I would like some insight from the Atheists of DU:

[youthere]

I would appreciate any insight you have to offer.
First some background and I hope I can explain myself clearly:
I am a liberal Christian who homeschools. I have been doing a comparitive religion study with my children. We study other faith beliefs and writings. The goal or purpose (if you will) is for my children to develop a respect and understanding of other belief systems. Then it occurred to me that I have never really covered Atheism. Its been mentioned but we've never spent anytime discussing Atheism or Agnosticism. I can't help feeling that this sends an indirect message to my kids that Atheism is not a valid choice. Do you find this invalidation to be the case much of the time? What other insights would you offer? Thank you so much.

[gWbush is Mabus]

1. i don't think you can lump in all atheists together

as an atheist, i would recommend studying:

Darwin's theories of evolution, and
Freud and other Psychology in terms of the human mind's weaknesses/vulnerabilities that give rise to religious beliefs (i.e. the fear of death and need to be immortal, as well as the need of belonging to a group and the need to feel superior to others).

[agitpropagent9]

11. i agree with the above

and would also consider some literary study of camus and sartre, underscoring the existentialist belief of humans as captains of their own destiny.

i admire the fact that you're exposing them to comparative religions, in the process giving them the critical thinking tools so fundamental to a good education.

good luck.

[youthere]

29. Thank you both for the

references. I sincerely appreciate it. I guess I have tended to "lump" Atheists into the same general "category". I'm excited that I can learn from this right along with my kids.

[Arkana]

97. Right--Freud, Darwin, and probably a bit of Nietzsche

The "slave morality" vs. "master morality" lecture was the only one that ever kept my attention for an entire lecture.

[aePrime]

106. I would also add David Hume to that list

He did a lot of critiquing of religion, such as The Problem of Miracles and The Design Argument.

[physioex]

2. I am an Agnostic....

And I feel comfortable with not having all the answers. But like you Atheists puzzle me because they believe in an absolute for which they have no evidence.

On Edit: I am a liberal and respect everyones beliefs. Just a friendly discussion.

[Goldmund]

4. What absolute do atheists believe in?

[physioex]

8. From what I understand...

It is a belief in that there is NO god. This is an absolute in my opinion.

[Goldmund]

22. That's as much a belief as requesting a proof of a negative...

...is a valid debate tactic.

You believe in absolutes, too. For example, do you believe you're a brain in a vat?

[Stuckinthebush]

79. Agnostic here, too...

I must say that the atheist's statement that there is no god or gods is an absolute, but an absolute in the sense that one would say that there are no invisible green fairies buzzing around our heads. I absolutely believe that there are no invisible green fairies because there is absolutely no evidence for them. An atheist would say that they absolutely do not believe in a god or gods because there is no evidence for it/them. Same as the green fairies.

[quisp]

50. My dictionary*

defines atheist as "one who denies the existence of God."

in other words, "There is no God."

and defines agnostic as "Someone who believes there can be no proof of the existence of God but does not deny the possibility that God exists."

in other words, "I'll believe in God IF you can prove it."




*The American Heritage Dictionary - 2nd College Edition

[porphyrian]

66. I would amend the agnostic definition...

...by saying that there "can be no proof at this time of the existence of God..." As we discover more about our universe, the possibility exists that we may then be able to prove the existence or non-existence of a God (or gods, for that matter).

[Snotcicles]

88. delete

[trotsky]

7. What "absolute" do atheists supposedly believe in?

I think you are confusing the statements:

1) I do not believe in any gods.
2) I believe that gods do not exist.

[physioex]

10. Where is your proof.........

You have an absolute belief.

[trotsky]

14. Proof of what? n/t

[physioex]

17. Proof that god doesn't exist.......

I have yet to see any evidence.

[arcane1]

23. atheism makes no such claim

theist- one who believes in a god

atheist- the opposite of theist

you call yourself agnostic, which means you do not have a belief in a god

thus, you too are an atheist

[Squeech]

84. Disagree

I too identify as an agnostic, by which I mean, I don't think there is enough evidence to decide the question either way.

There are some things that lead me to think there cannot be a god: for example, the sheer loathsomeness of so many of the people who presume to speak in His name! I feel very strongly that any god Whose attributes included benevolence would have to figure out some way of assuring us that these asshats don't speak for him.

On the other hand, consciousness is pretty amazing, and it's easier to believe that there is some aspect of divinity involved than to attribute everything about life to natural selection. I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just a philosophical challenge.

Since you seem to be arguing *for* theism, you're not gonna like this one: I think the best evidence for the God of the Bible is that He was able to bring His conquistadores to the Western hemisphere at *exactly* the right time to exploit a succession crisis and conquer a great empire, not once, but twice (Mexico and Peru). That smacks of divine intervention. Of course it also suggests the kind of God that would approve of a Jimmy Swaggart or a Fred Phelps.

[arcane1]

85. I'm arguing *FOR* theism?

Hardly...

ok, here is a simple yes/no question for you: Do you believe in/worship/acknowledge the existence of a deity? Not the possibility, the actual existence...

if you answered no, you are an atheist

as am I

[Squeech]

90. Sorry

I misconstrued the thrust of your argument.

But I still disagree. I don't *worship,* but the reason is not that I don't believe but that I have trouble understanding how any entity with the attributes usually ascribed to a deity could possibly give a shit whether I prayed.

But I think there are phenomena on earth that make me think there might actually be a creator pulling the strings. Sometimes. Like I said, the evidence is inconclusive. I hide behind Godel's skirts here and insist that not all questions are answerable. Especially this one.

I think there's some validity to the joke that says the worst thing about atheism is, there's nobody to talk to during orgasm :D

[arcane1]

93. tis ok

but it sounds to me like you are an atheist :)

[trotsky]

24. Prove that unicorns don't exist.

Or leprechauns.
Or the tooth fairy.
Or flying reindeer.

It's not the burden of proof of the atheist to prove a god doesn't exist. We simply believe that the theist has not made his case that one does.

[physioex]

38. I gotta agree with you there...

The thiests haven't made their case to me and neither have the atheists so you see I am stuck in the middle.

[Goldmund]

41. But ATHEISTS DON'T HAVE A CASE TO MAKE!

Dig?

[trotsky]

46. But you see, that's what we're trying to explain to you.

Atheists don't have to "make a case." No more so than do people who don't believe in dragons, wood sprites, or little green men on Mars. The default position is non-belief; the believers have to present evidence for their claims.

[physioex]

48. It would be nice if you guys jumped in and did some work....

To prove your case.

[Goldmund]

52. LOL

That's good.

[datasuspect]

37. Proof that santa claus doesn't exist

i have yet to see any evidence.

[physioex]

51. I never got any Christmas presents....

And neither did any of the kids I hung around..... :P

[China_cat]

58. Please give me proof

that I don't have an IOU signed by you for 6.5 million dollars, due for payment tomorrow.

(And no, you may not ask that I show proof that I do have it unless you are willing to trot out proof for the positive of your claim)

[arcane1]

19. you are mis-defining "atheism"

it is, simply, a lack of belief in gods. Nothing more.

[physioex]

26. I can believe the earth is flat if I want....

But things have been proved otherwise. I can believe that doesn't exist, but that doesnt mean he isn't there...

[arcane1]

31. I'm failing to see your point

:shrug:

[Lautremont]

30. No, it is something more.

It's a rejection of the belief that a god exists. This isn't much more, I'll grant, but a more active position than your definition implies.

[arcane1]

34. it is the literal opposite of "theist"

[omulcol]

108. evidence or not ?

quote: But like you Atheists puzzle me because they believe in an absolute for which they have no evidence.unquote:


Atheists are so because there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

If religion were based on evidence .... there would be no religion.
Religion is based on belief ... based on an assumption.

In a cynically humourous way I'd say evidence would be based on God supplying us with his e-mail address and pay-pal account number to receive all those donations humans donate to him
.
My rejection of God is not based on false analyses, it's based on the indisputable fact that no evidence of Gods existence has ever been placed on this planet by HIM ... to prove it.
Either there IS evidence to support the theory of God - or there is NOT ... and " NOT ", at the moment is way in front .

[Goldmund]

3. Well,

"atheism" isn't a religion, or a set of specific beliefs. Me thinks that teaching comparative religion in itself implies that there may not be a single correct religious belief, and therefore opens the door to atheism.

I would also maybe have them read some atheist writers speaking on why they rejected religion.

[youthere]

That's very good advice...

thank you.

[GodlessBiker]

5. Just let them know that, just as not everyone believes...

that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not everyone believes that God exists. There is a difference of opinion even as to that.

[Book Lover]

6. Have you been to our Group?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=263

[youthere]

40. No I haven't..

but if you don't mind, I'll check it out. It might be a useful to introduce my older kids to it. Thank you!

[Book Lover]

47. Don't mind at all!

I am sure you will find something helpful there. I see you also homeschool; do you know we have a group for HSers also? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=251

[BOSSHOG]

9. I'm not an atheist

but I do appreciate your efforts to educate your children to understand others. What a refreshing idea. I was raised Catholic but I am having a tough time with my Church of late. Too much conservative political preaching at the expense of building personal relationships with God. Good Luck.

[kaitykaity]

12. On agnosticism, check this out.

Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism
by Susan Jacoby
http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/product2001.html

At a time when the separation of church and state is under attack as never before, Freethinkers celebrates the noble and essential secularist heritage that gave Americans the first government in the world founded not on the authority of religion but on the bedrock of human reason.

In impassioned, elegant prose, Susan Jacoby offers a powerful defense of more than two hundred years of secularist activism, beginning with the fierce debate over the omission of God from the Constitution. Moving from nineteenth-century abolitionism and suffragism through the twentieth-century’s civil liberties, civil rights, and feminist movements, Freethinkers illuminates the neglected accomplishments of secularists who, allied with tolerant and liberal religious believers, have stood at the forefront of the battle for social reforms opposed by reactionaries in the past and today.

Rich with such iconic figures as Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, James Madison, Abraham Lincoln, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and Clarence Darrow—as well as once-famous secularists such as Robert Green Ingersoll, “the Great Agnostic”—Freethinkers restores to history generations of dedicated humanist champions. It is they, Jacoby shows, who have led the struggle to uphold the unique combination of secular government and religious liberty that is and always has been the glory of the American system.

[progressoid]

94. "Freethinkers" is a fine book

I think it just came out in softcover. Might be a little over the top for children, but great for the parents.

[BlueEyedSon]

13. Maybe "secular humanism" or "freethinking" is what you should research

It's hard to discuss "the absence of something."

[KittyWampus]

81. Secular Humanism Seem The Correct Terminology, IMO or Naturalism

[Jokinomx]

15. I really don't like to categorize myself...but..

I have to say if your teaching about religion and how our countries Founding Fathers felt about it..... check out this site.

I have to say that I am a deist when I compare how I feel to those of our Founding Fathers.

http://www.deism.org/frames.htm

[sendero]

16. I'm not ..

... exactly an atheist - but there is one thing I'm sure of.

No god would send his message through a book written by a zillion people edited and translated hundreds of times to be explained by people who all too often have an exploitation angle to their explanation.

If god wanted to tell us something, he/she would tell us. It would be simple, why would it be any other way?

[comradebillyboy]

18. as an athiest

i look to natural causes for everything i see in the natural world. i want real physical evidence for my beliefs about reality. i reject supernatural explanations. i have seen no evidence that would convince me of the reality of any supernatural being.

for more indepth discussion of athiesm try http://www.infidels.org
for the internet infidels discussion board.

[skids]

20. Wish I had a link....

There was a thread a bit back entitled something like "My best friend is an Atheist" where I had a very stimulating and educational (for me, at least) talk with several flavors of atheists.

Anyone still have a link into that thread?

[youthere]

45. Yes please!

I would greatly appreciate a link!

[Palacsinta]

21. Some atheists believe..............

that the notions of spirituality, religion and the "need" to believe in or create a god are hardwired into man as a survial mechanism; one result of the evolution of higher reasoning.

[BlueEyedSon]

35. There is a WHOLE BOOK on this idea

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385500580/qid=1109193948/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/103-6724619-2530253?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[Tansy_Gold]

71. Hamer seems to be into faith-based genetic research

He's not a guy I'd trust on matters of science, research, genetics, or much of anything else.

From a review of The God Gene at Scientific American:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&articleID=000AD4E7-6290-1150-902F83414B7F4945&pageNumber=1&catID=2

/snip/

Is the God gene real? The only evidence we have to go on at the moment is what Hamer presents in his book. He and his colleagues are still preparing to submit their results to a scientific journal. It would be nice to know whether these results can withstand the rigors of peer review. It would be nicer still to know whether any other scientists can replicate them. The field of behavioral genetics is littered with failed links between particular genes and personality traits. These alleged associations at first seemed very strong. But as other researchers tried to replicate them, they faded away into statistical noise. In 1993, for example, a scientist reported a genetic link to male homosexuality in a region of the X chromosome. The report brought a huge media fanfare, but other scientists who tried to replicate the study failed. The scientist's name was Dean Hamer.

/end snip/

It appears that much of Hamer's research on the so-called "gay gene" (which, I noticed in googling on this, only addresses male homosexuals, not lesbians, not bi-sexuals, not transgenders or anything else.) has been debunked over the years. Makes it kinda hard for this non-believer to take anything the guy says/writes without a big chunk of sodium chloride.

[progressoid]

96. Hmmm...Some atheists also believe that...

this "need" to believe in the supernatural is actually the opposite of the evolution of higher learning. Those of us that have overcome the primitive urge to genuflect, prostrate, or offer burnt offerings see Reason as the evolution of higher learning, not religion.

[The Magistrate]

25. It Would Be A Tricky Business, Ma'am

In my view, atheism is not so much a positive conviction as it is a conclusion that none of the various diety tales are accurate descriptions of anything outside the minds of their creators. This conclusion arises from the incompatability between them all, and from the poor fit between their descriptions of events and what can be determined to have actually happened, where-ever their accounts can be checked by investigation. At this point a step is made similar to that made by anyone who has been told a series of untruths: that as all previous statements from this source have been false, any new or fresh ones are going to be as well.

In order to teach this, you would have to systematically point out the flaws in the various belief systems, including your own, and explain why these persuade some to draw the conclusion these systems are false. That, Ma'am, would be an undertaking for a saint indeed.

[BlueEyedSon]

39. Lets start here:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
--Stephen Roberts

[Book Lover]

42. May I take a moment to say

that I always enjoy reading your posts? Thank you.

[tkmorris]

62. Well put

I think you have succinctly pointed out one of the more basic reasons why religious people of most faiths often do not empathize more with the atheist/agnostic view. In order to truly examine what an atheist/agnostic believes a theist must examine what the atheist finds flawed in the theist' beliefs.

This is obvious of course, but somehow I never thought of it in quite that way. I find that looking at it in this fashion makes me feel a bit more sympathetic to some of the more determined religious believers in my small sphere.

[Warpy]

27. I can only speak for myself when it comes to belief or lack of it

However, calling atheism a religion misses the point completely. It is not a religion. There are no sacred texts, there no liturgy, there is no structure whatsoever, and atheists don't gather together to proclaim their disbelief. There's just a total lack of religion, not an alternative to it.

What is the case is that PET scans seem to indicate that belief or lack of it may be hardwired into our brains. Therefore, it becomes an exercise in futility for atheists to try to talk believers out of belief and for believers to try to convert atheists. The best either side can accomplish is lip service through active bullying, something I think we can all agree is not a good thing.

The best thing would be to say that some folks just don't believe all the stories and that's their business and nothing will change that.

After all, there are truly rotten believers and truly ethical atheists, so belief or lack of it isn't an indicator of much of anything in the real world except to give a clue as to how you might spend your Sundays.

[maxsolomon]

28. Atheism is NOT a "belief system"

teach your kids about Pantheism.

[kcwayne]

32. Well of course

Christians in general who say they will pray for you, as though you are somehow defective and uninformed are particular irritating. When they ask you to pray for their crises, or hand out platitudes about God's will, it is offensive.

Suppose that I as a stranger walked up to you and said "I am sorry for your misfortune. I am going to use my knowledge of reason, logic, and scientific principle to work on a solution to help you. We could arrive at a solution faster if you would use these processes as well, because it is obvious that praying for Divine intervention hasn't worked for millions of people over thousands of years, and there is no reason to suggest that is going to change today.

Would you find that presumptuous and condescending? A large number of people that integrate religion thoroughly into their lives assume that everyone has. Our culture and language are so predisposed to promotion of religion which is so pervasive it is not even perceived as such. Such as when I sneeze, and someone says "God Bless You".

[youthere]

83. Do you find this presumption

to be true with other faith traditions say..Muslims or Jewish individuals or just Christians?

[kcwayne]

89. I have friends who are Buddist, Muslim, Hindus, Confucionists, and Jews

Of all of those only Muslims, Hindus, and Christians have ever been "in my face" with prosyletizing. Actually only the Christians and Hindus have prosyletized.

The Hindus were actually just American kids sucked up in the Hare Krisna movement so I discount their understanding of Hinduism as equivalent to a fling with drugs that a lot of 18 year olds do. In other words, I don't consider them to be knowledgable practioners of Hinduism.

The Muslims I knew told me that I was wrong for being an apostate, and would be punished by God. But that was only one time when the subject of religion came up for some reason and we got into an open discussion. They never tried to push me into belief, probably because they assumed that as an infidel, it was a lost cause anyway. They were all Arabs (Lebonese, Kuwaiti, and Saudi).

The Christians on the other hand.... but never mind, it just starts flame wars.

I operate on the principle that I don't care what others believe, and it is not my mission to convince them that I am right and they are wrong. I respect Christians who hold the same principles. I abhor those that don't.

[lapislzi]

33. Douglas Adams, Richard Dawkins

Both write eloquently on an absence of belief.

For me it was never a choice. I couldn't make myself believe in something for which I could find no empirical evidence.

Notice I said "absence of belief." I don't "actively" "not-believe." I simply have an absence where the belief (ought to) go.

I commend you for your open minded approach.

[youthere]

56. Well put.

Thank you. I know I repeatedly refer to Atheism as "a belief system" but that is only for lack of a better word I now have it. Absence of belief.

[lapislzi]

114. I do have a belief system

It just doesn't involve supernatural beings or occurences.

Sorry; I should have been more clear. My belief system is evidence based.

I believe that everything, ultimately, has a rational explanation. Some things can't be explained by the limited human mind, although we are learning all the time. 40 years ago DNA was a complete mystery, but we understand more today--because of evidence. Some things are beyond our comprehension, but I can live with that because I believe there exists some empirical rational explanation. That's a kind of faith.

Then there's that funny gray area where intuition lives that I like to go. I assume that one day we will be able to explain this phenomenon rationally, but we can't right now, and that's fine too.

I hope I have not muddied the waters overmuch.

[NeoGreen]

36. Here is some background info I stumbled across...

on another website, that may help answer your questions.
From:
Atheism: A Very Short Introduction
Julian Baggini
Oxford University Press, 2003.

"However, I would not to fall into the trap of trying so hard to correct preconceptions that I end up painting an unduly rosy picture of atheism. Most Atheists see themselves as realists - their athesimis part of their willingness to square up to the world as it is and face it without recourse to superstition or comforting fictions about a life to come or a benevolent power looking after us. Being such realists requires us to accept that much of what goes on in the world is unpleasant. Bad things happen, people have miserable lives, and you never know when blind luck (not fate) might intervene to change your own life for the better or for the worse.

because of this, athesists tend to find relentless, blind cheeriness anathema. There is black humor for the atheist in evangelical Christians with their bumper stickers asking you to 'honk if you love Jesus'. What is both comic and depressing aout the sticker is that it reflects cheering self-assuredness of believers who need only remind themselves of their religious belief to feel that little bit better about the world. The crass simplicity of this world view can be darkly comic, in that it throws into relief how easy it is for humans to give in to comforting idiocy."

Or in other words, Atheists are grown-ups who understand that there is no such thing as Santa Claus and accept responsibility for the world as we make it, theists are children who still believe in Santa and believe with all their heart that he will make the world better for them.

Also, you may glean some insight from:

www.positiveatheist.com/ThisSite/faq-whyatheism.shtml

and

http://www.mwillett.org/atheism/whyatheism.htm

[eallen]

43. Have them read Bertrand Russell. And...

While Russell gives a good example of how an atheist might think about a broad variety of issues, the recommendation is broader than that. He is one of the preeminent thinkers in the analytic tradition, and no one's education is complete having missed him.

Beyond that, I would approach an explanation of atheism somewhat differently than many do. Since you're teaching them about a variety of religions, it should be obvious that most people choose to believe one rather than all the others, usually the one their parents believe. Few people believe more than one religion, since most religions are exclusive of others. But is it required to believe any? Why does one have to choose a religion at all? Atheism is most easily explained as the "none of the above" option. If that seems odd, consider that the ahderents of any one religion reject all the others. A Christian, for example, does not believe Islam or Hindusim or Ba'hai or Scientology or Shinto or any other religion. An atheist simply rejects one more religion than the Christian.

I don't think it is that important to get into the differences between agnosticism, weak atheism, strong atheism, and all the semantic nits that get picked. If you want a book on atheism, per se, I think George Smith's is one of the better ones.

[applegrove]

44. Agreed - as with any other 'creed' agnostics are on a scale.

For me I grew up and was surrounded by wonderful Christians. I went to church, Sunday school. I tried to pray but could not. Forcing me to pray or conger up something that wasn't there was anxiety causing. I can empathize with people who are religious and believe in a way of behaving. In fact I behave in very, very Christian ways (or what I considered Christian until Bush came along and confused my views on what Christian ways were). These ways I act (with empathy) I inherited from lovely people biologically and by watching them. I could also be mistaken for a Buddhist and have been told that by Buddhists. For me it is about actions. And it is about that Golden rule which all religions follow: treat others as you would wish to be treated. I believe Jesus was a great man and walked the earth 2000 years ago and said some groundbreaking things. The only church event that brought me to deep feeling was a Sunday school trip when my Christian Church elders took us to a Synagogue to sit and listen and ask question of a rabbi. That made me think that my church was not only old, and loving and ruled filled, but it was also not afraid of 'others'. Actions speak louder than words. I admire the devout Christians (and the devout of other religions). I do not admire the conflict organized religion creates and the number of death that result. I see monotheism as a huge thing... as something that made the lives of millions much safer & better...they followed wise & empathetic people as opposed to the random chance of local custom. I see that the devout (in any religion) have strength I do not have (faith). I see that I have some skepticism that some of them do not have. I think the world needs all of us. And I do not know who created the planets & the earth... but I call that person a "creator" on the rare chances I think of discuss them, because I live in North America and "Creator" is the english world the first people of the place I am from used to describe the ones responsible for it all in this neck of the woods. I very much wish the pope had not stopped the Catholic Church from promoting 'Condom use' for people in AIDS stricken countries this week. That will kill millions and it makes me very angry. When people ask my "okay - so how do you think the world was created" I say and mean: "I do not know". The Christian elders I grew up around may perhaps have been 'hidden' agnostics too (taking the wonderful values of the Christian tradition to heart but not believing in the 'miracles' - the church itself didn't take the Bible Literally - was not fundamentalist). I never hear my elders admit to believing anything I couldn't follow - except that they claimed to believe in an almighty god. I can recite the odd prayer and do so when I pray for the religious. I do this by empathy. I do not pray for myself using god - if i pray for strength - I pray to my ancestors and think about their life stories.

[Ufour20]

49. Atheist don't believe in forcing their opinions on others...

I think that's one of the most important aspects to consider. I hate being preaced to and hate the fact that so many people in position of power use religion to advance their on struggle for more power. Atheism is is a lack of belief in a god, nothing more, nothing less. We live our live day to day just like everyone else, without the hypocrisy of many on the religious side.

[physioex]

53. Gotta agree with you there...

More people have been killed in the name of religion than anything else...Such a shame.

[shrike]

74. Not always, unfortunately

I've met a few atheists who actively tried to argue me over to their position. If I were "truly intelligent," they implied, I'd suscribe to their point of view.

And I am the most laid-back believer I know. Never, ever talk religion publicly. But when they found out I went to church, then they started in on me.

[smoogatz]

54. The thing about atheists is...

they don't care if you or your kids think atheism is or isn't a valid choice. Just don't try to force your wacky superstitions on us. Believe or not. Whatever.

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. A possible resource for you:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/index.shtml

BBC pages, describing atheism and agnosticism with the same approach as they discuss various religions, and useful links.

I don't find that people regard atheism or agnosticism as an invalid choice- I live in the UK. This might be a useful thing to consider - that views about atheism vary around the world just as they do for religions. It's interesting that while some attempts to enforce atheism by authoritarian regimes have failed, once the regime falls (Albania or Russia, for instance), the most atheist nation is said to be the Czech Republic - who, a century or two before Luther and his Protestant movement, attempted to reform Catholicism and were oppressed for their pains. Many other European countries with official or semi-official churches also have a high rate of atheism.

[karlrschneider]

57. Here is a somewhat tangential comment on the subject, don't know who

originally wrote it...

On edit: This isn't directed at you, personally, it's something to
say to fundamentalists...;-)


10. You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods of other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9. You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created directly from dirt.

8. You laugh at polytheists, but have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7. Your face turns purple when you hear the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua", including women, children and trees!

6. You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and ascended into the sky.

5. You are willing to spend your life looking for loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing the Earth is a few generations old.

4. You believe the entire population of this planet with the exception of those that share your beliefs -- though excluding those in rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving".

3. While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor and speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2. You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence prayer works. And you think the remaining 99.9% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1. You actually know less than many atheists and agnostics do about
the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself
a Christian.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

[China_cat]

63. You forgot

Your religion is based on the death of a particular avatar and promises rewards only AFTER death.

But tries to convince people that it is concerned with life and life-affirming.

[CrispyQ]

87. I don't know what I like best . . .

Your top 10 list or your saying about life!

Thanks! Both are keepers!!

[karlrschneider]

95. Heh, thanks. (Just got back from errands sorry to be so late)

:D

[ourbluenation]

59. Did you cover the Bahai Faith in your studies?

Just curious...also - what about agnostics?

[youthere]

67. No

We haven't. We've done kind of a "generic" study. We hit the major faiths (if that's a fair word) (maybe "name brand" would be a better description) Christianity, Judiasm, Buddhism, Islamic. We have done some readings from the sacred texts from each of these. We talked about extremes in each of the practices but did not extensively cover "denomination" or other subdivisions within each of the major world religions. I meant it to be a unit, but it turns out the kids are fascinated by it, so we have been going deeper and deeper with it. We've discussed destructive and positive aspects of the major world religions. I know that I've left gaps, but hopefully we'll close many of them time goes on and hopefully it will be something they will continue to study as they grow.

[Behind the Aegis]

107. What about pagans?

Did you touch on that "branch?" It is a huge mix of many things, but it is rapidly growing in this country and others. It is very interesting when comparing older religions to the newer ones. I have done a comparative mythology program that rattled a few cages, but it was still good! :)

[Hamlette]

60. excellent article from another thread posted on DU today

http://www.cfimetrony.org/natalie.html

As to the atheist/agnostic argument it is semantics. Agnostic is just the socially acceptable way of saying atheist. If you say you won't/don't "believe" until you have "proof" then you don't believe in god.

Remember, where reason ends, faith begins. If you end your belief system with reason, you are an atheist because the only way to be anything else is to have faith (nee to believe in something for which there is no proof.)

If you are interested in how the courts have dealt with the question, let me know and I'll get you a link or at least the cite to Seeger v the Secretary of Defense (can't remember who it was at the time, Laird?). The armed services said you had to believe in god to be a consciencious objectior. the US Supreme Court (back in the day when they used reason, mostly) said a secular humanist did have a belief system and could be a CO. Of course, near the end of the opinion they said "This would be a different result if Seeger was an atheist." Sheesh. I don't know one atheist who isn't a secular humanist but the court wanted to say they were not supporting atheism.

At least they reached the right result, if for the wrong reason.

I also boldly assert that somewhere between 25 and 50% of the people in the world are atheists. This goes to your inquiry about feeling left out. Yeah, we do. But we are so arrogant we don't really care because we are convinced we are right. (Ok, I'll speak for myself.)

[BlueEyedSon]

70. I was just about to post this... here is an excerpt:

And so, to me, atheism means what it says – without god or gods, living your life without recourse to a large chiaroscuro of a supreme being to credit or to explain or to excuse. Now I’ll be the proud mother and say that my daughter understands this. A couple of days ago, in preparation for this talk, I was interviewing her, asking her a few questions about how she viewed her heathen heritage. First I asked her if she believed in god. She crinkled up her nose at me like I had mentioned something distasteful, like spinach and liver, or kissing a boy, and said, No! I asked her if she was sorry she’d been raised as an atheist, and she said no, she liked it. I asked why. First, she said, you don’t have to waste Sundays going to pray. Also I’d rather do things myself than have somebody else do them for me. If somebody gets sick, I wouldn’t just pray to god he or she gets better, I would try to buy some medicine for them, to help them get better.

Oh, I liked that answer. I couldn’t help it. This sounded to me like, what do you call it, a value system. She also said that she likes to see things for herself before believing in them. If a friend told me, guess what, I’ve got a flying dog, I’d say, can I see it. Katherine said she has friends who claim they’ve seen god. One of her close friends told her she’s seen bright lights in the middle of the night that she knows were signs from Jesus. So Katherine asked her if she could do a sleepover, to check out the light for herself. Oh, you’d never see it, her friend replied. Only people who believe in god can see it.

As Richard Dawkins has said, “With religion, there’s always an escape clause.”

[msmcghee]

61. A very cool explanation of atheism and . .

. . where we are coming from. Well, I don't speak for all atheists - but this one speaks very well for me.

http://www.cfimetrony.org/natalie.html

[youthere]

69. very cool indeed. n/t

[Malva Zebrina]

64. atheism (small "a") is the lack of belief in gods

simply put, atheists just cannot believe in gods. Just cannot see their way to that belief. Many realize this at an early age,say thirteen, even though they were schooled in one religion or another, many find it impossible to believe in gods.

However, the population of atheists may look to be the same mix as any other in any religion. There are good, there are bad, there are immoral and there are moral, there are kind and unkind etc. In other words,they are as vulnerable to the temptations met along the way as any other human being and as capable of striving toward better.

I would suggest that in teaching children that they try observe and compare the lives lived by atheists with those who believe and surely there will be seen little difference at all--That is if you are willing to do so in view of your own faith. Just saying because I do not know you.

I mention this because often, very often the atheist is depicted as "lacking" something that believers possess because of their religious belief and faith. I have never found out what that is and no one believer has yet to tell me or show me.

This is a sterotype that irks me most.

[Az]

65. I have met people that were astounded

They didn't know that atheists exist. Its difficult to blame them as there is not exactly a concerted effort for us to "Get our message out".

In part this is because we are not an organized group. We don't evangelyze or seek to convert others. Most atheists come to their atheism privately. They find their own way to the position. Either by never accepting the notions of god or after believing for some time coming to realise it does not make sense to them.

There is a sort of shared sense amongst atheists that they have discerned a big lie being perpetrated on society. They see it as a negative. Some are able moderate this feeling and remain tolerant and respectful of others beliefs. Some however see it as an illness in society.

Atheism in general is oppressed in this society. It is not the same sort of oppression that racial minorities or homosexuals experience. We have our own particular natures that make our situation different. Not worse, just different.

As we are not easily recognisable in public most atheists don't recognise each other. Thus it is difficult for us to form social groups that we can share our joys and concerns with others that have similar beliefs with. This creates a social disconnect for many atheists that can be quite tramatic. Many even remain closeted to enjoy the social benefits of certain belief structures.

We are a permissibly oppressed minority. People speak out about lack of belief being evil. It is stated that without a belief in god we cannot be moral citizens. Prominent celebrities dismiss us as untrustworthy and not even warranting citizenship. And yet there is no out cry. No one blinks twice when an atheist is cut down in public. There are billboards posted across the nation proclaiming that we are going to burn in hell. Yet if we say one negative thing about a belief we are pounced on by all within hearing range(or reading range).

There are no elected officials who are openly atheist. A recent poll showed that all other things being equal over 51% of the people would vote against a person just for being open about their atheism. We have no voice in politics. We have no ally that will stand up and defend us directly.

The best thing you could teach your children is that atheists are people just like everyone else. They have opinions on what is good and wonderful. They know evil when they see it. The primary difference is simply that we do not believe in god or gods. We feel love, saddness, joy, anger, and every other emotion believers feel in exactly the same way. We are more alike than we differ.

[youthere]

68. Thank you AZ

That helps immeasurably. That is my purpose in exposing my kids to other "religions". I want them to respect and value individuals,no matter what they believe, or not. Beautifully written AZ.

[BlueEyedSon]

72. Obviously, we need to organize... to further our "lack of an agenda"

Otherwise we run the risk of being trampled by the agenda of the organized theists.

[BlueEyedSon]

73. I bet you are stoked at all the input the DU community can provide

# Christianity: 2 billion
# Islam: 1.3 billion
# Hinduism: 900 million
# Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
# Buddhism: 360 million
# Chinese traditional religion: 225 million
# primal-indigenous: 150 million
# African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million
# Sikhism: 23 million
# Juche: 19 million
# Spiritism: 14 million
# Judaism: 14 million
# Baha'i: 6 million
# Jainism: 4 million
# Shinto: 4 million
# Cao Dai: 3 million
# Tenrikyo: 2.4 million
# Neo-Paganism: 1 million
# Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
# Rastafarianism: 700 thousand
# Scientology: 600 thousand
# Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Freddy Mercury and Zubin Mehta are/were Zoroastrians.

[youthere]

78. Yes I am!

Never an unanswered question on DU. :-) That's why I love it here.

[BlueEyedSon]

75. Almost 1 billion Atheist/Secular/Agnostic/Nonreligious BTW

in case you missed my previous post.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

[slutticus]

76. Try this link.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist.htm

[youthere]

80. Good link...

Thank you!

[BiggJawn]

77. I do find it to be the case.

Reactions vary from benign amusement to outright hostility.
It's as though saying "I want proof of God, and until I see it, I'm not believing it." is some kind of mental illness.

I choose not to believe. It can't be proven, has never been proven, and I refuse to take it "on faith". I can't understand why so many people can't get their brains around the fact that it's just as valid a choice as any other.

Could explain a lot of my own hostility...

[blm]

82. There is a 1997 Windsurfer article where Kerry discusses this very thing.

It's brought up in a discussion about relating to other countries and their religions and how you try to understand the people in countries where they have NO religion or deities. He said he tries to put himself in their place where they know NOTHING about religion and have no influences whatsoever.

He's one of the only politicians I ever heard discuss this as part of our relations with other countries.

[BlueEyedSon]

86. Proud windsurfer here!

http://www.americanwindsurfer.com/mag/back/issue5.5a.html

[Nobody]

91. You are doing what I wish was done more often

Comparing religions and encouraging your children to think for themselves. That way, if they do choose a religion, it will be a sincere belief rather than because it was the only one offered.

I'm an atheist and I look at it as the None of the Above option. I'm an atheist because I HAVE looked at several religions mainly out of curiosity. I found that they contradict each other and no one is truly penalized or rewarded for believing in one and not another. No proof exists as to which is correct, and no vindictive deity representing any religious tradition has given the slightest inkling that he/she/it is displeased with those who don't follow that one's preferred doctrines.

Your kids are lucky to have someone like you teaching them that there are many facets to humanity and they'll actually get to appreciate the variety instead of being afraid of what's different.

[CrispyQ]

92. My 2¢ -- I call myself atheist, but these are my beliefs.

I believe that the existence or non-existence of God is irrelevant for the following reasons:

1. I don't need my ethics spelled out for me by a 'supreme' being, a priest, or any other being for that matter. I know what is right & what is wrong. Even if a person chooses a pre-defined ethical code, if you believe in free will, it comes down to each moment & will you follow the code you have chosen or not?

2. I don't need the motivation of reward or the fear of punishment to do what's right. I choose to do what's right because it's the right thing to do. If I choose not to do what's right it's because I sold out my ethics; I lowered my standards. Only I can deal with that.

3. The question of life after death is irrelevant as well. The only moment that matters is THIS ONE!

=====
some bumper sticker philosophy:

Religion is for people afraid of going to hell. Spirituality is for those who have been there.

Born OK the first time.

When religion ruled the world they called it the dark ages.

=====

Good luck in your teachings! Tolerance is always a good message & education is the key.

[omulcol]

109. Absolutely ....

You are absolutely right !

[marions ghost]

98. Hmmm...difficulty answering

While I certainly support your efforts to provide a broader perspective for your children, I don't feel I'm a deist or an atheist.

This concept is probably not helpful for young children who need definite categories, but I honestly don't think I fall into either of the 2 "opposites"--1) religious follower/deist or 2) agnostic/atheist. I have studied many religions and appreciate their teachings, but wouldn't subscribe to any one of them. And I would argue that agnosticism and even atheism are still "belief systems"--ie. perspectives which sustain an individual and provide a coping mechanism for this strange journey called life on earth.

Unlike the agnostic/atheist I do not consider myself a skeptic. For example, I believe beyond all doubt that mental energy in the form of a thought or prayer can travel beyond the body and affect other living things. Therefore I believe in prayer in any form, Christian or otherwise. I believe that there is no death, only transformation.
I believe it matters very much how we treat others in this life, and how we live in general, not so much out of fear of retribution, but because we create the future with our own actions. In short, I have had many experiences which make me believe that there is something big and mysterious and fabulous going on, but I seem to resist attaching a named entity or belief system to it. It feels like a state of being merely open, (some might say susceptible) to the non-rational, or the immaterial realms. It isn't about god or not-god for me, and there's no sense of "lack," or yearning for answers.

Is there a term for this perspective? Perpetual Ambiguity? Maybe some philosopher has expounded on this? I honestly don't know, and haven't really looked at it analytically. Not to digress too much from the topic I hope. It's all just chat to me.

[ConcernedCanuk]

99. Agnostic is the closest category I would put myself in

.
.
.

I rarely get into religious discussions, as I find many are of the opinion that "their" religion is the ONLY religion . .

Especially it seems, those that prefer to knock on your door at the most inopportune times.

My mother flip-flopped from one church to another when I was a child.

Started out going to a Presbyterian United, then an Anglican(at the same time) I was in 2 church choirs, and did the 9:00 service at the United, and the 11:00 service at the Anglican -(yup - lots of practices during the week too!)

Then we tried a Quakers group, then a "Friends" group.

I remember an incident that "put me off" so to speak about the benefits of religion, besides being offered so many choices, but never really delving deeply into any one religion, although I ended up being "confirmed' as an Anglican when I was 15.

I came home one day from high school when I was 15, my mother and her "Friends" were in deep prayer in the living room, which was necessary to go through to get into the house.

Something had happened at school that day (irrelevant to this story) that I felt necessary to speak to my mother. On starting to speak, I was met with disapproving stares from her "Friends", and a rebuke from my mother for speaking while they were praying.

Not normally outspoken, but with the urgency and ferocity of a teen in puberty, I burst out with " What the hell kind of god is it you are praying to that would disapprove of me talking to my own mother??"

Needless to say, that did not endear me to the group, and mother hastily rushed me out of the room . . I was never "forgiven" for my "sin"

Since then, I have been involved with and exposed, mostly through girlfriends, to the Baha'i faith, Scientology, Born Again Christians, some Native Spiritual Ceremonies, and I'm sure some others that fail my memory. I have never been a regular church-goer since my teens.

Most pertinent to your query may be my reaction one time when Jehovah's witnesses came to my door one rainy morning while I had a hangover from the night before. After standing debating back and forth for a bit, in an effort to extricate myself politely from the conversation, I responded with the following, or close to it anyways.

"I was brought up as a Presbyterian, confirmed as an Anglican, although I did not really "believe", later exposed to the Quakers group, Friends group, Scientology, Baha'i, and have friends that are Jews and Catholic. I have seen lots of people in church(es) that come nowhere near living by the intent of the Ten Commandments, which I sort of hold as one heck of a good set of rules to live by, in other words, I see them as hypocrites. Hypocrites are not specific to any religion, and rather than "peg" myself to a particular religion, I will live by the Ten Commandments, The Golden Rule, and many other guidelines as per different religions and beliefs, BUT I will never live long enough to study all religions deeply enough to decide which one is "right".

So unless you (I'm still talking to the JW people here) are a heck of a lot smarter than me, and have studied ALL the other religions as deeply as the religion you are pushing on me at MY doorstep, I'll ask you to leave."

They did, but I'll never know whether it was because of my "speech", or the fact that I kept them out in the rain while this discussion was going on, and were glad to get themselves out of this crazy persons face!

Point - teach your children the values you believe in; "having" a religion is not necessary to live in peace and treat your fellow man decently. There are MANY true "believers" that are just plain nasty people, and would not fit into any REAL example of what may be considered a "good" Christian, Jew, Catholic, Muslim, etc.

Why I say I'm "Agnostic" ?

I can't/won't say there is NO god, cuz I just don't know!

I can't call myself Atheist, because I can't, and won't deny the existence of a god, gods, or spirits.

I decided long ago, that I can live a "godly" life if you will, without believing in god, gods, or spirits if that makes any sense.

Of course, that leaves me out of the crowd that can sin all week, and then "fix" it by praying for forgiveness on the weekend, and start "fresh".

I convinced myself many years ago, that I could never "judge" a religion unless I studied them all with equal depth and intensity, and I just don't think I'd live that long!

So, I live by what I see as the "best" in the different religions I have been exposed to, and am content with my belief/non-belief whichever some may wish to describe it.

I don't judge people by their choice of religion, but rather by how they treat their fellow man.

Dat's it!

[bling bling]

100. Here's the insight I would offer.

Have you ever studied the history of religion? Going back in time and studying the facts about religion is the best insight I've ever had. I recommend it to everyone.

As hunters and gatherers, early man lived to survive. It wasn't until they found ways to cultivate the land and store food that they had time to begin philosophizing about things.

The Phoenicians developed the first form of writing. Here you can see in the style of writing that people were by and large deathly afraid of God as they attributed almost all natural disasters such as Volcanoes erupting and earthquakes to God.

As the land was developed it made travel easier and people were able to communicate their philosophies to other people living in distant villages. Typically, the dominant belief system tended to be the belief system of the people living in the reigning empires - the Greeks, the Romans, etc. The Greeks executed people who didn't subscribe to their beliefs. Both the Greeks and the Romans were misogynists (read Pandora's box, very similar to Adam and Eve -- the woman is the reason for man's suffering).

At this time in history, life for the common man was pitiful. People literally toiled through a life filled with suffering and hardship. When Christianity first surfaced, it appealed to the common man because it gave them, finally, some comfort that though their lives suck, they at least have something to look forward to in death (heaven).

Many historians attribute the success of Christianity's rise to the development of roads in Rome. As word of this new philosophy/religion reached the commoners throughout the land, it attracted people like a magnet (especially women - who were treated like absolute dogshit by men). The Roman leaders tried to stifle this new religion by executing its followers in Colisseums. But this backfired on them. Believers in Christ weren't afraid of death because they had heaven to look forward to -- in fact, it was the only thing they had to look forward to. The audience watched these Christians being executed and were taken by the fact that they seemed peaceful and even happy about being killed. Christianity was here to stay. And the Romans eventually understood that. So instead of continuing their fight against Christians, the Romans basically took it over. They revised the bible to make sure that there was nothing in it that made the Romans look bad (Pontius Pilate, for example). They modified the "equal opportunity" religion to fit more in line with their woman-hating beliefs (Eve became the personfication of the argument that women are careless, cannot be trusted, un-intelligent, caniving).

At that time only the rich elite and Preachers could read or write. So what the people were taught was completely controlled. The Catholic priests told people that the more money they gave the church, the more they would be forgiven for their sins.

It wasn't until the invention of the printing press that the common folk were finally allowed to begin their own bible study. The Catholics were challenged by people such as Martin Luther who started Lutheranism out of opposition to the Church charging people to "pay" for their sins. Slowly, you begin to see the birth of differing sects of Chritianity based on varying interpretations of the bible.

However, all sects of Chritianity had two common enemies: 1) Women and 2) Science. As technology developed, it was discovered that the the Church was in fact incorrect on many of its teachings about the earth and space. For example, a man named Copernicus demonstrated through the telescope that the earth revolves around the sun and not the other way around. Christian leaders ostracized him. But science prevailed (thanks in large part to Gallileo). Slowly too, women began challenging the misogyny of the Church by writing their own essays defending themselves and thanks to these brave women and the sympathetic men who supported them, the women's movement was born.

This is a very long but not even close to complete summary of the history of Christianity. I think it is imperative to understand its history to understand why many people don't buy into it. Christianity, at its core, does not resemble the "religion" that Christianity is supposedly based on. It just doesn't. I don't see how anyone could read the bible and then read the history of this religion and think otherwise.

I personally think that many agnostics and atheists are realists who have studied the history and simply don't buy it. Just my opinion, of course.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

101. As a scientist, I am forced by convention to be atheistic...

Science allows for beliefs in the form of well-formed and testable theories, which may or may not validate the initial "belief" of the scientist. Whether knowledge is derived apriori or aposteriori (different debate here), there is NO WAY TO TEST the viability or truth of religious beliefs like an afterlife, miracles, extracorporeal entities (soul, angels, demons, etc.), heaven/hell, or even gOD himself. As such, I am bound by my training and worldview to discount any beliefs or theories that cannot be tested; hence, I am an atheist. If anyone has something for science to test regarding the existence of gOD, I would be more than happy to reassess my convictions on the issue.

BTW - I do, however, "believe" in humankind's need for an existence beyond our plane and time as a means to explain the inhumanity, injustice, and horrors that can beset any of us. This doesn't mean that the belief or need is correct, it just means that it exists and serves a psychological purpose for some.

JB

[elderly man]

103. Approximately 50% of scientists believe in God

according to the American Association for The Advancement of Science.

[bling bling]

104. Religion without science is blind.

Science without religion is boring.

Or something like that. I think it was Einstein who said it.

[mainer]

112. It varies depending on your scientific subspecialty

I believe there was a survey by the National Academy of Science. Biologists are the least likely to believe in God. Engineers and mathematicians, I think are more likely to believe in god (interestingly enough.) I'll see if i can find it.

[mainer]

113. Link -- over 70% of NAS members are non-believers

National Academy of Science survey shows overwhelming dis-belief in god


http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

118. And, all deists benefit from science...so what's your point.

Some people can divorce their professional life from their personal one. I just find it more admirable and less problematic to be consistent in one's philosophies. This is one of the reasons I actually admire Catholics even though I don't share their belief system.

Science and religious experience may be compatable, but science and the existence of unknowables (e.g., gOD, angels, demons, heaven, hell, etc.) are not compatable.

JB

[omulcol]

105. As a Plasterer I am forced to believe ...

that all religions were created in order to control people.

You don't need to be engaged in any profession to understand there is no evidence of any superior person being responsible for the creation of anything, including that of man.

Even if "God" himself had provided such evidence of his omniprescence, or existence .... there would still be no justification in continually and persistently worshipping him for it.
It's as silly as worshipping the Egyptians for building the Great Pyramid.

In this sense we could argue : We know " God " created mankind, and all things - but have no obligation to maintain our gratitude for it..


The primary sin of believers, and of religions is that of influencing, and indocrtrinating children to continue a belief in something for which there is no proof.
It's an unhealthy continuation of fallacy.

50% of scientists believe in God ... is a senseless statement .
Are we supposed to convert to religion on this premise ?

One might also proclaim, " 55% of scientists own pet cats.

"Scientists", may enter, or have access to, certain areas of information that most have not .... but it doesn't make them superior in all things ... or to anyone else ... and we shouldn't be led to think in such blinkered ways.

God is many things to many people, and many people have different beliefs and conceptions of what God is. There is no conclusive evidence of " His" existence other than that created by mortal men for their own selfish intentions - which in any event has proved to be a historically dangerous manipulation of the world

In such times, civilisation should be rejecting all ideas relative to religion, as Witchcraft , ( also created by religion) was eventually discouraged and disbelieved ... and we need to question why religious beliefs and indoctrination is increasing rather than diminishing - considering there is still no evidence to support it.

[CrispyQ]

116. You state:

"It's as silly as worshipping the Egyptians for building the Great Pyramid.

In this sense we could argue : We know " God " created mankind, and all things - but have no obligation to maintain our gratitude for it.."

Isn't it interesting, with so much religion & belief in God, that humans take better care to maintain man's work, the pyramids, more than 'God's' work, the planet?

You hit the nail on the head with your statement that religions were created in order to control people. It's also a very useful tool to identify which people you can't control.

Finally, like you, I'm intrigued why religious beliefs are increasing rather than diminishing. Hmmmm, an interesting topic to investigate.

[Stirk]

102. I consider myself a spiritual atheist.

I used to think that was an oxymoron, but I don't anymore. I'm lucky enough to work in a field that offers me occasional long stretches of free time. About 10 years ago, I started doing alot of long distance treks of one sort or another. Multi-week trail hikes, kayak trips, some survival trips in differing climates... that kind of thing.

You really need to live off the land if you're going to stay out for an extended amount of time, and it didn't take long to start feeling like I fit out there. Fishing, hunting, finding water, all that kind of thing. I started to see that we have a natural place in the environment. Nothing's dirty- not your body, or your thoughts, or even the dirt. :D

Anyway, I call that spirituality. I'm an atheist. I don't believe in a personal deity, a divine plan, or an afterlife of any sort. But I feel like I belong here, and that we all have a duty to help others.

[omulcol]

119. A nice point Stirk .... one thing's for sure,

and that is, if all politicians were to spend more time amongst nature it's possible we'd all benefit from THEIR spirituality !

"talking to the trees", may be a bit extreme, but thinking around them is not such a bad idea sometimes.

[BlueEyedSon]

110. Among Wealthy Nations, U.S. Stands Alone in its Embrace of Religion

Religion is much more important to Americans than to people living in other wealthy nations. Six-in-ten (59%) people in the U.S. say religion plays a very important role in their lives. This is roughly twice the percentage of self-avowed religious people in Canada (30%), and an even higher proportion when compared with Japan and Western Europe. Americans’ views are closer to people in developing nations than to the publics of developed nations.

The 44-nation survey of the Pew Global Attitudes Project shows stark global regional divides over the personal importance of religion.<1> In Africa, no fewer than eight-in-ten in any country see religion as very important personally. Majorities in every Latin American country also subscribe to that view, with the exception of Argentina. More than nine-in-ten respondents in the predominantly Muslim nations of Indonesia, Pakistan, Mali and Senegal rate religion as personally very important. In Turkey and Uzbekistan, however, people are more divided over religion’s importance.

Secularism is particularly prevalent throughout Europe. Even in heavily Catholic Italy fewer than three-in-ten (27%) people say religion is very important personally, a lack of intensity in belief that is consistent with opinion in other Western European nations. Attitudes are comparable in former Soviet bloc countries. In the Czech Republic, fully 71% say religion has little or no importance in their lives – more than any nation surveyed – while barely one-in-ten (11%) say it is very important. And in Poland, the birthplace of the Pope and where the Catholic Church played a pivotal role during the communist era, just 36% say religion is very important.



More: http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=167

[ngant17]

111. Monotheism evolved from ancient forms of sun worship

Monotheism evolved from ancient forms of sun worship. I believe Sigmund Freud exposed this in his last major work, "Moses and Monotheism".

Browse this link for some related info:

<http://www.geocities.com/ngant17/moses9a.html>

When you worship a supreme deity, a"god", you are subliminally worshipping this object, the sun.

It's pretty well ingrained into our collective psyche. I find it interesting that sun-worship and the concept of a supreme deity is more pronounced in equatorial regions and less-pronounced in temperate regions, such as Eskimo culture in the Artics. In colder regions, 'god' is more vague, a "great spirit'. In hotter climates, 'god' is has a more concrete character, it's practically a direct correlation between the sun and this 'god'.

I can't say I'm an aethist because I believe that the sun exists. I believe in 'god' insofar as the sun exists. I don't believe in imaginary characters, although I accept the mathematical logic of 'imaginary' numbers. One man's (or woman's) bible is probably as good as anyone else's.

[dolo amber]

115. You may want to include "apatheists"

(Thanks trotsky ;))

Some of us just don't much care if there is or is not a God/gods/whatever. I am not going to spend the small amount of time I have on this planet worrying and questioning or trying to live by a certain set of (often contradictory) codes to please *something* I don't have the first shred of evidence exists in the first place. At the same time, I certainly see no reason not do my best to be a decent human being. So it really matters not to me what, if anything, is *up there*. :)

Btw, I think it's fantastic you're taking the time to expose your kids to these things and giving them the opportunity to decide for themselves where they stand. Critical thinking...it's a GOOD thing. :thumbsup: :hi:

[youthere]

117. Thank you to

everyone. I truly appreciate the insights you all offered and the resources as well. I learned a lot just from the posts on this thread and your personal experiences you all generously offered (and I have a lot more to learn as well!) Thank you all again!