If you were in a persistent vegetative state...

[Dookus]

Poll question: If you were in a persistent vegetative state...

Would you wish to be kept alive as long as possible, at all costs, or would you wish to be removed from life support so you could pass on?

I'm curious what DUers want for themselves. There seems to be a contingent who thinks that there is a good likelihood that Terri Schiavo wanted her body to be kept alive as long as possible. Personally, I've never met anyone who expressed that wish.

[leftofthedial]

1. I AM in a persistent vegetative state.

Why do you think I read your threads?

:-)

[Dookus]

2. that's it...

I'm pulling your plug.

[leftofthedial]

39. I won't tell the neotheocons

that you are a veggie murderer

[yvr girl]

3. I don't know that I'd want the plug pulled immediately...

I had a friend who was in a coma for 3 months and then came out of it. But if nothing could be done, it's no way to live.

[Dookus]

6. well

a coma is not the same as PVS. Nobody is advocating removing support from people who may recover.

[AZCat]

8. His eyes are closed - pull the plug!

What, you were just napping?

Jeez, some people are sooooo sensitive...

[yvr girl]

14. Granted.

I just think it's a pretty solemn thing to end a life. But I have no desire to be hooked up to tubes for years.

[Andy_Stephenson]

4. My response...and it is my wish now...if things go sideways

Remove life support and let me go

[all.of.me]

26. we have it in writing now!

is this your official document, andy?!

[Andy_Stephenson]

35. Yes indeed it is.

I would not want to wind up like my sister. She was on life support the last 2 days of her life. If I were to wind up like that...just let me go please.

[all.of.me]

36. we will, but....

... everything will be fine, which should have been the p.s. of my other post.

sorry about your sister. that must have been tough.

[Auntie Bush]

43. My son was on life support for a week....and we pulled the plug.

I cry whenever I think about it and this is the first time I've ever mentioned it on DU. I only say this because I think it proves my belief that we shouldn't be kept on life support if we have no quality of life or awareness of our existence. It's hard but it has to be done. Five other people are alive because of his gift...but it doesn't give me much consolation. However, Terri's parents might feel a little better or get some satisfaction if they were to donate her healthy organs and save some other people. But I certainly understand how and why they can't let go.

[Dookus]

45. Aww

I'm so sorry, Auntie Bush. I can't imagine a more painful situation to be in.

I'm glad you can find some comfort in the knowledge that his loss saved a few other people.

[LisaL]

5. Maybe you should ask who among us would like to be

starved to death? There is no plug to pull.

[Dookus]

7. It's just another form of life support

Would you feel better if it were legal to euthanize her? Or is this just a red herring?

[Auntie Bush]

18. If you are already dead...then you won't be uncomfortable starving.

I really wouldn't worry because her brain doesn't register pain.
Even a healthy person doesn't feel pain if they are unconscious.

[mondo joe]

20. Or asphyxiated? The feeding tube is life support, just like a respirator

Whether you have the respirator, the feeding tube or any other life support removed, you die as a result.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

137. If you are in a vegetative state, would you even know that you're hungry?

[Dookus]

138. No

you would not.

[More Than A Feeling]

9. Starved or plug pulled, its all good.

If I am gone, it does noone any good to keep my body alive. Let me state now, for the record...IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS HOLY AND DECENT, IF I AM DEAD, LET ME GO!

[Sabriel]

I was hoping you'd ask, "Would you still vote for Bush?"

The answer's no, of course.

[Auntie Bush]

10. Are her parents Christians? If they are...

aren't they depriving her of being with God and she isn't here with them either?

[traco]

68. If God truly wanted her

there isn't a machine or person on earth that could keep him from taking her!

[mondo joe]

110. By that token, if god wanted her to live removing life support wouldn't

By that token, if god wanted her to live removing life support wouldn't result in her death.

[Dookus]

113. Mondo

just a note. You don't need to retype the subject line in the message. It's sort of distracting. You can start a sentence in the subject line and just continue it in the body.

[traco]

116. Maybe, if they gave her a chance to see if she could swallow!

They wont even do that. They just remove her nutrition and hydration, and let her lay there to die!

[ultraist]

11. They don't know for sure if she is in a persistent vegetative state

Did you read the recent NYT article on the new research on brain damaged patients? They have discovered that 30% of these patients are misdiagnosed AND they have discovered a new test to measure brain waves. The current test they use is not very sophisticated.

If it were my loved one, I would exhaust ALL possible tests and treatments before I starved them to death. She does not have a terminal illness.

[Dookus]

13. come on

yes, they know she's in a PVS because she has no cerebral cortex. An article discussing brain-damage does NOT apply to this case.

All possible tests and treatments HAVE been exhausted, within reason. Yes, there's always one other quack therapy to try, but she's been in this state for many years, the bulk of her brain is literally gone, and the courts have backed up her husband at every step of the way.

[ultraist]

21. No, they don't know for sure. Medicine is NOT an exact science

There is a LOT they don't know about the brain. And NEW research shows the original diagnosis may be incorrect. Furthermore, she has not had the new test.

If it were my daughter, I would NOT starve her to death at this point. She is not suffering and in pain as she is healthy. She has no conditions, such as tumors, that cause pain.

If she were suffering, I would approach it differently, but she's not. She DID look responsive in those videos, did you see them?

[Dookus]

24. Yes I did

if you're referring to the highly-edited, illegally shot videos made by her parents in which they shine lights to get her "attention" for hours and then piece together a few minutes of what look like "responsiveness".

They're bullshit. They're lies. The courts have ruled so.

[mondo joe]

28. Her cerebral cortex is GONE. Not damaged - GONE.

Or are you suggesting someone can regrow the cortex now?

I'm glad you brought up the scam video in which the parents trigger automatic nervous responses -


"The trial court heard testimony from five experts: two selected by Michael, two selected by the Schindlers, and one independent expert selected by the trial court. The two experts selected by Michael and the independent expert agreed that Terri was in a persistent vegetative state and that her actions were limited to mere reflexes. The two experts chosen by the Schindlers disagreed, but the trial court found their positions not credible. For instance, the trial court explained:

At first blush, the video of Terry Schiavo appearing to smile and look lovingly at her mother seemed to represent cognition. This was also true for how she followed the Mickey Mouse balloon held by her father. The court has carefully viewed the videotapes as requested by counsel and does find that these actions were neither consistent nor reproducible. For instance, Terry Schiavo appeared to have the same look on her face when Dr. Cranford rubbed her neck. Dr. Greer testified she had a smile during his (non-videoed) examination. Also, Mr. Schindler tried several more times to have her eyes follow the Mickey Mouse balloon but without success. Also, she clearly does not consistently respond to her mother. The court finds that based on the credible evidence, cognitive function would manifest itself in a constant response to stimuli.

The experts also disagreed about whether any treatment could improve Terri's condition. The two experts selected by the Schindlers each proposed a potential therapy method, but the trial court rejected both of them based on "the total absence of supporting case studies or medical literature.""

(http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html)

[ultraist]

40. Why are you two tag teaming my posts here and other the other thread?

Whatever. I have a different opinion. Neurology is NOT an exact Science and there is a LOT they still don't know.

Remember those orphan babies that showed to have severe brain damage and then later acquired brain activity in parts of the brain not normally used? The knowledge on brains is VERY LIMITED. Furthermore, there were doctors that testified that she does have some brain activity. And she has NOT had the new test yet.

I'm not just buying into this 'starve her now,' her husband is a 'hero' because the parents are associated with a fundie group. We don't know what her husband's motives are. He could be a total sleazebag abuser for all we know. Her injuries were suspicious.

When my father was terminal with cancer that had metastasized, he signed a DNR and we seriously considered the morphine route to end his suffering. But he had made his wishes clear that he wanted this and was in excruciating pain. This is not the case with this woman. No one knows for sure what her wishes are. She is not in pain.

[mondo joe]

42. The court record shows he's taken exceptional care of her

By your standard there would never be a time to remove life support because any day now there might be some miracle treatment.

And you choose to ignore the fact that he was proven in court to have taken exceptionally good care of Terri.

You choose to ignore that the court determined she did not want to be keppt on life support based on credible witnesses to her saying so.

You choose to ignore the fact that he was accused of wrongdoing and cleared.

And you choose to ignore the fact that her parents have said they would not remove life support EVEN IF they knew she requested it.

I'm sure it's easier to go with your feelings rather than the facts.

[ultraist]

49. It was proven he took "adequate care"

Adequate care means the basics were met. It does not mean she recieved the best possible treatment available.

And no one knows for sure what she would have wanted. It was all hearsay.

You also didn't consider that he did NOT spend all of that malpractice money on HER TREATMENT. If it were my loved one, I would be spending every penny of it and more to try to provide THE BEST medical care avaialable. He didn't do that.

It's a lot easier to accept, oh well, he met the low standards of level of care required by law, so let her starve. I have higher standards than that for handicapped persons.

[mondo joe]

51. No, better than adequate. And she's not "handicapped".

From the 2nd District's first decision:

"Theresa has been blessed with loving parents and a loving husband. Many patients in this condition would have been abandoned by friends and family within the first year. Michael has continued to care for her and to visit her all these years. He has never divorced her. He has become a professional respiratory therapist and works in a nearby hospital. As a guardian, he has always attempted to provide optimum treatment for his wife. He has been a diligent watch guard of Theresa's care, never hesitating to annoy the nursing staff in order to assure that she receives the proper treatment."

And she's not handicapped - SHE's not there. Her cerebral cortex is GONE.

[ultraist]

61. Who made that statement? Link?

"he has always ATTEMPTED to provide optimum care" does not mean she did have had the BEST medical treatment available.

Legally, she IS handicapped. Why do you think the handicap advocates are involved? That is why he has "legal guardianship." Spouses do not have "guardianship" over a full functioning spouse.

[mondo joe]

64. Here you go -

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[ultraist]

76. Which 2nd district opinion is that? There are numerous

I'm not interested in weeding through all of those opinions. If you don't know WHO made that statement (a witness, his attorney, the judge) and cannot reference it, is doesn't really mean anything.

Regardless, there is a big difference between "tried to provide" or provided adequate care and provided the best possible treatment. Warehousing someone in a public facility is not the best care. Taking someone to Duke or the Mayo clinic, depending on the condition is providing better care.

[mondo joe]

85. Fine - live in your imagination. I'll stick with the facts.

No matter who said it, at every turn the courts have upheld the decision.

You have here admitted that you're not interested in the record - that's fine. But your imagined scenarios hold no interest for me.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

96. When you want to talk facts, records, medicine I'm ready

If you want to indulge in fantasy, I'm not interested.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[traco]

75. Credible witnesses?

Her cheating husband (he remembered this ONLY after receiving a large settlement that was suppose to be used for her rehabilitation), Her cheating husbands brother, and her cheating husbands sister-in-law. Real credible!

[mondo joe]

86. They were found credible and reliable in court - whereas the parents lied

They were found credible and reliable in court - whereas the parents lied in court and afterwards.

We KNOW the parents are liars.

[Dookus]

44. we're not tag-teaming

we just both disagree with you. it's not coordinated.

You refuse to address the real issue - this is NOT about recovering capacity in the event of brain damage. This is NOT brain damage. The cortex is GONE.

It does NOT grow back. Why do you keep bringing up these other issues that have nothing to do with this case? If Terri were merely brain damaged, but still had an intact cortex, nobody would suggest ending her life. But that is not the case, and you know it.

[ultraist]

54. Whatever. We have no say anyway

Why get snarky about it?

If I were her parents and truly believed that she didn't want to die and that there was a possibility she could regain some of her faculties, I would fight for more time and more treatment, especially in light of the new research.

Handicapped persons sometimes need someone other than the spouse to advocate for them. This may well be a case of that. We do NOT know if this husband is trustworthy. Why didn't he intervene with her bulimia and why is it, they did not conclusively determine that she did NOT have injuries? Considering he was only married to her for five years, then later hooked up with another woman and spent some of the malpractice settlement money on himself, I'd say there is cause to be suspicious of this guy.

[Dookus]

58. You only suspect

the husband of not being trustworthy because you believe the right-wing filth being promulgated by Randall Terry and his fanatic cohorts.

We KNOW the parents are liars! They illegally taped her, and edited the tape to try to show something that wasn't there. So we have established that THEY are liars. Nobody has ever come close to establishing anything similar about Michael.

[ultraist]

70. No, we don't KNOW the parents don't really believe she wants to live

And that she can regain some of her faculties.

A NURSE stated that the husband said on numerous occassions, "is the bitch dead yet?" There were also allegations that he abused her prior to her condition and she DID have injuries. There has been testimony on BOTH SIDES of this issue.

You are only presenting one side.

[mondo joe]

73. The courts have heard both sides EVERY TIME and EVERY TIME found against

The courts have heard both sides EVERY TIME and EVERY TIME found against the parents.

And we do know the parents have testified that they would disregard Terri's wishes to have life support removed even if they KNEW she requested it.

[mondo joe]

59. Funny how you ignore the court case in favor of imagination

Funny how you ignore the court case in favor of your imagined villainy.

[ultraist]

80. Whatever. I'm done with reading you twos insults. Grow up

You have NOT provided any facts yet you accuse me of "siding with the right wing" or "imagined villainy" or "believing feelings over facts" when you DO NOT HAVE ALL OF THE FACTS and are simply siding with him because they are associated with fundies.

The guy appears to be a sleaze bag.

BTW, I am NOT a Christian and I support euthanasia and abortion.

Go find someone else to insult with your immature remarks.

[mondo joe]

90. "I'm not listening LALALALALA" Fine. Don't listen to the facts.

Ignore the court cases.

Ignore the testimony.

Ignore the medical findings.

[LittleClarkie]

52. Not to mention that the husband could simply walk away

and let the family care for her.

I just had this conversation with someone last night. There is no Dem truth vs Repub truth vs atheist truth vs fundy truth.

That the family is fundy should have no bearing if the woman's brain activity is still in dispute, as well as the husband's motives.

That said, considering Jeb Bush is involved, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that my perception of the husband has been colored by BFEE propaganda. Perhaps he is a better man than I've heard.

I just wish all of this hadn't become a political issue.

[mondo joe]

55. If he were my husband I wouldn't want him to walk away.

I'd want him to carry out his responsibility to see to my request, and not abandon me to those psycho parents.

[LittleClarkie]

57. How do we know for sure they're psycho

We're only observers. We don't know these people, do we?

Do you have a good source of info on this case that makes plain what's going on without bias?

[mondo joe]

62. Other than their testimony that they'd disregard her wishes ANYWAY?

Other than their testimony that they'd disregard her wishes even if they KNEW she requested no life support?

Other than their repeated lies in court?

Other than their scam video prompting her automatic responses and pretending to have a conversation?

I guess other than all that I have no way to know.

[LittleClarkie]

71. Credible news source on the issue please

How do you know these things.

I ask again, what is a good source of info on this issue?

[mondo joe]

81. Here you go - link and all

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/orl-locmiket25022505feb25,1,4110236.column?ctrack=1&cset=true

Why doesn't Michael simply turn Terri over to her family?

From the report: "Testimony provided by members of the Schindler family included very personal statements about their desire and intention to ensure that Theresa remain alive . . . at any and all costs. Nearly gruesome examples were given, eliciting agreement by family members that in the event Theresa should contract diabetes and subsequent gangrene in each of her limbs, they would agree to amputate each limb and would then, were she to be diagnosed with heart disease, perform open-heart surgery. Within the testimony, as part of the hypothetical presented, Schindler family members stated that even if Theresa had told them of her intention to have artificial nutrition withdrawn, they would not do it."

Wolfson told me that when Michael heard this, he said: "That's it. I'm never going to let that happen to her."

[ultraist]

88. That journalists summary does not prove he has her best interest at heart

Just because the husband says he does, does not make it so. There is NO WAY anyone can PROVE that what his motives are.

Is he due to receive a life insurance policy? Is he avoiding getting sued for that malpractice money he spent on himself? Is that why he wants her to die?

Why did he shack up with some other woman before he was divorced rather than stay loyal to his wife? Did he abuse her? Did he cause those injuries? These questions have not been answered.

Do you have any idea of how many abuse cases don't get "proven?" Apparently not. When I worked at Social Services, I saw many cases of abused women where they could NOT PROVE the abuse. It does happen.

[Dookus]

92. Why are you parroting

so many right-wing talking points, and using right-wing language to do so? "Shacking up"? LOL

If you've read this thread and the other you participated in, you would KNOW (and I think you DO know) that the money was spent on Terri's care AND on lawyers to fight off her parents' spurious attempts to seize control of her. It was done with court approval. There is no possibility that there was illegal spending of the money, because the COURT APPROVED IT! And you KNOW that! Why keep repeating right-wing lies?

He did not abuse her - there is no evidence whatsoever that he did. Again, you KNOW that. Why keep repeating right-wing lies?

[ultraist]

100. I haven't read any right wing talking points on this at all.

Why are you spewing ONE side and not thinking about the other implications. I could give a flying fuck what the nut fundies have to say about this. They do not influence my oppinions on anything.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

108. Again, when you want to talk the facts of the case I'm here.

Until then, if you want to deny the evidence JUST LIKE the tobacco execs insisting there is "no conclusive evidence" I'll highlight that.

[traco]

79. If he were your husband

you would be ok with him having an affair, fathering 2 bastard children and still making end of life decisions for you?

[Dookus]

82. LOL

good lord, that is straight out of some other discussion board.

having an affair and fathering "bastard" children? Are you for real?

His wife was brain dead for many years before he started sharing the company of another woman.

And generally, liberals don't refer to children as bastards anymore. It's sort of archaic and stupid.

[traco]

98. She still is not "brain dead"

She has brain damage! Totally different thing.

[Dookus]

111. She has no cerebral cortex

Why do I have to type that so many times?

There is nothing left of the part of the brain that creates consciousness and awareness.

She is in a persistent vegetative state from which she CANNOT recover.

[traco]

122. Have you personally examined her?

If not, you don't know this for absolute fact!

[Dookus]

132. I haven't examined her

but even if I did, it would be pointless. I'm not a neurologist.

However, reputable and educated people HAVE examined her and have demonstrated to the satisfaction of the courts that her cerebral cortex is gone and she has no chance of recovery.

This has gone on for many, many years, and the courts have consistently rejected the idea that there is any hope of her "recovering".

If you required absolute fact for everything, you'd be paralyzed. Is it an absolute fact that your car is not going to blow up when you start it? Is it an absolute fact that your water heater won't kill you tonight with carbon monoxide? Is it an absolute fact that coffee you drink tomorrow won't be poisoned?

There's really no such requirement in day-to-day life. We go by the preponderance of the evidence, and deal with meaningful likelihoods.

There is no meaningful likelihood that Terri Schiavo will grow a new cortex.

[mondo joe]

Yes. I'd want him to have a life. And "bastard children" indeed.

I'd want him to have love and companionship.

I'd want him to see his obligation to me through - especially to safeguard me from parents who wouldn't honor my choices.

[Feathered Fish]

12. My dad

is one of those people that would want to be kept alive by any means necessary. The only reason I can think of is that he has a huge fear of death, because he isn't religious by any means.
I for one don't think it's worth the burden to be kept alive artificially, for anyone: my family who would have to deal with every fluctuation in my condition, or the pain of knowing that nothing is changing and the cost of care would be better spent on someone else.
However these decisions need to be made before the fact, and dammit, someone better start listening. As for Terri Schiavo, I don't know that much about the case, so I am not in a place to judge.

[Dookus]

15. well

I'm not religious by any means, and have no unusual fear of death. In fact, I don't think there's any correlation between religiosity and non-fear of death. In fact, my experience suggests the opposite.

[mondo joe]

17. My nurse friend who did hospice work said the more religious

My nurse friend who did hospice work said the more religious patients often had much more fear about death.

[Auntie Bush]

23. Maybe it's because they are afraid of going to hell.

[Feathered Fish]

38. Their expectations are really high and

they don't want to be let down.

[ultraist]

84. Your friend told you? Oh that makes it fact then...whatever

[mondo joe]

119. No, it makes it her experience.

That is, however, more reliable than your projections.

[Feathered Fish]

37. I should be more clear

I was talking pretty specifically about my dad and what I know about him. He is elderly but he is also a rational man. When it comes to a situation like this, however, he wants everything that can be done, done. If it includes keeping him alive in a perma-veg state, so be it.
Now I was just throwing out 2 potential reasons why he may want this, and one of them, religiosity, is honestly not an issue in his life, so I went with the other potential reason.
I could be way off base, but this is my impression of HIS reasoning.

[mondo joe]

16. I'm horrified to think someone could prevent my spouse from carrying out

I'm horrified to think someone could prevent my spouse from carrying out my wishes on this matter.

My parents wouldn't stop him, and in my wisened middle age I've done all I could to legally ensure no one could stop him.

But it's still awful to think some family member could tie things up in court for so long against my wishes for myself.

[ultraist]

41. What if you were married to a nut...

And you had loving parents...and you were disabled. Would you want the courts to have the power to intervene and remove you from the abuse and place you under someone's custody who was not abusive?

The courts already have this power through Adult Protective Services. If they can show she is being abused or neglected, they can terminate his legal guardianship over her.

If I look at just MY personal situation, no I would not want my parents to have a say over my husband because I trust my husband. But not every handicapped spouse has a trustworthy partner. This is why the courts have the power to intervene.

Now, these parents may not be able to show he is neglectful/abusive or any solid reason why he should lose his legal guardianship over her because she is in a home. BUT, the fact that she has not received as much treatment as is available, may show cause.

[mondo joe]

46. Why would I marry a nut?

The courts HAVE intervened and found Michael Schiavo to be a caring, dedicated and capable caregiver.

I chose a spouse and I chose that spouse to be my legal guardian in the event I am incapacitated. I expect that choice to be honored, and I'm horrified that someone would do to us what has been done to the Schiavos.

[ultraist]

95. Oh, that's a mature response

I was setting up a hypothetical. IF someone was married to a nut...

Not all people choose spouses who can be trusted. The world is not JUST LIKE only YOUR REALITY.

That's why there is ADULT PROTECTIVE SERVICES which apparently you have never heard of.

[mondo joe]

99. If someone marries a nut they have chosen poorly

And if someone is believed to be abusive it will be investigated.

Michael Schiavo has REPEATEDLY been found to be a caring and responsible spouse.

That doesn't suit your fantasy so you reject it.

[Dookus]

47. yes

the courts DO have the power to intervene in such cases, but despite years of attempts by the Schiavos, the courts have upheld Michael's position every step of the way. The courts have rejected every baseless allegation made against him.

If I didn't feel so bad for what the parents were going through, I'd like to see some criminal charges against them for abusing the court system and slandering Michael.

On edit; Further, if you didn't trust your spouse, you could make a living will and durable power of attorney designating somebody else. Terri evidently did not feel the need to do so.

But again, WHY does this issue bring out all the right-wing lies? There is NO evidence for half the shit you allege, and that has been made clear time and time again. You are quoting Randall Terry websites.

[Gold Metal Flake]

19. Feed me to the Soylent Green machine.

It's low in carbs!

[maveric]

22. I work with comatose patients and wouldnt want to be ket like that.

Families just cant let go sometimes. Often they are in denial and swear that they are communication with the patient. Other times family members need the patient alive to continue to collect a pension check of some sort.

I told me kids some time back, thati dont want to be "kept" like that.

[Technowitch]

25. My instructions, both to my same-sex wife and in our legal papers

"Pull the plug, strip my lifeless corpse for any usable parts, burn the rest, and sprinkle the ashes in our sacred redwood grove."

Although last night I saw an episode of Stargate SG-1 where someone was put on one of those huge funeral pyres. Somehow that seems an even more glorious way to go, than to be stuck into some damp hole in the ground, or burned in an oven.

[mondo joe]

Mine's similar, but I want my ashes shoved down Jerry Falwell's throat

:-)

[napi21]

27. Because of this case, I drew up a living will.

There are some state laws that say once a feeding tube is inserted, it cannot be removed. My Uncle in Pa. went through that. He had a stroke at age 74, and was on a feeding tube for 16 years! Every time I visisted him, I said I NEVER wanted to be like that. I know he wouldn't have either.

The laws of the State of Pa. forbid the removal of the feeding tube once the decision has been made to put it in.

My living will states "ABSOLUTELY NO RESUSITATION AND NO ARTIFICIAL MEANS OF PRESERVATION."

I can only hope some damn court doesn't decide against my wishes.

[Dookus]

29. Well

as I suspected, the vote is now 45-0

Do the Randall Terry allies here want to continue to claim that there's a high likelihood that Terri wanted to be kept alive for as long as possible?

[Locut0s]

30. Give me an overdose of painkillers, don't slowly starve me to death.

[Dookus]

31. alas

that's not legal.

But I agree with you that it should be. In this case, it makes no difference to Terri Schiavo, but it would be easier on those who love her. We should treat our fellow humans with as much dignity as we'd give our pets.

[mondo joe]

32. Of course it's also true that some docs *accidentally* give a bit too much

Of course it's also true that some docs *accidentally* give a bit too much morphine to help things along.

[Dookus]

33. Yes

and I'm thankful for those doctors. When some friends and I helped a friend die from AIDS, we were pretty generous with the morphine.

[Auntie Bush]

53. Hey Dookus...maybe you should delete that post . Asscroft might be

looking for an excuse to go after you. If you ever stop posting we will know where to look.

[Dookus]

67. heheh

nah, we didn't break the law. We just made sure he got the maximum allowable dose at the shortest allowable interval.

[maveric]

34. A nice big shot of "Chiva" and I'll go with a smile.

And with dignity.

[Auntie Bush]

48. But they can't give you pain killers...if you don't have pain.

Don't worry! You won't even know it and you won't feel nothing!

[LittleClarkie]

50. I don't think this is a black and white issue

In regard to the case that inspired the poll, the physicians disagree with whether or not she is indeed in that vegetative state.

She's not on life support. She breaths on her own. They're talking about withholding food and water.

What are the husband's motives? Has he been misrepresented?

What if the family is right and she is somewhat responsive?

I resent that this case has been taken up by left and right and church and atheist. Each tries to make it more simple than it is.

I could see the "no recucitate" option they use in nursing homes. I could see not leaving me on a breathing machine if I could no longer breath on my own.

But there's something about letting someone starve to death that just doesn't sit right with me. If the husband doesn't want to deal with this anymore, why does he not get a divorce and let the family take over?

[Dookus]

56. She is on life support

it's ridiculous to think a feeding tube is NOT life support.

The question about whether the family is right and she is responsive has been gone over with a fine-toothed comb and it's been determined that she is not responsive.

He doesn't divorce her because he is adamant about carrying out her wishes, which her own family has said they would ignore. He is doing what he believes is the right thing to do, and I admire him greatly for it.

He has the legal and moral responsibility to make these decisions for her - her parents do not.

[traco]

83. If he divorces her he

has to share the estate with her caregivers

can't have a Catholic wedding with Jodi

can't control whether she gets therapy, and if she does and is ever able to talk again, she may implicate him in her "accident"

[mondo joe]

87. Ever able to walk again? WITHOUT A CEREBRAL CORTEX?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[traco]

101. You might want to brush up on your comprehension skills

I didn't say "walk" I said "talk"

[mondo joe]

106. That's even funnier! Talk without a cerebral cortex!

And I thought "bastard children" was funny!

[traco]

112. Have you personally examined her?

If not, then you don't know what her Cerebral Cortex is like!

[Dookus]

118. No

but doctors who have examined her do know, and they've made a very compelling case that her cerebral cortex is gone.

The idea that we have to personally examine Terri, despite our lack of expertise, in order to have an opinion is silly.

[traco]

124. You can have an opinion all you want

Just don't represent opinion as God given fact! Other doctors have examined her too, and says that she has a chance to recover with proper therapy!

[mondo joe]

126. And some people say the earth is flat.

!

[Dookus]

127. Do you have a citation

from a doctor who's examined her within the last few years who believes she has a chance of recovery?

And what do you mean by recovery? Walking and talking? Or merely being able to swallow?

You do understand what a cerebral cortex is, right? If not, here's a refresher:

[mondo joe]

121. I don't have to.

Physicians already have.

[traco]

129. and they have differing opinions

You just choose to believe the opposite ones than I do

[mondo joe]

131. The preponderance of medical opinion.

You've chosen a few outliers you agree with. The FLAT EARTH ones.

[Dookus]

97. what estate?

People keep alleging that he's in this for money, but that is simply untrue, and furthermore, the people who allege it KNOW it is untrue.

[traco]

102. An estate consists of more than money

There is real estate, a business that he is part owner with Jodi, cars etc...

[Dookus]

120. tell me

how much he stands to gain with Terri's death.

I've seen people espouse that he stands to gain something substantial, but nobody ever tells me how much.

You really think he put himself through nursing school, tended to Terri for 15 years, spent a fortune battling her parents, and now wants money for it?

Tell me, how much money. Where is this money? Who has it, and when will he get it? Be specific.

[traco]

130. As I said

an estate is more than money! It is physical possessions too.

[mondo joe]

133. What in their estate wouldn't have been spent on a decade in court

And 15 years of hospitalization?

Tell me, does it feel virtuous to throw vague unsupported accusations against someone?

[traco]

139. You tell me.

You're the one throwing out accusations that Terri made comments you have no idea if she really made! You are throwing out accusations that her parents lied, when you have to proof!

Does Michael have a car? If so, that is part of the estate. Does he live in a home? Part of the estate! Own shares in a business with his fiance? Part of the estate!

[mondo joe]

143. It's your accusation about the estate - back it up baby!

I can back up every claim - witnesses, found credible by the court, heard Terri's comments.

Her parents are on record saying they'd disregard her wishes.

Now tell us: How much of an estate does he stand to inherit?

[traco]

147. Anything that was purchased between the time they

married, until now! That is the marital estate!

AND DONT CALL ME BABY!

[Dookus]

149. Now explain

how Michael actually benefits when Terri dies. He already has the car and whatever property you're talking about. What changes when she dies?

Absent a life-insurance payout, her death doesn't put one extra dollar in his pocket.

[mondo joe]

154. You see he has to kill her before she can wake up and talk enough to...

...divorce him and take half the marital estate!

GOSH!

[traco]

156. He and jode are owners of an insurance company!

I imagine he has a policy on her!

[mondo joe]

157. Your imagination is not relevant

If you're going to make accusations you ought to be able to back them up.

Otherwise just admit you're making shit up.

[traco]

160. and your thoughts and feelings are relevant? LOL

[Dookus]

162. No

because Mondo is not arguing on thoughts and feelings, like you are. You have made repeated accusations that you are entirely unable to substantiate. Doesn't it get tiring?

[mondo joe]

164. I haven't claimed my feelings as anyone's motive. You have.

You have specificallly suggested that Michael would kill Terri for financial gain.

Yet you have not shown that he stands to gain in any way.

[Dookus]

161. You imagine

but you provide no evidence.

Now if your claim is that the existence of a life insurance policy should preclude any spouse from making medical decisions, then say so. But you will be soundly derided, and rightfully so.

Why shouldn't he gain from her life insurance policy if they had one? I'm sure it was impossible to get one before she was hospitalized, so if he's kept up the payments for all these years, what's wrong with him getting the money?

That's what life insurance policies do - they pay off the surviving spouse when the other one dies.

But the fact is, you don't know shit about whether or how much he stands to gain upon her death, yet you feel compelled to hang onto that factoid like a drowining man to a buoy. Why? You have been challenged at least 20 times here to explain what you know about his financial gain upon her death and can't answer the question. Why still cling to it? It is obvious you don't know anytihng at all about the situation.

[mondo joe]

151. Minus any DEBT incurred. Forgot that, didn't you?

So, what does Michael stand to benefit?

[Dookus]

134. And I'm asking you to tell

me the value of those possessions. What is the value of the estate he will gain when Terri dies?

[traco]

141. I dont happen to have access to his financial records to be

able to tell you the value of his and Terri's estate. Do you?

[Dookus]

144. LOL

you're cracking me up.

YOU made an assertion about him standing to gain something financially from her death. And when asked repeatedly to back it up, you can't. And now you try to put the burden on ME?!

God, you're funny.

[traco]

148. I'm not trying to put the burden on you

I'm saying I don't have specific financial figures as to their net worth. I imagine there are select few who have access to that.

[Dookus]

153. Stop playing games

you assert that he has motive to murder her because he stands to gain financially.

That is a very serious charge. Either back it up, or admit you don't know what you're talking about.

How does ONE EXTRA DOLLAR go into his pocket if she dies tomorrow?

How much money does he stand to gain? It IS important if you claim it's a motive for murder.

You can't back it up because he won't make a fucking dime off her death, and you KNOW it. More right-wing filth crap shit motherfucking lies from Randall Terry and his fanatic goons and you're buying it hook line and sinker.

[mondo joe]

146. Funny, that didn't stop you from making claims about it.

Why is that?

[traco]

158. You are baiting me, trying to goad me into a fight

are you trying to see how many DUers you can get banned tonight?

[mondo joe]

159. I'm trying to goad you into backing up your accusations

You can say he stands to inherit a sum substantial enough to kill over, but you can't back it up.

[Dookus]

165. goading you?

by asking that you substantiate your accusations?

And btw, nobody can get you banned but yourself.

[Dookus]

60. It's now 60 to Zero

Does anybody still wish to argue that there's a likelihood that Terri Schiavo wished to be kept alive interminably at any cost?

[AZCat]

65. Yes.

This is GD - people will argue about freakin' Daylight Savings for 1000's of posts.

I predict Terri Schiavo will be a hot topic even after she is no longer with us.

[Dookus]

74. heheh... true

but I started this whole thread with the goal of determining whether there really was a good likelihood that Terri wanted to be kept alive at all costs. In other threads, people seem to believe that there was a 50/50 chance.

In fact, I believe this goes to a deeper issue - we should change the presumption in cases like this. I think the legal and medical presumption should be that people do NOT wish to be kept alive unless they affirmatively state otherwise.

[traco]

63. That statement would be ok if

she actually had a plug that could be pulled.

She has assisted feeding through a feeding tube. Otherwise, she maintains her own bloodpressure, her brain tells her other organs to function, she breathes, swallows her own saliva, smiles and laughs with her parents.

[mondo joe]

66. Wrong. The feeding tube is life support.

[AZCat]

69. Have you read any of the other threads on this?

Please check them out before bringing up the same points that have been refuted time and time again.

[traco]

93. So it's ok for the side that wants her to die to

bring up the same shit over and over again, but it's not ok to refute that with the side who believes she should be given the chance to live?

[mondo joe]

103. I don't want her to live or die. I want her choices respected.

I want her choices respected same as I want mine respected.

[traco]

107. We don't know what her choice was

We only know what her husband says her choice would be, and he has a definate conflict of interest!

[mondo joe]

115. To the contrary, she chose Michael as her guardian, and she stated

To the contrary, she chose Michael as her guardian, and she stated shhe did not want to be kept alive on life support - as stated in court by multiple witnesses.

Am I to believe the case or your imagination?

[traco]

125. The witnesses have a conflict of interest!

And she chose Michael as her spouse, for better or worse. That doesn't mean "wait til I'm disabled and run off with a new girlfriend!"

[mondo joe]

128. The court found them credible.

You have a conflict of interest.

[traco]

135. What is my conflict of interest?

I don't stand to gain anything either way.

[mondo joe]

136. Your conflict of interest

Is your values against those of Terri and Michael Schiavo.

[traco]

142. Not the same thing...conflict of interest is

will you benefit from (financially) from this decision. Michael will.

Edited to add:
Terri's values are with the Catholic faith, and the leader of her chosen faith says it is immoral to remove nutrition and hydration from any person for any reason!

[mondo joe]

145. The witnesses don't benefit.

And the court found them credible.

Now back up your claims.

[traco]

150. The brother and brother in law of the witnesses will benefit!

[mondo joe]

152. What do they benefit? Be specific.

A dollar?

[traco]

163. I'm done playing your little game! Enjoy your little

baiting game. You are worth me loosing my account!

[mondo joe]

166. If you can't back up your accusations that's a good option, I guess

Not what I'd do, but your choice.

[Dookus]

167. Nice retreat

you finally admit you cannot substantiate your allegations. That's all you've been asked to do. You are in no danger of loosing your account as long as you abide by the rules.

[AZCat]

104. Your statements were false

Regardless if you believe she should be given the chance to live or not, the statements you made were false.

This has been pointed out numerous times in other threads, as well as this one. Please do a little investigation, and we won't continue bringing up the same evidence that rebuts those incorrect statements.

[traco]

109. I have investigated this

My statements have just as much ability to be true as yours do! We dont have the facts, we just have what is available to us over the internet and other news medias!

[AZCat]

114. Thankfully the court has a better understanding of the truth than you do

If you can't differentiate between various sources of information, I feel for you.

[RandomKoolzip]

72. Dookus:

My father used to say to me, when I was little, that if he was ever in a critical state of health and was hooked up to a life support machine, or some such thing, that he would want one of his brood to pull the plug. "Life," he would say, "Is about dignity. I would choose quality over quantity."

Then there came a time when my father was critically ill with late-stage cirrhosis of the liver, and the doctors gave him mere months to live....at which point he had completely reversed his position on this subject. At the end, he was literally begging, with tears in his eyes, to prolong his life as much as we could. "Please, please, keep me alive" were some of the last words I heard him speak.

The message here is that we just don't know, unless we are actually met with such a situation first hand, what we want.

[Dookus]

78. I'm sorry

your father went through such an ordeal. It sounds like he was very afraid to die - that must've been very painful to witness.

But it doesn't exactly apply to this discussion - clearly he was not in a persistent vegetative state, if he was making his wishes known.

[RandomKoolzip]

89. You're right, but I must add a caveat:

The point of my post is that none of us, here, traipsing about the concious world, know the real answer to his question. It's all very easy to make statements like "oh yeah, pull the plug if I'm a vegetable" if you're young and healthy. The nearer you get to death's door, the more difficult a decision it becomes.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the question you've posed is unanswerable. I'd imagine that those people who think they could definitively say "yes" or "no" to "Would you pull the plug?" have never themselves known anyone who had to make the decision. And humans being humans, and Americans being Americans, inevitably this shit becomes politicized (Schiavo's family taking a fundy/right stance, etc), which is the real tragedy.

That being said, however, and knowing what I know about the Schiavo case (which is admittedly purt near nothin'), I'd have to side with the husband. (I've told my wife things I'd never tell my family, and she the same.....I'd hazard a guess that it was the same between them)

PS: Have you made out your will yet? I'm only 29, fer crissakes...who thinks about that shit at my (or her) age?

[Toucano]

77. Exit, stage left. n/t

[NV Whino]

117. Pull the plug

And already taken care of with an advanced health care directive.

I just met with my financial adviser recently. He gave me a list of tips for this and that. One of which was, when you travel, take a copy of your advanced health care directive with you. Good advice.

[Shadowen]

123. I don't know.

As I've never been in that state.

But if I was in a persistent vegetative state, and it was more like a coma than an endless dreaming, I'd tell you (if I could tell you) that I'd want you to let it end.

[Solly Mack]

155. Yank the plug

[mordarlar]

168. I told my daughter to let me go as soon as my girl are ALL OK with it...

Assuming there is no financial issue i want them to have time to come to terms with it. I recently went through this with my grandfather. I was the voice advocating it was time. His body was already showing signs of death. My entire family went though every scenario they could before joining me. It was a matter of a few days from the time he fell to the time he was let go but it was extremely traumatic.

I am currently unmarried and my children are the ones i feel should have say. IMO if i am in a state where i am "dead" already, it matters little to me if i am kept around for the sake of my children's emotional well being. I was 11 when my father died from an accident. It took me over a decade to truly come to terms with the loss.

I have explained to my oldest that i do not fear dying and that this would not upset me should they take me off of support but if they feel they cannot right away this is understandable also.

I imagine i will have to rewrite this plan several times before i reach a point where it will become more pressing. Life changes many things. But for now this works for me.

[traco]

170. So much wisdom in your post

Thank you for sharing.

[autorank]

169. What makesk you think I'm not?

[Moderator]

171. Locking

This is producing more heat than light....