When a friend turns fundie,it's like they are dead.

[undergroundpanther]

I had a friend he was my buddy for like 10 years. We met in the hospital. We both had depression. All through our long friendship he was there for me and I was there for him, through thick and thin,through his cheesy girlfriends and all the stresses of life.He had a crush on my cousin.He had a wicked humor,a dry wit and we made up alot of goofy songs he would play on the guitar.We spent hours looking at the sky(astronomy buffs),we'd spend time hanging out,playing dungeons and dragons,listening to records, watching cartoons(like thunder cats),drinking limeade like wine tasters,trying to get the perfect balance of bitter sour and sweet. We were the kind of friends that don't happen very often in life.


A few years back he called me up to say he "converted"..He wanted to meet me at a place we used to go to walk and talk all the time because the scenery was interesting, and there are no damn hills..the old abandoned railroad tracks..And there he told me he "found God". I let him talk and just listened at the fantastic tales of other church members he met.

Then it came to the kicker..He couldn't be friends with me anymore because *I was not Christian*

I was shocked,he could tell, so he said it again,that this was the end of our freindship,goodbye..it HAS to be this way.
I looked at him in shock and tears came to my eyes and I said Do you think I'm A BAD PERSON or something?? He didn't answer that one for a long time,because I think he was struggling with reality VS what he was being told was his new reality...than he said he can't be friends with me because I am pagan.(I was satanic/pagan at the time).. I asked him if I had I said or done anything to hurt ,disrespect or offend him as a human being? He said no.

Than I asked him why,why are you throwing away our friendship? We've been friends for years,we have been through alot of shit and changes together..Is this your God asking this of you or is it your church asking this of you just because I don't believe as you do? He didn't answer that.

You know I don't care if you are Christian,or anything else,because you know I respect that it's your relationship with your God,it's not my relationship with God..so I have no say on what your relationship with God is or isn't.But I don't have to make you believe as I do as a prerequisite for friendship .Why does your God ask this? Before we have been very different in our spiritual beliefs right from the start,and it hasn't caused problems in the friendship until now. Are you saying,now that you found Jesus I have to convert to your beliefs or not be a friend to you anymore all of a sudden? Why is our very real long time friendship being sacrificed for this new belief of yours? Don't you realize this really hurts me because I care about you? He didn't answer that.



He gave me the evangelical sch peal,almost like he read it from the fundie handbook on how to covert people..I was totally in emotional shock.

After I told him wouldn't accept Jesus in my heart,and I said I don't want to take all the church/human baggage that comes with his God..we got up,I walked with him to his car as tears were streaming off my face.I felt like a hole had been blasted into my chest.His heart was as cold and closed as a steel jaw trap and the warmth and smile that was always there on his face when he saw me every time before this time had evaporated..I never saw him again.

I sometimes wonder if he's OK,if he is still here(hasn't killed himself or something) and has found good friends and a kinder god.
But for me over here in the unchurched reality it's like his true spirit,the part of him that when it interacted with me,and made a friendship be so alive and fun.. He just died that day.

And I still, after all these years , miss him.

Darryl,If you are out there.. If I had two dead mice..I'd still give you one.

Underground Panther in the Sky

[Lars39]

1. Sounds like he joined a cult/was brainwashed.

I'm so sorry, undergroundpanther. :hug:

[Ladyhawk]

35. Actually, most fundy sects think this way.

In my opinion, fundamentalism is a cult. It's just more accepted by our society than smaller cults.

[Lars39]

38. I agree.

The abnormal has become the norm for a lot of people.
A skilled(and warped)preacher can inch his congregation to cultism.
:hi:

[Ladyhawk]

39. Hi Lars...you da bomb! :D

:hi:

[calico1]

2. Two things:

1. He wasn't a true friend.
2. He wasn't a true Christian.

I am sorry you were hurt that way.

[Ladyhawk]

3. I've had similar experiences.

Only it was sort of the opposite. I grew up fundy and started questioning the religion. As a result, I lost all my friends, some of whom I'd known all my life. I was having emotional problems and one of them (speaking for the others) said, "Don't come back until you trust Jesus to solve your problems." I had gone to my friends for help. First they tried to cast a demon out of me, then they told me not to come back until I was right with god.

Since then I've tried to be friends with other fundies, but it hasn't worked out. So, speaking only for myself, I would not be close friends with a fundy. For them a non-Christian represents one of two things: 1) a potential convert or, 2) a temptation. Once you reject their world view, they don't want anything to do with you.

I'm sorry you had to go through this. In my opinion, fundamentalism is like a disease. It turns its adherents into non-questioning zombies. I've seen this happen. It's like that person doesn't even exist anymore. It happened to my friend, Roy. After he decided to re-dedicate his life to Christ, he didn't seem like the same person and, in my opinion, the change wasn't a good one. He was just another Jesusbot.

[FreedomAngel82]

21. I know what you mean

with questioning. I sometimes question the actual religion I'm a part of. I'm a very spiritual person and believe in many different things and whatnot. It's very heartbreaking how they treat you if you're not on their same mindset.

[earth mom]

53. I had a friend that happened to-she became unrecognizable

When I met her she was fun, hip, cool, fun and just a totally accepting and kind person. Then she went through a bad romantic breakup that really almost cost her her sanity. She wasn't sure she wanted to live anymore, and in desperation started going to this so called fun, hip and cool church that had a young congregation-she was in her early 40s while most everyone else was younger. Unfortunately this so called "cool" church seemed to turn her away from being the fun, hip and cool person she already was and into....yep a zombie, a "Jesusbot". After a couple of years, I felt like I hardly knew her anymore, she had changed that much. And once she started to become critical of me-that was the end of the friendship. Life is short; I don't need someone judging me or critiquing me-I know I'm a good person with good morals, even though I don't go to ANY church let alone hers. :eyes:

To the original poster: I'm sorry about losing your friend. It gets easier with time, that I know for sure. Good luck!

[pres2032]

4. i'm so sorry to hear that and i know where you're coming from

I met this girl, who we'll call "betty," last year through a friend we both had and right away there was this connection. We were actually speechless for a few moments after we saw each other for the first time. There was a period where we were occasionally meeting for meals because of our friend. Then at this swing dance, the girl I wanted to be with left the dance without saying a word to me and betty was there so i spilled my grief to her and we hung out together for the rest of the night and our friendship started.

I knew betty had a boyfriend and was perfectly fine with it, i was glad that i had finally found a best friend, of the type like Darryl. We did everything together and kept no secrets.

She invited me to a christian fellowship (fundy) meeting and I accepted. I loved it right away, loved the singing and the fellowship. Even though I was Catholic, They accepted me completely, even making me a leader.

Then I went to a summer camp with them and the main leader took me aside and proceeded to break apart my catholicism. :grr: That started my break with the group.

Later that summer, I spent the day at her beach house and we had the greatest time, I really felt that I had found my best friend, if not my soul mate.

Before school started, the leadership team of the fellowship had another retreat and that's where i found out about them meeting freshman, pretending to be their friend, and then recruiting them (I'm not a freshman, i'm the same age as betty, just to clarify).

That set me apart from the group and I quit two weeks later. Two days after i did so, betty IM-ed me to tell me she was signficantly cutting back our friendship. we could no longer meet for movies, no longer talk about the things we've always talked about. She even said it was "unhealthy" for me to have so many women friends. :wtf:

I swear someone got to her and told her to break off our friendship because i left the fellowship. We've met for meals since then, but the damage has already been done and I think that our graduation this May will be the last I ever hear from her again. :cry:

[FreedomAngel82]

22. That is so sad

:( It does sound like some people got to her. Possibly her "church friends" and leaders.

[Lexingtonian]

30. that strategy has a name- "lovebombing"

It tends to go along with finding ways to use up all the potential convert's time and break his social connections with other groups other via a constant stream of 'meetings' and 'activities'.

[Ladyhawk]

37. Someone recently tried to lovebomb me.

I ate his liver with a side of fava beans and a nice chianti.

Um, actually, when the "lovebombing" didn't work, he cornered me in his basement and tried to tear apart everything I believe. Looking back on it, I realize that this was the proverbial last straw.

This man seemed at least somewhat sane for a fundamentalist. Now I suspect the kind treatment was all a ruse to get me to convert. I've been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. I don't want to be a fundy. I hate that existence. It's so sterile. And your friends are only friends as long as you accept their way of thinking.

I don't want anymore false friends, so I am staying away from fundies.

[Ladyhawk]

34. I was exposed to some anti-catholicism as a fundy.

There were these comic books I read that equated JFK and the Pope with the anti-Christ. Their faces were changed to look evil. The other comic book poked fun at evolution. It wasn't even a pot / kettle thing because the fundies were poking fun at something they didn't even really understand. Have you ever known a fundy with a good grasp of evolutionary theory?

Looking back, it was pretty funny. But I was an impressionable kid and bought into all of it.

IMHO, fundies are downright dangerous and I'm through trying to find the "good" in them.

[Kerrytravelers]

5. My husband's family members are fundamentalists fruitcakes

who wouldn't speak to him for the longest time because he chose to follow Catholicism instead.

He and his horrible minister brother never were close, but before his brothers death (at age 33) they really despised one another. I can honestly say the day his brother died, I could care less. He was nothing to me. Worse then a stranger, actually. We ended up spending 11 days with his family. Those are 11 wasted days. If I sound cold, it's only a reaction to the way I have been treated and the way I have seen my husband treated. He called me a baby killer. Instresting. I'm a writer and an educator. I've never spanked a child.


Before the election, we received emails saying we had no morals or values, etc. blah blah blah. They will not be spending much time with their grandchildren and never unsupervised.

His family means nothing to me. I really have no desire to ever see them again.

So yes, it's like a death. He has no relationship with these people. And they are truly biggots and hypocrits. They are the worst people I have ever met.

Fundamentalism isn't following the religion they claim to believe more than they rest of us. No matter the religion- Christianity, Islam, etc. Fundamentalism is the lack of ability to think and question. It is a death of education, of the mind and of the heart.

[glitch]

6. Who said "Imitation is suicide" pegged it. When you give over your

independent thought to someone else, it's game over for you.

[Pharaoh]

8. I've seen this happen too

Alot of these people (pat robertson,jerry falwell ect) walk around with this shit eatin grin on there faces that pretty much says....."I am one of the chosen ones and you are just a piece of shit and will burn in hell.....I'd feel sorry for them if they were'nt such assholes!

:party:

[glitch]

59. Ralph Waldo Emerson said it

"Envy is ignorance, imitation is suicide... to be great is to be misunderstood."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson

[SmokingJacket]

7. If a group makes you break off with your old friends, it's a cult.

I've had friends convert to different religions, lose religions, etc., but they never felt like they needed to leave their friends.

Obsession with "impending catastrophe" (for ex, the rapture) is another sign of a cult, according to www.rickross.com.

Don't give up on him, though -- he might break free of them someday.

On edit: one of the reasons I hate cults and groups that are even slightly culty is because of the way they exploit people's pain and search for meaning. Depressed people can be vulnerable...

[FreedomAngel82]

23. I do remember hearing

about this group of people who would be like a cult and claim they were of a Christian nature. This was a while back before all this started to happen. They would get to people and make them do things. I think this was on some channel like MSNBC or something. Anyways, they would tell people how to do their life and they had to cut off from family members, friends, etc. It was really scary. This one girl who was telling about the story and how she realized what was going on and got out before she pleged to them. Does anybody know what I'm talking about? I vaguley remember this so sorry if it's not too clear.

[Ladyhawk]

71. "Depressed people can be vulnerable..."

I believe that the fundy who tried to convert me knew this. I was in a bad place emotionally and he used it against me. Having studied fundamentalism from the outside for years, I knew what he was doing so it didn't work. It did, however, piss me off. :)

[Ellen Forradalom]

9. If he is unwilling to walk among the ordinary people of the earth

he ain't no Christian.

Jesus mixed it up with everyone he encountered. He didn't spit on people because they weren't good enough for him.

[FreedomAngel82]

25. His whole birth

is around that issue. Just reading about his life and his travels.

[Hamlette]

10. my best friend for many years was evangelical (not fundy) and liberal

he stopped talking to me over the gay rights issue. Neither of us is gay but it was in the news a lot and I would rant about it. We had agreed not to discuss it but it ate at me and I brought it up again. I probably only brought it up 3 times in our thousands of hours of conversation. The third time he said nothing but never spoke to me again.

My theory is he just couldn't connect his "religion" with what he knew was right; Jesus would not have discriminated against gays.

Kool Aid people.

[readmoreoften]

64. What is a liberal evangelical that discriminates against gays?

Is that like a regular evangelical but nicer?

[Lerkfish]

11. yes. This is what nonchristians at this site don't realize...

when they demand left christians like myself to convert the "christian" right wing.
They become dead to anything but what their handlers tell them to believe.

Brick walls are made of softer stuff.

I'm sorry you lost your friend to this.

[gorbal]

16. Their are plenty of non-brainwashed that would be easier sells.

Why do some dingbats look at the Pat Robertsons of our world and think those are the folks we have to "convert". Far easier to reason with simple, hard-working americans that just might not have as much time or energy as we do to think about things.

[Kerrytravelers]

27. "demand left christians like myself to convert the "christian" right wing"

Thank you. I have been saying the same thing for ever. Once they taste the Kool-Aid, it isn't as easy as "see what we have to offer over here."

My husband was raised in that kind of insanity. He got out. He's one of us. And, his family hates us for it, as you can read from my earlier post.

It's not easy.

[Ladyhawk]

40. The fundies won't listen to me because I'm an atheist.

I guess I hold out hope they'll listen to liberal Christians, but it seems like they don't want to listen to anyone. Fundies have adversely affected almost every facet of my life. I keep wanting to hold out hope that they will change, but that "last straw" incident makes me want to throw my arms in the air and forget it.

Liberal Christianity is our last hope when it comes to fundies, but if they won't listen to other Christians, whom will they listen to???

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. They don't listen to liberal Christians, either

They write up articles for their followers about the "lies" of liberal Christianity and how to argue against them. Of course, the arguments make no sense, but that doesn't matter if people are scared into thinking that they must believe a certain way or spend eternity being burned by never-ending flames.

[Ladyhawk]

62. Sigh...I guess they have to want to be reached.

Most would rather die than consider they might be wrong. :(

[Lerkfish]

69. its sad.

nothing vexes me quite the same way as this conundrum. They believe they are being good christians by ignoring everything Christ actually said. And if you try to remind them of Christ's teachings, you're labeled "unchristian" or corrupted.

There is no way I know of to break that Gordian knot. Of course, God can, but even He only knocks at the door, he doesn't break it down.

The religious right leaders will be, IMHO, facing a particularly nasty comeuppance at the judgment for intentionally leading astray whole flocks of sheep, but that doesn't help us much in the here and now.

The sad fact is, its easier to bring an atheist to the Lord than the religious right, because they think they are already there.

They are modern day Pharisees.

[readmoreoften]

65. I guess I finally understand the Christian left...

You guys can't reach them either. They just came in and hijacked your religion. And you can't yell louder than them because hate is louder than love.

[Lerkfish]

68. correct. we can yell all we want to deaf people....

but they have to want to listen, and that's not going to occur from any forceful effort on our parts. Part of the brainwashing is to mistrust any other source of information. The more you try to dislodge them, the tighter they cling because they then see you as a threat to their holiness...honest.
When I"ve tried to explain Christ's love and how the peacemakers are blessed, they denounce me as satan and say I'm not a christian because I don't support Bush and his illegitimate war.
Its pretty much the same as trying to talk to a freeper: they have built in mechanisms to deflect logic.

I wish it were not true, but the sad fact is, unless something shakes their beliefs from within, no outside force is ever going to make a difference.

[Ladyhawk]

72. I'm sorry, Lerkfish...for all of us.

Until this thread, I held out hope that the fundies could be reached somehow. Now I am not so sure.

How the hell did I escape? What makes some people cling to fundamentalism no matter what?

[Extend a Hand]

12. How incredibly sad

I can not image Jesus Christ *ever* doing such a thing. I was touched by your story.

[bobbieinok]

13. one of my son's best friends in high school attended a conservative

christian church......my son attended a lot of the youth activities and developed a very positive view of the fun the kids had

they were friends through college, although the friend went to a conservative church college.....on graduation he started working for some conservative christian group

when my son got married, I asked him if his friend would be able to attend.......he told me then that he hadn't asked him.....at some point after college grad the friend talked to my son and said they could no longer be friends because my son 'had not accepted Jesus' ....my son was still very upset (he told me this about 8 years after this 'talk')......his friend had not asked him to his wedding and completely broke off all contact

my take......the church the friend belongs to emphasizes evangelization a great deal.......throughout jr high and high school my son was learning that this was a great bunch of kids who had a lot of fun together and he had quite a positive view of this type of christianity.......when his friend turned on him, all the positive views were destroyed.......is this how you win people to Christ??????

[mcar]

26. My son had a similar experience

We're liberal protestants (former Catholics) in a very fundamentalist area. Many of his high school friends were "saved" and looked at saving other souls as their mission in life. He dealt with that annoyance but when they started telling another very good friend, who is of Indian heritage and Hindu, that she was going to hell because she was not Christian, he dropped those friends like the hypocrites they were.

I was proud of him for standing up for his beliefs and for his true friend.

[Kerrytravelers]

28. You have done a magnificiant job as a parent. You are to be commended.

[glitch]

14. I think it's the sensitive soul syndrome - some people are just too frail

to handle the complexities of life these days. Life is frenetic and chaotic, and often loud and over-bright, and I don't blame them for turning off and giving their true self over to someone/anything else.

So they resort to addictions, cults included. Whether it's tv, hate-radio, alcohol, drugs, religion, politics, whatever it takes to distract from the realities of life in America.
Hopefully they can snap themselves out of it, otherwise I think it takes a detox program.

Reality is tough. And here you have to devote yourself to seeking it out. I sometimes wonder how these fragile people would fair in a kinder, slower culture.
Probably they'd do well.

Disclaimer: this is not to say that those who thrive on chaos don't have sensitive souls, they're just simply better adapted to the chaos.

[Ladyhawk]

44. I'm re-reading Elaine Aron's The Highly Sensitive Person...

...and as a highly sensitive person I can tell you that even though I was afraid, I did look for truth and reality. So, classifying all sensitives as people who need some kind of crutch is wrong. I am learning to do without the crutch of religion, but having been brainwashed most of my life, I have found it hard.

Fear is the big motivator here. People want to feel safe. They want to avoid the uncertainties of life. They don't want to die. Non-sensitive people are just as susceptible to fear as sensitive folks. If fundamentalists were entirely made up of sensitive people, their agenda wouldn't be quite so ugly. At least, I hope it wouldn't be. :scared:

A mentally healthy person has to learn to accept uncertainties instead of relying on a cut-and-dried set of dogma to answer all the questions of life. I don't know how to help people who get involved in this madness. As an ex-fundy, I've thought about it a lot. As the daughter of a religiously insane person, I've thought about it an awfully lot.

I wish someone had an answer.

Check out this editorial. It sounds harsh. When I first read it, I thought, "This is totally against the first amendment." But our country is now controlled by people who are divorced from reality (apologies to Jimmy-Jeff...well, maybe not). Read this and tell me what you think:

Ending Biblical Brainwash

[glitch]

46. Very interesting site and article, thanks for posting. I hope you didn't

think I was classifying all sensitives as needing a crutch, that's why I made the disclaimer.

I consider myself a sensitive as well (maybe we all do).

I also had to go through a painful period of facing the harsher realities of the world. It took all my courage, and then some. I think that's why I can empathize with the sensitives who do succomb to crutches. I am also naturally good at chaotic situations, which may or may not be why I didn't choose the crutch path. Just speculating. Actually, I used to smoke for quite awhile so I can't claim to have never had a crutch.

I think you're right regarding fear. I decided a long time ago that the people who bought into bushco's spin were fear-based. That applies to any cult of course.

Just out of curiousity, have you ever read any M. Scott Peck? He delves deep into fear-based personalities and cultures.

Now I am off to read the article, thanks again!

[Ladyhawk]

51. Of course, you're right.

After re-reading your post, I think I must have got the wrong impression. Not all sensitives fall into the cult trap.

However, I do know some sensitives who did need the crutch: mostly sensitive artistic types. I am a sensitive artistic type and gravitate toward others who are also sensitive and artistic.

I have thought about reading M. Scott Peck, but have never got around to it. :) Famous excuse, eh?

The article is interesting, but it will be a long time before fundamentalism will be included in DSM. I think their freedom of religion stops at the point when they start hurting others and hurting society. If we ever get to the point of seriously limiting fundamentalism, it will be a huge issue, debated hotly on both sides. I still have reservations a la the first amendment, but the harm caused by fundamentalism has made me reconsider. I'm still trying to decide how I feel about this.

BTW, :hug: I meant no disrespect. I was merely trying to discuss the issues. :)

[glitch]

55. I felt no disrespect! Also, just love to discuss the issues, too.

You will enjoy M. Scott Peck when you get to him. Very enlightening to me, and if I recall I stayed up all night reading his first one.

I loved the article. Actually I stopped for dinner but I looked around the site as well, very interesting.
I don't think that viewing fundamentalism as a sickness, like alcoholism, impinges on rights, anymore than other laws we as a society enact to protect ourselves.

I do think fundamentalism is a limiting, debiitating disorder, and I don't think the people who suffer from it are happy people. I don't think we should outlaw fundamentalism or treat it's practioners with lesser rights, but I don't see why we can't recognize black-white thinking as not optimal and help treat the people who seek treatment for it, and feel compassion and seek to counsel those that don't.

It would be interesting for someone to do the numbers on just how many lives are destroyed or otherwise harmed by fundamentalism worldwide. Not just outright murders and war, but also the damage to women and children, to economies and even to the environment. And art! I am thinking of those great Buddhas in Afghanistan, but what about all the artifacts in Iraq that are now lost due to our own fundamentalist war-monger.

What are the costs to societies worldwide from fundamentalism? Now wouldn't that make a fascinating study?

Good talking with you! :hi:

[Ladyhawk]

60. Indeed, it would be an interesting study.

However, fundamentalism is currently seen as positive by society. In order for people to feel comfortable seeking treatment, society's opinion has to change. Unfortunately, that isn't likely to happen anytime in the near future.

I know my life was terribly affected by fundamentalism. It stifled my creativity and stunted my emotional development, among other things. If you would like to read a book that addresses this issue, I heartily recommend Leaving the Fold by Dr. Marlene Winell. It validated my experiences. I've re-read it many times.

Cheers.

:hi:

[etherealtruth]

15. I am so sorry

[geekgrrl]

17. I know how you feel- I still miss some people I lost to fundementalism-

My partner and I were great friends with a fun couple- we would go over to their place for holidays, have long, intelligent conversations about the world and politics. They had a wonderful little boy (who is probably like 10 but back then we knew him when he was born until he was 2ish) who we used to babysit. We adored this kid- babysat for free even after they moved about half an hour away.

Well, they started asking us to babysit on some weekday evening while they went to church. That was a little creepy and then they started to change- they became all uptight and shut down and not so friendly anymore. One night when we were babysitting and Joey knocked over his drink he shrank in fear that god would punish him! We were both so upset- how could a child be raised with such fear?

Then came the clincher. One night they came home after we babysat and thanked us for babysitting while they were "at church praying for our souls". That was the end of babysitting and the friendship!

Sadly, we do miss them and still think about them and their child from time to time.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

18. His soul dried up and cracked when he joined his FAKE Christian cult

Sorry for your loss

[qwghlmian]

19. Kinda reminds you of all the DUers who brag

that they stopped being friends with people because those friends were "repugs".

[Hardrada]

31. To approach this from another angle

We have kept GOP friends because they belong to my wife's liberal church!!

[Ladyhawk]

45. I cut off my relationship with my parents, but there were other...

...reasons besides a difference of opinion on politics. Unfortunately, their political beliefs were merely a reflection of other problems. My counselors, having met my family, agreed that my decision was the right one.

If someone thinks all Arabs should be deported or put into concentration camps, would you want to be friends with that person? The Republican Party has become radicalized. With some people, their Republican views are simply the manifestation of a sick soul.

All the Republicans I know are serious neocons or fundamentalists. Their beliefs reflect serious problems with bigotry and hatred. I've met moderate Republicans on this board and have found I like them. They are not filled with the bigotry and hatred of the right-wingers I know.

In short, the relationship I had with my family was TOXIC and was for years, even before I became a Democrat.

[qwghlmian]

47. if so, why do you not accept that that

friend of the original poster who turned "fundie" would think that the OP's views are also a manifestation of a "sick soul" that would turn the relationship "TOXIC" and that would be the reason that he would terminate it?

Why is it acceptable for one side to demonize the other but not vice versa?

[Ladyhawk]

49. It was a combination of factors that made the relationship toxic.

It would require a thesis for me to explain all of it to you. And quite frankly, I'm tired of people who haven't walked even a step in my moccasins second-guessing my decision. Really, it was the best decision I've made in years. I feel so much better now that I don't have to put up with bullshit like, "I think you're demon-possessed."

Two weeks after I cut off the relationship, my mother tried to have me committed to a mental institution. She was extremely controlling. I tried many times to fix the relationship, but it never worked. Believe me, I tried for YEARS. We had therapy sessions together, the whole nine yards.

It. Didn't. Work.

I won't write a thesis to explain the rest. It was obvious to everyone "in the know" that I had no other choice.

Here's a scenario maybe you can understand. I was like an abused spouse who kept coming back for more, hoping the other person had changed. Because I was disabled, adult protective services even became involved at one point.

I shouldn't have kept going back for more. Leaving was the only solution.

[qwghlmian]

50. Your case seems to be completely and

utterly justified. I have seen too many posts, though, here on DU, whose authors were proud to point out that they cut life-long relationships because the friend was a "repuke". It just seemed appropriate to mention these posts in the context of this thread, to show that intolerance exists on both sides.

I have quite a few friends. Some voted D in these elections, some R, some did not vote and some I have no idea about. I do not judge them by their political affiliation. I would not expect them to judge me by mine.

[Ladyhawk]

52. Yes. I am trying very hard not to fall into that trap.

It has been hard because the Republicans I know are also fundamentalists. :( I want to give people the benefit of the doubt, but because I have been hurt so often by people who are right-wingers, I balk.

I may need some time to get over the latest hurts. I've been through a lot lately. I won't be rude, but I don't necessarily want to try another close relationship with a fundy. Someday I may be able to deal with it more objectively.

[readmoreoften]

66. Some of us don't want to be abused by people that have

turned bloodthirsty and hateful.

Listen, I'm gay and I have no business being friends with someone who is an anti-gay fundamentalist. Life is tough enough.

[FreedomAngel82]

20. That is so sad

:hug: :cry: They truly are ruining all of our lives. It's the "with us or against us" mindset and brainwashing. Recently some upcoming film person made a documentary called "Brainwashing 101." Has anybody seen this? Someone told me about this and they claimed this person was the conservative Michael Moore. :shrug: All this is so sad and horrible.

[slybacon9]

24. me too...

my best friend in the world got married to a fundie, and soon found what i call "the glow".

Now he judges everyone and everything.
Including me.

says he feels bad for me, cuz he knows i am going to hell.

He knows that i am a really good person, but i am not saved.

I cant hang out with him anymore...

**sniff**

bummer too, he was the funniest guy i ever knew.

[porphyrian]

29. If any of my friends turn fundie, I'm looking out for pods. - n/t

[Lexingtonian]

32. it's what they do

Fundies these days are, well, participants in cults. The leaders get all the adherents to disconnect from other groups and friends 'outside' the cult/sect/religion.

They become spiritually dead to the world long before they physically die, these people do. They've traded the overall coldness but light-filledness of the world for the warmth of a group and a little pinhole in the blind of a dark room as source of light. Death is more comforting for them than living- coping with the challenges of life in the Modern, or transitional to Modern, world strikes them as Too Hard.

He won't have anything to tell you or talk about with you if you meet again. The world he lives in has only one source of inspiration and form of revelation, a very narrow range of meaningful experience and creativity, and you have declared all of that weak and foolish.

You've already said farewell to him. One by one our leaves fall...one by one our tales are told....

Here's the farewell song my .sig is taken from- it's Enya's "One By One" and 'about' her father dying, it's 'about' breaking up with her then-fiance (a little earlier), but arguably most 'about' choosing the real journey of Life (to the realest kind of God, to the fullness of living and experience of revelation there is the world) over all the substitutes people want her to embrace.

Here am I
at yet another goodbye!
He says Adios, says Adios,
and do you know why
she won't break down and cry?
- she says Adios, says Adios, Goodbye

One by one my leaves fall
One by one my tales are told

It's no lie
she is yearning to fly.
She says Adios, says Adios,
and now you know why
he's a reason to sigh
- she says Adios, says Adios, Goodbye
- she says Adios, says Adios, Goodbye

One by one my leaves fall
One by one my tales are told

My, oh my!
she was aiming too high.
He says Adios, says Adios,
and now you know why
there's no moon in her sky
- he says Adios, says Adios, Goodbye

No Goodbyes
for love brightens their eyes
Don't say Adios, say Adios
and do you know why
there's a love that won't die?
- don't say Adios, say Adios, Goodbye

- don't say Adios, say Adios, Goodbye
- don't say Adios, say Adios, Goodbye....

[rox63]

33. I still maintain some contact with my fundie friend

I had a close friend since I was 16. We're now both in our early 40's. She came from a very abusive family, and got married fairly young to a verbally and mentally abusive man. But since she was young, and he didn't beat or rape her, she thought he was a prize at the time. Fifteen years and a couple of kids later, they go through a bitter divorce that nearly resulted in her and the kids ending up homeless. Through all of this, I'm there for her as a friend, more like a sister really.

Eventually, she meets a man who is a fundie, but who cares very much for her, and treats her and the kids well. They fall in love, and eventually get married. She accepts Jesus and becomes a born-again right-wing fundie. All of a sudden, her non-religious, bisexual best-friend (me) becomes her new project. She and her new hubby are determined to save me as well. I tell them "No thanks", and try to explain to them why I don't agree with their point of view. After they tell me why I've got a one-way ticket to hell, the major chill begins.

Eventually, we get back in touch, and decide we can still be friends, as long as we don't discuss religion or politics. But politics has become one of my major interests. So it's a bit difficult to maintain this. She has recently moved to AZ, a couple of thousand miles away. So the conflict is somewhat less raw and present. We occasionally talk on the phone, or email. But it will never be the same. I didn't change. I'm still the same person she cried on and spilled her life out to over all those years.

What's a liberal, bisexual agnostic to do?

[Dr Fate]

36. I have a story that mirrors yours- down to minute details, in fact.

Even the Thundercats & D&D part- weird, huh? My Buddy tripped out after 9/11- he does not talk to any of us now- we dont even know where he is.

Funny how the same stories play out across the human experience.

[secular_warrior]

41. A few years ago I dated a girl who was mildy religious,

and I knew that starting out. But as time went on she got deeper into it, and wanted me to go to the activities.

I'm an atheist, have been since I was a teenager.

They tried to convert me - the worst was how my girlfriend acted toward me - as though I was possessed by Satan. I was upset, but I'm the type who likes to learn about people, so I went along with it for fun:

"I think.. dark forces.. have a grip on me.. I just can't seem to accept Jesus.. no matter how hard I try.. I don't know what's wrong with me.. will you help me.. please?"

I kept going like this for a few weeks - maybe it was wrong to play into their delusion, but I gained a lot of insight into human behavior/ group dynamic.

To understand these people, you have to understand that it is less about the religion itself and much more about their own problems which lead them to need the security of an overly controlling group, much like an other type of extremist.

A major point: they view you the same way you or I would view a Neo-Nazi - as someone very repulsive who just needs to hear the right thing to come back to the 'good side'.

ps.I'm from the liberal northeast, which goes to show that fundamentalism can exist anywhere - as long as there are people looking for something to die for.

[MadisonProgressive]

42. Same thing happened too me

It's a big burden. You'll deal with it though, just like I did.

[s1rkull]

43. Sad isn't it?

There's no accounting for brainwashing.

[Ladyhawk]

48. Welcome to DU, s1rkull.

It is very sad. I still dream about all the friends I lost to fundamentalism, sometimes nightly. I miss them, but some of them aren't even real people anymore. They turned into Jesusbots. :(

Sometimes I cry over losses that happened almost twenty years ago. I dream of my old friends and miss the good times we had. But the rift is now way too deep.

[s1rkull]

56. Thanks, Ladyhawk

Over the years I found the endless arguments to be futile and fulfilling, although I used to dive into it with both feet. It's definitely sad that some people think that it's wrong to remain friends with people who don't share their superstitions, and it happened to me a few years ago when a friend became religious and did the disappearing act; he even went through the whole speech about why he couldn't remain my friend etc... But, I'd known him for less than a year and it wasn't any great loss, but I'll digress. Sorry to hear about the multiple losses over long stretches of time. I'm still holding out for reason and logic to prevail on a much larger scale than at current.

[LittleClarkie]

57. I just about drove myself psychotic with that stuff

Some would say I succeeded :crazy:

I fought alot of depression and mind fucks to come out the other side with some kind of faith but without the baggage.

I'll find my own way, thank you very much. I rejected the automatic language, the lifestyle that said I had to get rid of everything from books to music to friends. I never understood how you're supposed to be kind and good and Christ-like to people who aren't supposed to be your friends. Jesus never seemed to act that way. In fact, he sought out people. He hung with them. He was very radical for his time, railing against the status quo. Jesus was a cool guy. His followers sometimes... not so much.

I had to decide that I was allowed to figure out what faith meant to me, the same as others had done for themselves. As long as I came at that quest honestly, I figured I was gonna be alright. Joy in the journey and all that. You don't actually ever get there, enlightenment-wise, I don't think.

But then I've met folks who had an addiction problem for whom their faith was a life preserver. And they were clutching it just about that tightly. God forbid you should try and have a discussion that challenged their way of thinking about their faith, even when you could tell they'd made a leap of logic or a misconception. One woman I talked to at my dad's nursing home insisted that in one story in the Bible, where infants are being thrown into a volcano, that this was abortion. I tried to point out that the infant was rather at the "post-abortion" stage, but she insisted that this was a form of abortion, since abortion was murder.

Then I found out her history as an alcoholic, and then I stopped arguing with her. I would not win against her and her faith life-preserver.

Maybe when one don't need your faith to save one's life so much, one can let go the deathgrip on the thing and allow some productive discussion about what does and what does not make sense. I hope so, because such people can be hard to take. I certainly don't get the impression of wisdom from them. If GWB isn't faking his religion, this is the kind of Christian I think he is. Such people tend toward black and white, and God forbid you try and tell them they're wrong on ANYTHING, even when they are.

Someone on DU pointed out that this rapture type theology is relatively new. I'd love to hear more about the history of that movement. It seems like this approach to faith has happened more in the last thirty years. It's almost a reaction against the regular church. I've seen people trying to convert friends or family away from our little Liberal Lutheran church, as if we were wrong and they were right. I'll stick with my little ELCA church, thanks. (one person had the gall to say, warningly, "Well, if you think you have time..." as if it were a race to get the RIGHT fire insurance before the end of time. Plech.)

So here I am, a Christian who swears like a sailor (just like my daddy). Whatchagonna do.

[depakid]

58. That is a very typical cult story

When you read the literature about people who get sucked into cults, it's replete with stories just like this.

It's a well known psychological phenomenon, which was described many years ago as "snapping"

There's a good intro site with databases on destructive cults and movements here:

http://www.rickross.com/

It includes some interesting notes and stories on deprogramming (which is probably the only way you'll ever get your friend back) here:

http://www.rickross.com/deprogramming.html

[joefree1]

61. Having been a fundie in my early teens

I've since had to develop a thick skin. Being senstive around a fundie is dangerous. You've really got to beware of all that guilt, fear, and conditional love.

As an eco-pagan I've learned to love nature and respect it's more harsh realities. I try to see life for what it is without all the dogma opiates. Education is the true and only salvation.

You've got to look at your friend as going through a sickness. It takes some a long time to work out the paranoia of fundamentalism.

[readmoreoften]

63. aw, panth

that's so sweet. a panther must love a friend a whole lot to give up 50% of his dead mice.

maybe he'll come back.
maybe the spell will be broken.

this cult is terrifying. how do we reclaim the ones it takes?

[neonplaque]

67. Been there, done that...

Its really sad. I was very good friends with this one guy during a period of his youth where he was questioning his beliefs... We had religious discussions occassionally and these normally resulted in him trying to 'convert' me.

Alas, he ended up falling back on the side of his upbringing (born-again christian) and he just started to ignore me, refused to return calls, etc. I'm not sure what I was more upset about -- that he thought he had to choose between his religion or our friends, or that he didn't have the respect to tell me he intended to severe ties.

Compassion my ass.

[Jackie97]

70. I am so sorry.

I remember when I was a fundamentalist. I didn't decide not to be friends with non-Christians. I was still friends with them. At the same time, the church did encourage not hanging out with them a lot. Me and my parents had enormous problems. I would talk to my pastor about them and he was like "It doesn't surprise me. Persecution comes with being a Christian". I was gettingn closer to the church than with my own family.

My family wasn't perfect. They did do shitty things, but so did I. To top it all off, I didn't accept my friend's homosexuality because I was a self-righteous Christian who thought I had to believe it was a choice or else I'd burn. Now, I just want so badly to get in touch with my friend and tell him I'm sorry and that I accept his homosexuality. Your friend might find himself in a similar position one day.

Now, my sister's the fundamentalist in the family. We used to be very close. However, a bad marriage came along followed by her "turning to God", and our relationship has not been the same since then. We feel like we can't talk to each other about our lifestyles even though we both know what they are. I just don't want to argue with my sister. I'm also having to hide who I am to a point from her daughter, who I've been very close to over the years. She doesn't want her daughter knowing yet that everybody's not a Christian. I do think the holding back oneself is more on my end than on hers. She talks about her religion in the open. I don't talk about my lack of religion or liberal ideas in the open. It's very, very rare that I do that. As a result, I mostly expose who I am where I live now and on the internet. People who know me on the internet would never believe they were looking at the same person if they saw how well I hold back in my hometown. I'd like to come out of the closet. This isn't exactly a secret I can keep forever. "Hey town, I'm not a fundamentalist anymore, and haven't been for a few years. Oh, and I've advocated against the war, for pro-choice, and for gay right values". LOL.

I guess I had to get some my own junk out. I guess I thought I could relate it somehow. If it hurts you that badly, then maybe you should get in touch with your friend and see if he still feels the same way. He might still be a fundamentalist, but he might have calmed down quite a bit. When I first became a fundamentalist, I had all sorts of strange rules. I eventually dropped some of the more strange rules though. I hope I'm not setting you up for a fall by suggesting this.

[newportdadde]

73. Reading this great post I decided to step back 11 years back to highschool

I lived in a rural community a few miles outside of 'town', I liked a girl who went to one of the local churches, it was a different church, they had their own school, even flew a flag, cultish looking back on it.

This girl had been through a lot of hardships in life, both parents had been alcoholics and had given her up to her grandparents then took off to start new lives independent of each other. I had known her since we were 5 and as she got older she became more involved in this church.

I got invited to the Christmas program and felt the bullseye on me for conversion, met the reverend and his 10 kids etc. I started to back off, then over the summer she met a guy who wanted to be a reverend. She knew my feelings on religion, I wasn't into it and as a gentlemen I stepped back our senior year so she could date this fella.

Senior year went by and during graduation she handed me a bible. Inside it said "I hope you find God someday". My first thought was to trash it I felt insulted but I kept it, I'm actually reading it slowly now(new testement at least).

One year went by I was in college when she called one night out of the blue and we talked about going out again but she said she had to choose Jesus over me.. funny I didn't know it was exclusive choice lol. She then got married and within a year had a child.

One more years go by and she calls up out of the blue and says "If you like a girl fight for her" I was pretty baffelled(how as I suppose to fight Jesus? When I started to I always lost.) but I remmebered her advice as it gave me the confidence to ask out my now wife and great mother of my son.

I haven't seen her in 10 years or talked to her in over 8. My sister ran into her 5 years ago at some function and she asked about me when my sister said I was married she coldly said "I wonder how much he had to pay for her?" Bizzare....

Anyways just wanted to throw in my two cents and to tell the original poster and others here I know how it feels to loose a friend like that.