Debating a fundamentalist Republican today...

[BreweryYardRat]

I intend to hammer her on how Bush ignored warnings leading up to 9/11, the state of the economy, that Iraq has gone to hell, tax cuts and corruption for the uber-rich, the missing $9 billion in Iraq, our loss of foreign alliances, Gannongate, and Bush's destruction of the environment. What am I missing (I'm sure there's something), given that I'm half-asleep right now?

I'll try to avoid the religion/gay marriage angle, because on this issue she is out there even for a fundamentalist. If I have to discuss it, doesn't the Bible only have a few passages about gay people, rather than the whole "half of the entire work is homophobia" thing that is usually perceived?

With some sleep, I think I can crush the Repug fairly nicely. Any hints/tips?

P.S. And I'll be wearing an anti-Bush shirt, just to provide a little bit of psychological warfare.

[knight_of_the_star]

1. Some pointers for that and questions

Keep things brief and to the point, make your points that you intend to hammer on phrased in such a way that they hit home to the target in question. If you can make them think about what you said instead of responding to you, then you have control of the flow of the debate.

Also, will there be people there? If you are debating in front of an audience, then you want to focus on isolating your target and convincing most of those watching that you know what you are talking about.

Will the target be amenable to changing their perspective? If not, and if you aren't doing this for an audience to score points per se, then why are you wasting your time?

[BreweryYardRat]

7. There will be people, yes...

Given that it's going to be over coffee at Starbucks. ;-)

As to whether she's amenable-maybe. I always did like a challenge.

Thanks for all the advice already, guys-I like the wolverine line.

[Erika]

2. Why would you wear an anti Bush Shirt?

I would suggest you ask about the Iraqi war according to www.icasualties.org and how they can justify these deaths when Iraq was never a danger to us.

[jdots]

3. I have power tools if you need them

debating a rethug must be like paper training wolverine.

[Name removed]

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[BreweryYardRat]

9. Bible

On the Biblical note, I've tried arguing with her on an earlier occasion that the Biblical prejudice against gays and other things is just the beliefs of ancient Jews/Christians, editorialized into the text.

Her eyes got very big...and then she promptly dismissed the idea.

[Erika]

6. Please show links to prove your tax cuts info

Forget it you can't.

[Name removed]

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[Dark]

18. Ugh, why can't you people stop bashing Clinton? HES NOT PRESIDENT ANYMORE!

Can't you people get it through your heads that Clinton was not president during 9/11.

Let me ask you this. You're a repube, so I expect a simple straighforward answer.

If you got a job where he managed security against hackers of a computer system for a company, an ideal, private business.

You replaced a guy who had done pretty well with the system before retiring. He had consolidated it so that there was plenty of new hard drive space.

You are on the job for a whole six months. You've been there a while, even though you call in sick almost 40% of the time, and things are going okay.

BOOM! The entire system crashes because it was hacked. You had had several emails from low level employees warning about security holes, but done nothing about it.

Would you consider it the fault of the retiree, or would it be your fault?

Yea, I know, personal responsibility. . .

As for your others, the economy SHOULD be doing better according to our illustrious leader. After all, he practically wiped out our surplus giving the rich their tax cuts.

Where is the economic rebound they were supposed to bring? Where the FUCK is it? I'm asking you, where is this magical rebound? Why haven't we hit Clintoian levels of prosperity?

Oh, right, you don't want to mention the GOOD things Clinton did.

As for Iraq, a few things:

1.) Voter turnout was not universally at 60%. It was high in some areas, but low in central Iraq. This means a third of Iraqis are not represented. And in a country already headed towards civil war, this will only exacerbate things.

2.) The military isn't vastly improved. We've had some of the worst months yet leading up to the election. The Iraqis are not ready to take over. They aren't even close.

3.) Could you also explain to me how electing a theocratic party into Iraq's government, followed by a separatist party, is good for the country? Aren't ALL terrorist attacks perpetrated in the world by either a) religious fanatics (Al Qaeda) or b) separatists (Basque Party in Spain)?

How will Iraq NOT become a hot bed of terrorist activity

[Justitia]

8. Ask her this: What EXACTLY did Christ say about gays????

I mean, being a CHRISTian and all, that should be of utmost importance right???

ANSWER: NOT ONE WORD, NOTHING.

Think HE even knew they existed? Maybe HE just forgot? Or overlooked it?

But he sure said tons 'o stuff about taking care of the sick, poor, children and "least among us"....

[Erika]

15. The GOP will never say a word about the needy

They abhor them as lazy idiots, some of them criminal. They do not view them as Christ did through his eyes.

[BreweryYardRat]

11. *snaps fingers*

Almost forgot Negroponte and the whole "death squads/rape, torture, and brutal murder of nuns and religious women in Honduras" part of his past! Can I get some links to information on that?

[Extend a Hand]

13. My favorite-- on the subject of liberals

From the KJV.

Isa 35:2 The vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said bountiful.

Isa 32:6 For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.

Isa 32: 7 The instruments also of the churl evil: he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poor with lying words, even when the needy speaketh right.

Isa 32:8 But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand.

:)

[ochazuke]

14. Good Luck

If you met someone who still believed that Santy Clause was real at the age of forty, do you think you would be able to convince him otherwise?

Fundamentalists' beliefs are just as absurd. The only difference is that they are sanctioned by a huge cohort.

[Swamp Rat]

16. Print this out and then give it to her if she brings up Jesus or religion.

Tell her if she loves Jesus and is a true christian, she'll put this bumpersticker on her car and repent for voting for the anti-christ.

[arcane1]

20. hell yes!

[Northern Perspective]

17. For starters, give her THIS article

The scandal sheet
(From Salon.com)

Print it out, send it to Harry Reid, or just read it and weep. Here are 34 scandals from the first four years of George W. Bush's presidency -- every one of them worse than Whitewater.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Peter Dizikes

Jan. 18, 2005 | Once upon a time -- about five years ago -- conservative pundits often talked about "scandal fatigue." Remember scandal fatigue? It was an affliction supposedly either turning voters against Democrats or, alternatively, a weariness in the body politic preventing Republicans from pursuing even more grievances against Bill Clinton. By any objective measure, however, after four years of George W. Bush's presidency, the entire nation should be suffering from utter scandal exhaustion.

Consider the raw materials of scandal that this administration has produced: False claims about Iraq's supposed weapons of mass destruction. Torture in Abu Ghraib. The virtually treasonous exposure of a CIA agent by White House officials. And those are just the best-known examples...

(cont'd)

[happyslug]

19. As to gay marriage point out the Ten Commandments

Homosexuality is NOT mentioned in the ten Commandments. Now under Catholic Doctrine (A term I would avoid if I were you with a Fundamentalist, Catholics are not Christian in the eyes of many Fundies) the only truly "Mortal" Sins are violation of the Ten Commandments, other "Sins" are NOT "Mortal" or "Severe" (In the old Baltimore Catechism the term "Mortal Sin" was used but in the present Catechism the term "Severe Sin" is used, both are restricted to violation of the ten Commandments).

In Catholic Doctrine all other sins are minor sins. A better term than "sin" would be "error" for to many people hear "sin" and get defensive. You have to explain to them that "to sin" is "to error" and everyone errors (and thus everyone sins). This is basic Catholic Doctrine and most Christians follow this difference between Severe and Non-severe sin to some extent.

One way to bring this up is to ask the person what is the difference between a violation of the Ten Commandments and a sin (such as Homosexuality) that is NOT a violation of the Ten Commandments? Most fundies either do not accept the difference (than thus why did God provide the ten Commandments?) or they claim some other part of the Bible describing a Sin as making that Sin the same as violating the Ten Commandments (at which point you go back to why is the Ten Commandments the Ten Commandments if God made other Commandments?).

The Catholic Church has resolved the above "problem" by simply saying the only sins you can be damned to hell for are Violations of the Ten Commandments, all other sins must be weighed with your good deeds (a Topic to stay away from with Fundies, they do not believe Good Deeds gets you into Heaven, just Faith even through Jesus himself says faith with out deeds is not enough).

With Fundies stay with the Ten Commandments, ask them why did not God put Homosexuality in the Ten Commandments if God wanted Homosexuality punished like the rest of the Ten Commandments? Stay with the Ten Commandments and what is NOT in them. It blows the Fundies mind that the Ten Commandments does NOT address any sex crime except Adultery (Unless the act violates some other sin in the Ten Commandments for Example when St Paul condemned people who committed Homosexual acts he was referring to people who went to a pagan temple and paid for such acts with a slave of that temple, the crime was not the Act but that the person one had sex with was being forced to have the sex with you. You thus violated his or her right to her own body, a right which under Roman and Greek laws did not exist for slaves but none the less was viewed by St Paul as violating the Commandment to honor God, to honor your Parents, to honor one's neighbor etc. It further violated Jesus commandment Not to do on to other that one does not want done to you. Forced sex violates all of these and that is what St Paul was condemning NOT homosexuality itself).

Thus point out and use the Ten Commandments and Jesus statement to love your fellow God and your Fellow man as you love yourself.




More on the Ten Commandments:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04153a.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10co.htm

[Must_B_Free]

21. Sodom and Gomorrah is about inhospitality, not homosexuality

a fundie ought to already know this...

[joefree1]

22. Don't, and take the time you save to have fun and support the cause

Arguing with a fundies is a waste of your time. Instead sigh, look wise, and show the patience you would have a with a misguided child.

Then go to Costco, get your favorite beverages, snacks, and your liberal friends over for a party while you watch Outfoxed, F911, or The Day After Tomorrow.

"A cult is religion without political power."
Tom Wolfe

[newyawker99]

23. Hi seawolf!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[BreweryYardRat]

24. Postponement.

Debate postponed till tomorrow. Any more help would be nice. The more information I have, the better my results should be.