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Starpass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:37 PM
Original message
Shut the Fuck Up--You Hypocritical Bullshitters!!
..and I'm one of you. Christ,we fight and bite each other. And you know what, we all walk right over our soul---I'm beginning to wonder if we really have one. I've been here since the beginning of the Democraticunderground and I've listened to all the screams of "what the fuck the goddamn Dems need to do and say". Do you realize that one of us is doing just that?? And do you realize that we smile, pat him on the head, and ignore him?? To clarify up front: any of you who have been around here know that I'm a Clark-Kerry-Kerry-Clark person so don't think I'm trying to push my candidate.

Our soul IS Dennis Kuchich (and I still can't spell his name right - and maybe that just points to how shallow we really are). I cry for this poor soul every time I see him. How in the hell could anyone doubt he comes from the "people". He talks about his large family and them living in "cars" as the family residence. That should make you stop..........silver spoons look awfully tarnished in that light, don't they?? He could have been popular being a whore for the corporations. He fought them all his life. He stands up every day in the US Congress and fights Bush even at the times it wasn't popular but also downright dangerous. He stares into the eyes of Mafia Man, DeLay (who threatened members of his party with death if they didn't vote for Clinton impeachment). He is me. He is everything I ever thought was right. He is what made me poltical. He is what made me a Democrat. And then so many years into my life I finally meet "him" and, as a Christian, I feel that "before the cock crows thrice, I will deny him". I did. I won't work for or support Dennis because he won't win...that's my logic. But you know what, I'm not sure any of us "win" if we turn our back on the guy who reminds us of our soul. If you can spit on him, then any of your arguments pertaining to "your boy" is just rhetoric in the "I want to win game"....it has nothing to do with really caring..just like the right wing's message has crap to do with really caring. Dennis, thank you for reminding us that we have obligations...I'm not sure, son, we ever intend to meet them.
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DerekG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you, Starpass...
We have all been fighting over several Hubert Humphreys, while ignoring the Bobby Kennedy who stands before us. Kucinich will get my nomination, as well as my money.

This thread needed to be posted.

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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
49. But remember what happenned to Bobby Kennedy. And his brother.
And remember who it was who was responsible for both.

THAT is who we're up against right now. That's who must be defeated for the good of the country, and as corrupt and fucked up as the system is, we aren't going to get rid of all of it overnight. Right now I'd settle for the Executive Branch and the media.

Would I like to see a President like Kucinich? Yes.

Do I think he has a snowball's chance in Hell of defeating the Bush Criminal Empire and their media machine, with the entire fucking country paralyzed by BCE fear? No.

Maybe, if we had another 4 years of this shit, people would be shocked into reality enough. Or perhaps they would be so brainwashed by then that they no longer know what reality is.

Bush and his compliant Murdoch/defense contractor owned Pravdas will shred Kucinich. They will cut him open and roast him like a pig at a Luau. And the one answer he gave at the debate the other night - whether or not 95% of this board agrees with it - gave them all the ammo that they need.

Dennis Kucinich is "weak on terror". He doesn't give a shit about Homeland Security. - That's what they'll say. And they'll get away with it. Reagan used fear of the USSR to scare votes from Mondale and the Russians never set foot on this continent. 73% of the idiot sheep out there believe Saddam Hussein was working in an air control tower two years ago today, guiding a 757 into the World Trade Center. If they buy that, they'll buy the next load of shit as well.

I have nothing against the candidate or any of his supporters, but there's absolutely no way that Dennis Kucinich is the man to beat this regime. And that's a reality that sucks, because it tells us how fucked we all are at the moment. But it IS reality just the same :evilfrown:
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Charlls Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #49
145. The problem is still Starpass; current democracy its obsoleted and has a b
Edited on Fri Sep-12-03 01:21 PM by Charlls
And its obsoleted by a subtle but awfully simple flaw in the system:

(if there is some remaing attention span out there, now its the time to use it)
The capitalist system has some rules called "free market", which allows 'dolars' to freely move through the system: this means that in sudden inbalance of the resources that feed the system, the system itself, represented in its more powerful layers, can react opportunely, drifting the whole system to a new 'economical equilibrium point'

On the other side, the democratic system (the current one) even if it has some rules called "free elections", 'votes' cannot move freely through the political system, just as was the case for the dolars in the economical system. People CANNOT WITHDRAW ITS VOTE right now, Politicians know this, and they know also that once they are elected, they have a 4 year span to do whatever they want, after all, since they represent the same economical layers the mainstream media does, this means that they can use those propaganda means, to even win a second 4 year term.


I see a electoral system where people can go any time of the year, and change their vote from a candidate to another; let it be a congressman, let it be the president. When that vote update occurs, the previous supported candidate drops by one, and the new supported increases by one.

In this way, the equilibrium point will be one in which occurs economical and political equilibrium at the same time, so we assure its the people that has the last call

Vote support will drift dinamically, just as currently does Nasdaq, but now politicians would know, that is not enough to get power.

The most important part will be to keep it

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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. that is so sweet
you just put something into words that I hadn't realized I was feeling also.
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lameone Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
99. Oh yea...
That Shut the Fuck up really got touched my heart
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #99
106. Ah.... too sorry oh Lame One
"Shut the Fuck up" and the ensuing plea were only meant for DUers who have been talking about a candidate just like that for years.

You'll have to forgive us for not having considered that someone with all of 13 posts to our long conversations would have been offended.

Take good care of your sensitive heart :hi:

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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Did you live in Cleveland when he was boy-mayor - I did
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. Starpass well said
Its Kucinich. Dont worry about it, Dennis is quite the humble one about this and I at one time couldnt spell it. Well said, he is the soul of the party, doing what should be done. Thank you.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
5. brilliant
He is me. He is everything I ever thought was right. He is what made me poltical.

I'm all verklempt here!

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. Dennis is a great candidate.
Dennis is serving a higher purpose.

One day soon we make this country into the kind of community that will take Dennis seriously and evaluate his ideas on their merits instead of on Republican fear mongering.

Or else die trying.

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Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
7. I've said it before, Kucinich is the only liberal (other than Sharpton)
eom
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
8. what a moving post
Edited on Thu Sep-11-03 07:47 PM by Resistance
thanks Starpass.

Also, as a frequent observer of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, let me add that Kucinich is TRULY the most hopeful, even-handed candidate on that particular issue. The rest of the Democrats are no different from the Republicans in their hawkish support for Likud and Sharon's atrocious tactics. Dean has attempted to move closer to the center recently, but as you may know, Joe (and other Dems) has been giving him a real hard time with it.
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
31. Bingo- Add the Moslem vote-another 3-4 million n/t
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imhotep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. There are 2 types
those who want change.
And those who want to win at any cost.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. Starpass...I hear ya...
but, I'm way ahead of you. I know Dennis. Worked his 72 campaign as a schoolgirl. He is why I am a diehard liberal today. I give equally to both Kerry and Kucinich and am completely at ease supporting them both.
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shirlden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
11. Ah Shit, Starpass
Why did you have to ruin my day by telling me the truth? Yeh, I agree, Dennis is my soulmate, but......and now that "but" hurts a lot more than it did before I read your WMD.

I think I'll go eat a big bowl of worms.

:cry:



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liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
12. I love Kucinich...
He was the first one I supported. I had a 'Kucinich for President' bumpersticker on my car before he was even in the running. However, as soon as I saw Dean, I knew he was going to be our next President. I'm waiting for the day when the people of this country grow up/evolve enough to vote someone like Kucinich in the White House.

Kucinich gave me hope a couple years ago when I was in the blackest despair. I'm sure others can say the same about his 'Prayer for Peace'. I dropped him an e-mail thanking him, and he happened to be in his office late that night, and he answered me back. I won't slam Dennis. He is the candidate whose views are closest to mine.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
13. He isn't me. I am pro-choice, anti-flag burning amendment
Sorry, but I won't accept the hypocrisy accusation here. I chose my candidate carefully, after weighting carefully their views and actions.
I never let the electability thingy stand in my way. I seriously considered Kuchinich (know how to spell and everything). I still like his answers the best on the war issue in the debate (although my candidate will do better). He was on my short list for months - and eventually dropped out.
I think my process was as thoughtful, as rational as possible.
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. gee, there was such a good vibe going, too
"Kucinich"
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Enraged American Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
14. I feel the same way...
I support Kucinich with my heart, but I think it'll come down to Kerry, Gephardt, or Dean. I'm fine with those three, but Kucinich keeps scoring points with me. He is my perfect politician.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
15. Don't post it here, tell it to your kids and grandkids

They are the ones who will pay the most for the choices society makes today.
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Starpass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Ductape--you should mention
Edited on Thu Sep-11-03 08:01 PM by Starpass
I certainly hope to pass it on to my two month old grandson--first grandchild. Want to see the pictures?? But I feel kinda "Big Chill" dirty if you know what I mean. If I profess what I always thought I professed then why would I not support Dennis at all costs?? I know that first I have to rid this country of Bush for the sake of that child..and from all the Bush fucks to come. I rationalize that Dennis can't do that - and he can't. But something eats in me that we CAN't support what is RIGHT and remove Bush at the same time.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Putting a Democratic face on PNAC will comfort a lot of people

It probably won't comfort your grandson too much, but if you're still around, you can just explain that you couldn't support what was right.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. Sorry if I sounded harsh, but as you said yourself

It is hypocritical to profess one principle and then live your life by another.

For the record, I have endorsed no candidate. I have stated that Kucinich is neither a criminal nor a scumbag and his assertion that lilves are more important than money make him more qualified for a cage in Guantanamo than public office.

I should also note that I respect all faiths, including faith in the voting process. If you believe that your vote makes a difference, only your conscience can tell you whether to vote your conscience.
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Starpass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. Ductape--I honest to god don't know what you just said
Are you saying that PNAC is the Right Course and,thus, anyone who opposes it is not doing the right thing. Or did you just mistype?? Or are you trying to tell me that is what Kerry or Clark support--which I do not buy into at all (that's the Bush/Kristol/Wolfewitz gang).
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
51. I am telling you that anyone of any party who obeys PNAC is electable

I can't tell you what is "right."

I can tell you that for the vast majority of the affluent voting classes, if the decision is made to put a Democrat face on the PNAC policies, the vast majority of the affluent voting classes will sincerely feel that they have "won."
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #40
53. I think what Ductape was saying is that
if we elect someone who isn't willing to do the drastic surgery we need, then we've simply changed the label, not the substance.

In other words: you're right about Dennis being the only sane choice.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
39. The thing is: we *can* elect Dennis.
Edited on Thu Sep-11-03 08:25 PM by Mairead
Take a survey. Download and print off his 10-top-policies handout. It's badly written, but what the hell. Make 10 or 25 or 50 copies. Hand them out, and ask the people you give them to: would you vote for this guy. See how many say No. Not many, I bet.

(edit) Your basenote was very eloquent indeed.
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
16. thank you, for DK - I'm all for 'why put off for tomorrow ...
... what we can do today'

and ... if not now, when do we turn the tide ...

(or should have done 30 years ago, or over the last 30 years)

Time has come today ... I'm tiring for the day to come ... and ready for us to pro-gress ... before I die ...

somebody, please, get Corporate America's control freaks off our backs ... deliver us healthcare; and, corporate-free leadership ... exorcize the evil BFEE and their ilk from the Land of the Free ...


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Imalittleteapot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
17. "Our soul IS Dennis Kuchich"
You are so right! Thanks for the reminder.Our other souls were Paul Wellstone, Bobby Kennedy and George McGovern.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
159. What he means by Soul
He means that Dennis comes from the same circumstances that many of us have. Of course, I can't speak for everyone.

I think what is really wrong with the system is that we have elected people from the upper class time and time again and they will do what is in thier best interest. Not ours.

We need to see people running for office that are middle class now.
It can't hurt. Have the other ones worked?
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DerekG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
18. Bump...
And I urge others to do the same as well. I would take a bullet for Kucinich.
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xJlM Donating Member (955 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Don't know about taking a bullet...
But he's got my support. Even what meager financial support a laid off technician can give...
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
20. Well said Starpass and thanks.
I feel like I have been bonked over the head since I started reading about this guy. I was SO jaded and I kinda liked Dean but then I read the Prayer For America (I think that is what is was called) and it was like a light bulb (ha) went off. He is what I wish I was and he is the best of us. If nothing else he raises us all by reminding us of what could and should be. I hope he can hang in until the nominations and if it goes to someone else at least he will still be there to offer up all of these ideals.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #20
104. Et tu, MuseRider?
Same thing happened to me. I was a very active democratic party activist in the late '80s/early '90s. I got involved in politics after meeting and working on a campaign with Paul Wellstone in 1988.

After the overwhelming disappointment of Clinton and the corporatist "New Democrats", I stopped being active in the Party around 1993, although I still supported Democrats at the polls (even ran a website TWICE for a local legislative candidate).

After Paul's untimely death last year (and the evil spin by the Repubs after the memorial), I got interested again. I was leaning toward Dean too, because I thought he was "The Anti-War Candidate™". That is, until I found out Dean supported the first Gulf War (which I vigorously opposed, and which, IMO, is the cause of 9/11) and the Afghanistan invasion (even after the Taliban offered up bin Laden and Al-Q, if only Bush presented them with PROOF first-- not an unreasonable request, really).

Then I found out about Dennis's campaign. I read his positions, which are VERY clear (no fudgy position statements like most pols), his street-level activism experience, and his overall pro-peace agenda. That, and he reminds me so much of Paul Wellstone (early, pre-DC, "fight the power" Paul) with his energy and sincerity (and his height, too :) ).

I also like the fact that Dennis is LIKE US. He's humble. He grew up poor. He's made some mistakes in his past, but he's owned up to them, and explains why he changed his mind.

Also, he's VERY electable. He gets close to 50% of the Republican vote in his district, which is only 39% Democratic. And, he won his last race with ±70% of the vote! If an unapologetic liberal like Kucinich can win like that in a Republican district, think of what he could do in the presidential election!
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #104
108. That is what has the Democratic Party running scared
and why we are suddenly being bombarded with a bunch of Centrists out to convince the world that only a stealth PNAC candidate can save us from US-courted and US-created terror.

These polls have been consistent- I've been watching them since they started and Kucinich has consistently hovered at over 50%. Kucinich is the people's choice and the corporate media, the DNC, and the DLC will do anything to protect their interests and marginalize him.

Hah- it won't work. When I table for Kucinich, our table is practically MOBBED by real people, real voters. Peace


Who Will You Vote For President?

3.2%
George W. Bush (429 responses)

3.7%
Carol Moseley Braun (496 responses)

32.4%
Howard Dean (4308 responses)

0.3%
John Edwards (38 responses)

1.9%
Dick Gephardt (259 responses)

0.2%
Bob Graham (25 responses)

1.2%
John Kerry (161 responses)

55.3%
Dennis Kucinich (7357 responses)

0.4%
Joe Lieberman (49 responses)

1.4%
Al Sharpton (184 responses)

13306 total responses


http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-prez2004story,0,5467485.htmlstory?coll=ny-nationworld-nation-utility&vote8594962=1

Tu candidato demócrata preferido

Al Sharpton 1%

Bob Graham 0%

Carol Moseley 1%

Dennis Kucinich 71%

Howard Dean 4%

Jhon Edwards 1%

Jhon Kerry 1%

Joseph Lieberman 1%

Riechard Gephardt 21%


http://www.univision.com/content/content.jhtml;jsessionid=IQEO1J3JL3P3ACWIAAOCFFAKZAABWIWC?cid=256899

There are more out there but why invite them all to get freeped?
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
23. The Moment is Now
For this man has some much to offer, he speaks to one's heart, I am angry about what has happened with Bush but I find myself more to be sad. This man is an inspriation to us all, he is what the late Robert Kennedy called a ripple of hope, of course Dennis would tell us that we are that, and I would agree but he is something else. Thanks to Starpass and Will Pitt both non Kucitizens but admirers of this little man with the biggest heart. Go DK. Thank you.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
24. I like Kuchinich but he is too homely looking.
Sorry.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. please come on cat g, this isnt a school election
I dont like being told that his problem he isnt attractive, we arent running a school election where the most good looking or whatever wins.
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
54. 35 years ago ... I supported a not so tall, quiet-spoken person ...
Edited on Thu Sep-11-03 09:02 PM by cosmicdot



"The priority for change-the first element of a new politics for the United States-is in our policy toward the world. Too much and for too long, we have acted as if our great military might and wealth could bring about an American solution to every world problem..." -Robert F. Kennedy, 1968


"Our presence here is the call for a political philosophy which is constructive, transformative, and transcendent. A philosophy based on moral principles and enshrined in law. These self-evident truths of inherent equality of all, the rights of all, and the connection of all are the highest creative forces recognized in our Declaration of Independence, written into our Bill of Rights, and actively present in the soul of every American and freedom-loving person. This is the time today, to reconnect with the highest purposes of our nation." -Dennis Kucinich

"The United States, brought forth by the power of human unity, seeks to be reborn. We invoke the Spirit of Freedom. We hear the cadence of courage echo across the ages: "Life, Liberty, pursuit of Happiness". Once again, the hour has come for us to stand for unity, even as our government tells us we must follow it into war. Once again the hour has come for us to be strong of heart. The direction of human unity is forward. We are on the march. It is our government which must follow, or be swept aside." - Dennis Kucinich

"So come forth young and old. Prepare for America's future." - Dennis Kucinich

So come my friends, it's not too late To Seek a Newer World.


We need a Commander-in-Peace - the time is now.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. :)
Thats beautiful. I think Bobby is looking down on Dennis with a big great :).
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #54
83. Truly wonderful words
First class thinker, wise and kind man. He has my vote, my mnoney (what I can give), and my very best wishes.
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Starpass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Yep, homely in a very familiar way
like a bunch of kids 40 years ago that I was in school with who came from nothing "homely". It's called character and that's why he sears my soul and why he would never appeal to pampered, shallow America. Just like these kids never were accepted by the elite long ago.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Star these are the same people who put him off
because they feel his Croatian name will make him a target of jokes, I think thats bull, would I not have a chance if I ran with my Great Grandfather's name which was Kovalcik. Do I have to have an Anglican name to win? Thats like saying 44 years ago, oh Jack Kennedy he cant win because hes Catholic. That was bull too. Dennis isnt the most handsome man Ive seen but he sure does have a beautiful heart.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #24
35. I trust 'homely' more than I trust 'slick'...n/t
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. so do I
As I said this isnt a school election must we let our own judgements rule our lives. Past judgement told us a Catholic Irishman couldnt win the presidency, and it goes on and on. Dennis has won where others have failed. He has more experience than Bush I know nothing to rant about it but a unique fact.
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chadm Donating Member (480 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #24
126. Abe Lincoln was homely as well...
but great leaders become more attractive in time.
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bluescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
152. Compared to what?
George W. Bush is handsome?:puke:
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Starpass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
27. You mentioned "Prayer for America"
the first I heard of that was Mike Malloy. I listend and cried and so did Mike. He was really choked up. I had no idea who this guy was and tried to picture him. Do you know that I pictured it was Joe Scarborough!! Honest to god, that was the picture in my mind with the name............slightly off, I would say. And then he shows up as a Presidential candidate. America would be SOOO better off if they listened to his "prayer" and unfortunately, a whole bunch of stupid ass white men (hmm, I believe that was a book--sarcasm) would be a lot better off if they listened to that "prayer" instead of the "prayers" Falwell, Robertson and Limbaugh stuffed down their throats!!!
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Star I first heard of Dennis K
When I was at DU when Cythia McKinney was attacking Dubya on 9/11, I remember reading Dennis's name. Dennis Kucinich fights for whats right, that is one of the main reasons he has my support.
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
28. I'm usually always up for a pitch for Dennis...
...but one that starts off by calling me a hypocritical bullshitter is a little hard to get behind. That aside, you are bringing up a very important issue, an issue we've been debating here for a long time with little progress, which needs progress, an issue which is at the heart of our political system and struggle.

It's more than just a matter of idealism vs. pragmatism. I really think the Music and Movie industries are great analogies. There are a lot of great artists out there with great ideas ready to produce high quality material, which many, many people really do want to hear and see, but they don't get funding, they don't get backed. The system will only invest in work that has recognizable emblems, that look the same and sound the same as things that have been successful in the past. Things are rejected or filtered out if there's a perceived risk of putting off the market, the target audience. We invest in things that are hollow, and starve things that are fresh. The result is that we have a culture drowning in bad art. And we run our elections in the exact same way, and wonder why we have so many poor public servants. It's time to be brave. People actually do want it.
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Starpass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. rbnyc--no they don't; that's why they keep buying the same music
You and a few of your friends might want something more innovative. The public doesn't that's why the big money goes for the "standard tripe". It's the same in politics. But in this case it's like you saying what you did and refusing to buy, support or listen to the artists that you know are your soul and not a generic carbon copic. That's who Dennis is. He's everything for 40-45 fucking years I've heard Dems say "they want, they need, where is this leader"...they met him, they said "you don't have the pizaz to win" and so we will go back to what sells. Like I said all I can think of is the movie "The Big Chill" (I think that is what the name was). If we don't want what he's selling, then we don't really belong in the Dem party..
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. Sometimes I think you're right...
...the world produces crap because most people are stupid and want crap, but I'm not sure that's really true. I think that's the pop image of the world, but I don't see it in my friends and neighbors. I think people buy crap because crap is available and much money is invested in telling people that they want it. I think that if we invested as much in telling people they want something better, they would.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. I love your analogy
its great so how you feel about me posting a Kucinich thread. I tell you tonight is what we needed, hope and compassion, and thats what Dennis represents.
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Astarho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. Little of both
I think that many people are so used to having the crap forced on them, they are not sure what else is out there or where to look (and they may be too lazy to look).
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #41
62. A student once asked me why "Popular Music" was called that

when no one likes it.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Thats an interesting question
I think Rene makes an excellent comparsion with music. :thumbsup: Rene. Me and most people I know dont like Pop either.
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. is it that 'corporate' touch that spoils a good thing?
that dampens the creative spirit? that represses the soul?
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #66
76. Afraid so. Compare early Elvis to the later Elvis. His voice held up

but he lost the soul. You don't hear his roots in the later music.
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #66
85. it's because the decision making process...
...is fear-driven, IMO.

:hi:
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #63
71. I thought so. First she asked me what "Pop" meant -- you know how

in music stores they have sections like Jazz, Pop, etc. I told her it meant "popular," which I think she suspected, and then she said "But why do they call it popular when nobody likes it?" Great point, I thought. Who DOES like that music? You do have to wonder how much of what we're offered is due to people deciding what we should have.

It's all about the green stuff, as your grandfather told you, John. It's not easy to get a record contract and many companies control the artists rather than supporting them to be artists. The companies think they know what sells. Some of the best, most original artists stay with small labels and go their own way, touring frequently to make a living.

Norman Blake, for example, is a fantastic guitarist who seems to operate that way, touring with his wife Nancy, a cellist, being nominated for Grammies in "Best Traditional Folk Music." In the past, before he started playing only solo or with Nancy, he played with June Carter, Bob Dylan ("Nashville Skyline,") Kris Kristofferson, Joan Baez, the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band ("Will the Circle Be Unbroken.)" I've seen Norman and Nancy live, would go see them again. There are undoubtedly many, many good artists out there I've never heard of.
It's a shame they don't get better known -- a shame that more people don't get to hear them. I know some other DUers know Norman 'cause he's been mentioned in the Lounge before.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. rene I will post something if you would like
I will probably call it
"The Moment is now" or something but you know I think it would be great if you posted one, knowing you it would be wonderful.
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. Thanks.
I should work on a good pitch for DK post.

:)
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. I will post it here in GD
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hippywife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #28
52. Excellent analogy, rb!
I feel exactly the same way!

I, for one, was the typical complacent American. Didn't get too involved. But then I saw the face of George Bush during the last campaign and I knew that something was incredibly wrong. The fear and loathing phase of my awakening began. When he stole office, I vowed that very moment to work the next presidential campaign. After decades of "lesser of two evils" choices, I hoped and prayed that there would be someone worth working for. Then I read Studs Terkel's article in The Nation last year:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020506&s=terkel

My first thought was to hope he would actually run!! Then my second act was to search the net for info on him and I found the website to draft him to run. I sent an email immediately and let them know I was onboard. As soon as Dennis announced his intention to run, I hit his website and volunteered again. Now my husband and I, along with another friend, are the coordinators for the Kucinich campaign in Tulsa.

My hopes and prayers have been answered. In return, I am giving Dennis the one thing I am truly free to give...every last drop of my support and all the energy I can possibly muster.

One person CAN make a difference!! Dennis is doing it everyday, and I can do no less for him.
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #52
84. Thanks and great post.
Also, thanks for the link. I hadn't read that article before.

:hi:
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WHAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
153. your analogy to bad art ...
is germane to the reason I am supporting Kucinich...When I was a teenager, I was faulted by a peer for spending money on an lp that wasn't in the top ten list...my music, I had to listen to it, and I selected what I wanted. I'm going to spend my vote the same way.

As consumers, we are all expected (been trained) to have our taste validated by the market place but that validation isn't founded on authentic response but elicited by market ploys that edit our choices to the extent that we have no choice. To me, validation by nespotic organizations has replaced taste, thought, adventure! There is the NYT best seller list devolving into the top ten F books (my brother taught me that)...no more good science fiction (well less, anyway)...movies are like the ten best list, too (formula)...music (aaargh!) and government/statesmanship has gone the same way.

What if the way to bring vibrancy back to government is by making authentic choice possable again instead of market validation?

Thanx for a post that helped me focus and do some reasoning...and I hope you're healing well.

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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
32. Unelectable? Anyone with the courage to fight the fight Dennis is fighting
Edited on Thu Sep-11-03 08:17 PM by Karmadillo
will be unelectable. Doesn't matter whether they lived in cars and an orphanage or whether they grew up with the most silver of silver spoons in their mouth. Unelectable, they'll tell us. Don't even try. Will only break your heart. George Will will tell us it's so, Candy Crowley will tell us it's so, Tim Russert will tell us it's so, everybody who this society says is anybody will tell us it's so. And they'll keep telling us until the day we fight hard enough and long enough to see that someone who represents the People and not the Powers is actually elected.

It's been a long time since we've had a chance to fight for a candidate like Dennis and there's no guarantee we'll have a similar chance anytime soon. Why should we believe he's unelectable until he's had a chance to put his case to the People and done his best to convince them to vote in their best interests instead of the interests of those who would keep them in misery? He needs our support to break through the media filters that censor or mock genuine alternatives to our current state of disarray. If it's not to be for Dennis and another Democrat wins, we can always join together in the fight against the Bush Administration. But we shouldn't give up on who we really want before the battle has been fought.

All my babbling aside, Starpass, a sincere thanks. I always enjoy reading your posts and this is definitely one of your best.



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Starpass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #32
47. Karm--you know what??
I expect if a Dem wins the White House, Dennis will still fight for what he feels is right and will take the floor of that House and blast the son of a bitch if he feels he's fucking over the American people. So, here's to hoping for a Dem president...and here's for listening to Dennis to tell us if he's indeed a friend or has become just another corportate 'ho'.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #32
115. Maybe "Unelectable" in a Wellstone way...
In 1990, Paul Wellstone was "unelectable". I was involved heavily in the MN DFL (Democratic-Farmer-Labor) Party at the time, and that was the mantra being repeated over and over by the "limousine liberal" wing of the party (the Humphreys, Mondales and assorted others). They all supported a rich suburban lawyer, who was supposedly "more electable" because he didn't stir the pot too much.

Needless to say, Paul out-organized this guy, and got the nomination at the state convention. I was there as a Wellstone delegate, and his acceptance speech was one of the most exciting things in my life!

Even the media in MN poo-pooed Paul, consistantly showing him 10%-15% behind the Republican incumbant.

But Paul didn't play by their rules.

He worked the grassroots, getting his message out to THE PEOPLE, driving that crazy Green Bus of his all over the state. And you know what? HE WON ONE OF THE GREATEST POLITICAL UPSETS IN HISTORY!

In 1996, he was up for re-election, running against the same guy he defeated in 1990. This time the Repubs used the tired "that Ultra-Liberal Paul Wellstone" line as their campaign theme. And you know what?

Paul beat his oppenent by an even GREATER MARGIN than in 1990!

Voters don't give a flying fig about labels. They care about HONESTY, INTEGRITY, CONVICTION and PRINCIPALS. Even if they don't agree with you on certain issues, they'll still support you because they know you'll do what you think is right.

Paul was like this. Dennis IS like this. The choice is clear. "Politics as Usual" and playing by their rules is what got us into this mess. We know how to get us out.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #115
172. Thanks. I had forgotten how "unelectable" Wellstone was. Good
thing he and his supporters didn't let themselves be discouraged by those who knew the hopelessness of his efforts.
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HPLeft Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
42. Maybe Not
I think Kucinich is an interesting guy, and he has a lot of support from people in my philosophical neck of the woods. But I simply don't believe he is Commander-in-Chief material - at least during a period when America finds itself at war in Afghanistan, at war with al Queda, and unfortunately at war in Iraq. After following Kucinich for some time, I almost expect that his approach to combatting al Queda would involve having everyone hold hands and chant "al Queda, we love you." You don't combat collective insanity with good intentions. You need a blend of good cop and bad cop approaches. That said, I will give him credit for at least being in tune with the reality that violence and intimidation is not the ultimate answer in winning a war of ideas (which is something that Dumbya has yet to figure out).

Kucinich's position that we should simply pull out of Iraq is IMHO irresponsible - and I was a vehement opponent of the Bush approach to ousting Hussein, and hence this war. But having scrambled the Iraqi eggs, we have to work hand-in-hand with the United Nations to create some kind of edible omlet for the people of that nation. We're also going to have to mend fences with allies, and slowly withdraw as many American forces as possible.

We may also need to expand "special forces" or create an elite anti-terrorism corps - and hence are unlikely to be cutting the military budget any time soon. 9/11 cost NYC an estimated 200 billion. Who knows what the final economic cost of that attack was to the nation? If history has taught us anything, this is absolutely not the time to be slashing the military budget - which is what Kucinich is calling for.

I care passionately about this country, and I'm absolutely not ready to put the defense of this nation in the hands of Dennis Kucinich. Dennis Kucinich would make a great Secretary of Labor, but not a great Commander-in-Chief.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #42
58. Sorry, but what you're saying is analogous to
'all benefits are hereby suspended until morale improves'


There is a reason why countries like Sweden aren't being attacked by crazed Muslims. And it's not because they're sacrificing human values for the sake of their war machine.
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HPLeft Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #58
90. Actually...
What I'm actually saying is that different times require different leaders, and Kucinich routinely fails my personal reality test to lead at this moment - although I am quite glad that he's bringing his ideas to the table (since he does bring a somewhat different perspective). Maybe "Imagine" really is his favorite song, but I'm not willingly putting a dreamer at the wheel at this particular point of time. In my view, these neo-cons are also dreamers, although their dream is flavored by a nasty case of cocaine-induced paranoia rather than Kucinich's more LSD-laced Lennon-ism.

Sweden isn't being attacked by crazed Muslims because it is not the sole remaining superpower, or a nation completely addicted to cheap middle-eastern oil, and hence, the geo-political status-quo.

They are not suffering from the inaction of past Democratic and Republican administrations. But, IMHO, the United States has become the focus of al Queda for one reason - because of our support for the status quo in Saudi Arabia, which stands in the way of Bin Laden's political ambitions. I even think that even Israel is secondary to Bin Laden's ambitions in Saudi Arabia. And our support for the Royal Family has nothing to do with supporting some mythical American war machine and everything to do with petroleum. Petroleum. The Automobile. Get the picture. It's not about tanks or planes, it's about cars. We need to become energy idependant real soon, and my guy is committed to getting it done within the next ten years. I trust his grip on reality, and his ability to be Commander-in-Chief, a whole lot more than I do Kucinich.



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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #90
149. When you're in over your head, stop digging
Don't hire someone to dig harder!
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hippywife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #42
64. Dennis is a lover of peace
but I sincerely doubt he is the absolute pacifist some view him as. I think if anything, his dogged consistency in fighting against this administration has shown he isn't weak on anything at all. The fact that he has only missed one vote in his entire career in the House has shown that he takes the job of the people's business very seriously. He is what the president is meant to be: the servant of the people, not a business as usual politician.

Slashing the pentagon budget isn't such a pie-in-the-sky stance. How pissed were the American people when they heard the pentagon was paying $500 for toilet seats? How pissed are they going to be when they all finally realize that there is $1.2 trillion that they can't account for at all? Cancelling controversial weapons programs that don't work and stopping this backwards evolution into nuclear weapons development that this administration is leading is a concept anyone can understand and get behind.

And he isn't advocating an irresponsible abandonment of Iraq. He says pull our military out and replace it with U.N. peace-keepers. That would also mean the U.S. would still be highly invested in rebuilding Iraq. The only difference is that our troops would no longer be the sitting targets they are because they will no longer be seen as the oppressive occupational force the Bush administration has made them into. It would also signal to the Iraqi people that we are so serious about their recovery that we are willing to support it in as a part of a true international coalition and not hand them over lock, stock, and barrell to American corporate raiders.

I've said this before and I will say it again...get Bush out of office and the rest of the world will calm down and breath easier. Put Dennis in office and they will have the peace of mind to also sleep at night.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #42
65. Dennis wants UN troops to replace US troops in Iraq and for

Iraqis to do the rebuilding -- no money for Halliburton or Bechtel. He wouldn't remove the troops without a replacement force there. But once there are other troops there to keep the peace, I think getting American troops out ASAP is the best thing we can do. There is too much anger at Americans there now for us to do much good.
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HPLeft Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #65
169. I'm fine with getting as many troops out as possible...
...but I don't think the UN is very excited about getting into that quagmire at the moment. And I don't blame then. Personally, I'd pass the whole enchilada off to the UN if I could. I wouldn't care about the contracts - screw the friends of Dick Cheney and George Schultz. But I'm not entirely clear that the UN will ever fully come on board, and even if they do, I think US troops will have a strong presence in Iraq for years to come.

So, raising the expectations of the American people in that regard is IMHO both unwise and probably dishonest. We all knew the mess Dubya was getting us into when he started this war, and the American people have to take some responsiblity for supporting that policy. They shouldn't be led to believe that we can magically extricate ourselves from this colossal mistake.

By the way, am I the only person who thinks the idea of Indian (largely Hindu) troops in Iraq would be a bad idea?
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #42
96. on slashing the military budget
If history has taught us anything, this is absolutely not the time to be slashing the military budget - which is what Kucinich is calling for.

well, let's have a little look see about this slashing the military budget business ... you indicated you were a vehement opponent of the invasion of Iraq ... me too ... sooooo, i assume it would be fair to say that you favored inspections over invasion ... and i assume it would be fair to say that you favored diplomacy over the use of force ...

the war in Iraq has easily cost us $150 BILLION dollars and there's no end in sight to what the final tab will be ... now, if you and I had had our way, that money, and all future military expenditures in Iraq, would be PURE MILITARY BUDGET WASTE ...

our military dollars are being wasted on immoral wars ... and our military dollars are far too often squandered on ludicrous weapons systems that do little more than line the pockets of the military-industrial complex ...

i'm not opposed to an "appropriate level" of defense spending ... but please don't try to convince me, or for that matter yourself, that current spending levels are appropriate ... they are not ... the days of the cold war and its big price tag weapons systems are over ... it is a time to ensure adequate troop strength ... it is not a time to squander america's economic strength on reaganesque starwars fantasies ...

returning america's focus to being a good citizen in the international community is the most effective path towards protecting this country ... exploitation by the U.S. and the arrogance it has shown to the rest of the world is THE REASON al quaeda attacks us ... and massive defense appropriations will not ever make us any safer ...
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HPLeft Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #96
167. I don't disagree in principle
I do think we are going to have to develop some new strategies that provide for global security at a lower cost, as well as more nimble military forces. I don't know that additional weapons system make any real sense for the foreseeable future.

For instance, if Kucinich were saying stuff like: "if I were President, I would insist that EU members, South Korea and Japan took a much larger role in defending themselves, and that would allow us to reduce our spending a certain amount", I'd be fine with that. And he would be winning more votes in the primaries.

But, the way things are, I'm not clear that we can cut the military too much more without finding ourselves in a very difficult position. I did support a more muscular inspection regime (which, by the way, if you read Senator Kerry's remarks from the Senate Floor during the Iraq debate, you will quickly infer that he would have as well). But I also believe that the world is a very unpredictable place, and so long as that is the case, it might be a good idea to have a resonably robust military (which would also include specially trained peace-keeping forces - since we Democrats just love to use the American military in that role, don't we).
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
46. Thanks Starpass
And I love what you've said so much, I'm not even going to read the other posts. It's been a sad day for me. It all boils down to the simple fact that 9/11 is now our war mantra.

With a man like Dennis Kucinich, that never would have happened.
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messiah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
50. That why I'm leaving
this country. If you do not stand for change then why should I. Why should a person keep voting for a democrats that are moving futher and futher to the right with each passing election cycle. I will do as I see others doing and shit on this country!.
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Starpass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. messiah--this may be ineteresting to you
this is my second marriage. My first, for 23 years, was to a VP of one of our nation's Fortune 500 companies. I enertained people in my home who were the major investors in this company already 20 years ago. They were FOREIGN. They had no respect for our way of life, our wages and benefits. All they wanted is to cut the fucking bastards and give us profits---the directions to the American employees of this great USA company heavily invested in by foreigners. I hated these fucks. A lot of rich South American fucks. To them the world should be rich and peons---and they referred to people like that in their homeland as if it were you or I saying this is my child and this is my house plant!! My husband was as bad a ruthless fuck; but he said to me "you know, there will be a day in the next 20 years when our kids will have to leave this nation to find a livable income because this country won't have it anymore". And this was part of the fucking repuke mafia who delivered his boss to be one of Ronnie's ambmassadors because of all the money raised for Ronnie. I belive, you have made the right decision. GO
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hippywife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #50
67. That's why I'm staying!!
My husband and I have played with the idea of moving the past few years. We came to the decision that this is OUR home, damn it!! There is no way we are going to cut and run.

I have no real problem with the immigrants that come to this country seeking a better life for themselves and their families, after all most of us are the descendants of immigrants. When they mourn for their homeland, I do pose the question of why they left rather than making whatever sacrifices necessary to make their home one they would want to remain in.

The weak run, the strong stay and fight. I want my country back and, damn it! I'm going to fight for it.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Great attitude!
Dennis is staying to fight another day NO MATTER WHAT. They tried to destroy his career once before and he fought back. And he does it WITHIN the Democratic party and WITHIN the system, challenging both every step of the way!
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. yep blm
He comes back. Win or lose the primary, I think one has gotten be pretty foolish to think that Kucinich would sink in to the abyss, and not come back. The polls imo are nothing now, it is only September. Our day will come.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
55. Thank you, Starpass!
Edited on Thu Sep-11-03 08:43 PM by Darranar
By the way, it's spelled Kucinich; the only ch is at the end.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
59. Is electing a centrist Dem really a victory? If we're progressives --

and I always thought most everyone here claimed to be -- why aren't we giving money and loyalty to Dennis Kucinich? Why aren't we all giving him our votes in the primaries? If all the people who know Dennis is right would start supporting him now, he'd be able to win when the primaries begin.

He's been out there campaigning for months and yet hasn't missed a vote in the House. He's introducing bills and resolutions in the House to do the things he believes in, not waiting to be president to do something.

Can we really AFFORD to wait for America to magically be ready for Dennis Kucinich? Why do we assume that there aren't enough good people in this country to respond to his message and put him in the White House right now?

Dennis wants to give us all Medicare insurance. Not just some of us. All of us. Who doesn't want health insurance for everyone? (Republicans! And they don't vote for Democrats, anyway.) He wants to do away with NAFTA and WTO in favor of fair trade. Who doesn't want an end to American employers exporting jobs? (Republicans, corporate CEOs, and we know who they vote for.)

Let's give the people a chance. Remember, they elected Clinton twice and they supported him when the GOP impeached him. He has 67% approval when he was impeached! Bush* is running somewhere between 40-45% as the "popular" "commander in chief" of our nation "at war." The people elected Gore. (And the people I know who voted for Nader did so because of NAFTA. That was something they didn't like about Clinton, didn't want it continuing with Gore.)

Did you know that Dennis's campaign song is "Imagine"?

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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
60. My whole life we have been 'at war'
I for one am sick of war. The 20th century was the bloodiest century ever. Now Bush* and PNAC wants more of the same.

Not for me. The time to stop it is now.

Kucinich is electable if WE say he is. Corporations and those that run them have money. Sure enough. But there are more of us than them.
We can get the votes, if the 2 issues of security and economy are addressed.

People are scared. They do not have to be scared. But you can be sure PNAC will try to keep the fear high. Kucinich can address their fear.
The answer to fear is hope. Of course, Clark on the ticket also will help. Kucinich/Clark will get America out of the business of war as a business. Isn't that why we have had most of these wars in the past?

Economy? Its all about jobs. Everyone I talk with hates how corporate America has taken jobs every place but America. Kucinich has plans for corporate America, to be sure.

Kucinich is unelectable? Horseshit.
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chadm Donating Member (480 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #60
128. I'm with you
You people gave me hope this morning. Thank you.
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Northwind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
61. Once again
Dennis Kucinich is an extremist and ideologue. He would be just as bad for this country as Bush, just in a different way. I will not vote for him under any circumstances.

The above statement is not subject to debate.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #61
70. There certainly are some extremists and ideologues around
...but Dennis isn't one of them. Your claim reveals much more about your own politics than it does about Dennis's.
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AnAmerican Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #61
75. No debate??
Edited on Thu Sep-11-03 09:33 PM by AnAmerican
Fine I will not debate your obvious agenda. But I will state you are dead wrong.

I am involved with the campaign daily. There is something happening out in the reaches of our country. People are waking up, and responding to Dennis, responding to his message of hope, responding to his integrity. It probably will not make the papers, but it will materialize and catch alot of folks by surprise.

Extremist?? Ideologue?? Do you really realize how foolish those statements make you look?

This country is tired of the BFEE...and just as tired of not having a real choice in the ballot box. Dennis is pulling the Democratic party back to where it never should have left.

And he is succeeding, do not doubt that. He is drawing more people everyday, but the media is doing it's damn best to marginalize him, to ignore him. I say let them....it makes no matter. We the people will elect the candidate most likely to lead this nation down a better path.

Make your snide comments, make your "expert" pronouncements. I will accept them for what they are. And I will vote for DK, as will a number of people, a number which will astound even the most jaded and cynical amongst us.

Welcome to a different kind of election, an election where we have a real choice.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #61
86. Repuke in Dem Clothing
Close minded repuke in Dem clothing...

The above statement is also not subject to debate.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #61
134. NOW who's being extreme?
"Dennis Kucinich is an extremist and ideologue. He would be just as bad for this country as Bush, just in a different way. I will not vote for him under any circumstances.
The above statement is not subject to debate."


Hello Kettle. This is the Pot. You are black.

Now tell me again, who's the extremist? IMHO, the statement above is a little "extreme", don't you think? I hope you were being sarcastic!
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #61
158. Curiously, there was not ONE "above statement",
Edited on Fri Sep-12-03 06:55 PM by diamondsoul
but THREE. Tell us, oh wise one, which of the three were you referring to with your supreme pronouncement?(one of many across these boards which I have little use or respect for)
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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
69. Here here Starpass!
I was raised to vote for the candidate that best reflected my values, and the candidate I wanted to win, not the one I thought could win. We allow ourselves, as voters, to back the mediocre candidate, the one that makes the least waves and has the best chance of attracting votes from the enemy camp. That is not democracy as I see it.

When the NH primary madness unleashes I will be right there with both a vote and a sign for the candidate who best represents my views, and who I want to win.

Kucinich 2004!
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
73. Nice post.
but soon he'll be back to doing excellent work in the House, and we'll still have a battle against evil to win. Lot's of folks think I'm wrong about his prospects. I'm ready to be proven wrong. But if i'm right, you can help your country by focusing your passion for DK toward getting Rummy, Chimpy and asskroft back to where they can do no harm.
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #73
174. Interesting commentary
Can I ask what it is you think is excellent about being outnumbered in the House? It doesn't seem to have fared him well in making any sort of progress for us, even while he's working his rear end off. I'd like to put him in position that will assure his success, wouldn't you?

His "prospects" are what the people MAKE them. You want him to succeed? The do something to MAKE that happen. Sitting on your heels saying "soon he'll be back to doing excellent work in the House" won't make that happen, will it? Like him? Think he's good for the people of this country? Then say so. No, speak it, scream it, bellow it with a bullhorn, but tell people you think he's good for us and why. Do NOT sit back and say *ah well, no chance for him* and then gripe about where we are. See, he stands up and gets counted, not for himself but for US. He doesn't CARE if he's the only one, he still gets up and tells the truth, demands some concern for the common people, insists we don't just blow each other off and fend for ourselves. So where the hell is the backing he deserves for doing all that?

I know where it is. It's all wrapped up in winning. So I ask you, are you fighting to win or are you fighting to WIN!? Pick a side and go, win or WIN, there is a difference.
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gate of the sun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
74. well said!!!!!!!
starpass voting with our souls will allow us to win. If everyone who said Dennis speaks for my "soul" would vote for him he would win. Stranger things have happened. Sorry folks I cannot turn my back on my soul it is really the only thing I have.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. gate you are sorry
You dont have to be, in fact I am sorry that people are like this. Some know that Dennis represents their soul yet they are resigned to their presumpton that this man with a big heart cant win.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
78. "Don't compromise yourself. You're all you've got."
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hedgetrimmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
79. kucinich is the bomb-diggity... the mac-a-saurous... the hard in
hard-ass...... the earth shattering jeffersonian democrat... the boy of the car... the man of the peeps... the mafia stomping... corporation kicking... peeling 'em down from the heart...

that's a twenty dollar kick!
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
80. Kucinich
I have no doubt about his passion. He has an old-fashioned rhetorical style that is energizing.

If the country elects him President it would represent such a large paradigm shift that I would probably stop looking at Canadian real estate on the net. I started checking it out the day of the Bush V Gore ruling....

Can't tell yet if the Country is ready for a paradigm shift of this magnitude. I expect it depends on just how much worse it gets under Bush.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
81. Kucinich is the Democratic man!
Starpass, Dennis by far comes closer to embodying my values and my positions than any other candidate. He has my support. Should he withdraw and throw his support behind another candidate, in deference to Dennis' values and ethics, I will most likely support that candidate; if he should lose in the primaries, I will still support whomever the Democratic candidate is. If he should _win_ (God be praised!), then because he isn't telegenically proper and because he is substantially left of the rightward drifting center, I will actively support him (volunteer). Because, yes indeed, he is a man of courage and conviction and -- most importantly -- one of us!!

Damn our system! This winner-take-all representative democracy; makes me wistfully wish for a parlimentary form...

Now, having said that, I think even Dennis would say anybody but Bush -- the most important thing we can do is uninstall George Bush. We can sort out the Left-to-Center politics after we topple this mad militant lootocrat.
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Kenneth ken Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
82. sorry -
for the conflict in you.

You are right, though, he is what a Democrat should be.

That's the reason, i switched from supporting Dr. Dean (who speaks well) to Kucinich. He lives the ideals I value.
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chadm Donating Member (480 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #82
129. Dean speaks well? Haha.
Dean is a grumpy moran. DK is the bomb.
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Kenneth ken Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #129
154. Who among Dems
was speaking critically with passion of Bush prior to Dr Dean?
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #154
155. Kucinich Kucinich Kucinich! With an unswerving passion
and a documented track record and resolutions to prove it. There us more from pre-March times but it would take me too long to find it right now. This is a representative sample from March - June

03/24/2003
Kucinich on the Cost of War


Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH), who leads opposition in the House to the war in Iraq, issued the following statement on the cost of war:

"The bill for this unprovoked attack is just starting to come in, and the American people should start worrying that Administration has lost control over the costs.""In fiscal terms, the costs for this unprovoked, and therefore preventable, war could have covered giving every American child safe, enriching pre-kindergarten classes or every American senior citizen prescription drug coverage for one year. "

"It is shameful and irresponsible that the Administration released this information only after Congress considered and approved its fiscal budget for 2004. The budget, passed by Congress after war had begun, included a $700 billion tax give away to the wealthy, but not the cost of war. "

"The Administration's priorities are out of step with what America needs, and this war will cause America more problems than it could ever solve: it will fan anti-American flames overseas, divert attention from unmet domestic needs, such as stimulating the weak economy, and plunge the U.S. government deeper into debt that today's children will be paying when they are adults."

"Americans are beginning to learn the cost of war in terms of human life. It is time to reflect on what this war will cost America in terms of the brave men and women who serve, in terms of the loss of innocent life, the sacrifice of the domestic agenda and the ruination of America’s standing in the world."


03/26/2003
House Ways and Means Subcommittee on Trade


America needs a healthy domestic steel industry and we must protect the steelworkers who built up this great nation.

But between 1997 and 2002, America’s steel industry and its workers were under attack by foreign companies illegally dumping steel into the American economy, sending 35 steel companies into bankruptcy and costing 54,000 industry employees their jobs.

As a result, I am proud of the efforts of the Steel Caucus, which continually advocated for the Administration to initiate a Section 201 steel investigation into these imports. We also succeeded in pushing the International Trade Commission to recognize the devastating effect of steel imports through a finding of injury. We even gathered with 25,000 steelworkers on the ellipse to make sure the President imposed an effective tariff to help stem the tide of imports.

One year later, this remedy is working and it must be continued. In my hometown of Cleveland, it helped us find a new owner to keep our steel mills running. Industry-wide since the Section 201 relief was implemented, domestic steel is beginning to see signs of a recovery: domestic producers have experienced incremental improvements in revenues, operating income, and capacity utilization.

Additionally, the industry has made significant progress toward restructuring and consolidation. The International Steel Group (ISG), which came into existence following its purchase of LTV, has agreed to acquire the assets of Bethlehem Steel. US Steel announced plans to purchase National Steel. Section 201 relief, if allowed to run its course, will result in a more competitive domestic industry.

The tariffs have also caused a modest price recovery in industry. Prices for hot rolled steel rose from historic lows of only $210 per ton in December 2001 to around $300 per ton today. But even so, prices for all major flat rolled products are still below 20-year historical averages, and steel imports still remain approximately 25 percent of the market.

The tariffs were a good start, and they must be allowed to continue. The United States has finally made clear that it is no longer willing to serve as the World’s Steel Dumping Ground. The United States has also made clear that the national security of our country requires a strong and viable domestic steel supplier base. Only the continuation of the 201 tariffs will mitigate the harm of unfairly traded imports and assist the industry in a critical recovery. Keep the steel tariffs working!


03/27/2003
This War is Wrong and Must End!


Today, at a press conference on Capitol Hill, Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH), who leads opposition to the war in Iraq, issued the following statement:
"This Administration has never made its case for war against Iraq. It is an unjustified war, which the Administration continues to misrepresent and exaggerate. The most recent example is the Administration's characterization of international coalition support for this war."

"This morning, President Bush once again exaggerated the extent of support for the war stating that the coalition of countries supporting this war is larger than the 1991 Gulf War. What Bush failed to mention was that back in 1991, all of the 34 coalition members offered military force, by contributing troops on the ground, aircraft, ships or medics. "

"This war involves the troops of only the U.S., Britain, Australia, Poland and Albania. Not even the three members of the Security Council that support the war, Spain, Italy, and Bulgaria are committing military support."

"This Bush Administration has been adding coalition member to their list based on statements of “moral” support. As the Washington Post reported last week, if this type of criteria was used back in 1991, the size of the coalition would likely have topped 100 countries."

"Further, the total cost of the Gulf War to the United States was around $4 billion dollars. This time, the President has come to Congress requesting a $75 billion bill, all of which will be paid by U. S. taxpayers. Clearly, military and economic support from countries is far more important than statements of 'well-wishes'."

"This war must end now. It was unjust when it started last week, and is still unjust today. The U.S. should get out now and try to save the lives of American troops and Iraqi citizens. Most importantly, ending the war now and resuming weapons inspections could salvage world opinion of the United States, which has been deteriorating since the talk of war began. After all, the greatest threat to the United States at this time is terrorism, which is breeding from this war."


03/31/2003
Kucinich: President Continues to Mislead The Country About the War


Today, Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH), who leads opposition in the House to the war in Iraq, issued the following statement:

"Today, President Bush said the following to Coast Guard personnel: Our victory will remove a sponsor of terror, armed with weapons of terror. Our victory will uphold the just demands of the United Nations and the civilized world."

"This statement is another example of rhetoric that the Administration is using to mislead the public in the war against Iraq. Iraq has not been proven to have weapons of mass destruction, by either the United Nations or the United States. Further, this statement falsely implies that the United Nations and 'the civilized world' sanctioned war in Iraq. It also incorrectly implies that the United Nations sanctioned regime change and the removal of Saddam Hussein."

"This Administration has consistently misled the public on the cost of war, the cause for war, the facts of war, and the support for war. It is time to end this war immediately and bring the troops home."


04/01/2003
Kucinich Takes To House Floor To Oppose War Supplemental


Vows To Oppose Supplemental; Offers Amendment to Bring Troops Home
Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH), who leads opposition to the war in Iraq within the House, spoke today on the House floor in opposition to the war supplemental and offer an amendment to bring the troops home.

Kucinich issued the following statement:

"I support the troops. But, this war is illegal and wrong. I do not support this mission. I will not vote to fund this Administration’s war in Iraq."

"This war is not about defending the United States from a foreign threat in Iraq. This war is not about the U.S. trying to save or liberate the Iraqi people. This is not about an Iraqi nuclear threat. Iraq did not attack the United States. The United Nations (UN) did not approve this war as being necessary to protect international security. In addition, this Administration did not provide evidence for its claims that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction (WMD) prior to military conflict. And, several key pieces of evidence have been shown to be fraudulent."

"This war is killing our troops. This war is killing innocent Iraqi civilians. This war must end now. It was unjust when it started two weeks ago, and is still unjust today. The U.S. should get out now and try to save the lives of American troops and Iraqi citizens."

"Many members of the Republican Leadership have demonstrated how to vote against war funding and support our troops. On December 13, 1995, the House, under the control of Speaker Gingrich, considered HR 2770. This bill, a “prohibition of funds for deployment of Armed Forces in Bosnia,” was introduced by Rep. Bob Dornan (R-CA). Many leading Republicans, such as Tom DeLay, Dennis Hastert, Bill Thomas, Duncan Hunter and Henry Hyde, voted to cut-off funds for the military action while troops were deployed in Bosnia. In fact, 82% of Republicans voted to cut off the funds while troops were deployed in Bosnia."

"Ending the war now and resuming weapons inspections could salvage world opinion of the United States. The greatest threat to the United States at this time is terrorism, which this war will breed."

During debate, Kucinich offered an amendment to bring the troops home immediately. The Kucinich amendment would cut $19.3 billion from Operation Iraqi Freedom Fund. The amendment would leave $30.3 billion to fund the war to date, plus $10 billion to get the troops out of Iraq. The amendment would save taxpayers $19.4 billion or could be used for increased homeland security, education, healthcare, or veterans funds.

Kucinich will vote 'no' on final passage of the war supplemental.


04/01/2003
Kucinich Takes to The House Floor To Call For An End to The War


Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH), who leads opposition to the War in Iraq within the House, issued the following statement on the House floor:

"Stop the war now. As Baghdad will be encircled, this is the time to get the UN back in to inspect Baghdad and the rest of Iraq for biological and chemical weapons. Our troops should not have to be the ones who will find out, in combat, whether Iraq has such weapons. Why put our troops at greater risk? We could get the United Nations inspectors back in.

"Stop the war now. Before we send our troops into house-to-house combat in Baghdad, a city of five million people. Before we ask our troops to take up the burden of shooting innocent civilians in the fog of war.

"Stop the war now. This war has been advanced on lie upon lie. Iraq was not responsible for 9/11. Iraq was not responsible for any role al-Qaeda may have had in 9/11. Iraq was not responsible for the anthrax attacks on this country. Iraq did not try to acquire nuclear weapons technology from Niger. This war is built on falsehood.

"Stop the war now. We are not defending America in Iraq. Iraq did not attack this nation. Iraq has no ability to attack this nation. Each innocent civilian casualty represents a threat to America for years to come and will end up making our nation less safe. The seventy-five billion dollar supplemental needs to be challenged because each dime we spend on this war makes America less safe. Only international cooperation will help us meet the challenge of terrorism. After 9/11 all Americans remember we had the support and the sympathy of the world. Every nation was ready to be of assistance to the United States in meeting the challenge of terrorism. And yet, with this war, we have squandered the sympathy of the world. We have brought upon this nation the anger of the world. We need the cooperation of the world, to find the terrorists before they come to our shores.

"Stop this war now. Seventy-five billion dollars more for war. Three-quarters of a trillion dollars for tax cuts, but no money for veterans ' benefits. Money for war. No money for health care in America, but money for war. No money for social security, but money for war. We have money to blow up bridges over the Tigris and the Euphrates, but no money to build bridges in our own cities. We have money to ruin the health of the Iraqi children, but no money to repair the health of our own children and our educational programs.

"Stop this war now. It is wrong. It is illegal. It is unjust and it will come to no good for this country.

"Stop this war now. Show our wisdom and our humanity, to be able to stop it, to bring back the United Nations into the process. Rescue this moment. Rescue this nation from a war that is wrong, that is unjust, that is immoral.


"Stop this war now".
04/01/2003 Progressive Caucus Co-Chairs: Affirmative Action Is Necessary And Must Be Preserved

Today, the Supreme Court will hear arguments in the historic University of Michigan affirmative action case. The court will consider whether state educators can consider race as a factor in law and undergraduate admissions. Progressive Caucus Co-Chairs Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH) and Barbara Lee (D-CA), today, called on the Supreme Court to uphold affirmative action and rule in favor of the University of Michigan.

Today, Co-Chairs Kucinich and Lee issued the following joint statement:

"Affirmative action is necessary, affirmative action is right, and affirmative action must be preserved.

"For the first time since Brown v. Board of Education, which opened up educational opportunities for millions of Americans, our public schools are becoming increasingly segregated by race.

"In our cities, indices of black-white segregation suggest extreme separation of minorities far beyond the levels reported in other multi-racial societies such as Brazil, Canada, Australia, and the UK. In fact, the only other nation where minority segregation indices routinely exceed those reported in the United States was the Union of South Africa under apartheid.

"Segregation in our cities leads to dire consequences in the educational environment for minorities. High minority school districts receive far less in state and local educational funding than districts that have predominantly white students.

"America's diversity is strength, not a weakness, and it is absolutely critical that we nurture programs that enhance opportunities for those who have been historically left behind. To do nothing, to abolish affirmative action, is to use de jure means to fall back into the de facto segregation
of the past, which made a mockery of democracy, equality, liberty and justice - the very values on which this nation was founded.

"Affirmative action is still essential because a truly level playing field is still an elusive goal, not a reality. Today, we stand united in our support of affirmative action and the University of Michigan. Our nation is at a critical junction; the Supreme Court must not send our nation back into some of the darkest moments in our history, but instead lead our nation to a fair and just future."

Both Kucinich and Lee joined 110 Members of Congress, on February 18, 2003, in signing a friend of the court brief on behalf of the University of Michigan.


b]04/09/2003
Kucinich Introduces Legislation to Create Cabinet Level Department of Peace

With our nation at war in Iraq, Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH), today, reintroduced legislation to create a cabinet level Department of Peace.

The legislation, introduced in the last Congress, embodies a broad-based approach to peaceful, non-violent conflict resolution at both domestic and international levels. The Department of Peace would serve to promote non-violence as an organizing principle in our society, and help to create the conditions for a more peaceful world.

Domestically, the Department would be responsible for developing policies, which address issues such as domestic violence, child abuse, and mistreatment of the elderly. Internationally, the Department would analyze foreign policy and make recommendations to the President on matters pertaining to national security, including the protection of human rights and the prevention and de-escalation of unarmed and armed international conflict.

"Now, more than ever, this legislation is urgently needed," stated Kucinich. "Our current foreign policy makes our nation less safe and will make it impossible to meet our domestic needs. This legislation offers an path towards peace and prosperity."

The bill already has 47 original co-sponsors in the House of Representatives.


04/14/2003
"Kucinich: Administration's Agenda of Tax Cuts For The Wealthy and War Will Leave Nations Needs Unmet"


"This Administration's domestic agenda of tax cuts for the wealthiest one percent and an aggressive foreign policy will leave our pressing domestic needs unmet," stated Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich today.

“Today, on tax day, we are once again reminded of the misplaced priorities of this Administration.

“Domestically, our economy is hurting, unemployment is high, and we are losing larger numbers of jobs from the manufacturing industry and all this Administration can talk about is tax cuts for the wealthiest one percent. It is clear that the Administration’s flawed economic policy is out of step with the needs of our nation.

“Abroad, this Administration is pursuing an aggressive foreign policy that will further isolate the United States from the world community and hamper our ability to confront the threat of terrorism. This Administration’s policy in Iraq, and now Syria, is isolating the US and squandering international sympathy created in the wake of 9/11.

“Combined the Administration’s tax cuts and aggressive foreign policy will leave our nation’s needs unmet. Already, this Administration’s policy has led to cuts in spending on important domestic needs such as education, health care, veterans benefits, and child care. Our nation’s needs will continue to go unmet as long as this Administration continues to press forwarded with a flawed economic plan and a dangerous, aggressive foreign policy.


04/14/2003
"Kucinich Calls Administration's Rhetoric Towards Syria 'Reckless and Dangerous'


The Administrations rhetoric this weekend towards Syria is reckless and dangerous, and could further hurt the United States’ standing in the region and the world, Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH) stated today.

Kucinich, Ranking Member of the House Government Reform Subcommittee on National Security, Emerging Threats and International Relations, today issued the following statement:

“The rhetoric out of the Administration this weekend towards Syria is reckless and dangerous. Such threats only serve to further destabilize the region, fuel anti-American sentiment and isolate the United States from the international community.

“It appears that the Administration using the same rhetoric and political posturing that led to the unjustified war against Iraq. Our nation cannot afford this dangerous and aggressive foreign policy. On the heels of war with Iraq, the Administration’s posturing appears to be putting the United States on a path to war with Syria.

“Threatening action against Syria could help fuel speculation that the Administration is seeking to build an empire in the Middle East. Now more than ever the United States needs to work with the international community to repair damaged relations and to rebuilding of Iraq. The rhetoric out of this Administration is counterproductive towards this goal.

“With such threats, the Administration is taking our nation down a dangerous path. If the Administration continues with this rhetoric the United States risks more violence in the Middle East region, further isolation from the international community, and the continued sacrifice of our pressing domestic needs.


04/21/2003
Kucinich to Rumsfeld: Release Number of Iraqi Casualties


In a letter to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich requested that the Department of Defense release the total number of Iraqi casualties incurred in the war in Iraq.

"Now that the combat phase of the war has ended, it is critical that the full extent of losses be calculated. While it may be difficult to account for the exact number of Iraqi combatants killed in battle, the number of Iraqi civilians killed and injured in the conflict should be released, " wrote Kucinich, the Ranking Member of the House Government Reform Subcommittee on National Security, Emerging Threats and International Relations.

After sending the letter, Kucinich commented: "The United States owes it to the people of Iraq and the world community to make this information public."


04/24/2003
Bush Economics Bad for Ohio and the Nation


With the President traveling to Ohio today to sell his misguided economic plan based on tax cuts to the wealthy, Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH), co-chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, issued the following statement:

"Like most of the nation, Ohio's economy is hurting. Since the beginning of this Administration Ohio has lost 167,800 jobs or 3.06% of the statewide employment. In my hometown of Cleveland, since January of 2001, we have lost 53,900 jobs and have an unemployment rate of 6.8%. In Canton, where the President will visit today, the unemployment rate is 7.1%.

"The President's economic strategy of tax cuts to the wealthiest one percent, and aggressive foreign policy, will make it impossible for our economy to recover and will lead to continued cuts in important domestic needs. Already, this Administration's policy has led to cuts in spending on important domestic needs such as education, health care, veterans benefits, child care and led to sky high state budget deficits. Ohio, alone, is facing a projected state budget deficit of $2 billion in FY '04.

"Nationwide, since the President was inaugurated, our economy has lost 2.6 million jobs, an average of 73,400 jobs a month, and 8.4 million Americans are unemployed. Even with 8.4 million Americans unemployed, the plan that the President has come to Ohio today to sell will produce only 190,000 jobs in 2003. This is simply unacceptable.

"It is clear that the Administration's flawed economic policy is out of step with the needs of Ohio and our nation. Most Ohioans will not benefit from the Administration's tax cut proposal. Under the President's plan, 1,580,900 Ohioans will receive no tax cut at all. And another million will get a tax cut of less than $100.

"The Administration's tax plan calls for speeding up and making permanent many of the tax cuts enacted in 2001, along with the elimination of individual income taxes on corporate-source dividends and capital gains. These tax cuts will not stimulate the economy because they are slow to phase in and invest money in the wrong areas.

"In addition, Ohio's economy has been decimated by NAFTA. This Administration wants to expand NAFTA, when any sensible economic program for Ohio would repeal it.

"The President's economic record in Ohio, and the nation, is one of high unemployment, factory closings and corporate bankruptcies. Ohio, and our nation, deserve better. To stimulate our economy takes more than tax cuts to the wealthy. It requires federal spending, progressive tax cuts to people who need the money now, and real efforts to create new high paying jobs.


4/28/2003
KUCINICH: "They're Both Wrong"


A debate has recently erupted between rival Democratic campaigns, with one candidate quoted as saying "We won’t always have the strongest military," and a rival campaign responding that the candidate had implied he "would compromise or tolerate an erosion of America’s military supremacy."
---
Tonight, Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich, the ranking Democrat on the Government Reform subcommittee that monitors the Pentagon, issued the following statement:

"They’re both wrong. The U.S. military is the strongest in the world by far, and will remain so. But Democrats cannot lead the nation without being strong enough to confront the bloat and waste in the Pentagon budget."

"Our military budget is almost as big as that of all other countries combined. While we have unchallenged superiority in military strength, we also have more people without healthcare than any other advanced industrial country -- and Democrats must be bold enough to say the two issues are linked."

"I don’t agree with other Democrats that we can continue to increase military spending, and still deliver on our domestic agenda for middle class and working Americans. We can’t. That’s voodoo budgeting."

"In this campaign, I plan to make a major issue of hometown security -- healthcare, jobs and education for all -- and misspent Pentagon dollars, even as other Democratic candidates join President Bush in pressing for still more exorbitant military budgets."


5/02/2003
Kucinich: The Military Victory is a Foreign Policy Failure
Just before President Bush made his speech aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln, presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich -- ranking member of the House Government Reform Subcommittee on National Security, Emerging Threats and International Relations -- issued the following statement:

"Regardless of the outcome, the war in Iraq was wrong. While the United States has won a military victory in Iraq, the Administration never justified the war, rendering it a diplomatic and foreign policy failure.

"The Administration led America into a war based on false pretenses. Even today, as the President declares an end to combat, there is no credible evidence that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction -- weapons that, according to the Administration, posed an immediate and imminent threat to our nation and our allies, and could not be eliminated through international weapons inspectors.

"The Administration, with its policy in Iraq, has isolated the United States from the international community and threatens to make our country less safe not more safe.

"Bringing the troops home, and bringing in the international community to assist with humanitarian reconstruction and security, must happen immediately. Rhetoric alone will not convince the world that the United States is not occupying Iraq, especially since the U.S. has prioritized the rebuilding oil infrastructures instead of providing humanitarian assistance."


5/09/2003
Kucinich: Is the Administration Proving it is About Oil?


In the wake of news that the Bush administration is proposing a U.N. resolution "granting the United States broad control over Iraq's oil industry and revenue"(Washington Post, May 9), presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich -- ranking Democrat on the House Government Reform subcommittee on national security -- issued the following statement:

"Today's news once again raises questions about the Administration's true intentions in Iraq. For months the Administration has said the war was not about oil, but its actions tell a different story.

"If Iraqi oil is for the Iraqi people, the United Nations should manage the oil profits until a credible Iraqi government is installed. The United States should not control the Iraqi people or their resources, nor should the U.S. dictate where their resources go.

"This move by the Administration to manage Iraq's oil revenue will undermine the US's ability to reconstruct Iraq and further harm the United States's credibility in the world community."

5/13/2003
KUCINICH TO CONGRESS: WE NEED MORE FUNDING FOR AIDS, FAMILY PLANNING, HEALTHCARE


Testifying today on behalf of the Congressional Progressive Caucus before an appropriations subcommittee, Dennis J. Kucinich called for increased spending for AIDS, family planning and our health care infrastructure.

While the Subcommittee is certainly faced with budget difficulties, we ask that it maintain a focus on federal programs that have worked in the past to provide health care, education and workforce support. The need for these programs becomes even more critical during our current recession.

Title X of the Public Health Service Act, the National Family Planning Program is critical in providing contraception and preventive health care to millions of Americans who have low incomes or are otherwise uninsured. These programs are important "entry points" for many women and families into the health care system. Unfortunately, funding for Title X programs is 57 percent less than it was in 1980. For FY 2004, $325 million is needed to maintain services in Title X clinics and make newer, more dependable forms of contraception available, along with new technologies for screening of cervical cancer and sexually transmitted diseases.

We ask the Subcommittee to support $3.5 billion in FY'04 for Global AIDS programs, and of that number, $1.7 billion for the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, TB and Malaria. Domestically, we request $610 million for the Minority AIDS Initiative. It provides funds to community-based organizations, research institutions, minority-serving colleges and universities, health care organizations, state and local health departments, and correctional institutions to help them address the HIV/AIDS epidemic within the minority populations they serve. The Initiative fills gaps in prevention, treatment, surveillance, infrastructure, outreach and education across communities of color.

Finally, we ask that you provide a significant increase for the Consolidated Health Centers Program. Over the past two years, health centers have expanded to treat an additional 3 million new patients. As the numbers of uninsured families continue to grow, it is even more critical that health centers are provided increased resources to continue to treat the patients that come through its doors. While the CHC program is no substitute for comprehensive health insurance, it has operated as a critical piece of the health care safety net.


5/19/2003
KUCINICH SCORES IN IOWA


As was widely reported this past weekend (Washington Post, L.A. Times, etc.), Dennis Kucinich was ranked number one by undecided union members at Saturday's candidate forum in Des Moines at AFSCME's national convention. Reuters reported: "A focus group of 30 union members in Iowa, which holds the first nominating contest in January, found Kucinich with the highest overall rating and Sharpton, Gephardt and Dean right behind, pollster Celinda Lake said. 'I loved what Kucinich feels in his gut and how he supports labor; I think he gained a lot of support today,' Michael Arken of Portland, Oregon, said after the forum."

Despite a late start, our campaign is gaining traction in this crucial heartland caucus state. "Kucinich has been spending considerable time in Iowa," reported the political columnist of the Des Moines Register, "and his good score indicates he could be on the verge of becoming a factor in the Iowa contest."

Kucinich received a rousing reaction to his opening remarks:
"As President, I'll make sure that workers' rights are enshrined in a Workers' White House. As President, I'll issue an executive order which will say that anyone who gets a federal contract will have to provide that when 50% of the workers sign up for a union, there's an automatic union. As President, I'll set aside those provisions of Taft-Harley which attack the right to organize. As President (with a 100% AFSCME voting record, I might add), one of my first acts in office -- recognizing how trade has devastated so many towns around Iowa and the nation -- will be to cancel NAFTA and the WTO.

"I ask this administration: Tell me, Mr. Bush, where are those weapons of mass destruction? I've seen those weapons, and I'll tell you where they are. Joblessness is a weapon of mass destruction. Poverty is a weapon of mass destruction. Hopelessness is a weapon of mass destruction. Let's bring back hope in America. Let's bring back jobs in America. Let's bring back workers' rights in America! Thank you."


5/21/2003
Kucinich on the House Floor: "A War Based on Pretext"

During consideration of a Defense Authorization bill, Congressman Dennis Kucinich -- leader of anti-war opposition on Capitol Hill -- took to the House floor to again challenge the Bush Administration's deceptions on Iraq:

"This Administration led this nation into a war based on a pretext that Iraq was an imminent threat, which it was not. The Secretary of State presented pictures to the world he said were proof. Today, despite having total control in Iraq, none of the very serious claims that the Administration made to this Congress, to this nation, and to the world have been substantiated.

"Where are the weapons of mass destruction? Indeed, what was the basis for the war? We spend $400 billion for defense. Will we spend a minute to defend truth? The American people gave up their health care, education and veterans benefits to pay for this war. And for what? Answer the questions, Mr. President."


5/26/2003
Kucinich Challenges Bush Rhetoric on Iran


Dennis J. Kucinich continued his antiwar leadership in Congress by challenging the Bush administration on its dangerous stance toward Iran. As ranking Democrat on the Government Reform Subcommittee on National Security, Emerging Threats and International Relations, Kucinich issued the following statement:

"The rhetoric and posturing by this Administration over Iran serves only to validate impressions in the region that the United States is empire building. It is disturbing that as our nation is just beginning to learn that it was misled in the build-up to war in Iraq, that this Administration is seeking to continue its dangerous policy in the region with an aggressive posture towards Iran... Now more than ever, it is critical that the United States work with our friends and allies in the Middle East to root out terrorists cells and implement a peaceful solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."


5/22/2003
Kucinich to FCC: Stop the Corporate Takeover of our Mass Media


A longtime foe of media monopolization, Dennis Kucinich blasted the federally-assisted corporate takeover of U.S. media in formal comments filed with the Federal Communications Commission. Kucinich's protest comes as the FCC seems prepared to announce new, even more deregulatory rules on media ownership.

"Walking further down the path of deregulation skews the national discourse and is directly contrary to the welfare of the public. It is adamantly not in the public interest to grant a few corporations the privilege to broadcast their views and augment their voice to the American people at the expense of the many."

Kucinich focused attention on Clear Channel, a company with ties to the Bush Administration that now owns 1200 stations nationwide: "Clear Channel's national and dominant presence, a direct result of deregulation, threatens an imbalance in the public discourse -- an imbalance caused by the government granting one corporation the power to dominate the public airwaves, and the privilege to amplify its voice on public property. It is well documented that Clear Channel has removed on-air personalities from stations that it has bought, and replaced those local announcers with more centralized voices."


6/3/2003
KUCINICH DEMANDS RELEASE OF INTELLIGENCE THAT LED TO WAR


Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich, leader of the opposition to the Iraq war in the U.S. House, is announcing at a noon news conference on Wednesday that he will use a Resolution of Inquiry to demand the release of the intelligence that led to the war in Iraq, and to Administration claims that Iraq had tons of biological and chemical weapons, delivery systems, and a 'reconstituted' nuclear program.

"This Administration led this nation into war based on lies," said Kucinich. "I think that this Congress, and the American people, have a right to know what information this Administration had, and how they justify their public comments. Now is the time for truth-telling."

A Resolution of Inquiry is a rarely used House procedure that Kucinich used successfully in March to get the Administration to release the 12,000 page weapons report that Iraq had submitted to the UN.


6/4/2003
Kucinich Stands Up for Right-to-Choose and Gender Equality


Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich took to the House floor on June 4th to strongly oppose a ban on so-called "partial-birth abortions":

"Let's all be clear -- the bill before us is unconstitutional because it does not contain an exemption for the health of the woman who seeks to exercise her reproductive rights. Opponents of the right to reproductive choice should know that. This bill likely will not prevent a single abortion. But it does defeat the rights of women.

"I believe that equal protection under the law and the right to privacy should be freedoms enjoyed by women as well as men. But women will not be equal to men if this constitutionally protected right is denied. This bill infringes on those rights for women, and that is why I will oppose it.

"Throughout my career, I have tried to work to reduce the need for abortions by preventing unwanted pregnancies through comprehensive sex education, birth control, and increased access to health care. I think that all of my colleagues would agree that we should work to prevent unwanted pregnancies that lead to abortions.

"Advocates of this bill who say they stand in defense of life would be more believable if they worked to support families with adequate child care funding, child tax credit relief for vulnerable families, and peace. For some, this debate is only about politics. The fact that other abortion legislation, the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, has been advanced on the publicity of the Laci Peterson tragedy shows the unfortunate politicization of this debate.

"I do know, however, that many are sincere in their desire to reduce the need for abortions. In leading the nation toward this goal, we must preserve Constitutional rights. We must respect the freedom and equality of women. The best path for our country is not to escalate the divisiveness and political nature of this debate. Rather, it is to remember the principles of this nation and refrain from undermining the freedom of choice. We must respect the basic human dignity of women to make personal decisions."


6/6/2003
KUCINICH #1 WITH ACTIVISTS, AGAIN


Speaking to more than 1200 progressive leaders and activists in civil rights, labor, feminism, peace and the environment at the "Take Back America" conference in D.C. yesterday, Kucinich "electrified" the crowd with a "spell-binding speech." Here's a description from Salon, whose sub-headline reported, "Kucinich's Bush roasting gets the biggest cheers":

"The most impassioned applause of the day was reserved for Kucinich. Introduced by Leo Gerard, president of the United Steelworkers of America, as 'the only vegan in Congress,' Kucinich took the stage to John Lennon's 'Imagine' and proceeded to conjure the heyday of American progressivism by promising a new version of Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Works Project Administration. 'We're gonna rebuild America's cities and we're gonna do it with America's steel'... Medicare for all, money pulled out of the Pentagon budget to pay for schools and other domestic programs, and 'total nuclear disarmament.' He spoke to the crowd's fury over the war in Iraq, getting a screaming standing ovation when he cried: 'This war was wrong! This war was fraudulent! We must expose this administration.'

"When he was finished it was clear there was no point in having anyone else follow him. 'Dennis Kucinich has barbecued George Bush,' said the emcee. 'How about we have a barbecue right now?'"

The crowd adjourned to a party, according to Salon, partly because conference organizers took pity on Dick Gephardt and delayed his video message, scheduled to follow Kucinich, which "would have played like a parody of establishment banality."

--
PS. While there was no doubt to those in attendance at the "Take Back America" conference yesterday that Dennis Kucinich had won the event, some journalists seem so blinded by their preconceived notions of who is a "frontrunner" or "contender" or "leading candidate," that they have difficulty reporting objectively on what happens in front of their eyes. In the Los Angeles Times account, which acknowledged that Kucinich's speech was "repeatedly interrupted by standing ovations," Dennis is reduced to little more than a footnote.

What's striking about some of the mainstream coverage of our grassroots campaign is how similar it is to the dismissive coverage of Jerry Brown in '91/'92 and Jesse Jackson in '87/'88 -- while prominence and tens of thousands of words were lavished on well-funded "contenders" who barely made it past the first New Hamphire primary, and whose campaigns are no longer even remembered.

To challenge media bias and marginalization vist our Responses to the Media page.


6/10/03
KUCINICH ON HOUSE FLOOR: CREDIBILITY GAP IS GROWING


Congressman Dennis Kucinich, leader of Congressional opposition to the Iraq war, took to the House floor today to continue pressing for the truth about the Administration's drive to war:

"The credibility gap is growing. First the Administration said the US had to sweep aside the UN inspections and the UN Security Council because Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that were an imminent threat. Now, Paul Wolfowitz says: 'The truth is that for reasons that have a lot to do with the US government bureaucracy, we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on, which was weapons of mass destruction as the core reason.'

"Now their story is changing: Iraq had a weapons 'program,' they say. No longer weapons of mass destruction, but a program. If this Administration can fabricate reasons for war after the fact, where will America be headed for war next?

"Congress must demand accountability for the wanton exercise of war power, for the loss of life, the destruction of property, the waste of tax dollars and the damage to America's reputation. Thirty-three members of the House have now signed the Resolution of Inquiry to demand the White House tell the truth."

Kucinich's Resolution of Inquiry, demanding the Administration turn over intelligence to back its pre-war claims about Iraq, was introduced Thursday and has growing support. It is a privileged resolution and must be voted on in Committee within 14 legislative days of being introduced.


6/11/2003
"Mr. President, Where Was the Imminent Threat?"


Congressman Kucinich again took to the House floor today to question the White House on Iraq:

"Over the past year, the Bush Administration has made specific and unequivocal statements about the imminent threat posed by Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction -- repeatedly claiming they had intelligence showing Iraq had 25,000 liters of anthrax, 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin, 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent, and over 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents. So where are those vast stockpiles? Where was the imminent threat?

"At the State of the Union Address, the President said: '...Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent.' Where are those vast stockpiles? Where was the imminent threat?

"Did this Administration deliberately mislead this nation into war telling us that there was imminent threat, when there was not?

"The resolution of inquiry now signed by 36 Members of Congress aims to find out the truth."


6/12/2003
Kucinich: White House Manipulated 2002 Election


Congressman Dennis Kucinich, leader of antiwar opposition in the House, continued to challenge the Bush Administration on the lead-up to war in Iraq, issuing a statement today:

"Last October, this Congress voted to give the President the authority to use force against Iraq to thwart an imminent threat from Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (WMD).

"The Administration urged action against an imminent threat. So Congress voted, only weeks before the 2002 election. Some Democrats voted for it thinking there would be an opportunity to refocus on domestic issues. Instead national security and Iraq's so-called imminent threat became the divisive issue in the election. The question became: who was patriotic and who wasn't.

"The Administration capitalized on the fears of Americans. They misrepresented the nature of the Iraqi threat. They misled Congress. They misled the American people. By pushing for a quick vote before the election, they changed the election and manipulated the outcome.

"The Resolution of Inquiry will establish the truth once and for all."

Kucinich's Resolution of Inquiry in the House to force the Administration to turn over intelligence to back its claims on Iraq's WMDs, is now signed by 36 Congress members. As a privileged resolution, it must be voted on in Committee within 11 legislative days.

http://www.kucinich.us/statements.htm#031903
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hippywife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #154
168. Dennis was
Edited on Sat Sep-13-03 08:57 AM by hippywife
http://www.house.gov/kucinich/press/sp-020217-prayer.htm

Prayer for America was delivered February 17th, 2002

And a very impassioned speech it was! :)

Reading it isn't nearly as good as hearing it, tho. ;)

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/03.28I.Kucinich.Prayer.htm
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fabius Donating Member (759 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
87. Not a hypocritical bullshitter here.
I'm actually supporting Kucinich. Gave him 120 bucks, wear the t-shirt and button, talk about him. I'm also however betting on Dean to win.

My mom has another base covered with Clark.

Ten candidates is actually a good thing because if one stumbles we have nine others.

Competition. It's a good think! Look at the Repuglians, their primary is the closest thing to a Stalinist election ever seen in this country. (or Saddamist).
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joanski01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 04:40 AM
Response to Original message
88. Thanks, Starpass
I just contributed to Kucinich earlier, after reading Will's post about him.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 05:36 AM
Response to Original message
89. morning bump
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
91. Put your vote where your gut is.
Vote your conscience, not the polls.

No candidate is ever going to completely align with my "world view." So I prioritize. Right now, at the top of my list: integrity; action; health care; peace; education; economy. Dennis wins hands down on my priority list.

If Dennis truly doesn't represent your views (and I'm not talking single-issue here), don't vote for him. No candidate is going to attract 100% of the people. Unless the * relationship with the diebold ceo is fruitful.

But if he does; if he is saying what your gut and your heart have been telling you all along, put your vote there. Either be part of the change, or part of the folks who've given up and accepted defeat.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #91
93. ha, that's funny. I should have read this first, before I posted the same
thing, with different words. I totally agree with you.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #93
160. The beauty of language;
so many ways to express ourselve!. :hi:
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
92. None of the candidates ARE me. Some speak FOR me, have SOME
of my interests at heart. I respect and admire Mr. Kucinich, but no, he isn't ME. Only I can be that. People, you are never going to find yourself in the people running for office. You will find bits and pieces of what you believe, or even big chunks. You make the best choice for you, I hope. But to say that someone IS you is kind of off in my opinion. If I looked hard enough at every candidate...something they believed in would turn me off. Just my two cents.

That said, go for the chunks folks.
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
94. To be perfectly honest
Edited on Fri Sep-12-03 08:30 AM by indigo32
the person I'd really like to vote for would be Carol Mosely Braun.
Not Dennis. It's funny... I've been watching her at forums and the two debates...and have really begun to like her, when the poll was asking who I'd vote for leaving out electability, I voted without hesitation or even thought... and realized how much I'd come to appreciate her. Now, with that said, I admitt I haven't done much investigation into her record yet. Not that I don't think Dennis is a great guy and the real deal... it's just my opinion.

But as to my being a hypocrite, or fearful. Well I don't really feel hypocritical. I honestly see a public still afraid of single payor healthcare, just to mention one example. I don't consider it hypocritical understand that they have a say too. I consider it my job to educate and inform though. I also feel an extremely strong OBLIGATION to America and the rest of the world for that matter to do what I can to remove *. Thats just my 2 cents on the issue.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #94
97. interesting, isn't it
the charge that progressives sell out for dismissing Kucinich but you never hear them making the same claim about Sharpton or Mosely-Braun. Could it be that they consider them unelectible despite their high-falutin' principles? Take a guess why.

Fie.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #97
100. Your logic is faulty
Kucinich has much the strongest record of the three, and there is only one seat open. Quite frankly, I'm sorry that racism has prevented Sharpton from reaching elected office. I'd love to vote for that guy!

CMB, regretably, is not as progressive as either DK or AS.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #100
102. I thought the criteria was principles
and not a practical assessment of others racism influencing political realities.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #102
120. Yes, it is
But DK and AS are equivalent on the issues, in my judgement.

But anyone who believes Al is the one who fits best for them, but who votes for someone else--even Dennis--is betraying themselves, yes.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #120
124. If that is the case
than it is up to each voter to decide on their own and vote on the principles which matter to them. So this entire thread slams anyone who may believe other than the author of the thread---and it is just as offensive as any other bash rather than a high-minded speech.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #124
135. as such, Starpass reached out to her fellow Democrats
Edited on Fri Sep-12-03 11:39 AM by Terwilliger
with the best advice she had to offer about what's at the "core" of the party

Just a bit of helpful information :hi:

OnEdit: wrong provacative DUer
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #135
136. in big letters too, I'll bet
Aside--to where do you refer?

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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #135
137. no
doesn't work for me. FDR is a closer representation to that ideal for me.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #137
139. OK
what did FDR stand for? How does the Democratic party best represent the ideals that FDR brought to this country? Howard Dean?
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. It is my understanding
that there were candidates to the left of FDR and he viewed them with contempt - That FDR actually preserved capitalism in the US.

Something to think about.

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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #141
143. because they were keeping him in line
if they hadn't been there advocating further sweeps away from the corporatist system, FDR may not have seen the political importance of making "social security" (damn commies) such a strong and well protected institution...hell, even today it's being threatened, and Democrats say "well, we only have to partially undercut social security to save it" :eyes:
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #124
144. I read 2 messages in the basenote

One is that Dennis's policies alone embody the principles to which the party now pays periodic lip service, and the principles most DUers claim to believe in and desire.

The other is that as long as we go on selling ourselves out, we are guaranteed never to get what we claim we want.


I don't think 1 is true: Sharpton's policies also embody those same principles.

I believe in the second one, though.

You're strongly pro-Palestinian. What if it turns out that Dean really is Sharon's poodle? How happy will you feel about your choice then? Will you be able to take comfort in having chosen from a place of integrity? Or will you have to sweet-lemon yourself?

I compromised myself in 2000 and then found that Gore was even worse than I had thought. I can't tell myself I chose from a place of integrity, because I didn't. And that hurts. I sold myself out and then didn't even get the Lesser Evil. I'm not going to do that again, because it's clearly not a sure-fire receipe for even partial success. So I'm going to fully value myself from now on, and never sell out again. And if too many other people make a different choice, then I'll either live with the result or try to emigrate. But either way I'll know I've done all one person can do.

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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #144
182. HHHHEEEEELLLLOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Save the sermon. At least Dean had the guts to even mention the issue of Israel. HHHHEEEEEELLLLOOOOOO, Kucinich--Here was your opportunity to speak up for all the values of human rights and justice---here was your chance to make a difference and make a stand and do the right thing and I. did. not. hear. a. damn. word. When the going gets tough...big talk no action.

And btw, it is not "pro-Palestinian" it is pro-human rights and elemental fairness---principles supposedly embraced by those on the Left---IN PRACTICE not just rhetoric.
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #124
177. "So this entire thread slams anyone..."
"...who may believe other than the author of the thread--"

No, it really doesn't. If principles are the whole point, it says dammit, quit playing games with your own intuition. It says VOTE your principles or sell-out, but don't gripe because you can't do both at once. Pick a course and go, but don't try to play the middle ground because in this bloody mess there isn't any middle ground to stand on.

It's the same thing I've been trying to tell people since 2000.
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #100
110. "CMB, regretably, is not as progressive as either DK or AS."
I realize that, and I guess I'm not either... she fits just right about where I am near as I can tell, and thats the truth.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #110
118. Then you should certainly give money to and vote for her!
If she really is the one who best represents where you're at, then you're betraying yourself by voting for anyone else. There's no way on Earth she'll succeed unless people believe in themselves and in her. It doesn't take even one more vote to elect her than it does to elect anyone else.


"Don't compromise yourself. You're all you've got."
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #118
121. Read my original post
Edited on Fri Sep-12-03 10:58 AM by indigo32
though I may actually give money to her and see how things shake out. Vote for her in the primaries... we'll see.
"don't compromise yourself. You're all you've got." Life involves lots of compromises...I'll never get everything I want. I'm doing what I feel I have to given the reality of the situation. I really believe that we'll be better off under Howard Dean and that he can win. I don't feel bad about supporting him.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #121
140. Okay
You're certainly entitled to do what you like. But in fairness to yourself, shouldn't you do it with open eyes, willing to own that you're settling for less than you really want? Unless Dean fits for you better than CMB does, you're giving up part of your hopes and desires in return for (what you see as) safety. The times I've done that, it's hurt and I've not felt happy or even clean, after. Is it different with you?
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #97
119. because we know what kind of racists fill the Democratic party?
At least with Kucinich, his being a white male will not hurt him. Should I be proud of that fact? Well, lessee, who are the idiots who keep telling me I have to vote Dem party no matter what?

OH ok...principles...oh, no! Loyalty! Loyalty to racists? Oh yeah! Whatever you have to do! :eyes: :nuke:
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
95. Kucinich is the heart of the Democratic party

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HPLeft Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #95
165. Reminds me GB Shaw
As George Bernard Shaw put it, "if you're not a socialist at 19, you have no heart. If you're still a socialist at 29, you have no brain."
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
98. StarPass...my hats off to you for this from the heart and "SOUL" post!
:toast:....in the face of TRUTH there is nothing to say except ......I KNOW
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
101. Thank you, Starpass
You make a persuasive case.
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DemLikr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
103. The title of your post is obnoxious
Edited on Fri Sep-12-03 09:37 AM by DemLikr
If everyone here acted out their anger issues like you seem to be doing in this post, DU would implode.

Next time, think about using a bit more of a constructive approach.

And...I'm amazed by all the ass-kissing "thank you, Starpass" responses in this thread. Puh-leeeeeeeeeeeeeease.

:eyes:
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #103
105. 103 reply's in agreement so far seems to disagree with your opinion DemLi
:crazy:
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #103
111. You must have missed
"and I'm one of you"
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DemLikr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #111
132. I'm referring to the title: SHUT THE FUCK UP
Edited on Fri Sep-12-03 11:29 AM by DemLikr
Seems to me this is a gutter-level post title, which would have been deleted had it been placed on the board by er, uh, well...just ANYONE.

But then again, every human enterprise has its hierarchy. One of its members here has an angry potty mouth.
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roughsatori Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #132
151. I agree about the title
I actually clicked no the thread to mention the coarseness of the title, but I was won over by the actual post and let it go. I am not calling for censorship, I just don't personally like foul language--particularly when it is used in public, which a message board is. I did think the post content was touching.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #132
156. I thought you hated the language police... guess not
:D
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DemLikr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #156
170. Oh nooooooo...It's not the language, its' the sentiment: SHUT UP!
Edited on Sat Sep-13-03 10:20 AM by DemLikr
"FUCK" just makes it even more bossy and annoying.

My natural reply, in the same vein as the reasoned tone set by this inital thread post, would be "FUCK YOU, ASSHOLE. I SAY WHAT THE HELL I WANT, WHEN THE FUCKING HELL I WANT TO!"

And I'm rubber, you're glue, and all that other shit.

I just don't see how this is not an alertable post, other than that it was posted by a longtime DUer, who apparently has gained a status where he/she can write anything without consequence.

:D:D:D

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CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #103
127. Big Hug, DemLikr
You've posted what I felt in my heart. Thank you.
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shugah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
107. great post Starpass!
but i have to reiterate the oft-mentioned "if everyone who wants to vote for dennis does..."

:shrug: he's only unelectable if we don't elect him.
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #107
109. Shugah
We aren't the only ones voting in this election, it's as simple as that.
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shugah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #109
138. "we" as in "we the people"
not "we" as in "we the lefty loonies here on DU."
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
112. So then...you need both 'fuck' and 'bullshit' in a thread title...
...to get any sort of response around here?

- Just kidding...Starpass always has good posts.

- But I don't quite understand why everyone is choosing candidates so early in the game. It's too much like gambling to me.

- That said...I'll support the candidate that kicks the Bush* administration's ass...not to appeal to voters...but because it's the right thing to do.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #112
116. Either that or "Yak" or "Sex" ;)
It is too early. The only reason I can confidently go for Kucinich is because I've been following his fights for years. They were my fights and I know what he did (GMOs, WTO, the war, health care). He's not some horse out of nowhere for me. He's already been the one "kicking the Bush* administration's ass" and I've yet to see that with any of the other candidates except for Sharpton. IMO this explains why the committed activists are mostly going for Kucinich.

It's too late for words right now. I need past actions and Kucinich has got them!

But still, for people who haven't been following, I agree...

Peace
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DemLikr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #112
133. 'motherfucker' and 'cocksucker' if it's a REALLY serious post...
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
113. Excellent Passionate Post Starpass !
It spoke straight to my heart! If I can offer you some words of comfort---

I've spoken to many of those old-time DUers you mentioned and they are leaning towards Kucinich but they stay out of the candidate threads to retain their sanity because they've seen what's going on.

Do you not notice all the names missing from these threads? I can tell you for my area alone, they be not be posting at DU but they have read, observed and already made up their minds.

When I go to Kucinich events, I see many DUers from my area who just don't want to be involved in the dishonest discussions, head burying, and star gazing that's been going on.

Kucinich is doing great... The people who waited for him have not disappointed you! The Progressives who posted and discussed issues for the last 3 years and know what to watch out for have already made up their mind. We're in great shape! :)
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Tigerlily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #113
163. Hearing "A Prayer for America"
was the turning point for me, Tinoire. :)

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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #163
176. It was truly wondrous!
I broke down in tears when I heard that!

There really is a different kind of Dem!

Peace



IMAGINE!


DARE TO DREAM~
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
114. Most people here realize that the country is not as liberal DU is
That is why Kucinich can't win. Fortunatley most people are realistic enough to realize this. This is a campaign, not a religious crucade. We could have 10% unemployment and all Bush would have to say is that Kucinich want to cut the defense budget to fund a Department of Peace. The election would be over.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #114
117. Good that not everyone thinks so little of USAians as you seem to
I'm with Jefferson: the people know which side of their bread the butter's on{1}






1. It's on the side that's against the carpet at the moment, thanks to SmirkCo.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #117
142. I don't "think little of them"
I am just aknowledging that the American electorate is not as liberal as the average DUer is. In fact, the average Democrat is not even that liberal.

And many DUers recognize that. That is why more DUers support Dean that support Kucinich. It's a question of electability.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #142
146. I think 'imagining' is the verb you want, not 'acknowledging'
'Aknowledge' implies a truth, but in fact you have no evidence of your assertion. So you're 'imagining', or possibly 'imputing'. But you're not 'acknowledging' except in your own mind.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #146
185. Do you really think that the average American is as liberal Kucinich?
Edited on Sat Sep-13-03 04:28 PM by Freddie Stubbs
Bush recieved almost 48% of the vote in 2000. For the past four elections, the American voters have sent more Democrats than Republicans to Congress. Are these the actions of an electorate that is is liberal of DU? Oh course not.

Fortunately most Democrats are smart enough to realize that. That is why candidates like Kucinich, Sharpton and Braun are in single digits, and a candidate like Kerry, Dean, and Clark will the nominee.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #185
187. I'd suggest you read Saul Alinsky's analyses of community apathy
He points out that the conventional wisdom about, e.g., the Back Of The Yards community was that they were apathetic and uncaring. He thought they were disorganised and felt powerless. He was right. Once they had a reason to feel that they counted, they stood up. All those apathetic, uncaring people stood up and made themselves heard for the first time in their adult lives.

There are about 100M people who sit out election after election. But I'll bet with Alinsky: it ain't because they don't care.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #142
147. That's the same thinking that got us Dukakis in 1988, Mondale in 1984
It's also the same thinking that will sink this party even further into the quagmire of "meaninglessness".

Dean's already waffling on stuff, and we haven't even had the first primary. He's starting to show his "political" colors-- that he's not afraid to change his position if the wind changes direction. Do you think that will suddenly stop if he's face-to-face with RoveCo.? I for one highly doubt it.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #114
122. That's what I said in 1988, and others said of Wellstone in 1990
I sold out my beliefs in the fighter (Jackson) and worked for the "electable" conciliator (Dukakis).

I think we know what happened then. :(

I learned my lesson. I went with my beliefs. AND WON.
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HPLeft Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #122
164. Jackson!
Be serious. The man is the ultimate panderer. As I'm fond of saying, I don't want to part of any group that has Jesse Jackson or Jesse Helms as an active member.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #164
178. we KNEW he couldn't win
and we KNEW he was a bad a politician as the rest of them, but at least he spoke the TRUTH.

(BTW, I first met and worked with Paul Wellstone in 1987-88, when he was chair of Minnesota's Jackson campaign, and still a professor at Carleton College. Thank God Wellstone didn't think the way you currently do.)
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HPLeft Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #178
180. Don't be so sure
Edited on Sat Sep-13-03 01:49 PM by HPLeft
I'm not all that familiar with Wellstone's positions across the board, so I will not comment on his life and work. He sounded like a lovely man.
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chadm Donating Member (480 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #114
131. Bullshit
That would make people stop what they're doing and listen. It would be a new dawn.
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HPLeft Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #114
166. Yep
I think Kucinich's entire base of support posts to this group. People compare a Dean run with McGovern, but Jimmy Carter is a much better analogy (as the Democratic professionals suggest). A Kucinich nomination might well lead to a McGovern type rout - since, right or wrong, his positions are way out in front the current American consensus.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
123. Thank you Starpass, I indeed needed your rant
Dennis is a good man and I like him. And it certainly wouldn't hurt my feelings to see him go all the way.

And you are %100 right and O.K. in my book.

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chadm Donating Member (480 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
125. That's what I've been thinking ever since I've heard of him
On the whole DK represents the sentiments expressed here. If you guys stopped thinking about elusive notion electability and, instead, focused on your vision for America, I would consider calling myself a Democrat again.

The American people haven't seen leadership for so many years that they are starving for it. Give them a visionary leader and they will respond in a landslide election.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
130. how very true !! thank you starpass n/t
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
148. I have no problem voting my conscience in the primary.
None at all. I feel that even if my choice does not win the primary, the winner can beat *. I think we are very fortunate to have so many good candidates and by the time of the primary I think those who have little chance will have dropped out.
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roughsatori Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
150. Thanks for the wake up call
Very touching post.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-12-03 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
157. Kick ass post, Starpass!
:thumbsup:
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 06:35 AM
Response to Original message
161. bump
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Tigerlily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
162. Thanks Starpass!
It needed to be said. :hi:



GO DENNIS!!!
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buddhamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #162
175. hi,Tigerlily
good to see you. :hi:
you have been missed!
agree about DK.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #162
183. I knew he was your man, Tiger.
Nice to see ya!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
171. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #171
179. LOL You freak you!
I couldn't help it, I agree wholeheartedly with SP, but you're too funny! *smooooch*:*
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DemLikr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #179
181. U made my day.
Smooch back. :*
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
173. I'm sick of those who act sanctimonious about the war, then
pass over Kucinich to support Dean who was FOR the Biden-Lugar version of the use of force similar to the Iraq resolution. Then they have the GALL to complain about those who voted for the resolution when their candidate was for use of force to disarm Iraq, too.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
184. You know, Dennis IS a worthy lost cause
TThere's a donation thread authored by Will Pitt floating on GD ...look it up and hook it up.

While I'm solid Dean, I tip my hat to a most worthy and noble opponent.

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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-13-03 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #184
186. the cause isnt lost
Thanks for the compliment but it aint over till its over. Anything can happen and I think you know that better than I as a Dean supporter. For fall could be the time where Kucinich pulls ahead. Anything can happen. The cause aint lost, even if he does lose the nomination.
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