I have a strange question for some DUers -bear with me, it's political in

[LynnTheDem]

the end, but first I gotta just ask the strange question.

Assume for this you have never met the person in question, never spoken to them, don't know them from Adam.

You only see someone walk by...and they're wearing an article of clothing, such as a team cap or team jacket of a team you despise, or jewelery such as a "hippy beads" necklace, or a large crucifix necklace, or a pro-war or pro-life or pro-choice tshirt, or tattoos of the Confederate flag or a swastika, and just by the person's article of clothing or jewelery or tattoo, thought to yourself, even if only for a split second:

"I wouldn't like that person" or "what an idiot" or "I sure hate _______ers" or "glad that's not my kid/spouse" etc?


Do you think your attitude towards that person would/could be affected consciously or subconsciously if you did anonymously deal with them for a short period of time, such as helping them find items they're looking for in a shop where you work as a clerk.

[liberal N proud]

1. Are you talking abou the guy in the picture of this thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3245002

[LynnTheDem]

6. Nope. I have no person whatsoever in mind. This is absolutely a

hypothetical person.

For example myself; I saw a man in front of me at the supermarket; on his arm he had a swastika tattoo. I disliked him because of it. He may be a nice man who was once into that crap and isn't any longer...but why hasn't he had it removed (I asked myself)...perhaps he hasn't the money or there's a health thing involved...(so why doesn't he wear long shirts! (I asked myself).

And he probably picked up on my feelings of distaste, even if my stance and body language towards him was totally sub-conscious on my part.

I prejudged the man because the symbol he was displaying was abhorant to me. A swastika is an extreme symbol though; how about "hippy beads" or "crucifix" or "team cap" items?

[Skip Intro]

2. When I end up behind some biga** Suburban or the like with a "w" sticker

I think to myself, or even say outloud, to noone in particular, "what a f***ing moron."

If I saw someone with a "w" shirt on, I'd probably react the same way.

Hero-worship of a war-criminal bothers the hell out of me.

[LynnTheDem]

8. Do you think, in a brief face-to-face with such a W, that your feelings

could be apparent to them (your body language, tone of voice etc) even if you weren't consciously reacting towards that W symbol?

[fudge stripe cookays]

9. Yep.

I have to deal with idiots on the job all day. I know what bumper stickers they have on their cars in the parking lot.

Believe me, it's obvious.
FSC

[Skip Intro]

17. yes

and I'm not so sure I'd be able to endure an encounter, however brief, without consciously reacting to it.

[ewagner]

3. Actually this happens a lot to me

and I go through a strict thought process which includes:

first, immediate revulsion at the offending symbol....

second, a quick mental analsys about what other meaning that symbol might have to the person wearing it, if any.

third, an quick mental assessment(stereotype) of the type of person who would wear the symbol for any of the reasons above.

fourth, a quick mental assessment as to whether the symbol or person wearing it had ANY effect on my life or wishes whatsoever, and, finally;


decision to confront or mind my own business....

[Bertha Venation]

4. I get the attitude in spades, but I think my view of that person could be

quite easily changed back into reality if I would just think a little bit. :shrug:

[RandomKoolzip]

5. Anyone who says they don't judge someone by their appearance is a liar. nt

[readmylips]

7. I talked to a punker...

I needed directions to a place and the guy next to me at the gas station was a green-hair spiked up punker, and I asked him for directions. We spoke for a little bit. He was very polite, gave me the right directions and I even asked him how he got his hair to stand up like that. We laughted together and went on our way.

I was also at the mall and a woman needed a battery boost, when I saw her Viva Bush sticker, I told her I didn't have cables and in my head I told her to F*ck You and drove off.

[BiggJawn]

10. As a clerk? no.

That's called "professionalism", Lynn.

Look, you could come into my shop wearing a coat made out of the Stars and Bars, or looking like a Skinhead, and as long as you didn't start going off about "N******" or Jews, or Liberals, I'll give you what you need and take your money. it's all green, and Asshole dollars pay my bills just as well as Progressive dollars.

Off the clock, though? Doubtful. You look like a Fundy/Nazi/Redneck Racist/Whatever, I'll avoid you.

NOT Punkers or Goths, though. My daughter taught me about those mostly good folks.
I think it disappoints some of them when they realize I'm not shocked at their appearance, though...

[Cleita]

11. Are you talking about teenagers dressing up in their

outfits that state what rebellious club they are in, or maybe someone in ethnic gear, like a turban? Quite honestly it doesn't phase me. However, I do give adults a second look over if they are dressed as someone who might want to do me harm, like someone wearing gang regalia.

[Mnemosyne]

12. Depends on their position.

The new therapist I was "assigned" has tons of Dobbs material all over his office. I asked him if he considers himself a fundy and he proudly said yes. He admires the Lunatic shrub and our "government". Needless to say, I don't see him anymore than once in awhile, enough to get the meds I need to control supposed severe bipolar disorder (actually it's symptoms of mercury poisoning I have been diagnosed with finally) No, can't get another therapist here, small town. I had been going 35 m. away and had a closet fundy there too! What's up with fundy therapists?

I complained that he would be biased against me due to my political views and was basically blown off, told it would not affect his evaluations and just take my meds (koolaid). I've dealt with issues from past, but they insist on therapy to get meds.

I didn't judge him based on looks, but on the material present in his office. He looks like anyone else that makes a good living.

on edit> and I love to see and talk to the Goths and the punks. It's good to see where they are coming from. Rednecks scare me.

[SmokingJacket]

13. Yes, of course.

I think the important thing is to BE AWARE of your prejudices, so your behavior is as little affected by them as possible.

And to try not to have them in the first place, if you can...


On edit: I think the case of someone wearing a swastika is very different from someone in clothes you happen not to like. A person with a symbol of hatred is ASKING to be judged; same with bumperstickers.

PS Every goth kid I've met is a total sweetheart.

[ultraist]

14. Absolutely!

People have schemas/constructs in their subconscious of different types of people and what they represent. With first impressions, opinions are based on something the person says or something in their appearance.

These influence our physical reactions to that person. Body language, eye movements, as well as our tone of voice. If the symbol invokes fear or disdain, only those well versed in either professionalism or acting, can really hide it. Think about meeting a guy you are really attracted to, are you able to totally hide it? Or do you leak out clues?

Our social constructs and thought processes do direct our actions.
Some people are not very professional, no matter how hard they try, they are not able to put aside their preconceived notions or first impressions about someone. Or they simply don't care to. First impressions are powerful.

In my area, there are certain symbols, types of clothing, code words that set off red flags for me that danger might be on the horizon. Environmental awareness is what your conscious and your subconscious picks up as it scans the environment. Some people call that a gut feeling, but I call it the mind at work.

I also think we can sense someone's vibes, just as animals can sense fear. I've had situations, as a woman, where I sensed danger; one such incidence was when I felt a creepy feeling, turned around and realized some weirdo was following me in the mall. Incidentally, I was able to lose him but the guy was stalking on some level. I looked at the guy to let him know I was aware and then lost him. I was careful when I left the mall and go out to my car. (nothing happened)
Humans have animalistic survival skills, fight or flight is connected to these.

For these reasons, it's important not to buy into myths about certain types of people, such as "Gays are pedophiles." These thought processes influence our behaviors and lead some to social violence.

[oneold1-4u]

15. Sorry but----

The eyes have it! Visual is the best and quickest warning sense of the human. Never try to control it too much if at all. When you see a person who brings to mind fear or real ugliness, take some heed, it may save your life and perhaps many others. Not heeding the very obvious may cause a Columbine or even a Jones-town. The signs of disaster are usually obvious in some way to someone! For many people other senses even come into play, Someone says: "I smell trouble" it might well be true, or "I hear there's going to be hell to pay!"
Heed that last one because the next few years will make the last four a picnic!

[ultraist]

16. I agree! "take heed."

In self defense courses, they tell you the same, "trust your gut feeling." If you are picking up a weird feeling about someone, there is a reason. You are either picking up something valid, or your preconcieved notions are influencing you. Go with the former and error on the side of safety. They say your first thought about a potentially dangerous situation, is usually correct.

They other thing they teach is to be aware and ACT aware, walk with confidence so that you do not appear as easy prey. Predators pick up on fear.

[Cocoa]

18. absolutely

it happens all the time.

[ultraist]

20. Cops seem to be really well trained this way

I think some can sense paranoia from two cars back! LOL!

I bet they have a lot of training in environmental cues and fine tuning their envio awareness skills.

We had some training in this as Social Workers. Going into people's homes can be risky. One of the first things we were supposed to do is scan for any weapons within reach, guns, knives, blunt heavy objects, etc. We also were told, never sit or stand in a position where the client blocks the exit.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

19. Anything that I view as a hate symbol is a red flag for me.

However, in my line of work I deal with many people who are not of my political/personal thinking daily. I don't treat them with any less professional courtesy than someone who is. It's my job and it's not personal. My personal life is another story.

[jmm]

21. It depends.

You can wear a crucifix and be a good person. If someone is pro-war or anti-choice I may still be able to find some redeeming qualities in them even though we'd always have our differences. You can't flaunt a swastika tattoo and be a person I'd want to spend any time with.

One of my co-workers has a gang related tattoo but due to where I live I'm one of the few at my job who understands what it refers to. I'm still professional with him but I'd never spend time outside of work with him.

edited because spell check can't help me with grammar.

[LynnTheDem]

22. Thanks all! Here's why my weird Q and my "thesis" from it...

"Anyone who says they don't judge someone by their appearance is a liar."

"in my head I told her to F*ck You"

That's HUMAN NATURE.

And also human nature is for our feelings in our hearts and minds to show in our body language and our decisions, even if only sub-consciously.

Symbols evoke emotions -sometimes very strong emotions- and we can't help reacting to them, even if only sub-consciously. And those emotions, even if only sub-consciously, are likely to show to others. And that affects the thoughts and opinions and reactions of those others about us.

HUMAN NATURE. It's inter-action between humans and we can't prevent it if we tried. Even symbols we may not have anything against we may still react against, perhaps because of how that symbol is being worn or used.

And imo, everyone's replies (and I agree with them all) and my own blathering on in this post, is EXACTLY why the 10 Commandments, or any other personal beliefs, should not be displayed in courtrooms.

The 10 Cs are a symbol, and as a symbol they evoke emotions, which can be very strong. And those emotions, even if only sub-consciously, are likely to show to others. And that affects the thoughts and opinions and reactions of others towards us.

I believe in the 10 Cs; it's not what they SAY that affects me negatively...it's what they, to me, REPRESENT, right or wrong, at least currently: Public religion. Republicans. Iraq war=crusade. Hate-spewing "Christians". I can't help it; that all hits me when I see a religious display in public. It's not the display, it's the negative thoughts it brings to my mind in connection with "public" religion.

Seeing my judge's 10 Cs hanging on his courtroom wall would affect my emotions. I can't help it. Rushing into my brain would be iraqcrusadedeathdestructionliesbushrepublicansfallwellphelps...all negative emotions, even though I don't feel negatively at all towards the Ten Commandments themselves.

But by affecting my emotions, my body language and demeanor and tone of voice are affected. "Is this judge one of those 'rightwingnut religious fanatic bush-bot hate-spewing "christian" ann-coulter loving warmongering I lost 18 months of life I can never spend together with my husband because he was in Iraq because of warmongering religious fanatics my God is bigger than your God' bastards?"

And I'm not an athiest or a "invade their countries, kill their leaders & convert them all to christianity" muslim! I can't even imagine the negative emotions such a symbol if I had that added to my load; "there are Americans who would kill me if they could get away with it just because my religion is muslim and theirs is the one represented by that hanging on the wall". YIKES I'd be a shivering basketcase the minute I saw the 10 Cs hanging in the judge's courtroom, lol!

And my being uncomfortable and nervous and my not looking him in his eyes because I'm wondering if he is a religious nut and if he is I hate him for it and can he tell I'm not a religious nut and we all know religious nuts HATE us non-religious nuts ohGodIamsodoomed!!!...

...will my body language, affected by all these emotions & thoughts churning through my head, give him the impression, even if sub-consciously, that I have something to hide? Feel guilty? Am guilty?

And if so, which is quite possible, how will it affect his legal judgement of me in areas judgement must be used rather than rock-solid evidence? How about sentencing, where there is judge's descretion that can be a huge range, depending if the judge "believes" the person is remorsefull or not, etc.

We all react emotionally to symbols, especially powerful ones, and our emotions affect our behaviour; we all pre-judge by appearances, such as a person's behaviour, even judges...the last thing we should be doing is adding symbols that evoke emotions into a legal process that is supposed to be impartial and not based on emotions as far as possible.

All only in me own opinion, of course! :D