We are not sluts, skanks or hos, we are WOMEN.

[Ellen Forradalom]

I was reminded by several recent discussion threads that it's not a good time to be a woman. In one thread, a woman said that doctors treating her precancerous cervical changes make her feel a bit sleazy because of the risk factors for this (early intercourse, multiple partners) even though none of them applied to her. I've also read threads where women in the news were roundly castigated as skanks and hos.

I feel I have to say something here. We are WOMEN, and we have entirely natural sexual feelings, and if we've been adult for any amount of time we have histories. I am deeply uncomfortable by the quick recourse to "skank" and "ho" (even for those who behave with seemingly little self-respect) because of the powerful moral taint borne by sexually-active women.

I am in my 40s. I have known a few men. I have had my heart broken several times, I have had short relationships, I have had one or two flings. I use condoms. I am divorced, I am married, I am a mother. I have a son whom I prize above all. I bore him in pain without drugs. I AM WOMAN, and I am guilty of nothing but living and loving. While I bear my share of scars on my body and soul, I am not a ho. I am a woman.

Keep this in mind the next time skank or ho flies to your lips.

[Padraig18]

1. *applause*

Well said!

:hi:

[roguevalley]

2. couldn't agree more. its disheartening to hear this kind of thing.

[Goldmund]

3. I agree

I do hate political correctness police, but I HATE, HATE, HATE the idea that a woman who isn't ashamed of her sex drive is a slut, while an equivalent guy is a stud.

[Ellen Forradalom]

4. Robin Morgan said it best

when she said PC means plain courtesy, not political correctness.

Making women feel sleazy for simply being normal is totally unacceptable.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. I LOVE IT! Plain courtesy...

I'm stealing it :evilgrin:

[Richard Steele]

8. Yer gonna SHARE it with me! PLAIN COURTESY ROCKS!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

Yes!

PC...I hate that term. It's just being sensitive, dammit.

[E_Smith]

41. depends what you call normal

if you are a chick that goes to bars and gets nailed you are considered a "hoe" or a "slut", in the parlance of our times. but most guys I know think thats a good thing and wish there were more.

[mattclearing]

6. I agree, and not just about women, either.

I have noticed something similar, particularly in the way that some of our people on the other side of the aisle are referred to here.

For instance, DU rules preclude name-calling, but calling the President of the United States of America, or any other Republican, or even most other non-progressives, and even many progressives who may have made the mistake of supporting some unpopular policy, goes almost totally unremarked upon.

There is a lack of civility here.

There was a thread about whether DU is a liberal Free Republic. I had to agree that it must be, because I've seen stuff here every bit as wacky as the stuff over there. Sometimes I'm even the one posting it.

The anonymity of the Internet is no excuse, and I'm as guilty as anyone.

I think if everyone made an effort at being more respectful in general, and certainly towards women, that would certainly bring credit upon ourselves as a group, and would probably bring greater respect for our points of view as well.

[G_j]

7. good post

seems this needs periodic repeating.

[whistle]

9. You go girl! But I am not familiar with the terms 'skank' and 'hos'...

...as I have never heard them used. Slut I do know and have heard used, but I don't recall ever using the term to describe any woman to her face or behind their back, although I have to confess I may have thought of one or two women who have been in my life as fitting that description. Still, I agree, that DU is not a forum where such terms or other generalized derogatory terms ought to be used.

[Ellen Forradalom]

13. Sorry to despoil your virgin ears

with such vulgar words.

There are some who behave with seemingly little-self respect: Paris Hilton springs to mind. I wish she'd enjoy her sexuality so that it doesn't intrude upon the awareness of 1.5 billion Internet users; but she ought not be castigated for having that sexuality in the first place.

[Cleita]

10. Yes, not much has changed since the days when

I was told that you had to save yourself for your husband, but he, on-the-other-hand, needed to get experience to be a good husband. I'm reading the "Mists of Avalon" again right now. The author makes a very sharp point about how British women, before the coming of the Romans and Christians, weren't really bothered about who the father of their children were and no one condemned nor denigrated them for it.

[Colorado Blue]

32. Yes! There are many books out there, about the old...

matriachies, societies who worshipped The Goddess in her many guises, before male-dominated societies became prevalent and powerful. This was probably about 3,000 BC in West Asia; I don't know about East Asia. But similar patterns of warfare and conquest emerged there as well.

People still worshipped goddesses - still do in China (Kwan Yin) - and Isis was the most powerful diety in the Western world at time of Jesus' birth. But within a couple of centuries the Christians were sharply in the ascent and whereas the Romans had been fairly tolerant of local dieties, the Christians were not.

There is evidence that the older societies, going back some 40,000 years, were agricultural and peaceful. After the male gods/male dominator models came along, warfare became prevalent and women became property. Since males now controlled property, and rights of inheritance passed through the male line, men started controlling women's bodies.

Which they are still attempting to do, dammit.

[Cleita]

34. Anthropologist, Marija Gimbutas whose specialty was

neolithic Europe, was a firm believer in societies being matriarchal before the Bronze Age. Her male colleagues poo poo'ed her notions and dismissed her as being a crank, but her evidence is really compelling.

I actually worked in the same building with her at one time at UCLA and had a nodding acquaintance with her.

[Misunderestimator]

11. I am WOMAN!

Hear me



Good post!

[Ellen Forradalom]

14. LOL! What the world needs today

is a dose of good old-fashioned FEMINISM!

[tigereye]

15. it did need to be said....

thanks.

[whistle]

21. Old fashioned being from the 1960's....

...do bras even burn anymore? Or are you talking about Susan B Anthony types?

[Ellen Forradalom]

24. All of 'em

Suzie B, Bella A, Emma G, Gloria S. Bring 'em all on, with Wonder Woman leading the charge.

[markmalcom]

72. ...Interesting bit of history....According to the people who were at

the supposed "bra-burning" event of the Miss America Beauty pageant, 1968....Bras were never "burned"....They were thrown into a "Freedom Trashing"...No matter how often this is explained, it's always reiterated as "bra burning"....I think they like the alliteration

[whistle]

19. That's either a male lion or a lioness dressed up to look like....

...her King of the Jungle! Sorry, I could not resist that.

[Ellen Forradalom]

20. It's a drag king!

The latest rage in gender-bending entertainment! Check out the Chicago Kings for a different breed of nightlife!

[Misunderestimator]

29. Exactly! I went out with a drag king for a while...

she was part-time that is... and only on stage... a little bit in life too... gave me a whole new perspective.

[whistle]

31. Okay, since no one has taken the bait, here are the meanings...

...and the supposed roots of "skank" and "hos":

<snip>
"SKANK"

The word "skank" is used to describe a person (originally a woman or girl) who is considered dirty or diseased because he or she is promiscuous or slutty. It is implied that a skank spreads sexually transmitted diseases. You may also hear "skank" used as an adjective to describe a thing or a place. As in, "Dude, that bathroom is skanky."
The roots of the word skank are slightly unclear, but it may come from the word "skag", a word that originated in the African-American community in the 1920s to mean a dirty, unclean woman of questionable repute. "Skank" is also a type of reggae/ska dance in which the dancers bend at the waist, and flail their arms in the air. The gyration of the hips during this dance may have lead to views of women who danced in this style as knowledgeable about sexuality and therefore "skanky." Either way, the term is racially charged, though that aspect of the word seems to be largely forgotten or ignored these days.

Sometimes it seems women who have lots of sex are "skanks", "hos", "bitches" and "sluts," while men are virtually immune to "skankiness". Emily White explores the causes and repercussions of this double standard in her book, Fast Girls: Teenage Tribes and the Myth of the Slut.

<more> http://www.gurl.com/findout/label/pages/0,,661960,00.html

<snip>
"HO/HOS"

There are zero putdowns in the English language for sexually promiscuous men, but so many ways to say that a woman is bad by virtue of being "loose" (slut, bitch, whore, just to name a few). And now hip-hop culture has brought us "ho."

The word came into the mainstream through rap music of the '80s and '90s. "She ain't nothing but another ho..." rapped KRS-1 in 1990--sounding very tame, actually, next to groups like NWA, 2 Live Crew and, later, Eminem.

"Ho" comes from the Southern pronunciation of the word "whore." But dropping the "r" sound is also supposed to dull the insult (sort of the way "nigga" takes some of the racial slur out of "nigger"). We're not calling you a whore, the argument goes; that's just what we call women.

Whatever the offense taken, or not taken, there is no shortage of misogyny in the word's illustrious past. In the flashy gangsta rap videos of the '80s and '90s, the ultimate sign of success was a backdrop of near-naked "bitches and ho's" jiggling on yachts and nice cars. Some rap artists really ran with the pimp-fantasy theme, all the way to lyrics about keeping their women in line with a "slap."

And over the years, the word has stretched to fit most things you could say against a woman--or anyone. Sightings include "hoe" (ugly woman), "ho-bitch" (dislikable woman) and "hobeast" (almost likeable, but too much of a wannabe slut). Not to mention "garden tool" (get it? from "hoe") as a general term for a woman.

As some people see it, time and changing music styles have taken the word "ho" down a notch; it's funnier now, and sometimes even friendly.

Some women in hip-hop are not so sure, however. They have chosen to keep the pressure on--ever since Queen Latifah made her first call to action in 1989, rapping: "Every time I hear a brotha call a girl a bitch or a ho/Tryin' to make a sista feel low/You know all of that's gotta go."

Hoes Wit Attitude took it a step further in the 90s, using their own name to make their point with the same sense of irony and humor behind Missy Elliott when she calls herself a "crazy ho."

<more> http://www.gurl.com/findout/label/pages/0,,624955,00.html

[Misunderestimator]

26. Yeah, yeah, yeah.... here then:

:P

[Ellen Forradalom]

27. She means business

whereas "Mr. King of the Jungle's" roar looks like it's for show.

[harlinchi]

78. Since the female lions do most of the hunting, I guess they do...

mean business.

[whistle]

58. Ahaaa, that's better, far more dangerous looking

[forgethell]

40. Maybe I'm mistaken, but

doesn't that lion have a mane? When was the last lioness that you saw with a mane?B-)

[Misunderestimator]

42. Yeah, thanks... someone has already pointed that out...

:eyes: :P

[Ellen Forradalom]

52. Nice pic of lionesspriyanka, BTW

Where is she? In India?

[Misunderestimator]

57. Last I heard she was...

arcane1 would probably know...

[forgethell]

70. Whoa!!!! n/t

[ewagner]

12. Well-spoken!

Nicely said ..... :hi: :toast:

[hfojvt]

16. from Catch 22

"He believed in truth, justice, and the American way, and disapproved of loose women who turned him down."

My favorite line is that a 'slut' is a woman who does it for everyone but you.

I am in my forties as well, and have not been nearly as sexually active as that, curse the luck, or the social milieu, or the pickiness or prudery of the women I have dated, or tried to date. A slut? Hell, that's like raindrops on roses, or wishful thinking for most young men.

[Roland99]

17. I hear you ROAR!

:)

[Triana]

18. THANK YOU...

...I am so SICK of the double-standard applied to sexually active women vs. sexually active men. There is nothing WRONG with women with 'histories' - most of us have them. It's NORMAL part of living and loving.

I'm about your age as well and I will be DAMNED if I will apologize or be made to feel 'dirty' about normal sexual activity and desires OR about my 'history'. What a load of CRAP.

It's time to fling it back into the faces of the mysogenists (male and female) who are imposing it on us normal, healthy, sexually active, alive and living and loving WOMEN.

:yourock:

[Blue_In_AK]

22. Having been a very willing participant...

...in the free-love, "sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll" '60s and '70s thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Samurai_Writer]

28. Same here, girlfriend!

Just look at my sig line. I'm a WOMAN, dammit, a COMPLETE woman, and yes, that means I actually have sex! I cannot believe how prudish the younger generation has become. Those of us who were in our teens and early 20s from about 1965 - 1980 or so, seem much more open-minded. My own kids (early 20s) and their friends seem puritan in comparison.

[Ellen Forradalom]

30. You bet your bippy

When you get me you get the whole package--body, mind and soul.

[_Wayne_]

23. You're in skank denial

[Ellen Forradalom]

25. You're in frank denial

:-)

[_Wayne_]

82. LOL

Admit it, you may disapprove of the terms skank, ho, etc. But behind closed doors, you're kinda slutty

[UdoKier]

33. You are not a skank or a ho.

Nor is Hilary Clinton, nor was Eleanor Roosevelt -

Heck, even most actual streetwalkers deserve more respect than that.

HOWEVER...

Ann Coulter has more than earned the term "skank"

The airheads brazenly flashing their breasts on the "Girls Gone Wild" commercials sure look slutty to me.

And as for ho's, the first one that pops to mind is Jeff Gannon, then Wolf Blitzer - but I'm sure there are some female ones too...

[Ellen Forradalom]

36. I agree there are some borderline cases.

Ann Coulter makes me queasy in any number of ways. To my way of thinking, the Girls Gone Wild gals are participating in their own oppression. The problem is reaching for misogynistic epithets as a first resort. It paints women with a broad brush (no pun intended.)

To me, a ho is someone who sells a part of his or her essence, a part of one's person that ought not be for sale, to the highest bidder. That essence comprises amongst other things love, conscience, and principles. Gannon, Coulter and Blitzer are hoes by that definition.

[UdoKier]

39. BTW, I think there are plenty of male sluts.

I don't know why society doesn't frown on them as much as female sluts - I think people who are wantonly promiscuous in an age of AIDS are pretty gross.

As for a skank - I always thought that was just a kind of nasty, unhygienic person - like Ann Coulter.

[Ellen Forradalom]

47. Define promiscuous.

That's the rub. Is it 10 lovers? 20? 50? Or is it when you've lost count?

I doubt most people could put a number on it, but if forced to, they'd set that number a lot lower for women than for men.

[UdoKier]

50. Well, a different person every weekend for a year would be pretty slutty.

But it's not necessarily bad - so long as you took proper precautions.

And I would set the number identical for men and women.


You're certainly right that there is a societal double standard.

[Ellen Forradalom]

55. Ya think?

Seems like a lot of work to me, being naturally lazy and all, but maybe it doesn't impair the functioning of some people.

You're right, that the problem would be not the sex itself but any lack of responsibility for health and well-being. Anyone that busy should act accordingly--practice safer sex, use condoms, get tested, and talk to partners.

[Eloriel]

62. But why would you hve to resort to basically sexist terms

to put someone down -- of either sex?

Slut is sexist to the core, no matter who you're applying it to. WHY would you want to choose a word that helps denigrate ALL women, helps limit the choices (and the sexuality) of ALL women?

I hate these Repug women every bit as much as anyone else here at DU. But I always cringe, and it always pierces me in the heart, to see them referred to in sexist ways. It's also one of my biggest heartaches -- and I do mean heartache -- where DU is concerned, that sexist language is allowed to be used against women we don't like. There's no excuse for that, except that some DUers simply insist on hanging onto their own personal levels of sexism. That's the only excuse. Don't want to give up their male privilege (and for females who engage in it, their own internalized oppression and desire to side with the dominant culture).

Shame on those of you who try to defend these practices. There IS no defense for it. None. And to the extent that you insist on using sexist terminology to apply to ANYone, you make yourself my enemy and the enemy of any and every woman on the planet, including the ones you may profess to love and care about. You got daughters? You're actively harming her future.

[UdoKier]

64. Whaile what you're saying sounds good on paper...

I don't see it changing anytime soon. People make fun of each other in myriad ways, sometimes cruelly, and sometimes with good humor - and they always will. You may not approve of the terminology - and "slut" is not my favorite word in the world either, but the fact is, the vast majority of people would think you're overanalyzing the meaning of every word, reading oppression and misogyny into contexts where it may not exist. How do you expect to change that when most WOMEN use those terms as gleefully as men?

And as is my response to every case of picayune PC taken to the Nth degree, why devote so much thought and energy to the various permutations of these words, when kids are still starving, wives are still being beaten, young runaway girls exploited, etc - AND you have a society where young girls are absolutely inundated with glamour and gossip magazines and the vapid role models they present, where few girls are encouraged to go into the sciences (what a waste!)

But you want to make enemies of the huge segment of the population that uses those terms NOT in the context you describe?


I'll never understand the way some liberals seem to be endlessly enamored of symbolism, symbolic victories and symbolic fixes at the expense of real-life progress that actually produces meaningful improvements in the lives of MOST people.

Like, we're all glad that the condescending and patronizing term "negro" is dead, has changing the "acceptable" term from "colored" to "black" to "people of color" to " African-American", made one little bit of demonstrable improvement to the life of an American of African descent? Has the endless haggling over which word is appropriate done anybody any good?


Anyway, you're entitled to your opinion. It makes sense in a very remote, ivory-tower, cerebral and irrelevant way. Good luck building a movement around THAT in Bush's 10-second sound-bite, ultra-right-wing America...

[wickerwoman]

74. No progress ever exists in the absence of a struggle.

I don't see homophobia, election fraud, a corrupt media, a gutted educational system or the U.S. occupation of Iraq changing any time soon either. Does that mean I should just give up on all of them and only say something about small problems that I expect can be solved easily in the next five minutes?

The fact that many people are under-educated on this issue is not a reason to give up. It's a reason to fight harder.

The fact that there are many other problems is not a reason to give up. I have lots of energy. I can fight poverty and abuse and still have a little left over to call people on the assumptions behind the language they use.

Yes, some people will resent the fact that you called them on their shit but many others will open their eyes. And Eloriel is talking about the use in a specific context (as an expression of hate towards women of a different political persuasion). Are we not supposed to speak up against this context because not very bright people who use it in different contexts may become "our enemies"? And do we really want such people as our friends?

As for "symbolic victories" attention to language is anything but. Our choice of language shapes our views of reality and the views of those around us. I can still remember the first time I heard words like "cunt", "lawn jockey", "fudge packer". I had absolutely no idea what they meant. As NSMA has said before so elegantly, I lived in a world without cunts, lawn jockeys and fudge packers. And I'd give a lot to go back to that world. Every time you hear or use a word it reinforces a connective pathway in your brain. For a child the word woman has no connection to a word like "bitch" "skank" or "ho". It may have happier association like "mother" "sister" "hugs", whatever. But after about the three millionth repetition that connective pathway is much stronger bitch=woman. Those repetitions are responsible for the nasty random shit that flashes in our brains and which not all of us have the emotional maturity to fight back. And those associations breed the contempt for women that nurtures the problems you described- abuse, objectification and diminished expectations.

So in fighting the words used to express and spread contempt for women, we are fighting the problems you described. Yes, some people will resist and resent education on this issue but I seriously doubt it is the "huge segment of the population" you describe. I've had pretty good luck so far. Why stand in the way of that?

[UdoKier]

75. I'm not gonna stand in your way.

Like I said, good luck. It's like mopping up Lake Michigan with a dishrag, IMO, but you're entitled to focus your energies where you like.

"cunt", "lawn jockey", "fudge packer" - I never hear those words in real life. Maybe I'm too sheltered - I don't watch the Man Show or Howard Stern. Seems like something an obnoxious teenage boy might say just to shock people around him. But those are especially offensive words, esp. the "c" word, because it dehumanizes women many degrees worse than what the other three in the OP do. It reduces her to nothing more than an orifice - a piece of genitalia. I HATE that word when applied to another person. (Although the brits use it on other men, and for some reason it's less offensive then...)

I do agree that our society has become more coarse, and profanity has seeped into everyday speech in an unprecedented way. And these words being used in mixed company is another facet of that.

You say you've had good luck. I suspect it's only in getting people to stop using those words around you. And I suppose that's fine, too. At least it forces them to think before they say something like that....

As for me, I save my outrage for the real atrocities going on. What Bush is trying to do to Social Security is abusing women. Millions of women, and men, who will have part of their livelihood stolen because he looted it and gave it to their friends. He's abusing children, because they'll be left enslaved to the massive debt he created to fill his Wall St. buddies' pockets. Some kinds of abuse are not felt as immediately or viscerally as a derogatory word, but their impact is felt much longer. So while we are living in an absolute world of shit, and our country is being run by the absolute worst kind of villains, I only have outrage left for the most egregious kind of slurs - and in the right context - the three words in the OP would be included. But if I heard Chris Rock use them in a comedy routine, it wouldn't necessarily make me hate him.

[secular_warrior]

81. because we will always rely on what can inflict pain on the other

Men have their own bag of nasty comments to rip apart women they don't like, usually by attacking how much sex she has: slut, whore, etc.

Women have their own bag of nasty comments to rip apart men they don't like, usually by attacking how little sex he has, or how little money/job prospects he has: lives with mommy, wimp, loser, etc.

And if you've ever noticed, an insult by a male from the male bag will usually be countered by a comment by a female from the female bag (i.e. "dumb slut" will usually be followed by "little dicked loser", etc).


All of this has to do with the inherent psychological difference between the genders. Most men - of any culture- tend to think a certain way about women, and most women - of any culture - tend to think a certain way about men.

[Pepperbelly]

35. skank is a stated of mind and ...

if the shoe fits, I will throw it at her.

Or him.

Just call me Pepperbelly-Skank.

[Ellen Forradalom]

37. Incoming shoe!

:silly:

[Pepperbelly]

38. LOL

I dodging as fast as I can.

:D

[SarahB]

43. Great post!

I too, am a woman, a mother, and a sexual being. I'm ok with all facets of myself. If someone wants to judge me for whatever, screw 'em.

[McKenzie]

44. I would never use any of those terms. Not ever.

Men, and I am one albeit a poor specimen, are shit scared of empowered women. Sexuality is a deep-rooted aspect of our character which conjures up some scary demons that many men are uncomfortable with. Their response is to supress those demons by relegating women to non-persons via derogatory terms.

It's particularly interesting that many men resort to femdom services. My belief is that they need to keep their real desires secret; admitting that women in power turn them on makes them feel damned uncomfortable, hence the high number of men who get caught, in flagrante in such situations.

Whilst this might seem fanciful it is absolutely correct. Denigrating women for doing what men do is denial writ large.

We are sad creatures really, us males.

[Lorien]

45. Ever seen the film "Dangerous Beauty"?

(aka "The Honest Courtesan" in Britain). It's based on the true story of the most famous courtesan and poetess of 17th century Venice, Veronica Franco, who was tried for witchcraft by the Spanish Inquisition. Her commentary on love and sex reminds me of what you've written here. We women have always been demonized for sexual appetites and experiences while men are celebrated for the same. Is "Gannon" called a skank and a ho as often as a woman would be in the same position? No; those criticizing Gannon for his sexual misconduct are attacked as homophobic, the fact that it's illegal prostitution doesn't matter when the prostitute is a man!

Sadly, it has never been a good time to be a woman. We made strides forward in the 70s, but we're losing ground again. Fight back, and never let anyone shame you for who you are!

[King Coal]

46. How does "hen" grab you?

Just kidding.

:hi:

[Ellen Forradalom]

48. Are you calling me chicken?

Come over here and say that to my beak, er, face.

[Scout]

54. that's ok

Roosters crow, but hens PRODUCE!

[Darth_Kitten]

49. Bravo!

No argument from me! :)

[porphyrian]

51. Some women are sluts.

I've known some.

[bearfan454]

61. Some men are too.

I used to be a whore back in the day.

[porphyrian]

66. Ah, the days when 2 AM had special meaning... - n/t

[UdoKier]

65. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

People should have a right to be a slut, or a prude, or any permutation in between.


Just be careful and wear a raincoat, please!

[porphyrian]

67. Absolutely not.

I may have never been laid in the first place without them. God bless the sluts!

[fleabert]

53. hell yeah.

:yourock:

[ohio_liberal]

56. You forgot

"bitches".

[mzmolly]

59. Thank you.

:hi:

[Catherine Vincent]

60. This is a great thread.

Thank you.

[kalibex]

63. Amen, Sister! n/t

...

[Greylyn58]

68. Amen

and well said. We women are living in scary times...uncertain if our rights will be taken from us.

I only hope things don't become worse.

:eyes:

[foreigncorrespondent]

69. BRAVA!!!!!

Very well said!!!!

[ohio_liberal]

71. And "shorties"

I hate that one too. :(

[baba]

76. Where does "shorties" come from?

I have heard it before, but I didn't see why it was offensive. Am I missing something?
:shrug:

[Runcible Spoon]

80. not entirely sure but it also applies to children...

so the double inference of being physically smaller and analogous to a child seems to have a connotation of diminutive-ness....

[markmalcom]

73. Thank you!...and you might add another ugly, term

to the list...the literally dehumanizing "bitch".

[ArkDem]

77. I am Helen Ready.

[secular_warrior]

79. those words are never going to go away

but only take on another form.

This is because men and women are inherently different: sexually promiscuous women ("sluts") are put in a bad mental category by men, just as women put unambitious men ("lazy", "losers", "wimps") in a bad category.

Until we can accept the inherent differences between men and women and try to find common ground, this battle will go back and forth, as it always has.

The dating scene today is one of mutual exploitation, where both sides are hurling whatever they can at the other. This produces an environment of pro-male men and very pro-female women.

What feminists need to realize is that the pro-female crowd is less about liberalism than it is about libertarianism - dominate and conquer, just as bad as the pro-male men.

Also, I worry about girls today doing porno, thinking everyone accepts it - they don't realize that the same guys who are their friends now are the same guys who will be throwing stones at them in a decade or so.

Men don't change. Women don't change. We are largely hardcoded to feel the way we do about the opposite sex. All of our behaviors are designed to exploit -not uplift- the other sex.

The way to deal with this is an honest and open fashion, so that men and women can discover each other's "soft spots", so we know what to say to each other. We need a type of political correctness specifically to handle male/female relationships.

[Ellen Forradalom]

83. That's very pessimistic

"Men don't change. Women don't change. We are largely hardcoded to feel the way we do about the opposite sex. All of our behaviors are designed to exploit -not uplift- the other sex."

Over the past ten years or so, I've seen a big swing away from environmental factors to genetic and biological ones in explaining human behavior. It is now so fashionable to ascribe differences to genetics that it serves as a giant cop-out: "We're wired that way, there's nothing we can do about it." My response is that while there are indeed differences, it should not be our first resort in explaining behavior, as such explanations are often fitted neatly into existing social notions.

Genes always express themselves in the environment, and we are exposed to culture from birth, or even before birth: we can hear sounds from the outside world. Further, we are always learning something new about human capabilities.

I cannot comment on "the dating scene," since I'm married; but all the men I've ever loved have been beautiful and flawed individuals, just as I am.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

84. For sure

I can comment on the dating scene, and all the men I've ever loved have been beautiful and flawed individuals, and no matter what the soreheads on this thread are saying, not one of them has ever been rich or cutthroat ambitious or movie-star handsome.

I hear men use "loser" to describe economically unsuccessful men much more than I hear women use it in that sense. When I've heard women use the word "loser," it tends to describe a man who doesn't have his act together in any sense, not just economic.

When I hear the word "loser," the image that comes to mind is a guy who never bathes, has no interests outside of work and sports, blames the rest of the world for the consequences of his own bad decisions, and is chronically angry as a result. I've known fairly wealthy men who were "losers."