The hoax of Satanic Ritual Abuse...

[Dookus]

A lot of people here seem to buy into the idea of satanic ritual abuse cults, in which children are kidnaped, raped and forced to partake in satanic rituals.

This was an idea that gained popularity in the 1980s. Dozens, if not hundreds, of lives were destroyed by these allegations.

Noreen Gosch is one of the women who insist these cults exist. Her son, Johnny Gosch, was kidnaped in 1982 and never heard from again (except for Noreen's claim that he showed up at her door in 1997, which her ex-husband, Johnny's father, discounts).

In the 80s, a number of such scandals were "exposed". People were tried and jailed for their participation. Sounds good, right? Well... consider this. It never happened.

A four-year study in the early 1990s found the allegations of satanic ritual abuse to be without merit. The study was conducted by University of California at Davis psychology professors Gail S. Goodman and Phillip R. Shaver, in conjunction with Jianjian Qin of UC Davis and Bette I. Bottoms of the University of Illinois at Chicago. Their study was supported by the National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect. The researchers investigated more than 12,000 accusations and surveyed more than 11,000 psychiatric, social service, and law enforcement personnel. The researchers could find no unequivocal evidence for a single case of satanic cult ritual abuse.

http://skepdic.com/satanrit.html

____________________________________________________________

But Noreen Gosch has evidence right? No, she doesn't. Much of the argument in her favor relies on the testimony of Paul Bonacci.

Mr. Bonacci is mentally ill... severely so. He admits to having 14 separate personalities. He won a $200,000 judgment against his alleged abuser, Lawrence King. But how did he win it? Because Mr. King did not respond to the suit. It was a default judgment. No court ever decided the merits of Mr. Bonacci's allegations. In fact, one judge in the case wrote that Mr. Bonacci's claims had absolutely no evidence to support them.

In the same scandal, it's been claimed that a girl saw George H. W. Bush at a party for pedophiles, that she saw him exchange cash with Mr. King, and leave with a young black man. This same girl also said she saw a severed head at such a party. Her claims are similar to dozens of other claims made during the same time period - all of which have later been shown to be baseless.

There was a witch-hunt in the 80s. The lives of many people were ruined. Bad science and bad psychology were used in courts of law to destroy many innocent people, based on the implanted "memories" in children by law enforcement officers.

To the people who readily accept the idea that Gannongate is connected to the SRA scandals of the 80s, please read the links above and know that the REAL scandal was the fact that law enforcement was able to "implant" memories into vulnerable children and that such "memories" were non-existent. Look into the McMartin School trial - it was pure bullshit on the part of the police.

As for Noreen Gosch, I feel for her. She's suffered unimaginable loss. But she is a classic paranoid schizophrenic. Her reality is not real.

And also keep in mind that there is NO legitimate connection between the Jeff Gannon story and that of Johnny Gosch. The only connection that exists is because some people believe a gay prostitute MUST be either a victim or perpetrator of pedophilia. That is a bad assumption.

[theorist]

1. What the hell is going on, Dookus?

I haven't followed the "wrinkles" in the PropaGannon story. Everything (even if it were within the realm of extreme possibility) about it seems impossible to prove. (And that's without reading more than a couple posts.

Most of us only have the public record at our disposal. It would be very difficult to make a quarter century long conspiracy unravel with just google and tabbed browsing. Alright, back to proving that GOPUSA are a bunch of criminals....

[Catherine Vincent]

2. I'm glad you started a separate thread on this.

That way the people that agree with you will post on this thread and not the others.

"And also keep in mind that there is NO legitimate connection between the Jeff Gannon story and that of Johnny Gosch. The only connection that exists is because some people believe a gay prostitute MUST be either a victim or perpetrator of pedophilia. That is a bad assumption."

Wrong. That is not the assumption.

[The Magistrate]

3. What Is The Assumption, Ma'am, That Connects The Two Things...

If not that?

[Catherine Vincent]

5. Well for me is the pic of the Gosch kid.

It does look like Gannon. I really didn't start chiming on all of this until those pics were posted. I did not assume the two cases were connected because Jeff is gay. And anyway, once we hear from Gannon or Ms. Gosch and if either one says it's not him then this thing will drop.

[Dookus]

6. What pic?

The pic of a 12 year old? Or the fake aged pics?

The only similarity I see is a chin-cleft. My boyfriend has a similar cleft - should I presume he's Johnny Gosch?

But please... step back. Tell us why you would even consider the idea that Gannon is Gosch. I'm mystified as to why people think there's a link. I sincerely believe the only reason is because people think homosexuality = pedophilia.

[Catherine Vincent]

11. Yes, both of those pics. The age progression pics in other abduction

cases are credible. And I told you that I think it may be Gannon, nothing is certain. If you sincerely believe the only reason people here think homosexuality=pedophilia, then apparently I am wasting my time telling you otherwise.

I don't want to spend a lot of time talking about this because this is not the only topic on DU. I am trying my best to stay away from the other thread for the night because it's probably the reason I can't sleep right now.

Peace.

[Dookus]

14. Well we seem

to have a serious disagreement about the meaning of "credible".

I believe the age-enhanced pic is meaningless. Throw it away. Forget about it. Aged enhanced pictures are worthless. But even if they WERE useful, the only similarity is the chin - and the 12-year old Gosch did not have a prominent chin-cleft. It is all made up.

But that is all minor compared to my primary idea: The ONLY reason people even consider a pedophilia scandal is because Gannon is gay. If Gannon were a straight gigolo, nobody would ever consider a pedophila scandal. If Gannon were a woman with an "interesting" background, nobody would presume she was a)fucking children or b) was fucked as a child.

It is only because Mr. Guckert was both male and gay that people presume he's had a difficult and sordid childhood.

Guckert is not the Gosch boy. The whole idea is insane. Do you think the powerful cult that includes at least two US presidents would be so careless as to put their most famous abductee in the White House Press corps?

[Catherine Vincent]

16. Imo, the chin, the eyes, the cheek bones and the nose resembles.

Btw, who is that in your sig line?

[Dookus]

19. My sigline

is Sinead O'Connor.

but why would you even consider that Gannon is Gosch? You know there is a 10 year age difference, you know Gannon's eye-color doesn't match Gosch's.

Why not connect Gannon to the mafia? Why not connect it to Fatty Arbuckle? Why not connect it to the Salem Witches?


There is NO reason to even think Gannon is connected to a discredited 80's scandal. The ONLY reason this is happening is because a blogger said the homo-in-the-White-House scandal was "remiscent" of the previous non-scandal.

I swear, there is no other reason. Pursuing that line is not only a waste of time and energy, it is a GREAT excuse for the other side to dismiss us altogether. Whatever truth is uncovered in the Gannon case will be immediately dismissed because it is associated with insane disproven scandals from 20 years ago.

[nascarblue]

32. I agree but I think the Gosch situation is a distraction to the...

...big picture. There's definitely more to the story. The immediate CNN damage control with Kurtz and Blitzer, the suspect release of the tapes with Bush saying "I won't fire someone because they're gay". All red herrings and damage control IMO.


When I first saw the photos of Gosch, I immediately thought it to be a stretch. The Gosch photo with the black Adidas shirt and hairstyle are out of sync with Guckert/Gannons age.

The fact is though, the Franklin scandal did happen to some degree and was suppressed from the mainstream under severe political pressure. Why would state senators lie? Why would priests lie? Child services? Sure, some of the victims involved seem to be misguided. But to associate the Franklin scandal with the McMartin school scandal to add to the debunking is a stretch. I wouldn't go that far. I grew up in the same county as the McMartin witch hunt and it was handled much differently. There was no political interference at all. Every night, on every news station were reports. It was most definitely a witch-hunt.

Yet the Franklin scandal received minimal coverage locally in Nebraska despite the fact that there were up to 98 witnesses with FBI and Judiciary testimonies. The FBI lost video taped testimonies, Senators and staff were threatened on the floor of Congress, etc. Witnesses ended up dead or in jail. And lastly, how do you coordinate 98 witnesses spread all over the USA to testify to the many of the same details, such as the Bohemian Grove, Las Vegas, Washington D.C., Boystown, Larry King, and the airplanes? Even when a couple of them were in jail?

I mean we supposedly went to war with Iraq from the testimony of ONE single man...Ahmed Chalabi, who hadn't been to Iraq in 25 years and was a convicted criminal sentenced to 22 years in Egypt(?). That was only one man. Where was the doubt then?

While I do dismiss the Gosch/Gannon twist, I do not dismiss the coincidence that we have yet another hypocritical Bush Whitehouse with many of the same players as in the prior Franklin era Bush 41 Whitehouse. Rove was mentioned in the investigation 11 years ago. Not to mention the unexplainable lapses in FBI and Secret Service security for Gannon, which is similar to the "play dead" stance they took in the Franklin scandal.

For a long list of Republican closeted gays and pedophiles, check out this link...http://www.armchairsubversive.com

And of course the Discovery Channel documentary that was pulled at the last minute...http://www.thelawparty.org/FranklinCoverup/franklin.htm

And how do we explain all the "suicides" and "accidental deaths" that arose out of this supposed fictitous witch hunt? Like I said before, I understand the paranoia that gripped the US during the McMartin years, but you can't discount all the irrefutable evidence attached to the Franklin situation.

One of the more interesting theories I've heard brought up in DU is why did the Rev. Moon's Washington Times, of all publications, break this story? Someone mentioned blackmail. Very possible if you look at all that Rev. Moon has acquired in his networks and benifited since Franklin. Just the fact that Rev. Moon is an ex-convict and has since sent millions to North Korea should be punishable as terrorism don't you think? After all, isn't the media zoo currently covering the Virginia trial of an American muslim who purpotedly received money to buy a laptop computer? How much is a laptop? Surely not millions of dollars? ;-)

Yet Moon is rarely ever mentioned in the media except the occasional newspaper and still is treated by the right-wing as a figurehead and referred to as "Father".

I've always suspected Moon's hunger to dismantle the UN and replace it with his own version might have something to do with his media empire having alot of dirt on the GOP.
http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/moon.html

Also of interest should be this recent interview with survivor Kathleen O' Sullivan. It touches on her meeting with Cathy O' Brian in 1995. I think you'll find it interesting...

http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005_02_01_rigorousintuition_archive.html

Also an excellent Moon archivist and investigator who doesn't nearly get his due can be found here... He has some interesting things to say about the recent Gannon situation as well as much more including a Republican-Moon coronation video...
http://www.iapprovethismessiah.com/

[Catherine Vincent]

133. Yes, there is a 10 age difference but how do we know Gannon's real age?

Imo, he doesn't look 47. And other posters have commented about the eye color stating that it changes from brown to blue or green, from green to blue or blue to green. Whatever truth is uncovered in the Gannon case will be accepted by me whether it involves Gosch, Bush, Rove or whatever. And btw, you do realize the OP is gay, so all of this outrage of linking gayness with pedophilia is uncalled for.

[ender]

50. oh, but i disagree...

>If Gannon were a woman with an "interesting" background,

actually, it is a safe assumption that any woman who is a sex worker was sexually abused.

[ultraist]

124. Bwhahaha!!! Oh, but there IS a link!

A 12 year old photo that has been age enhanced. LMAO!!!

This is fucking hysterical! QUICK, call the National Enquirer, they may run this story.

BTW, I like your photo on your sig line.

[merh]

79. It is you that assumes that Gannon is gay.

Others have warned us not to make that assumption, that we do not know he is gay, we know he is a male prostitute.

We do know that he appears to use sex and that he could be considered a sexual deviant. Given that he advertises his top preference and his preference to control, it would appear he uses sex for power and that he exploits the needs of men who enjoy sex with other men.

The victims of pedophilia all too often are so scarred, they do not have normal sex lives and behaviors such as Gannon's would be consistent with just such a victim.

No one assumed the connection between Gannon and pedophilia just because of the possible homosexual orientation of the man. Someone got a call that pointed them in a direction. Information was pulled and photos examined. Gannon does share similar facial features with Gosch, more than just the cleft chin -- thin upper lip, fuller lower lip, same shape of eyes, eye color (blue/green) check bones. (btw cleft chins are genetic markers - I would like to see photos of the folks that are/were Gannon's parents).

Your assumptions are faulty. I wait to hear from Mrs. Gosch again. Since she hasn't said, "no way he isn't my Johnny", I don't think waiting to hear from her is unreasonable.

Please be careful of the assumptions you make.

[Dookus]

169. As a general rule

if a man repeatedly engages in homosexual conduct of his own free will and while sober, my presumption is that he's not quite straight.

[merh]

174. He can exploit others for sexual purposes and not be

gay.

[The Magistrate]

8. There Is No Resemblence Whatever, Ma'am

The only unretouched photograph of the child in circulation shows nothing on which any point of identity could be based. The "aged" image is not a reliable one; it is a composite of averages, and even these are pursued only to a point much younger than Guckert's evident age.

You will not hear from Mrs. Gosch on the matter, nor will you hear from Guckert on it. Nor would many of those who believe this believe denials; these would be taken as simply the product of fear of the "Hidden Hand", or its bribes, or some other such subornation.

The analysis of the matter presented by Skeptic magazine is a correct one. My memory extends to the time it describes, and the wave of hysteria on the subject of ritual abuse was distuebing to any thinking person, particularly one who has made some small study of witchcraft trials as a youth. No case in which these allegations were brought ever included physical evidence, and were they true, there would necessarily be an abundance of physical evidence in the form of blood residue, bones, and such. Blood is awfully durable; archeologic excavations at sites over a thousand years old have found its traces in analyzable quantities.

The fact is that some people began to link this Guckert affair to pedophilia rings well before the Gosch case was brought into the mix. Why do you, Ma'am, think that was so?

[Catherine Vincent]

15. I can't speak for the others but I didn't link the two that way.

It never crossed my mind.

[Sparkly]

80. I don't see a resemblance either, but

what I saw as something worth at least looking at was a connection between one Bush White House male prostitute scandal and another Bush White House male prostitute scandal. The first one supposedly did involve 15-year-olds, but that's not what created the interest in looking at it, I don't think.

JimJeff may not have been involved, but even if he wasn't, it seems worth taking a look to see whether any of the other names involved looked familiar, since the Bushies do tend to prize "loyalty" and to recycle personnel from the Bush 41 administration to this one. (That could have been one explanation for their ready trust of JimJeff who, if he's indeed 47, would have been a young man of 23 in 1980.)

So I think it was worth checking out for reasons that have nothing to do with automatically equating gays with pedophiles.

[Dookus]

4. I hope they all post in the other threads

but of course, it's hard for reason to be heard amongst the hysteria there.

There is NO link between Gannon and any old pedophilia scandal. Seriously - think about it. There is none. There is only the idea that homosexuality is related to pedophilia.

Nobody has ANY evidence whatsoever connecting the two scandals. NONE! And in fact, the scandal you're trying to link it to never existed in the first place.

There WAS no such scandal. The people who claim there was were either mentally ill, or law enforcement "pushed" the "memories" into them.

People much more dedicated than you or I to this issue have determined that there was never an SRA issue. There is not one single case of satanic ritual abuse that was proven to any reasonable degree.

There is absolutely no reason to think Gannon is Gosch. One blogger said the gay whore issue was "reminiscent" of the King pedophile scandal. Well, King was never prosecuted for any pedophile scandal. The whole brouhaha was based on a sensational headline of the Washington Times, which was then a tabloid rag.

Yes, there was a bad guy in the midwest who raised money for Republicans. He scored a White House tour, and might've brought some of his trade with him. That is a far cry from the other allegations that the Vice President was buying young whores at a party in front of everybody.

Do you really think the VP would exchange cash in public for a fuck? The very idea is absurd.

Noreen Gosch is sick. God bless her, she's suffered more than I would wish on anyone, but her claims are simply not true. Her witnesses are admitted mentally ill, and her husband doesn't believe her.

The desire to hurt George W. Bush is understandable, but we have to maintain some semblance of sanity.


There ARE real issues to be uncovered in Gannongate. But connecting it to long-past and long-discredited satanic ritual abuse cases will ensure that people will not believe ANY aspect of it, regardless of its truth.

In fact, if I were Karl Rove and wanted to discredit the whole anti-gannon case, I'd make sure people connected it to the most insane conspiracy around. It would ensure that the entire case were dismissed as the product of insane paranoids.

[nascarblue]

36. Let me ask you something...

So what do you make of Bohemian Grove? What kind of ritual is that? What's with the robes? Do you discount that even Nixon called them a "cult" and a bunch of "weird homos" as was released on the Nixon tapes?.

And remember what Hunter Thompson said about Nixon....He was the most evil man he had ever met.That was in '94. He also said repeatedly that Bush 43 pales in comparison to Nixon's evil.

Though Hunter's name has been linked to the Franklin scandal, I would not discount what he had to say in summation of Nixon upon his death in 1994. Check it out here...http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2002/12/36930.shtml

And a recent interview with his thoughts on Nixon compared to Bush...
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/investing/20041101a2.asp

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dookus]

9. If Discovery refused to run that documentary...

then good for them.

But can you show me evidence that it was commissioned by Discovery and then refused? The unsubstantiated claims of the producers will not convince me.

[KingoftheJungle]

12. I've seen the documentary...Discovery faced congressional reprocussions

if they aired it and the tapes were subsequently destroyed. I would like to point out that "Satanism" was never a subject of the conspiracy, but a child sex ring. The evidence is astonishing and is not all so dependent on the witness testimony (and oh how convenient it is to discredit their testimony by labeling all of them as "schizophrenics" and lunatics). Watch the video, you can find it on the edonkey network and various web sites.

[Dookus]

18. Can you please show

some evidence that this documentary (which I have watched) was commissioned by the Discovery Channel and then refused?

I have no idea if the claim is true. But if it's true, it should be easy to prove.

But now to Mrs. Gosch. The claims she makes are certainly shocking. Is it wrong to question her outrageous assertions?

It is easily demonstrable that paranoid schizophrenics make the types of claims Mrs. Gosch does. It is far more difficult to show that sane people make similar, verifiable, claims.

[KingoftheJungle]

23. Other than the disclaimer and numerous web postings...

I don't know how I'm supposed to provide any more evidence that they comissioned it without actual internal discovery channel documentation. There seems to be a consensus as to why the discovery channel never aired it (and why would they not comission something they dumped a half million dollars into?) so I don't see any reason to refute it.

EDIT: My version of the documentary states that it was listed to run in the April 30th-May6 edition of TV guide and newspaper supplements. I guess if you can find those then you would have your hard evidence. Furthermore, it says the discovery channel and Yorkshire television were reimbursed for the production costs, which could be more evidence.

I dont know much about Mrs. Gosch's allegations or situation so I'm not going to make any qualitative assessment of her authenticity. All I know about is the original case in the 80's which was explored by the documentary. Furthermore, although being a schizophrenic can severely damage someone's credibility it does NOT imply that everything coming out of their mouth is a damn lie. There was more than enough evidence to support the child sex ring allegations, and there was a clear coverup involved in the investigation.
A tidbit the documentary failed to note was that Gary Caradori's briefcase carrying his evidence (including the address/phone book he found) was not the only thing missing from the plane, but the back seat of the plane. If a bomb were placed in the plane, which is highly likely, it would have most likely been placed in the rear seat. In order to rule out sabotoge the rear seat would have to be removed from the reckage to eliminate the forensic evidence (and, along with the briefcase, is exactly what went missing).

[Dookus]

24. so the short answer

is no, you can't show it was a Discovery Channel documentary. Again, it might be real. I'm just asking for evidence.

I don't claim that every word out of the mouth of a pranoid schizophrenic is a damned lie. But I would suggest one consider the source before putting any money on the veracity of said source.

Mrs. Gosch is likely insane. We know Mr. Baldacci is insane - he admits to 14 personalities.

The speed with which some DUers run toward the nutcases is just shy of c.

[KingoftheJungle]

27. Read again

This documentary was scheduled to air...all anyone has to do is find a tv guide from that week and it will be there.

Additionally, I seriously doubt this documentary would even exist had it not been backed by a distributor. It didn't just whisk itself out of thin air and manage to get interviews with so many people critical to the case.

[The Magistrate]

29. People Do These Things On Speculation All The Time, Sir

So far, there is no evidence beyond the producer's claims....

[rman]

105. Actually the docu presents evidence not claimed by the producer,

but by the people being interviewed.
Of course only a legal investigation could have verified that evidence. The airing of the docu could have caused a legal investigation.

[The Magistrate]

173. For The Circumstances Of Its Preparation, And Failure To Air, Sir

We have only the producer's word, and that is all my comments addressed. Its content is a seperate matter....

[H2O Man]

33. It is important to remember

that many people without an axis 1 mental illness, such as paranoid schizophrenia, can and do have strange tales to tell. I worked for decades in a mental health clinic, and I can remember a number of staff meetings where we discussed cases of people who reported being abducted by aliens. It wasn't as important to me if the staff did or did not believe in UFOs. I was more concerned with looking at any patterns involved.

The first and most obvious was that a number of people who described in general terms an experience of being abducted and having micro-chips inserted into their brains to control their thoughts, tended to have psychotic disorders, and to have a recent increase in symptoms of their illness connected to recent abuse of "street drugs."

A second group tended to be people who did not suffer from a major mental illness, but who had apparently had some experience(s) that were remarkably similar to being sexually abused by a adult. They reported things that sounded almost exactly the same as what occures to a child who wakes up from a deep sleep, to find themselves being victimized by a trusted adult. Does this gross violation of trust tend to force the child to process the experience in terms of an alien abduction?

There can obviously be many variations of these two examples. I think that it is possible to say that neither group was likely abducted by aliens without saying, "They are fucking nuts!" I would hope that we can have compassion for people who undergo the harshest of human experiences.

At the same time, I do not think it is good science to base theories on UFOs based upon the type of reports that are better explained in far more likely terms.

[KingoftheJungle]

86. Read "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" and it gives the best explanation

I can vouch for it after doing DMT myself.

There was a study done even more recently (after Rick Straussman's experiements) that compared the metabolites found in the urine of normal people, schizophrenics on meds, schizophrenics without meds, and normal people who consumed Ayuhuasca, a DMT-containing brew. What they found was that the people with the higest amounts of dmt metabolites in their system were the ayuhusca drinkers (no surprise there) and the schizophrenics who didn't take their meds. Very interesting stuff.

I also want to throw out there that after many personal experiences with DMT, I am almost convinced that "aliens" on the other side are in fact real. Everyone who does DMT sees them, regards of what they have heard about DMT from others. This is based on blind faith, of course, but I would reccomend reading the book and the collection of dmt experiences at the www.erowid.com dmt experience vault.

PM me with your email and I can provide a PDF of "DMT: the Spirit Molecule"

[kk897]

153. I was interested to find out that the experiments discussed in the book

were in fact partially funded by Masons. It's in the early part of the book, when he's describing the travails he had in getting support for doing the experiments in the first place, then later obtaining the DMT.

It's an fascinating book, and no doubt a wild experience to actually consumer DMT.

[rman]

108. Suppose it was commissioned by Discovery, what difference would it make?

Would you then not require evidence, would you then accept the claims made in the documentary as fact?

I wouldn't expect that you would. In fact i myself wouldn't.

So whether or not Discovery did or didn't commission the documentary is hardly relevant.

What matters is that Discovery figured it was good enough to air it.

What also matters is how it got canceled. In spite of your insisting that Discovery "refused" to air it, the fact is that pressure was applied to Discovery not to air it.

[rman]

102. it was good enough for discovery to want to air it, they didn't refuse,

rather they were told by people in high places not to air it .

[nascarblue]

39. Evidence?

How about the sworn testimony of two ex state senators, one current(at the time) Congressman, and two ex FBI agents?

[Nimrod]

10. Thank you for this post

Satanic ritual abuse has (and has always had) the same amount of credibility as snuff films.

This IS a disgusting world. I'm sure there ARE tiny and isolated incidents of both that have occurred. Active pedophilia is a horrible thing that is all too prevalent. But this Satanic ritual shit is just that - shit - by and large, a boogeyman implanted into our impressionable ADULT minds by Geraldo Rivera.

And yes, adults are JUST as impressionable as children. We don't believe in the Boogeyman or Santa Claus anymore - but mention Satanism, grinning baby-butchering doctors, the Homosexual Agenda (tm), or any one of a million other things and watch us snap to attention.

[Tansy_Gold]

148. Given the stories we do see reported in the news, I think there is

more likelihood that cults of "ritual christian abuse" exist, but of course to suggest that would be to risk being permanently tombstoned.

Parents who hear "God" telling them their children are evil and must be killed to prevent "Satan" from stealing their souls.

Parents who develop morbid fears of their children growing up to be sinners and kill them to save their souls.

Parents (biological, foster, or adoptive) who beat and starve and imprison their children so they will live "godly" lives.

Fundamentalist LDS patriarchs who marry fifteen and twenty young girls as soon as they reach puberty and father dozens of children on them; and who banish the young males from the towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Arizona, because they don't want the competition.

But of course if the general population is made to fear the satanists, they're less likely to look to the christians or any other acceptable religious congregation for ritual abuse.

[jdj]

152. Satan is the biggest behavior manipulation marketing tool ever invented.

Hell, anyone who grew up a christian (unless an extremely liberal xtian family), was a victim of satanic abuse.

I was abused by the idea of satan day in and day out, although I specifically remember my first nightmare ever being about Judeo-Christan God. I was scared shitless of that mofo, that's why they had to bring Jesus in, he plays the same role as Vanna White on Wheel of Fortune, makes things more appealing.

I'm pretty disturbed by this thread.

OP is attempting to make something incredibly complex appear black and white based on fear of homosexuality being linked with pedophila. I resent that, even as a gay person. I felt the link being suggested had more to do with joining prostitution with pedophilia, while the homosexuality is incidental though it may garner more attention since it seems more tragic and unacceptable when boys are victimized thusly, that in itself probably having to do with homophobia. Prostitution is about sex, and what gays and sex workers have in common is the knowlege that all sex is just sex, period, despite the protests of religion and the courts that some sex between adults is somehow more pure or holy or sanctified.

Of course, the OP headline is insulting and dangerous; it always sickens me to see an adult put their needs before the needs of a child based on the need to protect themselves from negative emotions.

Ritual abuse may or may not exist, but I'll damn well listen to what tales a child may have to tell with a more open ear than I will the hysterical denials of an adult trying to shut down a story based on the desire to protect adult gays from bad feelings. Fuck that.

[Tansy_Gold]

157. I guess I'm just really confused by all this, and it wouldn't be

the first time.


First of all, allow me to say that I have pretty deep doubts that Guckert and Gosch are one and the same. If Johnny Gosch was on the run and in hiding when he allegedly visited his mother in 1995/7/whenever, he feared for his life. What would give the guy the sudden confidence to go so hyper-public (nude pictures, soliciting gay sex, WH press briefings, etc.) in 2003? If he had the "goods" on the people who wronged him, why not use that to bring them to justice, rather than support them? And if he's trying to "bring them down," he's doing it in a very round-about and relatively ineffective way.

If there's any resemblance in the pictures, it's that they have some rather similar features. But not anything that screams, "Oh, that's him! That's him!" And there are too many details that scream just the opposite.

Second, I find the "assumption" that being sexually abused at an early age "causes" young boys to become homosexual. Has anyone ever shown any scientific, reproducible evidence to support this theory? Or is it, indeed, just an assumption based on some kind of wishful thinking? Is it an attempt to suggest that the default sexuality for the human species is heterosexual, but something must have happened to young Jim/Jeff to turn him from the righteous path, and that if only this terrible thing hadn't happened to him -- or to any gay person -- they'd be "normal"? Excuse me, but why can't homosexuality or bisexuality or just "sexuality" be the norm? Why only one kind?

Third, I think it's horrendously hypocritical that Jim/Jeff supported an anti-gay administration while at the same time attempting to profit from the same population the administration targeted with repressive policies. I never considered that anyone -- DU, the bloggers, or anyone else -- "outed" Jeff Gannon. Just because he didn't walk into the WH briefings and announce, "Hi, everyone, be sure to check out my new totally nude, totally erect pix at hotmilitarystud.com!" doesn't mean the information wasn't public. He was not a closted gay man doing everything in his power to keep a secret. The secret was out there, and he had put it out there. So I have no compunctions about anyone pointing to the obvious.

Therefore, I never had any problem with his being identified as a "gay male prostitute" because the emphasis -- at least as I read it -- was on the prostitution aspect, with the rest merely /sic/ as qualifiers. Everything about his non-Talon alter ego was anathema to the ultra right wing agenda he supported, and that hypocrisy had to be, imho, held against him and used to discredit him.

Fourthly, as fascinating as I find even the most extravagant conspiracy theory claims, I tend not to believe in them, especially when the facts have to be manipulated and made to mean the very opposite of what they appear to mean AND when the very size of the conspiracy suggests it would never hold together. The most successful conspiracies are the smallest ones.

Seeing links between Jeff Gannon and Des Moines Register editor James Gannon that prove Johnny Gosch grew up to be Jeff Gannon pushes me beyond the "willing suspension of disbelief." It's like taking "six degrees of separation" about fourteen degrees further. In that sense, I suppose we could find enough connections to "prove" that Adolph Hitler and Joseph Goebbels "planted" Gannon in the booooosh White House.

Do I think Karl Rove has something to do with all this? Yeah, probably. Do I think there might be a tangential connection between the elder and younger booooooshes and a child porn/sex ring? Hmmm, maybe. Do I think it's possible that booooosh himself is a gay man in denial? Yeah, I think it's possible, but probably not probable /sic/.

Do I think the boooooosh administration is unspeakably evil, in a biblical sense (and I'm an atheist) and that Gannon was somehow used to further an unspeakably evil agenda? You bet your sweet bippy.

I want direct ties between Gannon and Rove, not forty-nine degrees of ancient separation. The speculation is fun, but the route has got a lot of red herrings and debunked assumptions in it. Let's look for something newer, closer to home.

For instance, does anyone know when/if either Ari Fleischer or Scott McClellan first called on Jeff Gannon using the name "Jeff"? How did they know to call him "Jeff" if his name was "James" on his ID? Was any other reporter ever addressed by a psuedonym by either Fleischer or McClellan? Did Gannon ever identify himself on any of the prostitution sites as "Jeff Gannon," and if so, when? On what dates is it possible to state that Jeff Gannon and Karl Rove might have met?

But that's just me, and
I'm just


Tansy Gold

[jdj]

167. I think sex workers have a little bit of a different standard

about sexuality, not so rigidly defined as the (pseudo) straight people, especially sex workers addicted to narcotics.

So this is just an issue of perception.

My post wasn't about Gannon/Gosch, because that is irrevelant to whether ritualistic abuse occurs, which I would define as abuse having the scenery of religion associated. I would consider santeria ritual abuse of children because of the animal sacrifice.

I may be different in that I personally know someone who was a victim of ritualized child abuse, who was given an inverted pentagram tattoo as a child, and who now is and will always be MPD.

It may be hard for people like the OP that didn't grow up in the insanity of fundamentalism to understand that ritual abuse could actually happen, but having spent a good part of my life surrounded by religious nuts I can say that it's just the flip side of the coin of orthodox christianity.

I am reacting to this thread in a general way and again I'll state it is offensive to me for anyone to try to deny the existence of any child abuse to spare the feelings of gay people, of whom I am one. That is not a good reason.

[REP]

13. Next You'll Tell Us That Sarah Good and Rebecca Nurse Were Innocent

Or try to explain away everything by saying that Good was a destitute woman cheated out of her inheritence and Nurse was a deaf old woman, but what do you saw about the dead cows and the dreams?

[Raksha]

17. I'm very glad you posted this.

I too have spent countless hours (more than I want to think about) over the past few days lurking on the three "New Wrinkle" threads and following up some of the links. While a great deal of it is provocative and possibly even true, it's the allegations "satanic ritual abuse" that send up red flags for me, especially when I see Ted Gunderson cited as an authority.

I remember the McMartin preschool case very well because it was the longest-running trial in California history until the O.J. trial. NONE of Ted Gunderson's allegations were ever proved. He kept insisting that there were secret tunnels beneath the preschool where children were taken and sexually abused in "satanic rituals." But these tunnels were never found, not even when the building was demolished a few years after the trial.

I haven't Googled this yet, but I seem to remember that Gunderson was (and probably still is) a fundamentalist Christian who tried to connect "satanic ritual abuse" with the kind of anti-Masonic, anti-New Age conspiracy stuff that is typical of the Religious Right. So I find it VERY disturbing to see a liberal discussion board giving it so much credibility.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dookus]

22. You're quite good

at posting links and one-liners.

But would you dare to actually compose a few sentences to explain and defend your position?

I have made a declaration - Satanic ritual abuse is a discredited phenomenon.

You are free to provide contradictory evidence for us to discuss, but silly one-liners and URLs are insufficient to the task.

[norml]

37. There have been many crazy evil crimes committed by many crazy evil

people with many crazy evil beliefs. Whatever superstitions they believed, or rituals they practiced, it is their crimes that they are to be held accountable for. There's a guy on death row named Michael Ryan who had a cult in Rulo Nebraska. He took men's wives, married those men to farm animal, and then skinned one man alive, all in the name of his own made up religion. Ritual Satanic Abuse, as it was seen on daytime TV, may be a discredited phenomenon, however Ritual Satanic Abuse, Ritual Christianic Abuse, or just plain Ritual Abuse, without any apparent religious aspect, can be found in the case files of many crimes. But that's not really what my posts on The Franklin Cover Up have been about. This thread of your's is about Ritual Satanic abuse, and to me that's just a distraction. Maybe it's meant to be a distraction to draw attention away from real crimes, and maybe that's why some criminals, and criminal gangs, throw it in, to distract. It's the real crimes of which I want to raise awareness, and to encourage further investigation of. As for any mumbo jumbo that may have been involved, I couldn't care less about that. Mumbo jumbo isn't a crime, robbery, kidnapping, prostitution, and murder are.

[nascarblue]

41. Drop the word satanic all together

How can you say you ritual abuses are a "discredited phenomenen"? Again I ask, what would you call the Skull and Bones rituals? What would you call the Bohemian Grove rituals? Many who freak out at guys in robes chanting weird shit would call this satanic. I wouldnt, but then again, I saw the giant Owl with my own eyes and according to Christianity, this is idol worship and the work of the devil. So I imagine that is why many associate it with "satanic". It still doesn't "discredit" the long list of proven GOP pedophiles and hypocrical closeted gays...http://www.armchairsubversive.com

[BuyingThyme]

99. Yes, satanic cults as described DEFINITELY exist...

The only question is to the use of the word "satanic."

[jdj]

150. I have a friend who was victimized thusly.

She is mentally disturbed, MPD.

but in her case she had a tattoo on her hand of some symbol which she eventually had removed, now has a scar.

In her persona that I know she is sweet and loving. But she will probably always be mentally ill. ( to clarify, in her dominant persona which is very sane I absolutely believe her stories of satanic or ritual abuse.)

This "satanic" business is just refugees from xtianity trying to deal with the abusive paradigm of xtianity and child abuse. Satanism is what they call it, but that is symbolic and derivative, it truthfully is just a branch of xtianity like methodist or episcopalian.

When practiced by adults in a non-family situation, though called Satanism or the Church of Satan, that really to me sounds more like paganism.

For the most part in a secretive family environment it is deranged xtians acting out of repetition compulsion their own abuse on their children and trying to resolve internal conflicts within their religion.

[H2O Man]

21. Interesting thread.

I would remind people that at this point, we do not know that Gannon was a prostitute. All we know is that he posted information on the web that makes it appear that he was involved in these activities.

Generally, when someone is caught in the glare of public atention, it is a matter of but a day or two before the media is able to report extensively on their background. At this point, a couple weeks into the controverst regarding Gannon, about all we know about him is the information he posted on the web.

People can believe it on face value. People can also come up with conclusions based on information that has no foundation in this case. Or people can withhold judgement, and give rational consideration to some of the more realistic options.

[The Magistrate]

25. Damned Few People, Sir

Are more open to rational consideration of realistic options than me....

[H2O Man]

26. Well, yes!

I seem to recall that!

I think that we had a little fun some time back, when a fellow was misrepresenting who he actually was. I believe that incident showed the value of not accepting anything on face value.

When I read some of the posts on DU in the past week, it makes me wonder if people really understand what the US Constitution is, and how it is intended to apply to them in their individual daily lives? We are not supposed to accept anything our government, in all of its manifest forms, tells us to be either a fact or a truth. Not a word that drips from their lips or pen should escape close examination.

The "media" has come to be accepted, in many instances, as a fourth estate of the government. And in many, many ways, this is true. Thus, when the news media "reports" -- or fails to report -- on a person who blurs the lines between journalist and paid advocate for the administration, we have twice as much reason to suspect anything and everything being said by or about that person.

I think that the chances that Gannon is a common street-walker who took a wrong turn andended up in the White House press corpse are highly unlikely. The thought that he is thus likely to be a kidnap-victim programed by a devil-cult to worship Bush is not much more realistic, in my opinion. I think it may be more probable that Gannon fits into an established pattern of manipulation, that includes a wide range of forged documents and hired guns. The Swift Boat Liars and the "security forces" hired by the private contactors who are doing the administration's bidding at home and abroad tend to have similar backgrounds .... and I think that is an option worthy of consideration.

[The Magistrate]

28. It Is Indeed, Sir

He was clearly put in place to do for Republican propaganda what a crooked banker does for a cocaine smuggler's funds; give them an air of legitimacy if no one looks too closely. Serious investigation would focus on how and when he came into that fold. There is a possibility that his "escort" activities were a species of honey-trap, but that is not a necessary supposition: some people are kinky, and act out their fantasies. It does seem to me quite possible that his particular kink had something to do with his attachment to the Republican apparatus; it seems likely to me that whoever sponsored him in was a client, or otherwise involved as a "worshipper"....

[WoodrowFan]

30. thank you for the link Dookus

Dookus, thanks for the link. I'll make sure I bookmark the Skeptic's Dictionary.

I missed the threads you spoke about, but the 9-11 and Tsunami threads pretty much destroyed my faith that irrationality and gullibility resides solely on the right.

[Walt Starr]

31. I had stayed away from the really outlandish threads

for the very reason that the premises were based upon false assumptions.

Thanks dookus!

[Domitan]

34. So are these girls liars or delusional?

Mrs. Julie Walters, now a housewife in the Midwest, confirmed that in 1986 she had interviewed the alleged child prostitute, Lisa, who told her about Mr. Bush. Lisa and her sister Tracey were temporarily living at the time in the home of Kathleen Sorenson, another foster parent.

Mrs. Walters explained that at first she was very surprised. But Lisa, who came from a very underprivileged background with no knowledge of political affairs, gave minute details of her attendance at political meetings around the country.

From Julie Walters' 50-page handwritten report:

3/25/86. Met with Kathleen and Lisa for about 2 hours in Blair questioning Lisa for more details about sexual abuse.... Lisa admitted to being used as a prostitute by Larry King when she was on trips with his family. She started going on trips when she was in 10th grade. Besides herself and Larry there was also Mrs. King, their son, Prince, and 2-3 other couples. They traveled in Larry's private plane, Lisa said that at these trip parties, which Larry hosted, she sat naked ``looking pretty and innocent'' and guests could engage in any sexual activity they wanted (but penetration was not allowed) with her.... Lisa said she first met V.P. George Bush at the Republican Convention (that Larry King sang the national anthem at) and saw him again at a Washington, D.C. party that Larry hosted. At that party, Lisa saw no women (``make-up was perfect--you had to check their legs to make sure they weren't a woman''). (1)

She indicates that she set at a table at the party while wearing nothing but a negligee. She stated that George Bush saw her on the table. She stated she saw George Bush pay King money, and that Bush left the party with a nineteen year old black boy named Brent. Lisa said the party George Bush attended was in Chicago in September or October 1984. According to the Chicago Tribune of October 31, 1984, Bush was in Illinois campaigning for congressional candidates at the end of October.

Lisa added more details on the Chicago trip, and told why she was sure it was George Bush she had seen. According to a May 8, 1989 report by investigator Jerry Lowe, ``Eulice indicated that she recognized George Bush as coming to the party and that Bush had two large white males with him. Eulice indicated Bush came to the party approximately 45 minutes after it started and that he was greeted by Larry King. Eulice indicated that she knew George Bush due to the fact that he had been in political campaigns and also she had observed a picture of Bush with Larry King at Larry King's house in Omaha.''

There is no question that Lisa and Tracey Webb were abused in the way they claimed. But, in keeping with the alleged pattern of coverup, a Washington County, Nebraska judge in December 1990 dismissed all charges against their abusers, Jarrett and Barbara Webb. The judge ignored presented testimony of the 1986 report by Boys Town official Julie Walters. The report stated: ``Lisa was given four polygraph tests administered by a state trooper at the State Patrol office on Center Street in Omaha. The state trooper, after Lisa's testing was completed, told he tried to `break Lisa down,' but he was convinced she was telling the truth.''(2)


sources:
1. Report, written on March 25, 1986 by Julie Walters and authenticated by her in an interview in 1990.

2. Report, early 1989, compiled by Jerry Lowe, the first investigator for the Franklin Committee of the Nebraska State Senate.


-----------------------------

Bear in mind that I do not see any resemblance between the Gosch boy and Gannon, and have no logical reason to connect Gannon personally to the 1989 pedophile scandal. However, I just want to point out that there have been serious allegations about certain rich and powerful people (including Bush Sr) exploiting the young for their own gain and pleasure. These have been investigated and plenty of coverups have happened, which is sadly common in cases of child molestation. Speaking from experience and observations, I know this to be too common.

[The Magistrate]

38. It Is Possible, Sir

The second-hand statement that minute details were given is not worth much in itself. The details themselves are not available, nor is there any reason to believe the person impressed by them had much knowledge against which to weigh them. Elaborate fantasy lives are not uncommon among children in such unfortunate circumstances; it is a common coping mechanism in intolerable situations. Polygraph examination is worth little: no court recognizes them, and persons who sincerely believe they are telling the truth, even if they are not, will tend to pass with flying colors. This account presents no evidence from the other side; there may have been many reasons a judge viewed these materials and accounts as unreliable, besides the belief of some that a cover-up was commanded.

[Domitan]

43. Mayhaps

but these destitute girls must have been a hell of savant political observers to recognize and name the individuals in the said investigation. Also, what I find interesting is that there was at least one individual charged (Lawrence King) here. Therefore, this case was not utterly dismissed as delusional. I agree that there's a lot we don't know here. While I think discourse like this is invaluable to keep debators and observers honest, I think that too many people are dismissive of the nature of evil that can occur on institutional levels.
Overreaching hysteria without substance does not serve us well, and neither does naive cynicism.

I'm a member of a minority group that has been one of the favourite targets for child abusers. There have been many many years of coverups in my area (and many other areas) and dismissals before one person of prominence slipped up in his stupidity so that it could no longer be ignored. This person, fortunately, was charged and jailed. On an interesting sidenote, this perpetrator's superior who was not charged with anything had a very eye-widening scenario, reminiscent of a low-brow level of Eyes Wide Shut (the secret party scene). This person presented himself as an upstanding citizen in our society, exuding power, wealth, righteousness, and class. The majority of local society oblivious to his astounding hypocrisy in how he treated us (not in terms of sexual abuse, no...but in terms of operating a system to make us second-class citizens). Not only that, he had a posh private party one time in which he gathered people of prominence in our area. At one point after a number of drinks, the group started to strip and leap into the pool in drunken orgies. Now this is not a group of wild teenagers or overworked college students looking for a monster release, this was a group of "upstanding citizens" with considerable power over others. It's not the horny nature of the beast that's the issue here, but the sheer hypocrisy and corruption of it all. Bottom line: it's much easier for the rich and powerful to get away with shit for the most part. Often times, the victims are not heard and easily dismissed. Yes, we should be vigilant against witch-hunts, but we should also be vigilant against careless dismissals.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Just Me]

35. I took a peek, saw the thread going over the conspiracy cliff,...

,...and avoided it altogether.

The whole discussion seemed to me to bring on paranoia and divert attention from the substantive issues concerning Gannon/Guckert.

:shrug:

I've ventured into conspiratorial waters before because some certainly have a bit more evidence for support. But, when you start relying on paranoid schizophrenics and multiple personality types for your "source", well, what can I way?

[Minstrel Boy]

40. Unfortunately, it's not. It's a very black op for mind control.

But then, you don't think that exists, either.

And a funny thing about the organization whose purpose it is to call it a hoax, the False Memory Foundation: it was founded by CIA contractors who had conducted mind control research.

Dr Martin Orne, for instance. Decades earlier, he was a frequent recipient of grants from the Human Ecology Society, which was a "CIA-controlled funding mechanism for studies and experiments in the behavioral sciences." An MK-ULTRA official tells John Marks, in his 1979 The Search for the Manchurian Candidate, "We could go to Orne anytime and say, 'Okay, here is a situation and here is a kind of guy. What would you expect we might be able to achieve if we could hypnotize him?' Through his massive knowledge, he could speculate and advise."

In Psychic Dictatorship in the USA, Alex Constantine writes:

The voluminous files of John Marks in Washington, D.C. (139 boxes obtained under FOIA, to be exact, two-fifths of which document CIA interest in the occult) include an Agency report itemizing a $30,000 grant to Orne from Human Ecology, and another $30,000 from Boston's Scientific Engineering Institute (SEI) - another CIA funding cover, founded by Edwin Land of the Polaroid Corporation (and supervision of the U-2 spy plane escapades). This was the year that the CIA's Office of Research and Development (ORD) geared up a study of parapsychology and the occult. The investigation, dubbed Project OFTEN-CHICKWIT, gave rise to the establishment of a social "laboratory" by SEI scientists at the University of South Carolina - a college class in black witchcraft, demonology and voodoo.

So what should we make of the fact that Dr Martin Orne, the CIA's "go to" guy on mind control, went on to become a founding member of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation? The primary purpose of which, writes Constantine, "is the castigation of survivors and therapists for fabricating accusations of ritual abuse"?

Ritual abuse mind control survivor Claudia Mullen, and others, testified before the 1995 Presidential Commission on Radiation Experiments. Ms Mullen's therapist, Dr Valerie Wolf, also testified:

In preparation for my testimony at these hearings, I called nearly 40 therapists across the country to find out what they knew about the link between radiation and mind control and to get what other therapists were seeing in clients who had been used in mind control experiments.
...
Generally, it appears that therapists across the country are finding clients who have been subjected to mind control techniques. The consistency of their stories about the purpose of the mind control and torture techniques such as electric shock, use of hallucinogens, sensory deprivation, spinning, hypnosis, dislocation of limbs and sexual abuse is remarkable. There is almost nothing published on this aspect of mind control used with children and these clients come from all over the country, having had no contact with each other.
...
These clients have named the same people, particularly a Dr. Greene. I had heard Dr. Greene's name for several years associated with clients' reports of childhood torture, mind control techniques and childhood sexual abuse. One of my clients, who had seen him with a name tag, identified him as Dr. L. Wilson Greene. I made inquiries and to my surprise found out that a person with this same name was the Scientific Director of the Chemical and Radiological Laboratories at the Army Chemical Center and that he was engaged in doing research for the Army and the CIA.

It needs to be made clear that these clients have remembered these names and events spontaneously with free recall and without the use of any memory retrieval techniques such as hypnosis. As much as possible, we have tried to verify the memories. I have sent information from one of my clients to Alan Schefflin, Professor of Law at Santa Clara University Law School. He has been able to confirm that the information that she has supplied is absolutely true and that her memories could not have been derived from any published source. This client simply came into my office one day with MKULTRA written on a piece of paper after about 9 months of therapy. Another client's memories about the CIA connection to Dr. Greene appeared spontaneously several months ago. She has memories of being exposed to radiation. I had never mentioned anything about government research or the CIA to either of them prior to the time that their memories emerged spontaneously.

There's the lecture "Hypnosis in Multiple Personality Disorder: Ritual Abuse" by Dr D Corydon Hammond, President of the American Society of Clinical Hypnosis, delivered at the Fourth Annual Eastern Regional Conference on Abuse and Multiple Personality in 1992. It's come to be known as the "Greenbaum Speech". The Psychiatric Institute of Washington, sponsor of the event, still makes available tapes and transcripts of the other sessions. Yet not of this one:

When you start to find the same highly esoteric information in different states and different countries, from Florida to California, you start to get an idea that there's something going on that is very large, very well coordinated, with a great deal of communication and sytematicness to what's happening. So I have gone from someone kind of neutral and not knowing what to think about it all to someone who clearly believes ritual abuse is real and that the people who say it isn't are either naive like people who didn't want to believe the Holocaust or -- they're dirty.
...
Let's suppose that this whole front row here are multiples and that she has an alter named Helen and she has one named Mary, she has one named Gertrude, she has one named Elizabeth, and she has one named Monica. Every one of those alters may have put on it a program, perhaps designated alpha-zero-zero-nine a Cult person could say, "Alpha-zero-zero-nine" or make some kind of hand gesture to indicate this and get the same part out in any one of them even though they had different names that they may be known by to you. Alphas appear to represent general programming, the first kind of things put in. Betas appear to be sexual programs. For example, how to perform oral sex in a certain way, how to perform sex in rituals, having to do with producing child pornography, directing child pornography, prostitution. Deltas are killers trained in how to kill in ceremonies. There'll also be some self-harm stuff mixed in with that, assassination and killing. Thetas are called psychic killers.

You know, I had never in my life heard those two terms paired together. I'd never heard the words "psychic killers" put together, but when you have people in different states, including therapists inquiring and asking, "What is Theta," and patients say to them, "Psychic killers," it tends to make one a believer that certain things are very systematic and very widespread.
...
I remember one therapist who'd been with me in several hypnosis workshops and consulted with me about a crisis MPD situation. I told her to inquire about Alpha, Beta, Delta, Theta. She did. She got back to me saying, "Yeah, I got an indication it's there. What is it?" I said, "I'm not going to tell you. Go back and inquire about some of this." We set an appointment for a week or so hence. She got back with me and said, "I asked what Theta was and she said, 'psychic killers.' I asked her what Delta was and she said 'killers.'" Okay. So I told her about some of this stuff for a two-hour consult. She called back and she said, "This seemed too fantastic. I heard this and I thought, 'Has Cory been working too hard?'" she said, I'm embarrassed to admit it, but she said, "I held you in high professional regard, but this just sounded so off in the twilight zone that I really thought, 'Is he having a nervous breakdown or something?'" She said, "But I respected you enough to ask about this."


And ritual abuse isn't ancient history:

From Sunday's Toledo Blade:

Dark allegations arise amid probe of nun's slaying
Authorities expand investigation to claims of ritualistic sex abuse

For Toledo police, it was a rare assignment: Search an abandoned house on the edge of a cornfield in western Lucas County where people reportedly took part in ritual abuse ceremonies.
...
No longer was the probe focusing solely on the man accused of killing Sister Margaret Ann Pahl, but was expanding into a new direction: accusations that children were molested and raped by priests in ritual services.
...
The investigation started with the details of the crime scene: an aging nun found strangled and repeatedly stabbed in the sacristy of the hospital chapel, her body posed to look like she was sexually assaulted.

But now, deeper issues have surfaced over accusations of sexual abuse of children in churches and schools by priests and lay members beginning in the late 1960s.

[bobthedrummer]

53. Consider the fact that CIA psychiatrists, like Dr. Louis "Jolly" West

formed an organization dedicated to opposition to SRA cases, which are a fact.

Btw, the CIA was forced to disclose some old MK ULTRA (mind control) operational files after an investigative journalist filed a FOIA request.
http://www.rcfp.org/news/2002/0819kellyv.html

Realistically, there is strong linkage between the two subjects of mind control and ritualistic abuse in law enforcement and human services in America today-this despite organized "debunking" attempts at censorship and/or disinformation.

Cults of all types are real, some of them are criminal, they are highly organized, the guy that took over the Church of Satan, Michael Aquino, came out of PSY-OPS and US military intelligence.

[Minstrel Boy]

56. Jolly West was a "fixer" for the Agency.

He diagnosed Jack Ruby, after he'd killed Oswald, as in a "paranoid state manifested by delusions." Why? Because Ruby was insisting he was a pawn of a greater, far-right conspiracy. Of course, the man had to be crazy!

[bobthedrummer]

58. Wasn't he also a consultant in RFK's assassin's "therapy"?

Sirhan Sirhan.

[H2O Man]

64. When?

Do you mean pre-trial?

[bobthedrummer]

65. I'll have to check it out later, West was a "consultant" or "expert

witness" on quite a few high profile cases as a CIA asset.

[H2O Man]

73. I do not

remember seeing his name associated with the case. I just looked through a book by one of the defense team, that focuses on the psychiatric issues involved. I'll look through other books to see if I can find him mentioned.

[Solly Mack]

162. Aquino founded the Temple of Set .

some members of the Church of Satan joined in with Aquino and his new group..The Temple of Set. Aquino was high priest or whatever in the CoS before he started his own group. The CoS wasn't exactly in keeping with Aquino's thinking. LaVey's church was more into mocking Christians and making money off people...Aquino was looking for something more...

You don't have to believe me...google it. :)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

44. This is what caused the tsunami as well but you're too blind to see it!

:eyes:

Come on people - do you see how silly you sound when you go on about this crap?

[WoodrowFan]

45. no

they don't, that's the problem.

[disillusioned1]

46. Here are some statistics

How many missing children are there?

Answer: The problem of missing children is complex and multifaceted. There are different types of missing children including family abductions; endangered runaways; nonfamily abductions; and lost, injured, or otherwise missing children. The best national estimates for the number of missing children are from incidence studies conducted by the U.S. Department of Justice's Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention.

To date two such studies have been completed. The first National Incidence Studies of Missing, Abducted, Runaway, and Thrownaway Children (NISMART-1) was released in 1990, and the second, known as NISMART-2, was released in October 2002. According to NISMART-2 research, which studied the year 1999, an estimated 797,500 children were reported missing; 58,200 children were abducted by nonfamily members; 115 children were the victims of the most serious, long-term nonfamily abductions called "stereotypical kidnappings"; and 203,900 children were the victims of family abductions.

http://www.missingkids.org/missingkids/servlet/PageServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&PageId=242#0

Let's do the math:

797,500 children reported missing in 1999
58,200 abducted by non family members
115 long term non family abductions

739,185 "other" abductions and/or runaways

739,185 missing children in 1999. The bulk of these children aren't being murdered, as we don't find 700,000 dead bodies of children every year. So...where are they? These missing children are SOMEWHERE.

[The Magistrate]

48. One Fact, Ma'am

That is probably available but left out of this summary, is the disposition of the reports of missing children, that were not determined to be abducted. In the great majority of cases, they do not remain missing, though they may not return home, particularly if they are older teen-agers.

[H2O Man]

49. That's correct, Your Honor!

"Reported missing" does not equate with being kidnapped or murdered. It is simply the (estimated) number of kids reported as "missing." There are many, many reasons that kids who are reported as missing do not fall into the "worst case" scenarios listed on here. In decades of social work, I can think of dozens of "missing children" reports, and not a single one that involved a kidnapping, a cult, or a murder. We need to use a little common sense.

[The Magistrate]

51. Basic Arithmetic Helps, Too, Sir

There are a little over four million births a year, and these figures, if taken at face value, would require acceptance that roughly every sixth child in the country will disappear permanently. That could never fail to be noticed: there would be a dozen tales of it on every block, and in every littel town.

[H2O Man]

52. Thank goodness

that I only have four children ..... unless I actually had six, and two are now missing, but I simply can't remember.

[woo me with science]

66. obviously

you are repressing the memory of those children. maybe because they were the spawn of satan, conceived during a cult ritual. do you remember eating or drinking anything strange?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

106. Well, Portland, Oregon alone has between 1,000-1200

youth and children under 21 living on the streets and/or in the underground economy (drug dealing, prostitution, theft rings) at any one time.

Muliply that by all the cities of Portland's size or larger, and you have accounted for a large number of the 700,000.

[ultraist]

127. 115 long term non family abductions

The other abducted children are with their parents who either lost custody or are mothers who are victims of domestic violence and are in hiding!

115 is the number of actual MISSING that are NON family abductions.

Don't start creating hysteria by twisting numbers of NON family abductions. Our children in this country are NOT being stolen in mass and used for sex slaves.

[bobthedrummer]

129. 1 in 10 of all US schoolkids are being molested at school

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1263844,00.html

[woo me with science]

188. oh this study

First of all, this study has absolutely nothing to do with the myths of satanic ritual abuse and government-sponsored child sex slave factories.

But since you bring it up, this headline is completely misleading anyway. The definition of "molestation" in this study is too wide for anyone to draw conclusions about what is actually happening. The authors have lumped in molestation and rape with exposure to an inappropriate joke on the school bus. And no, I am not saying that kids should be subjected to sexual jokes on the school bus. But when you say ten percent of kids are "molested" at school, people are going to assume you mean something a lot more sinister than a dirty joke.

It is statistics like these that make people suspect an agenda, rather than good science. Twisting the facts like this to create alarm only trivializes real molestation and abuse.

[Tansy_Gold]

164. "Moral Panic" about mising children

I have spent a good part of the day looking unsuccessfully for a hand-out from one of my classes a few years ago about how the "myth" of hundreds of thousands of "abducted" children was created and why. Finally, I went googling and found an article that focuses on crime myths in general.

http://www.policestudies.eku.edu/POTTER/Module2.htm

One paragraph addresses the missing child myth:

/snip/

In the early 1980s the media and the government helped create a panic over the issue of child abduction. It was estimated that somewhere between 1.5 and 2.5 million children were abducted from their homes every year. Of those children 50,000 would never be heard from again, presumably the victims of homicides. Pictures of "missing children" appeared on milk cartons, billboards, in newspapers and on television. Children and parents were cautioned against contacts with strangers. The police in one town even wanted to etch identification numbers on school children's teeth so their bodies would be easier to identify (Dunn, 1994: 24). But the child abduction epidemic never happened. About 95% of those missing children were runaways, most of whom were home within 48 hours, or children abducted by a parent in a custody dispute. The fact is there are no more than 50 to 150 stranger child abductions a year in the United States (Kappeler, Blumberg, and Potter, 1996).

/end snip/



I wish I could find the other article because it contained information on where the stats came from. IIRC, any time a parent calls the police and screams "OMIGAWD, I CAN'T FIND MY CHILD!" a report is filed. When the kid shows up twenty minutes later and says, "Hey, Mom, I know you told me not to go in Billy's house and stay outside where you can see me, but I really had to go to the bathroom. . . . . " just as the squad car pulls into the driveway, the case is marked "child returned" but it's retained as a "missing child" file, just in case the parent pulls some kind of trick. And there are parents who panic like this. My mother did it when my brother disappeared for a few minutes at age 6 (he was on the other side of the neighbor's garage), and I did it when my son was 16 and didn't come home from a football game until 3 a.m.!

And as for the homeless kids living on the streets, many of them are never reported as missing. Their parents just write them off. I had two friends in the 90s who had "missing" sons that were not listed as abducted or run-aways or kidnapped by non-custodial parents. In one case, the boy had been in trouble for years and finally, at 16, left home and never made any attempt to contact his mother. She had no idea ten years later if he was alive or dead, but he was not among the "missing" statistics, either.

In the other case, the boy had left home at 17, telling his mother he couldn't live there any more. She knew he had friends in the drug scene in LA and it would have been pointless to send the cops to bring him home. She had had him through various therapy situations and nothing worked. He couldn't kick the drug habit and he couldn't get out of the gay prostitution. Through one or the other, he became HIV positive, and he was eventually killed in a street fight over drugs.

I'm not going to address the parenting skills of these two mothers or the boys' absent fathers. But when it comes to suggesting that there are 1000 homeless kids on the streets of Portland and this leads to accepting the idea of some 700,000 kids abducted each year ---- no way.

If there were this many abducted kids, it would be a commonplace thing. Everyone would know someone who had been abducted, or whose child or sibling or relative or school chum had been abducted. But it's not commonplace,which is why the stories of actual abduction make the news. They're rare.

[WoodrowFan]

182. this happened to my neighbor

their 5 yo girl was playing in her front yard, then 30 seconds later she was gone. The police were called, neighbors (myself included) went looking all through the neighborhood. After a couple hours we found her, sound asleep in her closet playing "camping." She had gone inside to play, didn't hear her Mom calling, and fell asleep in the back of her big walk-in closet with a stuffed animal. While not all such cases end up as happily she was reported as a "missing child"

[woo me with science]

189. Thank you. nt

[kk897]

47. well, it's not all based on Bonacci

What do you do with the Belgium, DynCorp, Portugal, and France cases (among many others), for instance? Bonacci's got nothing to do with those.

And what do you do when the discreditors are themselves discredited?

I can't draw any solid conclusions at this point, myself. It seems like there is evidence of SRA, and it seems like there have been problems within the SRA community. No doubt some people who were molested as children come to believe they were involved with SRA, too, whether or not they, in fact, were.

It's good to be skeptical to a point, but it's also good to keep your mind open to possibilities. An example of skepticism gone wrong: Holocaust deniers. An example of something the public did not believe could possibly be true: the US carrying out "experiments" on poor Black men who had syphillis.

It's just not that easy for me to state facts without doing a heck of a lot of research on a subject, and sometimes not even then. And by research, I mean reading materials produced by people with different perspectives on the issue and trying to evaluate what they're saying and offering as evidence.

And then I guess it comes down to what you accept as evidence. Studies, surveys, statistics can all be biased. Nowadays, photos can be photoshopped. Underlying assumptions of scientific analysis aren't always apparent to laymen. News reports are slanted. It's tough in the modern age to determine what's "true."

I wish I had your confidence that SRA is BS. I'd rather live in a world where it is BS. But since I've read a lot about it, including debunking and debunking of debunkers, I can't be sure one way or another. Therefore I will not dismiss the possibility, and because the possibility is so heinous, I will continue to monitor developments in the study of SRA to try to come to a firmer conclusion.

[superconnected]

54. I remember reporting a movie maker on internet to the cops for having

snuff films on his site. He had a cannibal site and the idea was they killed and ate women.

He immediately pulled them off so no evidence for the cops. The cops told me that snuff films didn't exist in real life.

Then I saw case after case where murders had video taped their killings including the cannibal in germany who killed his willing victim and and not only video tapped the killing, but him preparing the victim as food and eating him.

I emailed the cops the news report as it was a true story but they never responded.

Serial killer sites note that most killers document the killings - often with photos. It's also common for them to taste their victims.

[The Magistrate]

57. How Do You Know, Ma'am, They Were Real?

How do you know what you saw on that site were films of actual killings? It is very easy to make passable imitations, after all.

There are certainly instances where murderers record their killings, but these are kept for private amusement, and for obvious reasons. The risk to the killer from their circulation would be tremendous. They come to light when the person is arrested, and become evidence in the case, and so remain sequestered in official custody.

[Minstrel Boy]

62. "these are kept for private amusement"

And how do you know?

One could say the same about child pornography. The risk of circulation is tremendous. Yet they circulate.

[The Magistrate]

69. Such Killers, Sir

Are fantasists, and spend a good deal of mental effort on anticipating the next episode of realization, and on recalling the last. These things are simply aids to it, as are the souveniers of victims often kept. It is important to be convinced of the reality of what they did, that the act is no mere dream, as for so long before the doing it was, for such people.

There are differences in the mental attitude of the ritual killer and of the exhibitionist pedophile. The most important is that, while the former knows he does evil, and revels in that, the latter believes he is really in the right, and all the condemnation directed against him and what he does issues from blindness and deliberate misunderstanding. Though aware of the great danger of doing so, and operating with a degree of cunning, such persons are impelled to seek out others who will mirror this approval back at them. The result is the aggregation of a loose "affinity group" that is open to members, but almost impossible for anyone to penetrate who cannot supply the coin of admission. Electronic communication has certainly facilitated this.

[superconnected]

98. Did I say I knew they were real? I said the cannibal in Europes' video

was real and the cops here(in the USA) said snuff films didn't exist.

Of course I found out they most certianly did.

[Solon]

128. There is a difference between...

the depraved actions of an individual in the commission of a crime, and the actions of an entire group in a huge conspiracy to commit crimes. Let's put it this way, the chances of actions being discovered is inversely proportional to the amount of people involved. In other words, I can readily believe that some sick individuals will film snuff films for kicks, real or not. But I have a hard time believing that damn near entire towns of people are a bunch of Satan Worshippers who are pedophiles and sacrifice people on altars.

Sick individuals and small groups I can readily believe, but most "Satanic" groups are a bunch of kids who get a kick out of knocking down grave stones and spray painting Pentagrams on them. This is similar to the "Black Cat Adoption" urban myth that comes around every Holloween. I can readily believe that a bunch of sick motherfuckers steal cats from neighborhoods to "sacrifice" on Holloween, but I would have a hard believing that a nationwide group actually skews stats around that day on cat adoptions for the sole purpose of sacrificing them.

[Solly Mack]

55. I always think of the McMartin case whenever I hear "Satanic Rituals"

and wonder all over again just what IS the radius of a radon?

If you've seen the movie on the McMartin case, you're laughing now.

If not...let's just say I was being very scathing about "Satanic Ritual Abuse"



If people haven't see the McMartin movie, see it. Those people were railroaded, based on nothing but lies.

It's a cautionary tale.

[noonwitch]

59. There was also a case with a preschool teacher in Jersey

The Village Voice covered it. I don't remember her name, it was Kelly, I think. What was done to her was such a miscarriage of justice. The police and CPS workers put words in kids' mouths, instead of doing a good and fair investigation. The teacher was assumed guilty from day one. She eventually won her appeal, but the system had already ruined her life.

I'm sure that somewhere there have been real cases of satanic ritual abuse. But the things these kids described happening to them in both the Jersey case and the McMartin case would have physical evidence to back them up-little kids are injured from sexual assualt. They have torn vaginas, torn anus', bruised legs and buttocks. They get infections, and little girls get UTIs. Both of these cases were based on what the kids said while being interviewed.

[Minstrel Boy]

60. If you thought instead, of Marc Dutroux, you wouldn't be laughing.

Belgium's X-Files
BBC

There appears to be a steel veil drawn over the facts at the highest level and no one is prepared to expose those involved in this blatant cover-up.

...

The official answer is that a series of hysterical conspiracy theories forced investigators to search for paedophile networks, which didn't exist.

But for observers of this debacle, that's exactly what didn't happen.

Far from being investigated, leads pointing to a network seem rather to have been blocked or buried.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/correspondent/1944428.stm

Ritual abuse, pedophilia, murder, and the charge of a government cover-up
The Telegraph, August 17, 2001

Five years after the bodies of four murdered Belgian girls were discovered at houses owned by the paedophile Marc Dutroux, the father of one of them has accused the country's police and justice system of a cover-up ensuring that his trial has still not begun.

The claims by Paul Marchal, father of An Marchal, who was 17 when she disappeared in 1995, echo what many Belgians now privately believe: that Dutroux and his paedophile ring had connections with high-ranking members of the establishment in Belgium.

In a country that is becoming inured to corruption in public life, the theory of a cover-up is now increasingly accepted as the real reason why the Dutroux case has yet to come to court.

More from David McGowan:

Adding further fuel to the fire, as a Los Angeles Times report revealed, were claims by “a highly regarded children’s activist, Marie-France Botte … the Justice Ministry is sitting on a politically sensitive list of customers of pedophile videotapes.” The same report noted, “the affair has become further clouded by the discovery of a motorcycle that reportedly matches the description of one used in the 1991 assassination of prominent Belgian businessman and politician Andre Cools. Michel Bourlet, the head prosecutor on the pedophile case, meanwhile, has publicly declared that the investigation can be thoroughly pursued only without political interference. Several years ago, Bourlet was removed from the highly charged Cools case, which remains unsolved.”

A report in Time magazine alluded to murky links between the Dutroux operation and organized crime figures. Marc Verwilghen - the chief investigating magistrate on the case – stated the case more bluntly: “For me, the Dutroux affair is a question of organised crime.” Also mentioned in the Time article was the use of secret “underground tunnels,” not unlike those described by children a decade earlier at the infamous McMartin Preschool.

Outrage continued to grow as more arrests were made and evidence of high-level government and police complicity continued to emerge. One of Dutroux's accomplices, businessman Jean-Michel Nihoul, confessed to organizing an ‘orgy’ at a Belgian chateau that had been attended by government officials, a former European Commissioner, and a number of law enforcement officers. A Belgian senator noted, quite accurately, that such parties were part of a system “which operates to this day and is used to blackmail the highly placed people who take part.”

[The Magistrate]

63. The Trial Was Recently Concluded, Sir

There must be some more current and complete reports available. It was indeed a ghastly case....

[Solly Mack]

82. I don't confuse pedophiles with "Satan worship"

I worked with abused children and all charges of abuse contain similar details. Nothing earth-shattering about that. Doesn't mean Satan worship was involved...nor does it mean there was a vast network of satanic ritual abuse that connected any of the cases.

Child sex trade is real. Child pornography is real. Child abuse is real. Doesn't mean there's a mob of Satan worshipers behind it all. There is often a connection between the sex trade and pornography...for both children and adults. However, that still doesn't mean a passel of Satan worshipers were involved.


That the world has sick fucks in it who enjoy harming children is something I never laugh about. But that doesn't mean those sick fucks were Satan worshipers.

I remain very scathing of the phrase satanic ritual abuse. I will continue to be scathing of the phrase satanic ritual abuse.

People need to stop blaming a mythical creation for the ugliness of mankind.

(for example: Anton LaVey)

I don't care what a group of people call themselves, I've read LaVey...and the "Church of Satan" ain't got shit to do with pedophilia. The Church of Satan was a business..a way to make more money.Like L. Ron Hubbard, Anton LaVey fooled an entire population with his own myth and legend.

He fed people a tasty morsel of bullshit and they embraced it (even while it alarmed some) because it satisfied their need of a decidedly good and bad world. LaVey was someone people could point at and claim "See! Satan is real" (and LaVey is but one example)

Satan is a word that conjures up nightmare images for people...because they were indoctrinated to accept the concept of Satan as the personification of evil. Why would I view "satanic ritual abuse" with anything but scorn?

Mankind has for eons tried to explain why people do bad things...it doesn't require a Devil to understand that, sometimes, people just do some truly horrible shit because they are sick fucks.

I don't reject child sexual abuse as a truth...it happens. I don't reject child pornography as a truth...it happens. I don't even reject the network that can exist between the two. I reject the notion of satanic rituals, period.

[Minstrel Boy]

83. Neither do I. I think there's some confusion

about how the term "Satanic ritual abuse" is used.

It's about traumatizing young victims, not about worshipping the devil.

Read my post #40, and the CIA's study of the occult, which dovetailed with its interest in mind control.

[Solly Mack]

93. People use the term to describe what happens

to victims and they shouldn't(IMO). Maybe call it systematic or organized abuse, and drop the "satanic" and "ritual" part. Maybe calling it "satanic" is no accident & serves to alarm people, and they don't look beyond that...for what lies beneath.

I want children to be protected...but I don't want mass hysteria to harm the ability to go after child abusers. Every time there's a false accusation of sexual abuse, it makes that much harder to go after the actual sex abuse cases. Especially when the media sensationalizes the cases which prove to be false. It really does hurt the cause of protecting children.

Thanks for the pointer to your post # 40!!!

[woo me with science]

67. yeah

"sybil" came out around that time too. and thousands of people suddenly developed multiple personalities.

[bobthedrummer]

71. The deliberate creation of multiple personalities is a goal of some abuse.

Just like the theoretical orientation and political beliefs of the authors of the DSM help determine what is called a "mental illness".

[woo me with science]

the "cult"

is the school of therapy and the therapy culture that creates false memories. it is textbook. clients cut off from families and bond with other so-called "survivors." there is a whole industry to support the creation of false memories. the people who are in the cult are the people who do the therapy and the clients who come to believe lies.

[Minstrel Boy]

81. "clients have remembered these names and events spontaneously

with free recall and without the use of any memory retrieval techniques such as hypnosis"

Dr Valerie Wolf, testifying before the 1995 Presidential Commission on Radiation Experiments (from my post #40, above):

In preparation for my testimony at these hearings, I called nearly 40 therapists across the country to find out what they knew about the link between radiation and mind control and to get what other therapists were seeing in clients who had been used in mind control experiments.
...
Generally, it appears that therapists across the country are finding clients who have been subjected to mind control techniques. The consistency of their stories about the purpose of the mind control and torture techniques such as electric shock, use of hallucinogens, sensory deprivation, spinning, hypnosis, dislocation of limbs and sexual abuse is remarkable. There is almost nothing published on this aspect of mind control used with children and these clients come from all over the country, having had no contact with each other.
...
These clients have named the same people, particularly a Dr. Greene. I had heard Dr. Greene's name for several years associated with clients' reports of childhood torture, mind control techniques and childhood sexual abuse. One of my clients, who had seen him with a name tag, identified him as Dr. L. Wilson Greene. I made inquiries and to my surprise found out that a person with this same name was the Scientific Director of the Chemical and Radiological Laboratories at the Army Chemical Center and that he was engaged in doing research for the Army and the CIA.

It needs to be made clear that these clients have remembered these names and events spontaneously with free recall and without the use of any memory retrieval techniques such as hypnosis. As much as possible, we have tried to verify the memories. I have sent information from one of my clients to Alan Schefflin, Professor of Law at Santa Clara University Law School. He has been able to confirm that the information that she has supplied is absolutely true and that her memories could not have been derived from any published source. This client simply came into my office one day with MKULTRA written on a piece of paper after about 9 months of therapy. Another client's memories about the CIA connection to Dr. Greene appeared spontaneously several months ago. She has memories of being exposed to radiation. I had never mentioned anything about government research or the CIA to either of them prior to the time that their memories emerged spontaneously.

[The Magistrate]

85. Dr. Wolf, Sir

Is a mere Master of Social Work. Persons with such a credential generally refer serious cases to an Md. psychiatrist, recognizing certain limits to their expertise.

[woo me with science]

88. yes, and professional schools of psychology

are part of the problem too. professional schools are churning out "therapists" with no training in research or methodology. they promote this crap and inflict it on their patients.

[Minstrel Boy]

89. Then you should appreciate the credentials of Dr D Corydon Hammond.

Credits to his name include:

B.S. M.S. Ph.D (Counseling Psychology) from the University of Utah
Diplomate in Clinical Hypnosis, the American Board of Psychological Hypnosis
Diplomate in Sex Therapy, the American Board of Sexology
Clinical Supervisor and Board Examiner, American Board of Sexology
Diplomate in Marital and Sex Therapy, American Board of Family Psychology
Licensed Psychologist, Licensed Marital Therapist, Licensed Family Therapist, State of Utah
Research Associate Professor of Physical Medicine an Rehabilitation, Utah School of Medicine
Director and Founder of the Sex and Marital Therapy Clinic, University of Utah.
Adjunct Associate Professor of Educational Psychology, University of Utah Abstract
Editor, The American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis
Advising Editor and Founding Member, Editorial Board, The Ericsonian Monograph
Referee, The Journal of Abnormal Psychology
1989 Presidential Award of Merit, American Society of Clinical Hypnosis
1990 Urban Sector Award, American Society of Clinical Hypnosis
President, American Society of Clinical Hypnosis

From his lecture "Hypnosis in Multiple Personality Disorder: Ritual Abuse" by Dr D Corydon Hammond, President of the American Society of Clinical Hypnosis, delivered at the Fourth Annual Eastern Regional Conference on Abuse and Multiple Personality in 1992 (from my post #40):

When you start to find the same highly esoteric information in different states and different countries, from Florida to California, you start to get an idea that there's something going on that is very large, very well coordinated, with a great deal of communication and sytematicness to what's happening. So I have gone from someone kind of neutral and not knowing what to think about it all to someone who clearly believes ritual abuse is real and that the people who say it isn't are either naive like people who didn't want to believe the Holocaust or -- they're dirty.
...
Let's suppose that this whole front row here are multiples and that she has an alter named Helen and she has one named Mary, she has one named Gertrude, she has one named Elizabeth, and she has one named Monica. Every one of those alters may have put on it a program, perhaps designated alpha-zero-zero-nine a Cult person could say, "Alpha-zero-zero-nine" or make some kind of hand gesture to indicate this and get the same part out in any one of them even though they had different names that they may be known by to you. Alphas appear to represent general programming, the first kind of things put in. Betas appear to be sexual programs. For example, how to perform oral sex in a certain way, how to perform sex in rituals, having to do with producing child pornography, directing child pornography, prostitution. Deltas are killers trained in how to kill in ceremonies. There'll also be some self-harm stuff mixed in with that, assassination and killing. Thetas are called psychic killers.

You know, I had never in my life heard those two terms paired together. I'd never heard the words "psychic killers" put together, but when you have people in different states, including therapists inquiring and asking, "What is Theta," and patients say to them, "Psychic killers," it tends to make one a believer that certain things are very systematic and very widespread.
...
I remember one therapist who'd been with me in several hypnosis workshops and consulted with me about a crisis MPD situation. I told her to inquire about Alpha, Beta, Delta, Theta. She did. She got back to me saying, "Yeah, I got an indication it's there. What is it?" I said, "I'm not going to tell you. Go back and inquire about some of this." We set an appointment for a week or so hence. She got back with me and said, "I asked what Theta was and she said, 'psychic killers.' I asked her what Delta was and she said 'killers.'" Okay. So I told her about some of this stuff for a two-hour consult. She called back and she said, "This seemed too fantastic. I heard this and I thought, 'Has Cory been working too hard?'" she said, I'm embarrassed to admit it, but she said, "I held you in high professional regard, but this just sounded so off in the twilight zone that I really thought, 'Is he having a nervous breakdown or something?'" She said, "But I respected you enough to ask about this."

[woo me with science]

90. Corydon Hammond is a nut. nt

[bin.dare]

163. Hammond, Braun, Sacks, etc have been discredited ...

... or are you saying all that is the work of the FMSS? Then would you care to elaborate on why a court (and many "experts") don't agree with you. The following lawsuit case is real even if it comes off an FMSS cite:

http://www.illinoisfms.org/Braun.html
...
As those of you who watched the 1995 Front line show "The Search for Satan" may remember, Pat's case rapidly took on the character of the darkest of dark Gothic novels once she entered Rush.

There, using a daily program of hypnotism and high doses of medication, her therapists "recovered" her "memories": Pat's rape on a satanic altar by her father and cult members; her participation in the cannibalization of her own aborted fetuses and those of others (parts of up to 2,000 people consumed); and the abuse of her own children. Pat was supposed to have been a "high priestess" of the cult, in a national and possibly even an international conspiracy existing for many generations. And her personalities blossomed to number over 300 while she was under Braun's care. Pat certainly became Braun's star patient, whom he paraded at conferences and in the media. While all this was going on, Pat's young children (ages 4 and 5) were also hospitalized for nearly three years at Rush and sucked into the same bizarre "therapy". All in all these cases cost the insurance company $3 million dollars. In 1993, after Pat, with the help of her husband Mike, had extricated herself and her children from this nightmare and realized what had been done to her, she filed her lawsuit. By this time she had shed all but one of her 300 plus personalities.

There followed four years of arduous preparation, agonized waiting and legal maneuvering. Witnesses and experts were deposed. Those of Pat's side made up a stellar team of seven: Dr. Bennett Leventhal (University of Chicago), Paul McHugh, M.D. (Johns Hopkins), James Hudson, M.D. (Harvard University), Richard Ofshe, Ph.D. (University of California, Berkeley), Elizabeth Loftus, Ph.D. (University of Washington), William Grove, M.D. (University of Minnesota), August Piper, M.D. Only two experts were deposed on the other side. Obviously the evidence and expert testimony piled up by these depositions convinced the insurance company that its case was hopeless; otherwise it would never have agreed to such a large settlement.

Asked after her victory how she felt Pat said, "There is still a lot of work undone… I have not done fighting. I intend to pursue their licenses. I will do whatever it takes."

The next chapter of this story has already begun. On December 10, 1997 Chicago's Channel 5 in an excellent report on Pat's lawsuit, in which Pat and Dr. Almy were interviewed, revealed that Rush will be closing Braun's Dissociative Disorders unit by January 16, 1998. More wonderful news! Also the Burgus case will be featured in articles in Readers Digest and Chicago Magazine and in a segment of "Dateline" that is supposed to air this January. Nor is Pat finished with her own litigation. Cases against two other therapists are not yet concluded. And of course there are lawsuits by other former patients against the hospital and the therapists still in the wings - six of them at the moment. Unfortunately another two cases have already been settled but with gag orders.
...

[bobthedrummer]

94. She passed away several years ago, there are many clinical psychiatric

workers in human services, all cases of abuse are serious. She didn't prescibe drugs, she listened to her clients and did refer them to other professionals as needed.

[woo me with science]

87. yep, some have...

after reading, and being exposed to our popular culture and boards like DU, and friends who are already in the cult.

if you could see it from the outside, you would see how textbook the "cult" really is.

[bobthedrummer]

91. Valerie Wolf was a skeptic when she began working in this field.

She published about and became an advocate for survivors of ritual abuse.

http://www.hgsys.com/aches/mind_control.html

http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/horrors.htm

[bobthedrummer]

84. There are cults, on this we agree.

[kk897]

155. excellent point, bobthedrummer. n/t

[kk897]

154. Yes, movies based on historic fact are known to be completely reliable.

They never twist evidence or conflate events or invent composite characters or leave out important information. </sarcasm>

I've seen the film, and I agree it was MOST persuasive. I had my mind made up then, too. A couple of years later I read some information that debunked the film, though, and it made me think about it all in a new light.

[Solly Mack]

160. So what was it you read?

Did what you read say exactly where the tunnels were? Did ya read Hobbs and Summit? Stickle?

Did they ever get around to saying what the radius of a radon is precisely?


I've read case studies on McMartin as well.

Have you read The Abuse of Innocence: The McMartin Preschool Trial by
Paul and Shirley Eberle?

[kk897]

165. Hi Solly Mack...

I wish I could tell you precisely what it was I read, but honest to gosh it was a few years ago and I didn't bookmark it or anything. And certainly other reading has kept me busy in the intervening years.

I do remember that in fact the tunnels *had* been located; there was a photo and diagrams. I also remember reading that the woman who did most of the questioning of the children used very leading questions, and I read transcripts of the sessions. The upshot seemed to be that the more outrageous claims by the children had been confabulated under her guidance (although she probably didn't mean to do this). Also her credentials were called into question.

I saw persuasive evidence on both sides, so I'll forestall coming to a conclusion until I know more. I'm keeping an open mind. I must admit that I simply performed a search after seeing the movie, which, as I said, I thought was really terrific, and I just wanted more details. Then I came across this other information. This was specifically about the McMartin trial...not SRA in general.

I didn't read more about the McMartin trial in particular and instead began to read about MK ULTRA and black ops and MONARCH, etc. I've read most of the same sources that Minstrel Boy mentions, a book about a man who was (at least seemingly) wrongly accused of participating in SRA, arguments for and against recovered memories, as well as articles from the likes of "Skeptical Enquirer" and so forth. I think I've gotten a pretty good flavor of the different perspectives on SRA.

I just don't think that most movies based on historical fact can ever possibly bear up to any kind of scrutiny when given more than a cursory check. Not to knock 'em; it *was* a good film.

[woo me with science]

61. Thank you for a voice of sanity

It kills me when we have so many people begging for a return to science as a basis for policy, and then on DU we have discussions that make the tin foil hat manufacturers rich.

Satanic ritual abuse allegations are destroying my family right now. My sister swears she and I were abused in cult rituals. Until she went into therapy with a nutcase doctor, she was a functioning, intelligent, and only slightly neurotic young woman. Now she has cut off most of our family. The things she accuses our parents of would make you throw up. Her entire circle of friends now consists of fellow "survivors" who are also "remembering" cult abuse with the help of their therapists. My sister says I am in denial and need to recover. But she is the one who is sick, lost her job and family, and is drugged beyond recognition. I love her. I hate the therapist who is doing this to her. And it kills me when I see this crap on DU.

[Dookus]

120. Wow...

I'm very sorry to hear that, antfarm. It must be excruciating.

Yours is a classic example of what happens when unethical "therapists" with an agenda (or a desire for long-term clients) ply their trade. I hope your sister finds some real help soon.

[readmoreoften]

177. that is a nightmare

I am so sorry.

[woo me with science]

193. Thank you

We are trying to keep hope alive that she will come back to us. Please keep spreading the word and educating people. This kind of therapy is deadly.

[woo me with science]

192. Thanks very much

I do, too. Thank you for posting this, spreading the word, and educating people. Too many people get taken in by this garbage.

[Andy_Stephenson]

68. Can you provide evidence for this statement?

"But she is a classic paranoid schizophrenic. Her reality is not real."

and I am sure you will provide non-interent sources.

[The Magistrate]

70. Do You, Sir, Think The Balance Of Her Mind Un-Disturbed?

[Andy_Stephenson]

74. That was not the question.

I asked for evience backing up dookus' assertion that Noreen Gosch was a paranoid schizophrenic.

[The Magistrate]

78. Still, Sir

Your opinion in the matter interests me, hence my question to you. It is a matter of no great importance, merely idle curiousity.

[rman]

111. Do you think Dookus' (or scepdic's) claims require evidence?

(more then idle curiousity)

[Solon]

115. Here's some links....

http://members.shaw.ca/imaginarycrimes/howRAstarted.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_case.htm

http://www.rickross.com/reference/satanism/satanism12.html

http://www.totse.com/en/religion/satanists/cult-fbi.html

[rman]

117. I could come up with a bunch of links

supporting the claims made in that documentary that didn't get aired on Discovery.

Would it qualify as evidence?

[Solon]

123. Well then....

Please do.

[rman]

170. the question is

Would it qualify as evidence?

[bobthedrummer]

119. Here's an old DU thread on MK ULTRA that supports a lot of opinion here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=636309

[troubleinwinter]

130. This is EXACTLY

the question I wanted to pose... but wanted to complete reading the thread first.

WHAT evidence is there that Mrs. Gosch is paranoid schizophrenic? The OP should show his reliable source for this assertion.

To my recollection, Mrs. Gosch did not make accusations of "Satanic ritual abuse", but that there was an organized group of predators upon children... pedophiles and pornographers who sold children.

We KNOW that dealers of child pornography and pedophiles network with one another. We read a news article today of a group of pedophiles arrested for organizing a cruise to Mexico for the sole purpose of pedophilia.

We know that people organize trips and tours to Asia for the sole purpose of the sexual abuse of children.

While I do not buy "satanic", or even "ritual", organized child sexual abuse, forced prostitution and pornography and slavery is real.

[readmoreoften]

179. I agree with you there may well be group abuse

But this has nothing to do with Satan or Satanists or pagans and I doubt that it has to do with Michael Aquino of the Temple of Set.

There are massive amounts of abused children and they don't stem from secret cult religions. They stem from people who are (a) sociopathic or (b) religious zealots who are usually 'righteous' but then sometimes 'Satan' possesses them and 'makes them' do weird things (that they just happen to want to do.)

Just like the religious mothers stoning their kids to death and cutting off their arms. It has nothing to do with Satanists and everything to do with a demon-obsessed fundamentalist America spinning out of control.

[KittyWampus]

72. There Probably ISN'T A Satanic Cult Afoot

There probably isn't a Satanic Cult afoot.

However, that doesn't mean there aren't groups of very wealthy men who have the means to shut people up and get away with behavior not accepted either by society at large (pedophelia) or a segment of society (homosexuality).

[KittyWampus]

75. Today's LBN- Beasts of Satan band members jailed for killings

Beasts of Satan band members jailed for killings


John Hooper in Rome
Wednesday February 23, 2005
The Guardian

Two members of a heavy metal band called the Beasts of Satan were yesterday given hefty prison sentences for killings that shocked Italy and raised questions about the spread of devil-worship among young people.

A judge in the northern town of Busto Arzisio gave one of the killers a longer sentence than had been sought by the prosecution. Andrea Volpe, who was convicted of fatally wounding his former girlfriend, was given 30 years in jail - 10 more than requested.

Mariangela Pezzotta was shot in January 2004, apparently because she knew too many of the group's secrets. Prosecutors believed she may have been alive when she was buried.

A second man, Pietro Guerrieri, was sentenced to 16 years in jail after confessing, along with Volpe, to a role in an earlier double murder.

[Minstrel Boy]

76. Toledo, Feb 20: Dark allegations arise amid probe of nun's slaying

Dark allegations arise amid probe of nun's slaying
Authorities expand investigation to claims of ritualistic sex abuse

For Toledo police, it was a rare assignment: Search an abandoned house on the edge of a cornfield in western Lucas County where people reportedly took part in ritual abuse ceremonies.
...
The search of the decrepit, wood structure last year was a sign the investigation of the Rev. Gerald Robinson was moving beyond a murder case.

No longer was the probe focusing solely on the man accused of killing Sister Margaret Ann Pahl, but was expanding into a new direction: accusations that children were molested and raped by priests in ritual services.
...
Four women told detectives about being abused between the late 1960s and 1986 during cult-like ceremonies involving altars and men dressed in robes, the accusers told The Blade. "I've had nightmares about this since I was a child," said one woman, who asked not to be named. "I didn't think anyone would believe me."
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050220/NEWS08/502200352/-1/NEWS


Renowned expert assesses evidence from slaying

When nationally known forensic expert Henry Lee was hired recently to examine evidence in the murder case of the Rev. Gerald Robinson, the crime expert's first stop was the murder scene: the Mercy Hospital chapel.

He snapped photographs of the sacristy room and tested the floor with new chemical enhancement for blood remnants from the 1980 slaying. He examined the old crime scene photos and studied the letter opener believed to be the murder weapon.

While police have expanded their investigation into the death of Sister Margaret Ann Pahl by looking into allegations of ritual sex abuse, the murder case still rests largely on physical evidence, prosecutors say.
...
Police are still calling the death of the 71-year-old nun a "ritual" killing because of the circumstances surrounding the crime, including the way her body was found: lying face up with an altar cloth draped over her torso, her body posed to appear like she was sexually assaulted.
http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050220/NEWS08/502200353

[readmoreoften]

180. one sicko a worldwide conspiracy does not make n/t

[Minstrel Boy]

185. nobody says it does, but just one occurance

refutes the "hoax" broad brush.

[bobthedrummer]

77. I trust the veracity of Jon Rappoport and others knowledgable about SRA

and its relationship to mind control.
http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/mind_control/161916.html

[Solon]

92. Isn't this the same guy who wrote AIDS inc.

You know, the book that claims that HIV doesn't lead to AIDS and its some "big conspiracy" to keep secret. Hint number #1 that a conspiracy theory is bullshit, it makes no logical sense for the "conspirators" to actually conspire at all. This goes for MK-ULTRA, an atrocious program, I'm sure it lead to many deaths, suicides and homicides alike, because people break under such conditions. That certainly is enough for the CIA to try to keep secret, but failed anyways. But leading or linking it to Satanic Ritual Abuse? that's ridiculous, a media fabrication to sell papers and ratings, especially the satanic part, I mean, how much more sensationalist can you get?

[bobthedrummer]

95. Let's drop the Satanic part and just call it Ritual Abuse-it's a reality.

And ritual=method. It works. It's highly organized, and where are some of all those missing kids?

The US Satanic connection would be found in the legacy of Col. Michael Aquino imho and life experiences. He replaced the Church of Satan with his own cult/religion The Temple of Set. He ministered to members of the US Armed Forces when off duty from his work in PSY-OPS and military intelligence.

But for less inflammatory discussion let's just call the methodology used on the survivors "ritual abuse", ok?

[Solon]

96. The problem, as I see it....

is the idea that it has any connection to either the military or psy-ops. I also have a big problem with the "Highly Organized" part, usually, to be that highly organized generally means that the organization in question participates, and as far as I know, there is no evidence of that happening. Of the most famous cases from the '80s, there has been no connection established between any of the individuals to any Satanic organization. Indeed, in many of those cases, the accused were exhonerated due to lack of evidence and false accusations. Also, just as an FYI: the Church of Satan hasn't been replaced, the Temple of Set is a different religion entirely, and who leads it isn't really my concern. In any case, both of them together are too small in numbers to even make a dent in any "widespread" and "organized" ritual abuse around the country that people such as Jon Rappaport claim.

Its always fun to talk about "Secret Societies" that are such a dire threat to the American Way(TM) but the fact of the matter is that most of these societies have few if any secrets, beyond the occasional silly ritual, that most are harmless. This isn't to say there isn't the occasional Heaven's Gate or the like cult out there, but most of these cults are formed by either con men or true believers who lead their followers to their deaths. See, that's the biggest thing right there, it is hard as hell to have a cult that is as individualistic as Church of Satan, and I don't believe the Temple of Set is much different in that regard.

I've met members from both groups, fairly benign is how I would describe it. More or less Libertarianism in religion is how I would describe it, not my cup of tea, to be sure, but I don't see anything particularly sinister about it. Think about this, they have no punishments for "unbelievers", people can leave whenever they feel like it. You aren't cut off from family, you aren't forced to sacrifice children on an altar, and oddly enough their "organization" isn't that organized. So how, pray tell, are they to accomplish the scourge of the universe that is Ritual Abuse?

[bobthedrummer]

100. Your post is full of errors Solon. PM me if you have questions about that

Here's another ritual abuse link. Cults are a CIA specialty.
http://www.ra-info.org/related/articles.shtml

[Solon]

109. Please post links with some credibility...

Masonic Ritual Abuse now? PLEEAZZZEEEEE!!!!!!

[Minstrel Boy]

101. You say you have a problem with a military or psy ops connection,

and then say who leads the Temple of Set "isn't really my concern," even though Col Aquino's field was psy ops. So why isn't it your concern?

Then you give a glowing character reference for your Luciferian aquaintances, and ask "how, pray tell, are they to accomplish the scourge of the universe that is Ritual Abuse?" Maybe because we don't have your problem with a military or psy ops connection.

[Solon]

110. So a guy who was already a member of the COS....

had personal and theological differences with LaVey, and Split with his church with a grand total of what 50 members. Just because he was a member of the military means absolutely squat to me. And as far as the "glowing" references, I wouldn't call it glowing, I said benign, not paragons of virtue, if I was looking for that, I'd look to the Buddhists. I just hate it when people bring up the already debunked notion of some grand, nation or world-wide conspiracy of some Secret Society to take over the world or something, I have no clue. Sounds too much like "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" BS to me.

[Minstrel Boy]

114. That he has been ID'd by victims

is more "BS" to you, I guess.

[Solon]

116. A victim whose statement couldn't hold up in court...

The case was dismissed, wholly without merit as it were. The suspect in question was exhonerated, as many were in those days, because of the manipulation of therapists on impressionable children.

[Minstrel Boy]

118. There are more victims who won't go to court

because they see examples like Alisha Owen's in Omaha.

She refused to retract her accusation of abuse against prominent figures including the chief of police, and was sentenced to up to 27 years in prison for perjury. She spent more time in solitary confinement than any female in the history of Nebraska.

After her example, dozens of others abused in the Franklin scandal recanted their testimony.

[Solon]

121. Total of 80 actually...

You are of course, referring to the famous Franklin Scandal, and the supposed cover up. Where human sacrifice and many other things happened, apparently with most of the town being totally oblivious to it for years. I guess the girls at Salem were correct too? I mean, if these allegations were serious, where is the evidence, you cannot keep such evidence secret forever. Where are the bloody altars, where are the scars on the "victims", really, is there any hard evidence, or is it just hearsay?

[Minstrel Boy]

131. Of course there's evidence. Of course there's scars.

And Paul Bonacci won a $1 million civil suit against ringleader Larry King on the strength of them.

[Solon]

136. He won a lawsuit about child pornography...

and prostitution against ONE man. Now are you saying, on the strength of that alone, that all the claims by the almost 80 children are completely true?

[Minstrel Boy]

137. Why are you forever constructing strawmen and ignoring

the evidence before you?

Here's the actual judgement from the court:

Two counts are alleged against the defendant: King in the complaint. Count V alleges a conspiracy with public officers to deprive the plaintiff of his civil rights, designed to continue to subject the plaintiff to emotional abuse and to prevent him from informing authorities of criminal conduct. Count VIII charges battery, false imprisonment, infliction of emotional distress, negligence and conspiracy to deprive the plaintiff of civil rights. Between December 1980 and 1988, the complaint alleges, the defendant King continually subjected the plaintiff to repeated sexual assaults, false imprisonments, infliction of extreme emotional distress, organized and directed satanic rituals, forced the plaintiff to "scavenge" for children to be a part of the defendant King's sexual abuse and pornography ring, forced the plaintiff to engage in numerous masochistic orgies with other minor children. The defendant King's default has made those allegations true against him. The issue now is the relief to be granted monetarily.

The now uncontradicted evidence is that the plaintiff has suffered much. He has suffered burns, broken fingers, beating of the head and face and other indignities by the wrongful actions of the defendant King. In addition to the misery of going through the experiences just related over a period of eight years, the plaintiff has suffered the lingering results to the present time. He is a victim of multiple personality disorder, involving as many as fourteen distinct personalities aside from his primary personality. He has given up a desired military career and received threats on his life. He suffers from sleeplessness, has bad dreams, has difficulty in holding a job, is fearful that others are following him, fears getting killed, has depressing flashbacks, and is verbally violent on occasion, all in connection with the multiple personality disorder and caused by the wrongful activities of the defendant King.

Almost certainly the defendant King has little remaining financial resources, but a fair judgment to compensate the plaintiff is necessary. For the sixteen years since the abuse of the plaintiff began I conclude that a fair compensation for the damages he has suffered is $800,000. A punitive damage award also is justified, but the amount needs to be limited because of the small effect that such a judgment would have on the defendant King, given his financial condition and presence in prison. I deem the punitive damage award of $200,000 to be adequate.

Dated February 19, 1999.
By the Court
/s/Warren Urborn
United States Senior District Judge


http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/Bonacci_vs_King-Franklin_Scandal.htm

[Solon]

139. No strawmen...

I didn't create them, all I said was that it was no evidence for SRA, I didn't say that this particular man was innocent. He was a drug trafficker and apparently ran a child prostitution ring. That means little when you bring up things like MK ULTRA or SRA, unrelated subjects that have nothing to do with this guy's criminal activities. Its not like I'm denying that ANY child abuse, trafficking, or molestation takes place, I only object to the idea that the government, any branch or dept. is complicit, in addition to linking it to any specific church or group without evidence.

[Minstrel Boy]

142. You say there's no evidence because you don't know it,

or refuse to see it.

King wasn't just a run of the mill drug trafficker who ran a child prostitution ring.

He sang the national anthem at two GOP national conventions. His credit union was laundering Iran/Contra money. He flew his child hookers to DC and threw enormous parties for elites, with private "afters" for underage sex. VP Bush was identified by several of the children who had no awareness of who he was.

[Solon]

145. So why not go after the real conspiracies...

and not make up others that just ruin credibility. The GOP is corrupt to the core, we all know that, they are an organized crime syndicate, but you don't need to drag in fictitious conspiracies to validate that.

[Minstrel Boy]

146. Your reasoning is so circular you could draw a pentangle in it. n/t

[readmoreoften]

181. King was an evil man. Others in the GOP may have

participated in his evil bullshit.

But this has nothing to do with Satanic Rituals or Satanism. The problem is sick abusive gangs of sexual predators, to bring a Satanist conspiracy into only undermines the real and obvious crime.

[Minstrel Boy]

184. Then talk to his victims, including Bonacci, who levelled the

"Satanic abuse" claim in his successful suit.

[readmoreoften]

187. no, i'm talking to you. n/t

[Dookus]

191. Again

you realize his "successful" suit was never heard in a court, right? He received a default judgment because King didn't respond to the suit. No court or jury ever decided on his "evidence".

[The Magistrate]

196. That Is A Distinction People Need To Realize, Sir

It would be interesting to know why King did not respond. From the judge's words, relating to his lack of resources, it may be surmised that King had already fallen low owing to his real financial crimes, or was even in jail already. But it cannot be stated to often or too firmly that an uncontested judgement does not even establish that a preponderance of evidence exists in favor of the position sustained without contest.

[Dookus]

197. From what I read

King was already in jail and flat-broke. I guess he didn't think he could lose any more than he already had.

But yes, it is important to realize that no court heard and decided on Bonacci's evidence. In fact, one judge dismissed it pretty harshly.

[Dookus]

168. You do understand, don't you

that he won because King did not respond to the suit. The judge never had to decide on the evidence or lack thereof. It was a default judgment.

[readmoreoften]

176. Duh! SATAN removes the evidence!

They worship Satan. The fact that there is no evidence is PROOF that they worship Satan because Satan poofed the evidence away.

[woo me with science]

190. yeah, that must be it. nt

[thebigidea]

104. you're not going to get anywhere with common sense

they're not Crowley nerds, they're horrible monsters! Awful monsters! Aquino isn't some terrible writer of Star Wars fan fiction - he's psyops!

uh, because he was a low level officer decades ago... forget the fact that he didn't do much but shuffle papers around, lets take Aquino at his word that he was actually James Bond crossed with Eddie Munster.

and if he denies being involved with any of this subterfuge, we can point to that as proof of him being involved!

and endless loop of paranoia, fun for the whole family.

[Solon]

112. Yes, I know, but its fun!!!!!

Besides, my religion is sometimes lumped in with those, so I'm a little defensive, though I think the entire notion is silly to begin with.

[Withywindle]

134. Actually...

...he wrote a piece of Silmarillion (J.R.R. Tolkien) fanfiction I thought was pretty good. Sauron's point of view, of course.


:P

[ConcernedDemocrat]

97. Creepy

[porphyrian]

103. People shouldn't abuse satanic ritual.

It's OK socially, but anyone who can't control the frequency of their participation should get some help. Satanic ritual junkies aren't just hurting themselves, they're hurting everyone around them.

[thebigidea]

107. I can quit anytime I want to!

I started summoning Cthulhu on weekends, but now I have to do it every day...

just one more invocation of the goat with a thousand young, just one, man!

oh please!

[porphyrian]

113. One more Ia! out of you, and it's intervention time... - n/t

[RandomKoolzip]

122. Good to see you back.

Satanic Ritual Abuse is a FAR more insidious phenomenon that Chemtrails, but they're both fuckin' REAL. My mom knows a friend of a co-worker whose uncle had a kid who was abused by a Satanic Cult while a jet flew overhead, dumping Satanic-worshipping Sarin-y type gasses over her town. Then Larry King and Jeff Gannon showed up, dressed in black suits, demanding she not go to the press...that shit's for REAL, I tell you.

[bobthedrummer]

125. Johnny Gosch Foundation and Franklin Credit Union scandal links

Johnny Gosch Foundation
http://www.johnnygosch.com/gunderson_report.html

Larry King, et al
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/ring.htm

[bobthedrummer]

126. For years there have been rumors of SRA evidence held by The Pentagon

only some Senators and committee people have seen this stuff outside of the military. It is being held very quietly by the Rumsfeld/Myers DoD.

[Solon]

132. What doesn't make sense to me....

Why externalize on our own faults. Human beings can, with little provocation, do the most depraved acts, with no outside force necessary nor organization to follow. If your going to make innuendo and rumors come out, substantiate them first. Also, what still hasn't been made clear to me, what purpose does any of this conspiracy serve? I went to the links, and even the book about Johnny looks like BS. The reason I say that is because, logically speaking, the kid is most likely dead, not locked up or used by the government as a spy. This is Occam's Razor talking, not me, and I would bet its much closer to the truth.

I don't deny that the CIA has done, and continues to do, some bad shit. MK-ULTRA is, I'm sure, the tip of the iceberg. But a couple of things, for one, they didn't get the idea from Satanists, North Korea was doing experiments before them, and they picked up the idea there. Granted the CIA and even FBI have gone off the deep end when it comes to some of their projects (psychic spies). But those have proved a failure, so after that type of fiasco, why the hell would they move on to esoteric and mystic paths from there?

As far as MK-ULTRA and similar programs, I'm sure the CIA has experimented on people. Historically our government has done this with little to know qualms (Tuskegee Experiments). However, I still don't see how this applies to SRAs, for one, I don't see a benefit to the government in this. For two, what could be the purpose of such endeavors? For three, how the hell can they keep it secret, they leak like a sieve all the time. For four, these incidents, and the accusations made, are so outlandish that they do require a lot of proof in order for anyone to believe them.

Children have been known to make outlandish accusations against adults before. Usually as an attention grabber, or jumping on the bandwagon, but also to cover up indiscretions of their own, like pregnancy. Think of Salem, how is this any different?

[Minstrel Boy]

135. That the CIA has an interest in the occult is not speculation. It is fact.

For example, from my post #40 above:

The voluminous (Mind Control) files of John Marks in Washington, D.C. (139 boxes obtained under FOIA, to be exact, two-fifths of which document CIA interest in the occult) include an Agency report itemizing a $30,000 grant to Orne from Human Ecology, and another $30,000 from Boston's Scientific Engineering Institute (SEI) - another CIA funding cover, founded by Edwin Land of the Polaroid Corporation (and supervision of the U-2 spy plane escapades). This was the year that the CIA's Office of Research and Development (ORD) geared up a study of parapsychology and the occult. The investigation, dubbed Project OFTEN-CHICKWIT, gave rise to the establishment of a social "laboratory" by SEI scientists at the University of South Carolina - a college class in black witchcraft, demonology and voodoo.

And Dr Martin Orne, the CIA's "go to" guy on mind control, went on to become a founding member of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation. The primary purpose of which is to deride accusations of ritual abuse.

"...so after that type of fiasco, why the hell would they move on to esoteric and mystic paths from there?"

Ever heard of the military's "remote viewing" program?

STAR GATE was one of a number of "remote viewing programs" conducted under a variety of code names, including SUN STREAK, GRILL FRAME, and CENTER LANE by DIA and INSCOM, and SCANATE by CIA. These efforts were initiated to assess foreign programs in the field; contract for basic research into the the phenomenon; and to evaluate controlled remote viewing as an intelligence tool. The program consisted of two separate activities. An operational unit employed remote viewers to train and perform remote viewing intelligence-gathering. The research program was maintained separately from the operational unit.

By 1995 the program had conducted several hundred intelligence collection projects involving thousands of remote viewing sessions. Notable successes were said to be "eight martini" results, so-called because the remote viewing data were so mind-boggling that everyone has to go out and drink eight martinis to recover. Reported intelligence gathering successes included:

Joe McMoneagle, a retired Special Project Intelligence Officer for SSPD, SSD, and 902d MI Group, claims to have left Stargate in 1984 with a Legion of Merit Award for providing information on 150 targets that were unavailable from other sources. A "remote viewer" was tasked to locate a Soviet Tu-95 bomber which had crashed somewhere in Africa, which he allegedly did within several miles of the actual wreckage.

In September 1979 the National Security Council staff asked about a Soviet submarine under construction. The remote viewer reported that a very large, new submarine with 18-20 missile launch tubes and a "large flat area" at the aft end would be launched in 100 days. Two subs, one with 24 launch tubes and the other with 20 launch tubes and a large flat aft deck, were reportedly sighted in 120 days.
http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/stargate.htm


And "psychic warfare":

Ronson began his journey into the US army’s heart of cerebral darkness in London, where he got a tip from Uri Geller - the psychic famed for bending spoons on TV in the 1970s. "Under Clinton, the nuttiness was at the fringes but the dynamic changed when the Bushes got into power and it felt like the nuttiness was now at the core of things," Ronson tells me at his Soho club. "So I started asking around and then I heard about remote viewers and psychic spies and, right here on the roof terrace in this building, Uri Geller told me that he’d been ‘re-activated’."

I ask why the US military might have brought Geller back in from the cold. The simple answer is that Geller once belonged to an unofficial unit of psychic spies, formed in the 1970s to read the future and conduct experiments into the supernatural for the US military. Geller’s tip led Ronson to Glenn Wheaton, a retired sergeant and former Special Forces psychic spy who confirmed that the military funded this unofficial unit. There was more to the psychics, however, than trying to "remotely access" Soviet weapons plans or predict China’s next move. They were looking at new forms of warfare, including walking through walls, adopting a cloak of invisibility, even stopping an animal’s heartbeat by staring at it.

Wheaton told Ronson about a "goat lab" where the staring took place and this led him to General Stubblebine III, the army’s chief of intelligence in the 1980s. The General is a big fan of Geller and in Ronson’s documentary lays out a whole trayful of twisted cutlery as evidence of his faith. Stubblebine, says Ronson, was so convinced about these ideas that he spent several weeks trying to conjure up a mental state that would enable him to walk through walls. He never succeeded, but became a powerful advocate of New Age thought.

Ronson is smiling across the table as we discuss the debleated goats he discovered at an army base in Fort Mead, North Carolina, but his story has the darkest of undertones. "It felt as if I was really finding this stuff out for the first time," he says. "No-one knows about the goats. They’re completely new and the guy who told me immediately regretted it."
http://news.scotsman.com/features.cfm?id=1310082004

[Solon]

138. OK, Voodoo is a Hollywood creation....

Its Santeria or Vodun for crying out loud. Also, "Black" Witchcraft doesn't exist, never heard of it outside of fairy tales and fiction. Demonology is a specialty of the Catholic church actually, and occult is too nebulous a term to use usefully in any case. Do you know the rites of the sacrement to become a priest in the Catholic church? Its not public knowledge, its occultic by nature, that's all occult means.

BTW: I already mentioned their failed program in using psychics and other endevours. It never panned out, the "Remote Viewing" idea failed miserably.

[Minstrel Boy]

140. "Also, 'Black' Witchcraft doesn't exist"

"I may be a Black Magician, but I'm a bloody great one!" - Aleister Crowley (asset of British intelligence)

Would you call it the "Left Hand Path"?

[Solon]

143. Crowley...

He loved to florish on his own accomplishments, didn't he, but alas, he was but one man, and even one as influential as he didn't know everything. This website can explain better than I.

http://www.dpjs.co.uk/lefthandpath.html

[thebigidea]

147. oh, he was no asset. they were amused by him.

he spun tall tales that were politely laughed at, offered to do things that were the equivalent of making Castro's beard fall out. Ian Fleming was quite the zany back then, and indulged pranksters like Crowley.

[Withywindle]

141. What really doesn't make sense to me...

...is trying to connect these allegedly secret occult black ops to VERY PUBLIC occultists and Satanists like Aquino. Surely he knows that he's doing what he's doing in a hostile environment of a "Christian nation." I'm sure he gets the equivalent of Driving While Satanist harrassment crap all the time.

And every self-identified Satanist I've ever met thrives on it. Defying social norms is a big part of why they do what they do, why they put that heretic-Christian-sect ooga-booga on top of what is basically Ayn-Rand-geek philosophy. But, like members of my own (and yours too I see!) often-misunderstood religion they are generally not organized enough to set up meetings where everybody shows up on time, much less participate in global snuff-film/psychic-experiment conspiracies.

That in itself does not necessarily mean that such conspiracies don't exist. Or that the CIA isn't involved somehow. But believing the hype from people who thrive on attention (NOT exactly conducive behavior to top-secret anything) doesn't help anyone's case for it.

[Solon]

144. That's true...

Like I said above, forgot which post, they are the Libertarian version of Religion personified. Fine for them, I don't really care about their antics, they do not harm people at any larger rate than the rest of the population, so why get so worked up about it. Like I said above, and you probably agree with me, I err on the side of caution, and doubt the claims that such abuses, when prepertrated, have anything to do with psy-ops or the CIA. Also, they are probably more disorganized than we are, we are individualistic, they are individualistic to a fault.

BTW: Merry Meet! :hi:

[manna]

149. bohemian grove of yesteryear

I can only imagine what they've done with the place now










more here

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/FindingAids/dynaweb/calher/bohemian/figures/

[norml]

151. Cool Pics! Thanks for posting the link. Welcome to DU manna!

We're glad you made it!

[Pithlet]

156. I just don't know what to say

The hysteria caused by allegations of SRA has caused innocent people to be persecuted and has created victims, and continues to do so. The West Memphis three for example, one of whom is on death row, are yet another victims of this ridiculous mass hysteria. I never would have thought to see it so defended here. I honestly thought I'd see it all. I don't know why I'm so surprised. But, I am sickened. It's been exposed as the baseless hysteria that it was, and I'd hoped it had died down and was going away for good.

[Minstrel Boy]

158. Wrongful convictions are always tragic, whatever the crime.

But they are no argument for the inauthenticity of crimes having been committed.

[woo me with science]

171. Thank you.

Yes, it has been debunked by serious researchers. Unfortunately, there is a whole industry of hack therapists (fed by hack training schools and "survivor" self-selection into the therapy field) that keeps it thriving. It is sickening and heartbreaking, how many people are still being duped by this garbage. Rank pseudoscience about body memories and voodoo treatments like EMDR. The saddest part is that behind every "believer" in this nonsense, there is at least one family in ruins. Until standards are put into place for therapy training and practice, people's reputations and lives will be shredded and destroyed, for no good reason. This is beyond sad. It is sick.

[DemocracyInaction]

159. Sat and listened to one of my fellow teachers tell about

what had happened to her. She finally was able to identify what happened when she was in her 50's. A foster parent was part of one of these groups. They did beat here and sexaually abuse her. They left her down in an pit with snakes for days at a time etc. As an adult she would about once a year receive a phone call and disappear for a few days. Her family figured she was just freaking out for whatever reasons and forced her into therapy. It was there that she remembered what happened to her and where she went on these excursions. She never knew before where she went or how she even got there. The authorities went with her to a farm across the border into New Hampshire and found things just like she had said. They concluded that there were indeed rituals that had been going on in the woods of this place, etc. Some arrests and prosecutions were made. However, the bulk of the cult were never tracked down.

[Swamp Rat]

161. I agree with Sinéad O'Connor...

:)

[yodermon]

166. This is a Rovian tactic.

It is called "poisoning the well." He has done this over and over throughout his career. He did it w/ JH Hatfield & "Fortunate Son". He probably did it with the Dan Rather memo-gate.

It involves leaking mostly true information, but with just enough bullshit to completely invalidate the source, AND BY ASSOCIATION, the truth that is attached to it.

Now think. How does this tactic apply with the current scenario?

There are plenty of pedophiles in this country (and the world.) No one disputes that. There are even plenty of pedophile RINGS (Conspiracy, by definition). Every few months I hear in the news about an actual pedophile Ring being busted by the Feds. Hell, google "busted pedophile ring" and you get this: http://displacedparts.com/ringbusted.htm (AP articles). The point? If you can get the kids to make ultra-bizarre claims of satanic ritual abuse, then the dismissal of these charges will cover for the plain old run-of-the-mill PEDOPHILIA that really and truly took place.

There is no doubt that the memories of these children have been tampered with. By whom? Why would a therapist of police interrogator choose to implant such outlandish stories in their minds, only to immediately be labeled with "False Memory Syndrome"? And what a great cover! Everyone knows about FMS nowadays; if it's so easy to "plant false memories" into kids, then surely some conniving pedo's out there have done exactly that. They have their way with the kids, then "poison the well" with fantastic stories of SRA.

Especially if real "mundane" trauma/abuse has occurred, along with the attendant PTSD and traumatic amnesia -- just enough hyperbole can be added to the kids' stories to provoke claims of False Memories. How cunning! C'mon, THINK LIKE ROVE!

FWIW, I don't think that Gannon=Gosch. If Gosch is still around, I just don't think putting him in the WHITE HOUSE PRESS ROOM would be a good way to keep attention away from him. (I could be wrong of course).

PS an interesting link about so-called "False" Repressed Memories:
http://www.patiencepress.com/samples/4thIssue.html
excerpts:

...The first big lie is that there is no such thing as forgetting trauma. In every type of trauma, from rape and battering to combat, from incest to torture, from fire to earthquake, survivors often lose part or all of their memory. Not only is it one way of dealing with trauma especially if it is overwhelming, physically violent and caused by humans, it's so common it's one of the diagnostic criteria for PTSD. The fact that you can't prove the existence of repressed memories in a laboratory setting is used by FMS supporters as proof that repression doesn't exist. I suppose at one time, these FMS supporters would have insisted that the earth was flat. Well, you can't prove repression exists in a lab not because it doesn't exist, but because you can't rape and torture people in labs. The “scientific proof” fallacy annoys me. Remember DDT? There was no “scientific proof” that it was harming the ecology when Silent Spring was published, but it was. Proof was found later.
...
The second big lie is that laboratory studies apply to traumatic memories.

In these studies people are told about or watch a videotape of some supposed trauma and are then given misleading information and asked about it. In the lab people make a lot of mistakes about what they saw. However, in a study of people who actually witnessed a murder, their memories were “detailed, accurate and persistent,” (Yuille and Cutshall, 1989). Real trauma leads to “quantitatively different memories than innocuous laboratory events.”

“You cannot rape or torture someone in a laboratory and ask them half an hour later what it was like to be raped or tortured,” Bessel van der Kolk, MD, a Harvard Medical School psychiatrist and professor says. To say that laboratory studies apply to traumatic memories is about as scientific as saying that studying the common cold will make you an expert on lung cancer.

[woo me with science]

172. Are you serious?????

Seriously, are you listening to yourself?

So Rove himself is now out there orchestrating accusations of satanic ritual abuse so as to discredit real multiple-personality child victims of the government's pornography and brainwashing industry.

Wow, he has a lot of time on his hands.

[yodermon]

175. This is not at all what I meant.

I simply mean it is a Rove-style Tactic, not necessarily perpetuated by Rove himself.

Clear enough?

[woo me with science]

186. *sigh*

Yeah, it's infinitely more credible now. Not only is there a large-scale government plot to abuse children and turn them into multiple personalitied, color-coded sex robots, there is also an adjunct division to create *unconvincing* satanic ritual abuse claims to throw everybody off the track.

yeah, that makes perfect sense.

[manna]

194. It's alright to be in denial

Denial is the natural state most people go into when they can not confront a reality. Humanity seems to have been in denial of rampant sexual abuse going on for thousands of years.

I feel it makes it very difficult for many people who wish to confront these things, to be labeled 'nutters' by people clearly in denial. If you won't read the evidence, if you won't see the big picture, just stand aside and say I don't want to know.

You guys are right it probably doesn’t help the victim’s cases that they tend to speak gibberish because their minds have been smashed apart by such violent abuse.

http://www.voxfux.com/features/cia_child_sex.html

--

Our ancestors seems to have no problem in organizing and dropping their first born children into urns and vases, promises to the gods for something or other that they wanted. Or burying a child in the base of a bridge or building for good luck. Or melting babies for Moloch to have. Or just plain dumping them on a hill because they weren't a boy.

http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/05_history.html

I see no reason to believe we've changed that much.

Especially in light of the abundance of evidence to the contrary.

I would not dump it all into the lap of satanists, there are plenty of sadists who don't have any use for religion

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=499

[woo me with science]

195. Here we go again...

shifting the argument. Nobody is denying that real abuse exists. The problem is specifically with garbage accusations based on recovered memories, pseudoscience, and conspiracy theories. Smearing people and entire groups based on no good evidence. Destroying lives and reputations. And sick "therapies" that make women sicker and destroy lives.

[barbaraann]

178. I knew a little girl who was a victim. She would be about 20 now.

She received the maximum amount of California Victim Witness money (about $90,000) for therapy. She went twice a week to someone in Gilroy who specialized in therapy for satanic abuse victims.

It happened at a Catholic day care with a security camera in the entryway.

[readmoreoften]

183. That's Catholic Ritual Abuse

and it has indeed had it's day in court.