of all cultures into a greater world culture where there is still room for differing opinions on what is best but where ethnocentric insistence that a person's own culture is best for everyone is eliminated.

I would agree with you that in today's world you don't maintain multiculturalism within a melting pot. However... Hmm the best way for me to explain this is probably to further the analogy of a melting pot. America has always been a melting pot IMO. It is just been a flawed and slow heating one. Best way to visualize it would be to think of the American melting pot as macaroni and cheese. Sure you might put several kinds of cheese into the pot with the macaroni and they might slowly melt together but in the end the "Core" is still the macaroni. In America our melting pot's "Core" has been WASPism. The macaroni does not melt only the cheese.

A society that is an exemplar of equality would be represented by fondue. Their is no "Core" all the cheeses melt together creating a beneficial society. You will taste all the different flavors but good luck separating them into their original cheeses again. Something that can not be said in regards to the Mac&Cheese, unequal society. Throw it under some water (representing a traumatic event say such as 9/11) and you're left with Macaroni.

I'm going to attack your analogy. When you refer to ethnic restaurants you make the assumption that one has to be a member of an ethnic community to see value in that community's culture. My favorite Italian place back home is owned by a Pakistani friend of mine. This is just my point. It is the melting pot that allows this. The salad analogy says "Chinese run Chinese styled restaurants, Indians run Indian styled restaurants, etc" The melting pot theory taken to its fully developed state says that it is not weird or even curious that my 2nd generation Pakistani friend owns an Italian restaurant.

Next I'm going to attack your closing remarks. I do not see the melting pot theory as equal to minority assimilation into WASP culture. I see it as a unique combination of flavors that produces a new, unique, and wonderful new taste. My favorite example is lets pretend the Puritan-English had a true acceptance of equality for all peoples. Then immigration to New England began where they met the various Algonquin tribes who also are assumed to be a truly tolerant society stressing equality of all peoples. Wouldn't it have been nice to see puritan work ethic combined with Algonquin hostility to greed and selfishness?

Importance of stressing:
Humanity > Multi-Culturalism > Ethnicity > Skin Color.

What is beneficial for humanity in the eyes of all humanity is best. If that is not possible (as in any unequal society) than a focus on multi-culturalism is better than focusing on the importance of a single ethnicity or mere skin pigment.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #134
142. Are you confusing SOCIETY with culture?
When you refer to ethnic restaurants you make the assumption that one has to be a member of an ethnic community to see value in that community's culture.

My statement about respecting Multiculturalism in no way presumes that one has to be a member of that culture to see value in it. You are extrapolating illogically. I couldn't appreciate Jazz and see the value in it?

I can appreciate and experience other cultures but I would not be so presumptious in saying "I know and understand what it is like to be Black, Jewish, Gay, etc as well as a Black, Jewish or Gay person." There IS a difference.

I do not see the melting pot theory as equal to minority assimilation into WASP culture. I see it as a unique combination of flavors that produces a new, unique, and wonderful new taste.

Allowing different cultures to exist and enjoying and appreciating them all within ONE SOCIETY is Multiculturalism . It is NOT creating one culture from bits of other cultures. Whose religion would we use and whose would we omit? Whose food, language, music would we use?

You also stated we should have a "world culture." I disagree with that. I don't think we should have ONE World culture by taking bits of other cultures, eliminating other aspects, to create one culture. Again, whose religion would we use? Whose music?

We HAVE numerous different cultures that exist within our US SOCIETY. Each of these cultures should be respected and appreciated. Diversity is a good thing. ONE CULTURE (melting pot) is ethnocentric.
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ProgressiveConn Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #142
156. Possibly poor comunication on my part but no I am not at all.
My statement about respecting Multiculturalism in no way presumes that one has to be a member of that culture to see value in it. You are extrapolating illogically. I couldn't appreciate Jazz and see the value in it?

Well I completely agree with you. Anyone can appreciate anything regardless of ethnicity. That was the just point I was making. That in the melting pot you don't lose Italian resterants they are just not necissarily owned and operated by ethnic Italians. So we agree great. =)

I can appreciate and experience other cultures but I would not be so presumptious in saying "I know and understand what it is like to be Black, Jewish, Gay, etc as well as a Black, Jewish or Gay person." There IS a difference.

Well I'd add a caveot that everyone SHOULD be trying to understand what it is like to be of a different group. But in the end you can't even speak on what it means to be "white" if you are white. You can only speak on your perceptions of other people and on what it means to be the individual that you are. Nothing more.

Allowing different cultures to exist and enjoying and appreciating them all within ONE SOCIETY is Multiculturalism . It is NOT creating one culture from bits of other cultures. Whose religion would we use and whose would we omit? Whose food, language, music would we use?

The statement was in response to the attempt to equate multiculturalism to the salad analogy and the melting pot analogy with assimilation of minorities into white society. Whose religion, food, language, and music would we use? Why all of them of course.

Again I made the distinction in reference to your analysis of the analogy I used. Let me further it a little.

Attached to the idea of multi-culturalism is the negative connotation of the forced acceptance of unacceptable concepts. Think of how conservatives CONSTANTLY use the arguement that the seperation of church and state somehow violates their religious freedom to oppress others.

While attached to the idea of assimilation is the negative connotation of the forced cultural expansion intended to eliminate a group's cultural beliefs.

You also stated we should have a "world culture." I disagree with that. I don't think we should have ONE World culture by taking bits of other cultures, eliminating other aspects, to create one culture.

I do think we should have a "world culture" where some ideas are rejected by all of humanity to serve the good of humanity. Basically take any negative view of human nature and those are your examples: Greed, Violence, Hatred, etc. In this setting there should still be acceptance of different ideas just as in my 99% white town there is room for Italian, Greek, Polish resterants alongside American steakhouses and burger joints. I think the idea should be to expand the collective cultural possibilities of humanity instead of the narrow cultural groups who must "clump" together to preserve their culture, positive and negative aspects included. Which in turn prevents the betterment of all cultures or at least greatly slows it down.

We HAVE numerous different cultures that exist within our US SOCIETY.

I completely agree. I just feel that a single culture accepting of the very traits that the individual cultures are attempting to preserve is a better option. Maybe then I would see white kids sitting with black kids sitting with asian kids sitting with hispanic kids in elementry school lunchrooms. Instead I see a table of six black kids, a table of six white kids, etc.

Each of these cultures should be respected and appreciated. Diversity is a good thing. ONE CULTURE (melting pot) is ethnocentric.

I hoped my previous posts would have explained that the ideas represented by the melted cheese are still there they just happen to be more fluid. That concepts some would tie to one culture are equally valid when adopted by someone who originates from a different culture. There was a time in America where Jazz and Rock were seen as strictly black concepts. Yet through the melting pot it is no longer even worth mentioning when a whiteboy listens to either.

Thanks for holding me to my guns and making me explain myself. =)
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #156
180. Ok, thanks for the clarification and civil discussion!
I think we are arguing semantics at this point, if you are not proposing we omit "certain" portions of certain cultures to create one culture.

It sounds like you are promoting an appreciation for all cultures and encouraging people to learn, explore, & experience different cultures, rather than only their own. I totally agree with that.

I think you had a different definition of melting pot than how I have understood it to be traditionally used. It's often associated with assimiliation, a watering down of cultures to melt with the white dominant culture.

It seems you are also essentially saying, "not judged by the color of their skin, but the content of their character." But that does not mean, don't celebrate Black History or the distinct strengths and characteristics of the Black culture. Or any other culture for that matter.

Thanks again for the clarification!
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #109
207. I heard Robert Farris Thompson speak in Houston.
"Flash of the Spirit" is his major work & is still in print. You state 'We are seeing white America adopt parts of "black culture" over the last 20 years.' In Thompson's book, he shows how "American" culture has been shaped by African culture since the first Africans were brought to these shores. Please read it.

Do you think ANY holidays are worthwhile? Or are they just distractions from the workaday Protestant-work-ethic world? In any of these ethnic celebrations, there's an element of pain & sorrow; history is like that. But there's also a lot of fun that can be shared. Many of the celebrants are not poor & downtrodden, but they still enjoy their background. And, next weekend, they might check out a Mozart concert in the park.

Here's an example of ethnicity in Houston: The International Festival concentrates on India this year, but the entertainment includes people from many countries, as well as the region: Hear Latin funk/worldbeat/rock en espanol group Ozomatli. Experience the Afro-Latin jams of Ricardo Lemvo & Makina Loca. Groove to the sounds of blues legend, Taj Mahal. Jam to Texas favorites Delbert McClinton and Teresa James. Witness the nephews of the late Nusrat Fateh Ali Kahn, Rizwan-Muazzam Qawwali perform Sufi devotional music from Pakistan. And dont miss the Afropean sounds of Zap Mama, the cumbia beat of Grupo Fantasma, or the rafter-rattling voice of Shemekia Copeland. Houston's ethnic mix keeps getting more mixed & most people here enjoy it. I realize it might be different in the more tight-assed cities of the north.
www.ifest.org/ifest2005/entertainment/performer.cfm

Concerning the "Celtic Druids" of Ireland, a new edition of "The Atlantean Irish: Ireland's Oriental and Maritime Heritage" by Bob Quinn is now available. The first edition is long out of print & heinously expensive on Alibris. It's only available by mail--but it might make your head explode. www.lilliputpress.ie/listbook.html?isbn=1%2084351%20024...

I realize that you don't consider yourself "arty"--but there's more to life than politics.


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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #207
220. Speaking of cool cultural festivals...
I'd like to go to this festival sometime in New Orleans:

http://www.neworleansonline.com/neworleans/history/jazz...

The Jazz Funeral

"One of the more distinguished aspects of New Orleans Culture is the Jazz Funeral. Architect Benjamin Henry Latrobe noted in 1819 that the New Orleans Jazz funerals were, "peculiar to New Orleans alone among all American cities. The late JazzMan Danny Barker writing in his book Bourbon Street Black noted the funeral is seen as "a major celebration.The roots of the Jazz Funeral date back to Africa. Four centuries ago, the Dahomeans of Benin and the Yoruba of Nigeria, West Africa were laying the foundation for one of today's most novel social practices on the North American Continent, the Jazz Funeral."
When slaves were brought to America, the idea of providing a proper burial to your fellow brother or sister remained strong. As time passed, these very same concepts that were rooted in African ideology became one of the basic principles of the social and pleasure club. The social and pleasure club guaranteed proper burial conditions as did many fraternal orders and lodges to any member who passed. These organizations were precursors to the concept of burial insurance and the debit insurance companies.

The practice of having music during funeral processions, Danny Barker said, was added to the basic African pattern of celebration for most aspects of life including death."



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ProgressiveConn Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #207
236. Flash of the Spirit will be part of my next book order. =)
I'm unsure about holidays in general. I mean I enjoy getting together with the family etc however I kind of see holidays as a copout. If something is important enough to dedicate a day in reverence to it shouldn't it also be important enough to revere 365 days a year? I'm not sold on the idea but the fact that it one group's hero to dedicate a day to is another group's villain. Columbus day is my favorite example of this. Just get your average Italian and Native Indian together to discuss the validity of Columbus day. =)

As for them getting in the way of the workaday world I must say that I'm not a 9-5 plus overtime kinda guy. Gimme a plot of land to feed myself with and a roof over my head and I'll live out my days by eating what I grow. =)

As for the book about the Irish I think I'll have to pass on it unless you can promise me it isn't just another insane Atlantis book. =) Last one I spent money on I only got a few pages in before my head did explode and I had to put it down never to pick it up again. =)

I know there is more to life than politics. I'm just a mild addict I swear! =) It just happens that people tend to be drawn to things they are good at. And I don't think I've ever met anyone with LESS artistic ability than myself. Tone deaf, can't draw stick figures, and am the worst dancer on the planet. =)
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #236
241. I hope you enjoy Flash of the Spirit....
And go see Thompson in person if you get a chance; his lectures are real eye-openers.

"The Atlantean Irish: Ireland's Oriental and Maritime Heritage" is NOT about Atlantis. It's about Ireland, not as a remote outpost far from the hearths of "Western Civilization," but as part of the "Atlantean" community--cultures along the Atlantic coast of the European subcontinent & on the islands offshore. Many of these cultures are termed "Celtic"--although Bob Quinn explains why that's not the most accurate term. The Scandinavian cultures are also related, as the history of Ireland reveals, He extends the realm of influence south to Morocco--especially important during the high period of Islamic civilization. Quinn lives in an Irish speaking part of Conamara (Western Ireland); years ago, he noticed a similarity between the local singing styles & music he heard in Morocco, plus similarities between Arab sailing craft & the old-fashioned ones still to be seen in Galway Bay. He made a series of films on these connections--rediscovering many scholars who'd noted them previously & wrote the first edition of this book.

Barry Cunliffe, professor of European Archaeology at Oxford, wrote the introduction to this edition. His "Facing the Ocean: The Atlantic and Its Peoples 8000 BC-AD 1500" covers much of the same ground in a more scholarly manner, intended for the interested layperson. He salutes Bob Quinn as an inspired amateur who points out the big picture that some academics miss as they concentrate on their potshards.

Art is another way of looking at the world. Even if you're not a "creator" yourself, do expose yourself to it from time to time. Some of it will begin to make sense. (All the books I've mentioned have lots of pictures!)

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ProgressiveConn Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #241
262. Ah I see. I was worried that he was making the argument
that Eire was Atlantis. Much saner, I'll give it a shot once the library gets it in (on order just checked =).

I must admit that outside of the written word my exposure to different forms of Art is rather limited. Sure I appreciate the occasional visit to the theater or museum like anyone but to be honest I'd usually rather watch the Mets than go to the Met. =)
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
59. just more "whiteous indignation"
to use the term coined by another Duer...who was it, so I can give due credit? I used to ask my mom, when I was little, why there was a MOther's Day and a Father's Day but no Kid's Day. She told me, in her infinite wisdom, that EVERY DAY was kid's day. So I agree with the poster above who said every month is White's month.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #59
68. I agree too! Dean's statement on Black History Month
Note: I posted the entire text of this issued statement since it's not a copyrighted press article.

Governor Dean's Statement on Black History Month
DETROIT--Governor Howard Dean, M.D., issued the following statement today on the beginning of Black History Month:

"Today marks the beginning of Black History Month. For centuries, African-Americans have made important contributions to our nation-from Langston Hughes and Billie Holliday to Booker T. Washington and Muhammed Ali to Frederick Douglass and Thurgood Marshall. In my state, we remember the pioneer Rev. Alexander Twilight, believed to be America's first African-American college graduate and the first African American state legislator. More specifically, though, this month is a chance to remember the American heroes who fought for civil rights and a chance to consider how much more we have to do.

"My own memories of the battles for civil rights in this country begin with a Sunday morning in September 1963. I was 14 years old and just beginning the 10th grade. I remember very well the tragic bombing in Birmingham and the senseless deaths of those four girls: Denise McNair (11), Addie Mae Collins (14), Carole Robertson (14), and Cynthia Wesley (14). These girls were my age. I knew then that America needed to change.

"It was an important time in our nation's history, and thanks to the tireless efforts of leaders like Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Rosa Parks, Malcolm X, as well as countless others less well known and less remembered, our country began to change. The intervening decades have seen the fruits of their labor: the growth of the black middle class, improved race relations and increased opportunities for all minorities.

"America still needs change though. We must never forget the things that these young girls died for -- equality for all Americans, programs for affirmative action that ensure access for all Americans when it comes time to apply for a job or for a place in college, and the freedom for everyone to live ordinary lives free of hate and discrimination. Forty years after the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church, we still have much work to do, but I have confidence that working together as a community there's nothing that we can't accomplish.

"Civil rights now in the 21st century is not just about equal legal rights, it is about economic justice -- ensuring equal access to jobs, capital and credit. It's about ensuring that every American is able to own their own home and, if they desire, their own business. As Dr. King said, we can never be satisfied until every American is equal in opportunity and voice.

"This battle for economic justice and equal rights is not one for any one people -- it is a constant battle that we must all engage in-for it is only when white people and black people and brown people vote together, that's when we make true progress in this country.

"We need to continue to talk openly about race in this country, and the ongoing struggle to ensure equal rights for all Americans. We need to talk about justice again in this country, and what an America based on justice should look like -- an America with justice in our tax code, justice in our health care system, and justice in our hearts as well as our laws.

"This has never been and never will be an easy struggle. But it is one in which we must prevail. As Carter Woodson said in 1926 as he founded what at the time was called Negro History Week, 'What we need is not a history of selected races or nations, but the history of the world void of national bias, race hate, and religious prejudice.'

"Therefore, it is particularly appropriate that this Black History Month coincides with the start of the 2004 election season. At a time when we salute people like Fannie Lou Hamer, the four little girls in Birmingham, the Freedom Riders and others, there is no better way to honor them then to do what they fought and died for the right to do.

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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
60. Because they don't realize that "white history" is the history class they
slept through in high school because they thought history was "boring."*

*"Boring": the stupid person's word for anything they don't understand and don't want to take the trouble to understand
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #60
94. I'm tired of hearing about the WHITE history books too
Certainly I did my share of sleeping through history but I definately remember black people in my history books. No, it did not focus on black people. Maybe because each year history continues to grow. That History book doesn't. Things are dropped as new history fills the book. Just by numbers, I would say that there are much fewer black people in history recognized for accomplishments because there were much fewer black people.
I could take a book on US History and fill it with facts about all of the US. But my book is only 300 pages so it won't cover every fact about every state. Now I could also have abook about each state. Those books could be 300 pages each too and still not be complete.

In each of the state books, I would have much more info on that state then I would have in the Combined state book. In the larger combined state book, I would have had to throw out an awful lot of info from those 50 state books to fit it into my one US combined book of the same size.

So I'm sorry if the History books don't give a disporpotinate amount of material on Black History for you. But in the scheme of all the history...

However, there are black history classed for those who want to find out more. Black History classed-I'm ok with that. Black History month-ok with that. MLK day-good with that. Black expo, black college fund, United negro this and that--not so ok with those.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #94
127. Sorry, but racism does exist, even in many of the history books
Ummm...no, your statement here is incorrect: Just by numbers, I would say that there are much fewer black people in history recognized for accomplishments because there were much fewer black people.

Blacks were and ARE written out of many history books. Many history books ARE written from a white male eurocentric perspective.

There IS a disportionate focus on white male achievements in our society. There ARE discrepancies created by racism.

Are you saying racism doesn't exist and permeate our instititions? Even Senator Reid, one of the more conservative white Democrats, talked about insideous racism and how it is a major social ill we need to discuss and address.

Please explain WHY 14% of whites earn over 100k while only 5% of Blacks do.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #127
154. I have not said anything about racism not existing
what i have said is that in my opinion using the"black only"
implication of the Black expo, black college fund, the United Negro this and that is in my opinion a seperation of races and is totally helping to keep rasism alive. It deleberaly excludes whites and others. It does not promote equality, it does not promote acceptance, it does not promote diversity policies.

As for the school books...like I said only so much history is gonna fit in the same size book year after year. As far as whats kept in and whats kept out, well after seeing the religious right put creationism into the books, you may be right about whats going into the books.

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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #154
158. Sorry, MANY history books are racist.
You are arguing that any programs, colleges, events, or holidays that are built on the concept of Affirmative Action promote racism.

Again, "reverse racism" underpins your justification.
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beyurslf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
63. I always thought the other 11 months were for white history.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
64. No white people I know complain about it....
...and I live in Alabama. Now that's not to say that some whites don't complain...I'm just saying that nobody I know has anything bad to say about it.
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tinonedown Donating Member (329 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
70. Why is white history month stupid and ridiculous?
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 11:55 PM by tinonedown
I certainly don't think that of black history month, which should be more widely celebrated by the way. I get sick of just 10-second soundbites and lack of participation by all Americans.
My great-grandmother was held in maid servitude for 16 years in Holland. Her 'pay' was room and board. I would like American children to be reminded of all injustices so they will not be repeated. It is part of their history and heritage. Her life here wasn't much better, in fact she died here under much of the same conditions as she lived in Holland.
Sorry for the tirade, but when I think of how she lived in Holland and America and you now say "stupid and ridiculous"? Because of her skin color?
(Self-edit)Maybe we don't need a white history month, I just was offended by your tone. Maybe your tone was just a reaction to rednecks bitching about black history month.
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EEgrad2003 Donating Member (70 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #70
75. Reasoning behind black history
I think people forget the reasoning behind the establishing of black history month. It's not to separate one group from another group. The main reason behind the establishing of black history month is because the black culture was lost through many years of slavery. Most descendants of the black race cannot trace their heritage back to their original source of origin. When Africans were enslaved and shipped over to the Americas, they were treated as livestock. Many slaves were raped, ripped away from their families, and mixed with different African cultures to the point that it created an entirely different culture. That culture, with advancements being so limited, had few proud moments to draw from. Black History month allows that culture to have something to be proud of. Black people have built to make this country strong and have received far less credit compared to their other cultural counterparts. It's not about excluding a race, Black History is way to include black people and culture into the America's culture. It's not that White history month is stupid and ridiculous, but white history is seen AS America's culture.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
72. "WE" give "THEM" a whole month & "THEY" still complain!
How ungrateful!

Imagine - a whole fucking month!

Now, should black people kiss their butthole before or after they wipe it?

A WHOLE MONTH! Just imagine!
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jojo54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
76. The 3 major TV stations don't pay much mind
It always seems to me that they wait until the month is half way over before they start to acknowledge that it's black history month. I think African Americans deserve this recognition. Let's not forget the great blacks of our time, including Dr. Christiaan Barnard who performed the first heart transplant. Pretty ballsy.
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bdot Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:16 AM
Response to Original message
78. Why not General History Month?
"I think the idea of a "white history month" is stupid and ridiculous."

Personally I think the idea of a black history month is just as stupid and rediculous. It just leads to more racism.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. Why not history every day?
There are books out there, you know? And educational TV. And there's stuff on this-here "Internet" thing.

Racism is in the heart of the beholder. Listening to some blues or zydeco might be good for you.
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bdot Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. Exactly
Make it history every day then. Whatever it is.
Hey, ask your cable provider for the History Channel. :)
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #81
91. I wasn't proposing history every day as an alternative....
To Black History Month. I was recommending the study of history as a method of banishing ignorance.

I already have the History Channel...
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jeffrey_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #80
119. "listen to the blues" How ironic is it that racist people
enjoy blues music? Or is that an oxymoron??
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #119
148. What in my post makes you call me "racist"?
I was counseling the idiot to broaden his education generally, but I haven't said a word against Black History Month.

And I've been listening to the blues since I heard Lightnin' Hopkins many times her in Houston. Mance Lipscomb came down from Navasota. And Clifton Chenier invented modern zydeco while he lived here.
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jeffrey_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #148
157. Sorry for the misunderstanding....
I wasn't calling you a racist. I apologize.

I was just speaking in general terms of how ironic it is that racist people listen to and enjoy blues music.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #148
160. yeah, what? This poster said nothing racist.
and was only suggesting that people learn to appreciate diversity through music. Using the "You are a racist" is old and tiring. I bet the poster who accused you of being racist is one of the people who swore OJ was innocent. Now that's racist. Couldn't be guilty coz he was black, my ass.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #160
164. The poster who "accused" me has apologized.
I took no offense. You seem to be assuming a lot.

I enjoy Black History Month even though I'm pasty-faced. Please, celebrate your own background but try to be open-minded.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #164
176. I am quite open minded and when I celebrate my own background
wait a minute, what the hell. I don't celebrate my background. As a matte of fact I wouldn't know where to go to celebrate a white only background except maybe the klan. BUt I guess people like the KKK who celebrate only their ethnic/color background are racist. I wonder what that makes people who aren't white that celebrate their own culture/ethinic/color only and to the exclusion of all others?
Why is that not racist?
Only because blacks are a minority?
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #176
188. Tthe KKK does not merely celebrate their color, they're white SUPREMACISTS
You are confusing white supremacy with celebrating diversity. First, you confused segregation with celebrating diversity, now you are confusing white supremacy with it.

Do you understand the concept of WHITE SUPREMACY? Maybe this would help to clarify things for you, with regard to the KKK.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #188
197. Look I'm just saying that if I celebrate my diversity in the way in which
you suggest is just celebrating diversity, I would end up being sued.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #176
192. How is "being white" a "background"? n/t
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 03:00 PM by tx_dem41
I am white, and I have no "shared experience" with most white people. Black people on the other hand have a whole heritage of shared experience (that has sadly, mainly been imposed on them).
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #192
198. I have no background coz I'm white?
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #198
201. Excuse me, can you show me the logic that got you to that question?
How do you have an shared experience with whites in this country that come from Australia or New Zealand or Georgians, or Armenians etc. purely because of you being white?
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #201
214. I am not without background simply because I am white.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #214
215. Are you understanding my posts....
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 04:24 PM by tx_dem41
I never said you were. Logic 101, dude. But your background that you do have doesn't have to do with you being white. If you think it does, tell me how?
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jeffrey_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #160
203. WTF are you talking about....
I wasn't talking about anyone specifically.
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jeffrey_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #78
114. Ignorant much? The lack of true African American history in our school
system and in general is one of the main contributors of racism.

Afrian American history should be given more attention in our history classes. It is such an important (ugly, but important) part of our history.

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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 04:16 AM
Response to Original message
82. Too broad a brush
While you do qualify it in the message text, the subject line...well, you know what I mean.

I am white and would never complain about Black History Month.

In fact, as an ardent music lover, I am saddened every time I ask a person (black or white) "Do you know who Ella Fitzgerald was?"

I get far too many "no" responses (black and white). We could fill in any name in that question, but the sad truth is that blacks (and whites) are rapidly losing connectivity with the recent past.

I would assume that people (black or white) would at least know the names Harriet Tubman, Booker T. Washington, and even Marcus Garvey. How about Frederick Douglass?

This is not an ethnic issue.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 05:30 AM
Response to Original message
85. I've never heard anyone complain
:)
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markus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 05:56 AM
Response to Original message
86. Gradman, if there' s Mother's Day and a Father's Day, why isn't there
a Children's day?

Because every day is children's date, my dear.


I don't remember which sappy comic I saw that in (probably Family Circus), but that about sums it up.
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CornField Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
89. My kids often complain about Mother's/Father's Day
"Why isn't there a kids day?"

Hubby and I are quick to point out that *EVERYDAY* is kid's day. ;)

Although I've never heard anyone complaining about Black History Month, I believe I'd tell them the same thing.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
92. I've heard few complaints. But there are some--even here!
Generally, I assume they are ignorant fools.

Black History encompasses the histories of all the African groups brought here as slaves--but almost none of their descendants know from which groups they sprang. The slavemasters tried very hard to destroy those links. Thus, no Kongo Day, etc. African-American history is also featured--& it's essential for understanding Ameican history.

There are numerous chances to celebrate our Euro-American roots--if we remember them. "Whiteness" is an odd concept; check out Noel Ignatiev's "How the Irish Became White."
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
93. Doesn't Bother Me. I Like It
I learn stuff i wasn't taught in school. I took history classes between the mid-60's and the mid-70's. Lots of stuff to know about that wasn't in the textbooks in those days.

I'm glad they do this.
The Professor
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erpowers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
96. Miseducation
I think many white people think African Americans have not contributed to American society or society on a whole. White people do not know how many thing in American society have been invented by African Americans. White people are probably unaware of the contributions of African Americans to American society. I think white people ask for a white history month because they do not think about the fact that white people have white history year.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
101. I don't know. I enjoy it. It's like getting a free history lesson
about all the people we have cut out of our 'official' history
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #101
103. That's What I Said, Too, Leesa
Just above your post!

I think it's cool to learn stuff in my late 40's that i probably should have already been taught long ago.

I enjoy BHM.
The Professor
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William Bloode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
102. Hmmmm....... when i was in school everyday was "white history day"
I like the idea of black history month. It has broadened my understanding, increased my knowledge base on many things that i was never aware of due to lack of focus on such issues in school.

I think all we got info on in my school days was, Harriet Tubman, Booker T Washington, Rosa Parks, and Martin Luther King.
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NNguyenMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
104. The US was built on the backs of black slave labor, they deserve at the
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 10:11 AM by NNguyenMD
very least a month of acknowledging their achievements and the fact that they had as big a role making America what it is today as white people did.

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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
106. White people suck.
Especially those of us who bitch when we're on top.

Seriously, though, most white people don't complain about Black History Month. Most white people don't give a shit.
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jeffrey_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
108. white culture is American culture, but American culture is NOT white...
culture.

I think they have a problem with this sentiment.

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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
121. There are 11 white history months.
We hardly learned about black history at all in high school -- and I graduated in 2002. I'm glad there's a Black History Month.

I'm convinced that ignorance of black history is a big part of why so many white people are totally insensitive about racial issues (and this is coming from a white person).
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ernstbass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
122. I live in the South and I haven't heard anyone complain
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #122
129. I live in the South and hear people complain
How can you miss racist remarks in the South? One can be half asleep, not really paying attention and notice them.

Maybe you haven't heard people say blatantly, "we should end Black History month" but other arguments, such as the "reverse racism" argument would preclude ending Black History month.

I've heard both. I've also heard both even on this board. Pathetic.
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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
128. Of course,
there is nothing wrong with Black History Month. My problem, is why isn't there a Native American history month also? Talk about getting fucked over and being integral to the history of the American nation. (There are also probably several other disadvantaged groups that could have their own month, but I think Native Americans should get first priority.)
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #128
135. National American Indian Heritage Month is November...
Irish American History Month & Women's History Month are March--Go, Irish-American women!

Hispanic Heritage Month runs from September 15th to October 15th.

Asian Pacific American Heritage Month is May

Months for German-Americans & Italian-Amerians also exist--plus others, I'm sure. There doesn't seem to be one "formal" calendar.

Get out the word!


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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #135
159. Thanks
Didn't even know.
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Baconfoot Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
132. "White people" don't. It's not a property of "white people" that they
complain about Black History Month.


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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #132
137. Yes, they do--generally the sad ones who've lost any ethnic roots.
There are plenty of celebrations for us Euro-Americans.

Perhaps they need a "Melanin-Deficiency Month." August? Remind everyone to wear their sunscreen....

(Didn't the Fire Sign Theater have a bit about White History Month?)
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Baconfoot Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #137
199. You miss the point. It's not a property of apples that they are rotten.
It's not something which makes an apple an apple.

Here are two different questions:
Why are apples rotten?
Why are some apples rotten?

The first question could, I think even in English, be read just to be meaning the second question. I grant that.

But let's try to use clear language when we talk about race.

If we really want to ask why some white people take a certain stance, let's ask why SOME white people take a certain stance and not why "white people" take a certain stance.

"White people" don't. It's only a subset which have the property. And whereas there are cases where a property, even possessed only by a subset of a set can nonetheless be an essential property of the TYPE of thing which is a member of the set, that ISN'T the case with white people here.



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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #199
209. Not all white people complain about Black History Month.
But how many non-white people do?

And we've got at least one live one here....
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
141. My ONLY complaint about Black History Month
is that all that history needs to be squished into a month (the shortest one, too!). Why isn't the history of Black Americans part and parcel of our history, period?

I think it's great that by having Black History Month, some stories are finally being told. But I'll be happy when we reach the day that it's not necessary to designate a month in order to have the history of the US include all of its citizens.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #141
146. But BHM is not about squishing it all into one month.
I don't think that anyone advocating Black History Month ever intended for black history to only be tought during this month. I believe the purpose of BHM is to highlight their history, not confine it to one month. Because it's so underrepresented, and leaving things as they are would likely change nothing, setting aside a month where it is focused on serves to make sure that black history is never forgotten.

I, too, look forward to a time when something like Black History Month wouldn't be necessary. I hope we'll see that in our lifetime.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #146
166. I Doubt It Though
I share your sentiment, but without BHM, we wouldn't hear it at all. I'm 48 and i don't see a time when i'll see the need for it go away.

Unfortunately.
The Professor
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #166
178. I wasn't arguing against BHM
My point was I don't think it confines black history to one month, which is a gripe some people have. I think its purpose is to highlight black history, and is not saying "There's no need to study black history the rest of the year".
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #178
179. I'm Agreeing With You
What i was saying was that i don't think we'll see the need for it go away in my lifetime. I wish it would be unnecessary, but i doubt we'll advance that far before it's my time to trip the mortal coil.
The Professor
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #179
185. I apologize.
I misunderstood. I'm involved in a few threads in multiple forums at the same time right now, and the kiddos' naptime is ending soon, so I'm a little rushed :)

I don't think it will, either, sadly. And, going outside of the scope of this thread, I don't even necessarily think it should go away even if it were to stop being necessary. I don't think a celebration of something has to be necessary to give it validity.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #185
190. Same Page!
The Professor
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #146
186. I know that wasn't the intention
however, too often, that ends up being the result. Let's people stick that stuff in a convenient package and think about it for a quick month. Then congratulate themselves and forget all about it again.

If you know what I mean...
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #186
204. That's unfortunate if the it is abused that way
"stuff in a convenient package." I read an article that FOX news was capitalizing on BHM to push their station but not really providing any quality info. Surprise! Basically equates to tokenism using BHM.

But the other aspect to Black History month is to never forget. Just as we should never forget the Holocaust or the Genocide against Native Americans, we should never forget the attrocities Blacks have faced since slavery. So it should not be ended.

I also don't think people would argue ending George Washington day or Linclon's birthday because they are adequately discussed in the history books.

I have heard discussions of ending Columbus day though because of the dishonesty represented by this myth and the omission of the genocide of Native Americans.

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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #204
226. Oh, I'm certainly not advocating BHM being ended
More dreaming of a world where it wouldn't have had to be invented in the first place, you know?

Absolutely, if having it means just a few more people are exposed to a bit more expansive history, it's a very good thing. But I don't want that history to be segregated to a month a year. It'd be good to have what's taught as US history include more than the dead white guys. I'm sure we're getting there. I'm sure we've come quite a long way (definitely since my school days, lol!).

I think we're agreeing, but I'm not making myself clear.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #226
233. I think you are making yourself clear and I agree!
My post wasn't as clear as it should have been, I didn't mean to direct those comments "at you," specifically! LOL!

Same page! :thumbsup:

Such is communicating on a forum, eh?
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
195. White History Month: January, February, March, April, May, June...
...and so on.

The whole point of Black History Month is that most history is "white history", even when it isn't trying to be.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #195
200. and where is that broadcast? Did it make the news? I didn't even know
it was white history month again. Hold on, while I get my wooden teeth and get ready for the parade. NO the rest of the year is NOT WHITE HISTORY MONTH. Not that I care that there is no OFFICIAL white history month. I;m just tired of hearing that the rest of the months are white history month when they are NOT in any way celebrated, recognized or honored as such.

Nor would I want them to be. We slept through history classed for a reason.
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jeffrey_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #200
206. Keep lying to yourself...
Face it, AA history is not given the recognition and attention it deserves. It is minimalized so severly it is a joke. Maybe because its an ugly reflection of our tainted history. We are too busy trying to make things look all rosey.

People with your attitudes are the ones who are always trying to minimalize the history of AA's in this country.
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sonicx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #200
208. Do you think the "Congressional Black Causus" is racist too?
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 03:55 PM by sonicx
Magazines and TV stations that aim for black consumers?
Sections in bookstores for black authors?
Black studies college majors?
Historically black colleges?
Democratic Underground's 'Black' forum? (yup, we got one)

Just curious.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #208
211. Read their post further up
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 04:06 PM by ultraist
That poster states that 'all black events,black fashion shows, magazines, negro college funds, and black colleges etc. ' are racist. post #53

The LOGICAL conclusion to your question about the CBC would be, yes they would think that it is racist, because they would consider it "seperatist."
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #208
213. i wouldn't go as far as to say they are all racist but yes the promote
seperation implied or real just by the name only. The original question was about black history month. I said I don't include it necessarily but that the answer to the question of "why people don't like black history month" (sorry,however the original post was worded)

and my answer is; real or perceived it is seen as promoting seperation of the races rather than unity. It is seen as "we want equality, we want equality," in voice but in action "this is OUR fashion show" "this is OUR awards" (or whatever) which is seen as a clear preference for seperation of the races. I guess, it seems to be saying one thing and doing the other and that is how I believe it is perceived by myself and many of the other people who find offense in segregated functions.
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sonicx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #213
229. So, are you willing to tell groups of minorities (not just blacks...
Asians, Indians, Gays, Hispanics, etc. who all have organizations) that they are racist and bigoted?
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #229
231. well, i don't think it would be too brilliant of me to try to tell a group
Edited on Thu Mar-10-05 10:10 PM by burn the bush
of anyone that I think if their group is race based and excludes others of a non same race or color that it would, or at least percieve to be racist and promoting a seperateness. How could it not?
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #231
234. I dare you!
Walk into a Black church or a NAACP meeting and say, "you are promoting separateness" and then define separateness. If you feel YOU are right and all of these groups are WRONG, why not?

Go ahead! See what happens. HEY! You could protest the Million Man march that is being planned. Go for it! Carry a sign!

LMAO!!!
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #234
237. duh, and I would get the same response that i got here
People ask for the truth but don't want to hear it.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #237
240. People ask for the truth? You're just giving your opinion, correct?
Surely, you aren't arrogant enough to KNOW that what you speak is the truth?

Me? I give opinions. I hope that they are strong enough and well-researched enough to sway people. But, I would never be arrogant enough to KNOW that I speak the Truth.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #240
245. it is my opinion as i have stated before many times but I also believe
Edited on Fri Mar-11-05 10:07 AM by burn the bush
it is the correct answer to the question. I have not seen a different answer besides, their stupid, bigots, freepers, whatever. But that is not the answer. The answer is in the implication that it implies. No one seems to be upset if you have say an African Culture Festival. That would be lots of fun, have foods, dances, etc from another culture and does not shout "this is for blacks only" As it would if one had a "black festival"

do you understand what I am saying? Now of course on these threads I've went as far as to say the "black this and that" are downright racist. That was mostly in response to being called a racist, bigot, shame to democrats etc. I don't know if I would in acuality classify it as racist, but I definatly classify it as not promoting unity, but promoting a seperation of our people.

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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #245
247. I understand what YOU are saying....
...but you undercut your point when you talk about having a "White" festival. There is a strong argument to be made that blacks in this country have a shared experience that whites do not have. Thus, you see a preponderance of "white" subgroups having festivals such as "Irish festivals" (just had one in Dallas), and "Czech festivals" (have one down in West, TX every year). That's because those subgroups (Irish and Czechs in these examples) have a shared experience in this country (just like blacks do).

As to your not feeling welcomed, I have been to many "black" festivals and I have never felt anything but welcomed. It sounds like you are bringing up a feeling that comes from within you (and I'm not implying anything evil with that comment).
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #247
249. I get what you are saying too
Edited on Fri Mar-11-05 11:17 AM by burn the bush
I'm sure you are right that my reluctance to go is MY problem. I guess that some of us have somewhere in the back of our heads the scene of a group of black kids saying "yeah c'mon into our neighborhood whitey" with taunting laughs and jeers.

Now before ya get pissed at that statement, what I mean is the sentiment of that statement. You know comics will use that kind of a line, you'll see it in movies etc. It's a definate "don't come to our neighborhoods" idea.

I know that these events are most likely not in a predominately black neighborhood by the way. But if you have this understanding in the back of your mind that you are not safe or welcome in a black neighborhood, and you have an event that somewhat advertises that its a "Blac" this or that, then I think maybe you relate that to a black neighborhood or black gathering and relate that to not welcome.

I'm not saying that is where my own reluctance to go comes from. Never thought about it til your post. I am just supposing that this is perhaps the circle that those feelings might come from in an individual. So i might not go not because I would be afraid necessairly but not welcome. I would not waste my money and time to go to an event that I might be noticibly unwelcome. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. No, I don't know my story. Like I said, I never really thought about it til you said it but I'm pretty good at seeing what makes people tick.

The funny thing is I think a simple name change on some of these things would take the whole issue away. It's definatley the exclusionary sounding part of it that always turns me off when I hear it.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #249
251. Do you feel that an "Irish festival" is exclusionary to non-Irish?
I can assure that is not the case. So, I disagree where you say you wouldn't spend your money at a place where you are unwelcome. You in fact admit that you haven't been, so how would you even know if you are welcome or not?

I appreciate that you discussed your thoughts, and won't flame you for them.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #251
253. have you read my other posts?
I've said repeatedly that I don't have a problem with a cultural event. An Irish Festival or an African American festival-ok good to go

A Black Festival-not so good

You see African American is cultural to me but Black or white is racial.

and yes, I appreciate you holding back flames simply because I have said what is truth at least to me for the question asked.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #253
254. That wasn't the point of my question...
I'm trying to understand why you feel a "black" event is exclusionary to "non-blacks", yet an "Irish" event is not exclusionary to "non-Irish"? I don't see the difference.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #254
255. I guess an Irish event would equate to an African American event in
my book, but a black event equates to a white event in my book.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #255
256. Not to be snarky, but...
something tells me that you would feel excluded at an "African-American" event as well.

Refer to my previous posts on why (IMO) "black" and "Irish" events are equal.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #256
257. actually no, i don't think I would be uncomfortable there.
It's clearly a cultural event. Now have I been to one. No, but then I have only been to one germanfest. Was greatly disapointed. Maybe it got better later in the day. Our city doesn't have an adequate space for events, so it splits it up. Like the carnival rides would be one place, the food courts another, the entertainment and beer another and I'm not talking walking distance.

so I think all of our festivals suck. I lived in a river town that had awesome festivals, so now going to these are just so disapointing. Now you're gonna ask about the festivals in the river town. Lets see...something rivers festivals, octoberfest which was more of a fall festival than anything else, they had cival war reinactments and American Indian festivals. Would I have went if they had an African American festival? Yep you bet.

I actually love other cultures. I would love to go to events that truly submerge you into the culture. But I don't want to travel x miles and sit in a tent eating a brat, potato salad, and beer. woot woot.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #257
259. All the "black" events I have been to have been..
cultural events as well. Not sure why you think differently.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #237
243. LMAO!!! You are so well educated on this subject btb!
Edited on Fri Mar-11-05 08:39 AM by ultraist
NOT!
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #243
246. dude, whats the sufject, It's a simple question of why white people are
bothered by "black only activities" (actually it was black history month, but I believe the cause is the same) Apparently you have no clue as to why it is and won't face reality when it is shown to you. It's simple. It excludes purposefully and that appears to be not consistenat with the claims of equality but rather highlights a perceived desire of seperatness. I guess it's a "can't have it both ways" thing.

so I would say that it is you who are not educated on THIS subject and closed minded to what the answer is.

Now, another question may be is that the right attitude to take? Perhaps not. And there is where the extreme education that you think you have may fit in. But it does not change the fact that those activities by the names that they are given, promotes an exclusion of non blacks (or hispanics or whatever) And that in turn only promotes more misunderstanding and hostility.
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #246
248. Celebrating black culture is not exclusionary
I, as a white person, have gone to black cultural events, and have at times been one of the few if only whites there, and have been treated perfectly well. I go to these events because of my interests in arts and culture.

I now happen to be married to a black woman, and am often in social situations, sometimes quite large ones, where I am the only white person. I am treated well, even by those who don't know me at all.

As someone else pointed out, there are all kinds of cultural festivals for all types of ethnic groups in this country. Their purpose is not exclusionary, either, but to celebrate aspects of shared culture that certain groups have.

African-Americans are in the unique situation of not knowing what country in African their ancestors come from, as the slave sytem in the US did a more thorough job of eradicating African culture than almost anyplace else in the African diaspora.

Their heritage and contributions to this country have been largely ignored and excluded from much of our history. I think Black History Month is a good way to get all Americans in touch with this part of American culture, particularly for those who have little contact with African-Americans. It is also good for African-American kids to see all the contributions their culture has made lined up in a row.

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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #248
250. Hi, ya gotta read all my post to get the whole picture
but
I don't have a problem with cultural events African or other.
I have a problem with the real or perceived racial seperateness that the name implies. "black this or that"

I realize that my reluctance to attend is MY problem.

not trying to sound crappy
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #250
258. It's a black thing ... and you can understand if you take the time
Edited on Fri Mar-11-05 12:01 PM by kwassa
I think a point you need to understand that when the word "black" is used, it is about ethnicity more than race. Most African-Americans share a common experience that is their history in this country. At the same time, 95% of African-American culture is the same as white culture, particularly white culture from the South. It is more American than anything else. Most AfAms want precisely the same things that most whites want out of life.

The idea of black cultural events is to build black pride, and a community spirit in a positive fashion.

There is still great racial separation in this country, as we are not well-integrated socially even if many workplaces are now more integrated. New housing is becoming more integrated, but many older areas are still segregated due to inherited housing patterns from the days of blatant discrimination. We still have a long ways to go in this area.

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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #258
260. I understand what you are saying and I think black pride
is important especially in the young. I'm only trying to answer the original question as to why white people feel that way. I think it's the terminology.
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sonicx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #250
261. "black" is cultural
Edited on Fri Mar-11-05 12:48 PM by sonicx
Black History Month celebrates US black culture and history because it's harder to connect to Africa itself. First, because they were forced to leave (their ancestors that is). Second, because most don't know which country their ancestors came from. Most whites, however, know if their from specific countries like England, Ireland, or wherever and may have ideas of who specific ancestors were.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #248
252. Good post, Kwassa!
Thanks for the contribution.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
216. IMHO There is no good reason to complain about Black History Month
I think it's a wonderful idea to pick a month and focus on this very pertinent subject.
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chlamor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
228.  Trade Black History Month for Land Reparations
You can't eat a month. You can't get water from a month. Black history month amounts to zero and is just shadow boxing. It's the politics of comfort and posters go up the month goes by and everyone returns to the gross inequalities. Education is not the answer. Make it real, give land.

Black people need/deserve massive material recompense starting with land.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #228
235. 40 mules and an acre=4 acres and a house in today's terms
They screwed the Native Americans too. Why would they PAY WHAT THEY OWE? Live up to an agreement? WHO? Bush? The Repuke Lite Democrats?
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #235
238. not gonna happen no matter who is in office.
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