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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:45 PM
Original message
CNN (Breaking): Wide Spread Abuse Of Women In Sudan Found
"Breaking" :eyes:

stupid fuckers. no thanks to the U.S. Government.

oh that's right. all our people are spreading OBGYN's love and democracy in Iraq

way to go CNN (your only YEARS too late with this 'breaking news')

:argh:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. the abuse is appalling, no doubt
But using words to describe like "primitive" and "backwater" to describe other nations isn't the best. As Americans, we are imbued with a strong sense of our own superiority, and such words signal that. I'm sure if you think about it you would agree that we as Americans would do well to present a more humble attitude toward the rest of the world.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I stand by my use of primitive and backwater in reference to Sudan
Edited on Wed Mar-09-05 05:00 PM by slackmaster
It has nothing to do with my superiority. It's just a fact - Relative to most of the rest of the developed world Sudan is a shithole.

I'm sure if you think about it you would agree that we as Americans would do well to present a more humble attitude toward the rest of the world.

Humble, schmumble. I will not act conciliatory to a country where women are abused in large numbers.

Here are some other facts about Sudan:

Infant mortality rate - 64.05 per 1000 live births

Life expectancy at birth - 58.13 years

HIV/AIDS infection rate for adults - 2.6%

Literacy rate for Sudanese over 15 years old - 61.1%

Unemployment rate for 2002 - 18.7%

Source: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/su.ht...
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tubbacheez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Maybe our 20% wage gap between men and women is small enough...
... to ignore. Maybe our rate of domestic abuse is so much lower than Sudan's that we can "go after" them first, before cleaning up our own act.


Sure, one could point out that there are societies that treat women far worse than we treat women in America. That much is true.


But if one lives in America, participates in American society, votes in American elections, has access to American data on gender inequality, and claims to champion women's rights... where would one's efforts be most productive: America or Sudan?

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I would have to say America
I as an individual have no power to change things in Sudan.

I think we as a nation should leave Sudan alone and let them develop in their own way at their own speed.

I hope that makes my attitude clearer for you.
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tubbacheez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Sudan is a "shithole" but that's ok? Did I read correctly?
"I think we as a nation should leave Sudan alone and let them develop in their own way at their own speed."


Maybe I'm misreading your posts, but I saw you call Sudan "primitive" and "backwater" and then reiterate that opinion. You said that Sudanese society's large-scale abuse of women motivated your bluntness.

Yet you also say you think Sudan should be left to develop itself on its own.



Are you saying that being primitive, backwater, and abusive to women is ok for Sudan?

I don't mean to put words in your mouth, so let me know where I may've misunderstood. But I saw you make a few negative value judgments about Sudan, then claim these judgments are objective fact, and then say it's alright that this is so.

The train of thought seemed inconsistent to me.

Again, sorry if I don't get what you were trying to say.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Being a developing nation is OK, abusing women is bad
Mmmmmmmmmmmkay?

It's not the fault of the Sudanese people that their country is economically underdeveloped and oppressive.

The US is not in a good position to try to police or change social policy in a country where a lot of the people hate our guts.
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tubbacheez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thanks, I'm with you on that.
I appreciate the clarification. Text-only discussions have a weird way of getting muddled sometimes.

Cheers!
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. I believe we need to be aware of what's going on in the
world around us. "Globalization" is more than just an economic term. It reflects the fact that our economy and our culture, indeed we as individuals, are more than ever linked to the lives and cultures and economies of people around the world.

Democrats and other progressives have traditionally maintained a solid track record and a clear philosophy on domestic issues, but we've dropped the ball on matters like this one. Hiding from the issue isn't going to help matters. It's like the environment - inescapable, a part of your life whether you want it to be or not.

I don't envy very young people in this political climate. There is so much to learn and there are so many challenges that must be met. But the alternative - pretending they don't exist, or that we have no responsibilities beyond our borders - is to leave the playing field wide open for the philosophy of Big Business - the Republicans, after all, haven't been shy about formulating ideas on foreign affairs.

If domestic issues are ones forte, then that is what one should concentrate on. However, progressives MUST get a clue and some ideas as to how to approach foreign policy and global economic issues.

On this matter, I think educating oneself is step one. Working with the UN, even if only making a small donation from time to time, is another. Bugging Congresspeople to look at the situation is a third.

No doubt other DU'ers will have more and better ideas than mine - but we must not bury our heads!
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. I disagree
It's possible to denounce policies without words that signal superiority. "Primitive" in comparison to what? A backwater? Meaning inconsequential, insignificant.

I don't at all dispute your outrage toward the policy. But for you to make that point effectively it isn't necessary to condemn an entire nation and its people in terms that, whether or not your recognize it, signal your own sense of cultural and political superiority.

Anyone from a developing nation has heard such terms to refer to their countries with great regularity. It's the sort of language the American corporate executives and US government officials used during the first three quarters of the twentieth century to speak of nations and people's whose lands they dominated both economically and politically. Those are the precise terms that have long been used to refer especially to nations populated by people of color. You may consider my caution mere political correctness, but remember that this website is visited by people from around the globe. I simply ask you to consider whether you want them to see Americans, even on the left, as ethnocentric and disrespectful.

Language is full of meaning that even the speaker doesn't always recognize. Bush unthinkingly used the word "crusade," yet that simple word caused great offense in the Muslim world. I am more sensitive to such issues since I have lived outside of the United States, but I can assure you any Sudanese, including the women who are the victims of human rights abuse, would feel gravely offended by hearing themselves referred to as a "primitive backwater." It is for you to decide if that matters to you.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. OK, I see your point
I tend to have a knee-jerk reaction against behaving in what some might perceive as a politically correct manner. My feelings have nothing to do with the skin color or religion or culture of the people who live in Sudan. I know a few people who have been there. Iran and Iraq look like thoroughly economically developed, modern countries by comparison. Their people are far better educated, healthy, and affluent. Non-muslims in Sudan have been oppressed for decades, and the various Muslim factions continue to oppress each other as well as women.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I know you intended no offense
I just thought I'd point out to you how some from developing countries would perceive those words.

Cheers.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I sincerely thank you
I have had a hard day and needed some poor developing country to kick around. Sudan fit the bill perfectly.

BTW - One of my fundamentalist Christian coworkers left a flyer in the lunch room that says "Bibles desperately needed in Sudan".

It claims that Christians are being systematically persecuted and even crucified there. I guess they think bibles will fix the problem.

:wtf:
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. No! This can't be true!
But, but . . . Freedumb is on the march! President Chosen-By-God said so!!!
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well, it's not like the Jackson trial or anything
Or Lacy Peterson, or swift boat vets.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
6. This is only 'news' to CNN, apparently.
I've known about it for at least 2 years. Stupid shits!

:eyes:
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. They ran out of Michael Jackson material
x(
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Heh.
That would be funny, if t weren't so true. *sigh*

:pals:
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. This is new? People in the Sudan have some amazing
practices, euphemistically called "female circumcision", more properly known as Female Genital Mutilation. Of course these practices are not limited to the Sudan. They are practiced throughout parts of Africa and are spreading even into Europe and Indonesia. Some countries, such as Egypt, have outlawed the practice but it's deeply entrenched in the religious philosophy and growing fundamentalism tends to argue against its disappearance. Some of the most extreme variations are practiced in the Sudan and lead to lifelong misery for the women. Childbirth is an agony and normal sex is impossible.

Also, polygyny is practiced there, which can lead to poverty for individual women; prostitution is widespread; and well-meaning efforts by the State to start up new agricultural collectives include some very bad law, which rob women of the fruits of their labor. Hopefully the laws can change and be expanded to allow greater economic participation by women.

Every source I've read comments on the beauty and hospitality of the Sudanese people. But centuries of religious superstition, poverty, drought and war have caused conditions for women and girl children to reach disturbing proportions.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. In fact, it dates back to Pharoanic times
and is practiced by Christians, too.
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. At least! However we do not live in Pharonic times. No
amount of ethical relativity theory can get me to feel that this is OK - and I've read a lot of sociology and comparative religion books. One of course must be sensitive to other cultures but this bothers me, deeply. I do believe that midwives are at least being educated in sterilization, so forth. So less people might die from infection - nevertheless I think it's BAD. But, progress will be made slowly because there is absolutely no way to change people's minds a la George Bush, by trying to force the issue.

I'm curious - probably you, like me, deplore the Bush Administration's refusal to fund women's health needs due to some countries' pro-choice stance? Innocent women are suffering needlessly, often from childbirth-related problems - we could help with relatively little money but DON'T. I think it's a CRIME.

You? Any ideas how we can help?
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Oh, don't get me wrong, I think it's a horrific practice
It just bugs me to see it attributed to "Muslim fundamentalism."

I'm not sure what we can do in the case of Sudan--economic sanctions? It seems those would primarily hurt the people we would be trying to help.

Our biggest problem is the "pro-life" repukes who only care about people before they are born. Until we have true progressives in office who are willing to work with the U.N. on these issues, all our concerns about them will likely go for naught.
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. No - it certainly isn't limited to Islam - the practice also
occurs as you said among some Christians and also animists and others throughout Africa. People should not generalize.

However, it IS spreading within Muslim communities that have gone to Europe and within indigenous Muslim communities in Indonesia. I fear this MIGHT be a reflection of growing fundamentalism, perhaps in reaction against Western culture.

Economic sanctions - no, I agree with you, they only hurt the helpless. Frankly I am at a loss, except through supporting the UN.

Ditto, women's reproductive issues in general! It would be an excellent field for young women, students, to get into, IMO.
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thedailyshow Donating Member (695 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
22. a day too late, a dollar short, CNN
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-05 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
23. I recall the UN wanted to establish a special court for Sudan,
but were blocked. Also this:
"The United States on Friday backed prosecution of Sudanese suspected of committing atrocities in the troubled Darfur region but opposed bringing them before the International Criminal Court."
--AFP, Jan. 21
'Coz de Yuw-Enn'z gunna bee duh veeheeclee of duh Antah-Crahst!
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