"Concentration Camps in U.S."....how real is this???

[whistle]

...Here is a site with pictures and locations. Has any MSM investigated this to determine if in fact the story is true?


Photos, testimonials, commentary regarding detention / concentration camps in America run by foreign troops -- eventually to be filled with patriots who oppose the New World Order when martial law comes?

http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Concentration_Camps /

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/camps_confirmed.htm

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/FEMA-Concentration...

http://www.greatdreams.com/concentration.htm

[mark414]

1. take a peek around those sites...

they're all off their rockers

[Placebo]

2. Ya gotta be INSANE to believe those are "concentration camps"

as the people on those websites obviously are

please

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mattclearing]

21. Sorry, I declare bullshit.

I'm not willing to believe they couldn't be capable of that at some point, but not since 96.

And not 600.

And not shaped like skulls.

Maybe one, but not all three.

And box cars? Link? Photo?

No way.

[thecai]

27. Sorry To Disappoint You

Seattle gvt. denied the existence of one, for years, until so many people found it, now it is The Federal Detention Center. Okanogan County Commissioner David Schultz demanded to know why there is one in Okanogan County, WA (near Canadian border), there was a news segment on KXLY4 in Spokane on Feb. 25, 2003 about it. It accompanied a link to a site listing over 600 camps. The following day the link was disabled, (but not before I had printed it).
Certain professionals boast of the camps, (I cannot say who, or my post will get deleted.)
See one of my posts below, for more info...

[mattclearing]

30. I'm not disappointed.

I'm just saying, I think that kind of allegation with that little information is simply short of credible.

Reports get pulled because people in power don't want them to be seen.

But they also get pulled because they are bullshit.

I'm willing to believe elements of this could be possible, but all of your story taken together is just utterly mind-bogglingly silly.

I googled it. I read some of what came up. It all seems pretty weak.

[thecai]

34. Have You Ever Flown At Night?

Some of "the skulls" are lit up in bright, red lights. Especially CA and OK.

[mattclearing]

37. Then why are there no pictures?

I'll remember the next time I head out west to keep an eye out, but you'd think with all the people out there scared shitless of the Administration, there'd be a bit more info you could point to?

[thecai]

43. Maybe Not Everyone

Is "scared shitless of the Administration". Maybe that's why many of us post unpopular information. Raising awareness is important, IMO.
Here's another suggestion: get a prison guard drunk and listen to him boast of what they will do when * declares marshall awww.

[mattclearing]

44. I don't care if your information is popular.

I only care if you have evidence.

EVIDENCE. You've shown me nothing but a lot of cheap talk.

You have failed to persuade me. Bedtime.

[thecai]

47. Perhaps Because You Already DO Know

Sleep tight. Don't waste any of your precious time conducting your own search.

[mattclearing]

48. I searched. Twice. I told you that.

You can't blame me for being skeptical. You haven't provided anything to support what you are saying.

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

[Dookus]

134. Why would your post get deleted

for mentioning professionals? It violates no rule.

[thecai]

137. My Posts Get Deleted

Frequently. (All but one deleted on this thread were mine, I believe).
"Too much information", would be MY guess, as the reason. Some posters are offended by the facts, and I suspect they push "alert".
But these camps are real. As you drive alongside one, all you see are small hills. Everything is hidden from view. Some of the "alleged" camps are blacked out on satellite pictures.

[Dookus]

145. Hitting alert doesn't

automatically get a post deleted. The mods have to agree that it breaks a rule.

There is no rule against posting valid information.

[vpigrad]

3. I think those sites are run by trolls...

to make people who question why those places exist in the US look bad. It's a nice misinformation tactic.

This, of course, leads to the question of what all of those empty, barb-wired surrounded places are for. Why were they built?

[Journeyman]

4. Would these be the same "concentration camps" . . .

people worried about back during the '60s?

[whistle]

6. Don'no, that's why I posted the thread....

[thecai]

49. KXLY 2-25-03

Concentration Camps in Okanagon County?

Okanogan County Commissioner Dave Schulz says he's convinced his county is a designated home for a ``concentration camp'' in case of civil unrest.
Schulz says he has copies of documents, although he hasn't been able to confirm the rumor.

Federal officials say they have no idea where the commissioner got the notion of civilian detention camps.

A Federal Emergency Management Agency spokeswoman says it sounds like an urban legend and a Pentagon spokesman says he's not aware of any planned camps in Okanogan County or elsewhere.

Rumors of planned U.S. detention facilities appear on dozens of Web sites.

Schulz says he thinks the plan has been written in the event of a national emergency where martial law is necessary, and hopes it never becomes necessary.


by
(2/25/2003 3:52:00 PM)
©2000-2004 KXLY Broadcasting Group. All Rights Reserved.

[thecai]

53. The Response Is Always The Same

Denial, calling the information "urban legend' or "conspiracy", and more. I've seen (and circulated) dozens of satellite pictures, then Mapquest discontinues aerial views, I've interviewed many witnesses, links, maps, and pictures disappear, makes ya wonder what are they hiding?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

5. Can I get cable and three squares?? What if I vote for shrub in his

fourth term, can I get a reprieve?? What about volleyball, will there be volleyball? Suddenly I am thinking about Tim Robbins in The Shawshank Redemption.... spooky.

[thecai]

55. The Prisons Manufacture The Prison Food

You'll only get whatever the inmates grow, manufacture, and prepare. I don't know if you'll be able to purchase tv's in the camps like in regular prisons.

[Turbineguy]

7. Yeah, but these guys

in the websites seem to think they'll get the slammer if "Democrats" get elected.

Huge irony, really.

[kdmorris]

8. Err, Ok

I only got through part of that first link and looked at the pictures on the second, but I wonder why, in two of the pictures on the second link, the signs are in Serbian? The say Srebrenca {so many kilometers}.

I guess that's to prove that we let SERBIANS build concentration camps here? Or something?

Not that that necessarily disqualifies completely this assumption, just sheds large amounts of doubt on it.

[Art_from_Ark]

26. The signs are not in Serbian

otherwise they would be written in a Cyrillic alphabet.

Perhaps this was a training area during the Kosovo conflict

[kdmorris]

62. Good Point...

That's a good idea, too. I just found it strange that the sign pointed out the way to Srebrenca and listed the mileage in kilometers (which most American's don't use or understand). I could go with a training area.

[Warren DeMontague]

64. Well, if it's 17 KILOMETERS from Srebenca, that gives a pretty

good clue as to where it is, doesn't it? (Here's a clue- it's not in Mississippi.)

And again, why the F*ck is anyone on DU going to take the word of the self-described "Mississippi State Militia" (which sounds like a right-wing white supremacist nutjob outfit If I've ever heard one) about ANYTHING?

[kdmorris]

66. I have no idea

Most of the stuff on those sites talk about how Clinton is going to shove us all in a concentration camp, because he is letting the UN take over, yada yada yada.

They don't seem any kinder to Bush, but I agree with your assessment (right-wing white supremacist nutjobs).

[Art_from_Ark]

126. The sign is bogus

It says 17.5 kilometers (11 miles) to Srebrenica and .5 kilometer to Kladanj. That would mean that Kladanj would be at most 18 kilometers from Srebrenica, yet a check of a map of Bosnia-Herzogovina shows that the two towns are at least 60 kilometers apart.

Also, Srebrenica is in a very hilly area, not flatlands like the photos.

[Warren DeMontague]

128. Well, I guess that proves it then.

The ARE Concentration Camps in Mississippi. Help!!!!!!!!!!!

[Art_from_Ark]

150. I never said anything about concentration camps in Mississippi

I was merely pointing out the error in your conclusion that "if the sign says Srebrenica, it can't be in Mississippi"

This area was apparently used for war games. The army does that sort of thing all the time.

[Warren DeMontague]

155. ...In case you didn't notice, that's the point of this crackhead thread.

My point was, those pictures could be of anything, and they could be from anywhere.

[Art_from_Ark]

157. I will agree that the pictures themselves prove nothing

They could very easily be from Mississippi, as far as that goes . I doubt they are from Srebrenica, though, since that area is extremely hilly, and the alphabet in use in that part of Bosnia-Herzogovina (which is called the Republic of Srpska) is Cyrillic, like Russian. What's more, the distances cannot be correct.

Sounds like leftover army war games materials to me.

[Warren DeMontague]

158. The pictures prove nothing, and the websites are either

white supremacy right-wingut militia sites, or they are recycling "information" which was generated by similar groups during the Clinton administration. Which pretty much seals the deal for me.

[Art_from_Ark]

68. The military uses metric measurements

What's more, if they wanted to "simulate" Serbia, they would use kilometers on the road signs. However, if they used actual Cyrillic letters on the signs, it might be too confusing (especially considering the military maps would be in English). So my guess is that it was just some kind of training set-up.

[Warren DeMontague]

109. So, what part does a "Simulated Serbia" play in the

Mississippi "Concentration Camp" plan?

Is there a rational narrative to this shit? Or is it more fun to go "Help! There are Concentration Camps in the US!!!" because some gaggle of toothless deliverance retreads posts a bunch of pictures of a field, a ramshackle "guard tower" and some barbed wire.

That could be fucking anywhere.

Allow me to reiterate. That is what you have here, in the way of "evidence". A field. A Tower. Some Barbed Wire.

Ooooooh, shit, I'm scared now!!

Alberto Gonzales trying to weasel his way out of the Geneva convention, that scares me. This kind of rightwing nutbar shit doesn't.

[TR Fan]

99. Technically correct, but...

the language spoken in Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Croatia is Serbo-Croatian, which can (and is) written in both the Latin and the Cyrillic alphabets. I've seen many signs like that in Sarajevo.

[Art_from_Ark]

119. Welcome to Srebrenica

[Igel]

101. You're right. THEY'RE WRITTEN IN CROATIAN!!

Or Bosnian. Terribly hard to tell the difference with just a few words.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

9. This is old stuff. The planning is real, but the actual

properties are not set up.

[thecai]

18. They've Been Set Up For YEARS.

Google concentration camps in America. There were hundreds, ten years ago, I don't know how many are complete now.
Most are near water companies, railroad tracks, airports, and golf courses.

[bonito]

10. Well has any

body done a real investagation on the subject, all I here is gossip, maybe truth out has a comment on the subject?

[thecai]

19. I've Done Years of Research On Them

Google "State By State Index of Concentration Camps". There are several sites that offer a list, with addresses and locations, you can view some of them on globeXplorer.
Repeal The PATRIOT Acts.

[thecai]

81. Common Dreams Often Reports On This

And of course, Alex Jones and Jeff Rense, et al.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

147. Rense

So, the jews are setting up concentration camps?

[ck4829]

11. It's Oliver North's fault.

Check out my latest thread.

[FlavaKreemSnak]

12. They are just the FEMA camps for when the gov declares martial law

Most of them are not ready yet though, and they only have enough for a few million people.

[thecai]

20. Alaska's Will Hold 2 Million

Many will hold hundreds of thousands, a few will hold millions. The one in Alaska is in a remote area accessible by aircraft only.

[The Magistrate]

29. As A Point Of Curiousity, Ma'am

How is it proposed to handle the logistics of transporting two million people to a place accessible only by air...?

[thecai]

31. By Aircraft

One flight at a time. You couldn't GUESS that?

[mattclearing]

36. *slaps forehead* n/t

[thecai]

41. Perhaps You Could Tell Me Why

When I go to my saved AOL News articles concerning this issue, I get "Sorry. You are denied access to that area"?

[mattclearing]

42. Perhaps because you don't know how to use a computer?

Who uses AOL???

[thecai]

46. I've Already

...explained (in other threads) I lack computer skills. THAT'S no secret. But up until my house was broken into while I not at home and my phone and computer were tampered with, I COULD access all my favorites.
Two days after I threw my phone away, I was invited back to a forum I had been banned* from.
*for posting articles and links to concentration camps and the Patriot Acts.
Go figure. And now you know I'm a "target".

[The Magistrate]

40. How Large Is The Air-Strip, Ma'am?

What size machines can it handle?

[thecai]

54. Apparently Large Enough To

Fly in the building materials, supllies, contracters, staff, etc.

[The Magistrate]

59. What Do You Mean By Apparently, Ma'am?

The arithmetic of this sort of thing fascinates me. For any decent sized transport machine nowadays, several thousand feet of runway is required. This is tens of thousands of tonnes of concrete, and reinforcing materials, which would have to be flown in in penny packets by bush planes Heavy machinery, such as levelling scrapers and rollers, would be required, and hundreds of laborers, and a good deal of fuel. Then, once in operation, something like two hundred persons per flight would seem reasonable for "back of the envelope" calculations, and suggests something on the order of ten thousand flights would be required to move two million people. Fifty flights a day, working round the clock, would be an extraordinarily efficient operation. If these moved just people, it would require about eight months. But of course, two million people, even on starvation rations, would require something on the order of a thousand tonnes of food each day, which would require, at twenty tonnes per flight, fifty flights a day, and so there would quickly some a crossing point where the need to fly in supplies would stretch out the capability of flying in new prisoners to a degree resembling Zeno's Paradox. Water has been left out of the calculation, but water for two million people is a daunting and weighty thing to organize as well, even if near a river. The thing really does not seem a particularly practicable by air; it is the sort of thing that requires railroads....

[thecai]

83. Aircraft and Railroads?

Well, maybe the it's the same contracters who built the pyramids.
I don't HAVE all the answers. I simply raise awareness to the injustice and corruption permeating our nation.

[Zhade]

92. Oh, that was BEAUTIFULLY done.

Bravo!

[arwalden]

125. That's Pure Artwork!

[geniph]

132. Kind of puts the Berlin Airlift to shame, doesn't it?

I'm quite familiar with Okanogan county, and believe me, getting ANYTHING in there in mass quantities would be one hellacious undertaking.

[Filimon]

13. hee hee hee

My goodness!

We are just going to have to do better than this.

One pic is obviously from former yugoslavia because srebreniza is certainly NOT 10 miles from anywhere near the US.

This is shameful in its stupidity.

I wonderwhy I even bothered to comment?

[Filimon]

14. Can we choose?

On link had lists of all known camps. Can we choose which one to attend for reeducation? Come on - between Alaska and Hawaii? I want Hawaii!

[mattclearing]

22. We deserve this, for this ridiculous thread. n/t

[thecai]

84. Justice?

Is that what you call justice? Deserving of concentration camp incarceration "for this ridiculous thread"???
That explains a lot.

[OneBlueSky]

15. anyone think that BushCo ISN'T capable of this? . . . n/t

.

[thecai]

23. "Disappearing" Links

I attempted to post some of the links I have saved, but many say "Page Expired", "Error", "Page Could Not Be Displayed", etc.
(My computer was "tampered with" a couple years ago, that could be why I cannot access some of my saved links).

[mattclearing]

25. A likely story. n/t

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mattclearing]

35. You don't know anything about me.

Just because I'm shooting you down on this doesn't mean I don't believe in other things.

9/11 LIHOP/MIHOP? Sure. Election Fraud? Fine.

But your story is ridiculous, and you offer practically no backup.

But feel free to attack me. It's just one more ridiculous unfounded thing you've said.

[thecai]

38. I Suggest You Conduct A Google Search

Maybe the links will work on your computer.
I didn't "attack" you, please do not falsely accuse me. You are the one in attack-mode.

[mattclearing]

39. I said I did that in Post #30.

I googled concentration camps in the US. It brought up three relevant sites, and a bunch of unrelated stuff.

And there were little in the way of pictures.

If you can't prove it, you shouldn't say it. It's embarassing.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thebigidea]

96. so if you think your computer was tampered with, why use it?

if strange powers behind our comprehension fucked up your computer YEARS ago, what the hell is your excuse for not getting a new one? Damnit, all of your secrets could be getting into the wrong hands. Why are you risking it all on a compromised computer?

ps. check behind the sink. disconnect the blue wire first.

[thecai]

110. Personal

You cannot communicate without cussing and belittling? Then don't waste my time and I won't dignify your sarcastic questions with any answers.

[Igel]

146. At the risk of pointing out the obvious,

considering the amount of planning and the sophistication required of the logistics ... and the natural reaction he'd get from most Americans ... No, I don't think he's capable of doing this.

Unless he's actually a genius that makes Einstein look like a rather dull sea urchin, and a magician that would put Gandalf and the other Maya taken together to shame.

[Zynx]

16. Mmmm....Patriots, New World Order....

Ahhh, that's *right* wing tinfoil hat stuff, not leftie tinfoil hat.

[ElectroPrincess]

24. Agreed, it doesn't get much stranger than this ...

FEMA AND THE REX 84 PROGRAM.

[raysr]

32. http://100777.com/doc/136

http://100777.com/doc/136 Reagan-FEMA

[achtung_circus]

122. I have concerns with any site that says this:

" #1) You must believe everything that the Zionists say about the Holocaust.

(Sorry, I don't believe everything the Zionists say about anything, including the Holocaust. I believe that like any historical event, it must be backed up with facts and it should be freely researched and debated. Zionists are denying the freedom of speech concerning the Holocaust. Also, the Zionists use the Holocaust as a license to kill Palestinians and steal their land. On top of that, the Zionists use the Holocaust to elevate Jewish suffering above all others' suffering.)"


Tin Foil

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

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This week is our first quarter 2005 fund drive. Democratic
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[Hatalles]

63. asl?

[kdmorris]

65. I feel like such a loser...

DU Grovelbot has more posts than I do!!

See what happens when technology runs wild?

[frictionlessO]

70. YAAAAAAAAY!!!! Grovel-bot!!! I luuuurve the grovel-bot!!!

Donate!!
Mwahahahha!!

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thecai]

51. I Question The "90%"

I recall seeing sci-fi movies years ago that were considered "conspiracy and fantasy", but now much of it is old news.
That's a good post, tho. jdots.
I had to hurry and print this thread before more disappeared.

[Warren DeMontague]

52. Wow. That's some impressive research you've uncovered there.

The first site has "studies" on how Prince Charles might be the anti-christ, and how "Al Gore" = 666.. in ASCII, no less.

The second site comes to us from the "Mississippi Militia".. Why do I get the feeling these were the same people who were convinced that Bill Clinton was sending UN black helicopters to force their daughters to put condoms on bananas in public school?

Sorry, but it looks like you've found the deep, detailed investigative work of a bunch of religious end-times wackjobs, and right-wing white supremacist yahoos... I'm not saying there aren't real reasons to be concerned with trends towards overstepping constitutional bounds of power where the Bush admin. is concerned, but this is right up there with the Alien Autopsy video. Total Bullshit, and of the Low Budget toothless crank variety, to boot.

[thecai]

57. Black Helicopters

I live in the flight path of black helicopters, I see at least 2 a day.
Social Security = 42 USC 405 & 666.

Prisons are highly profitable slave-factories already, the gvt. prospers from incarcerations. Search for any prison website in any state, click on "industries". Prisons could maintain the country.

on edit: Prison Links (click on any state, then "industries")
http://www.doc.wa.gov/general/links.htm

[Warren DeMontague]

60. Really. And what is it they're doing? Is the UN Sending Them? Satan?

The Illuminati? The Pope?

As far as the prison/industrial complex, hell yes it's out of control... I never said it wasn't.

The way to fight that is to lobby to bring some sanity to the ridiculous drug war, first off.

But spreading wackjob babble about black helicopters and the "Anti-Christ" isn't terribly productive... at least not on my planet. But, really, enjoy. Knock yourself out.

[thecai]

79. "Sent By" Nearby Air Force Base

Who suggested anti-Christ? You? Although, martial law (and concentration camps) doesn't seem very Christ-like, does it?

[Warren DeMontague]

87. It's hard enough to get people to take seriously the very real threats to

liberty this Administration is unquestionably engaged in... Indefinite detention in places like Gitmo, relaxing of torture conventions, the Patriot act, all kinds of scary shit... floating a lot of nonsense from sites put up by illiterate right-wingers and religious end-times cranks hurts the cause because it makes anyone who questions the very real anti-liberty agenda of This Administration sound like as much of a kook as the folks who constitute your "sources" on this.

I notice you haven't spent a whole lot of time in this thread backing up your hyperbole, and even less time addressing the very real questions about just what exactly the flimsy pieces of "evidence" you've posted prove. To wit: The second site you link to, the one brought to us by the "Mississippi State Militia", the one with the oh-so-scary pictures of an empty field, a bit of barbed wire, and what might be a guard tower (shit, that proves it, I guess!) has a sign that says "Srebenca 17 Km." Now, maybe that is talking about Srebenca, Mississippi. Or maybe the "Mississippi State Militia" is so fucking retarded that they can't even master Photoshop enough to block out the sign that shoots holes through their pathetic wannabe pieces of "evidence".... Now, as for "who suggested Anti-Christ" (I guess when you're on as familiar a basis with the subject matter as you seem to be, using "The" becomes redundant) the first site you link to contains a number of links to "studies" pertaining to whether or not Prince Charles is THE Anti-Christ. Or Al Gore. Or some other such blabbering nonsense.

One last thing.. these black helicopters.. are they the same ones the right-wing white supremacy kooks were convinced Clinton was sending to bring the US under UN Control? Or are they different... Because a number of these sites you reference as sources seem to believe that this "martial law" and these "concentration camps" are not a product of Bush and the Neo-Cons, but rather are a left-wing plot to establish socialism in the US, steal all the guns from millions of rednecks, and stamp out Christianity to boot.

Is this true? Were these "Concentration Camps" started by Bill Clinton, as your sources seem to suggest? Is UN Mandated Socialism the threat? Racial Mixing? Gun Control? Birth Control?

It would help those of us you're trying to work up with your baseless alarmism just what, exactly, it is that you think is happening... and who precisely is doing it.

[thecai]

88. Many Were In Place BEFORE Clinton

Does it really matter WHO started them? More importantly, what matters is WHO is going to stop them. There are corrupt Democrats AS WELL as corrupt Republicans. Some are "in bed" together. Bush the first promoted a New World Order. Reagan "put the teeth in FEMA".
Jesus was not republican NOR democrat, but He said "As you have done to the least of these, the poor, the needy, the prisoners, you have done unto Me". Matt. 25:36-46
Jesus also said there are many anti-Christs, even in His day...

[Warren DeMontague]

89. Mmmmmmmmkay. Bye-Bye. nt

[libodem]

56. god say it's not true

[thecai]

58. I Wish To God It Wasn't True

Repeal the Patriot Acts.

[Warren DeMontague]

61. It's not true.

The truth sucks, no doubt about it.... but this particular stripe of penny ante right-wing kook crap isn't true.

[slaveplanet]

72. I can't verify

the poster's sites , and haven't even bothered to check those sites.
But like the old saying goes ...Truth is Stranger than fiction...How about Russian concentration camps on US soil....

http://statedepartmentwatch.org/GulagWrangell.htm

A massive Russian gulag concentration camp has been found on the American Wrangell Island in the Arctic Ocean (71° North, 178° West).

Photographs show acres of buildings, storage tanks, and roads built by Russians. Abandoned drums and tanks litter the landscape. A guard tower keeps out villagers from nearby Rodgers Harbor at its southeast location on the 3000-square-mile island.

“This is an astounding revelation. I call upon the President and Congress for immediate on-site investigation of this gulag on U. S. soil,” Olson demanded. “The U. S. government should de-classify all the spy satellite photos of Wrangell with its Russian gulag from the 1950s to the present.”

Wrangell Island was discovered and made part of the United States in August 1881 with the landing of famed explorer John Muir and the crew of U. S. Revenue Marine ship Thomas Corwin under the command of Capt. Calvin Leighton Hooper. The landing at the mouth of the Clark River was illustrated by Muir in his book “The Cruise of the Corwin”. Two weeks after the Corwin took possession, USS John Rodgers conducted a complete survey of the island, which turned out to equal the size of Rhode Island and Delaware combined. (snip)....pics provided

[Warren DeMontague]

73. Truth is stranger than fiction, certainly

... but that doesn't mean that, say, Prince Charles is the "anti-Christ".

[slaveplanet]

74. Ok..that is one whacked out site

the original poster listed, and certainly there must be other examples...but I couldn't find where it claims definitively, Charles is THE "anti-christ"....in context it does says this...snip-Because of the opposites found in word-number studies, these correlations with Prince Charles name and the prophecy of 666 do not necessarily prove a conclusion he is the anti Christ or even an anti Christ. They could actually indicate a potential opposite, that he will in the final analysis be a principal force for good in the world. -snip

[Warren DeMontague]

75. Well, that's certainly a relief.

*wipes sweat from brow, wonders whether it's time to alphabetize the sock drawer...*

[muriel_volestrangler]

76. Wrangel Island is part of Russia

and acknowledged by the USA as such. See, for instance, the State Department page on it.

"None of the islands or rocks above were included in the U.S. purchase of Alaska from Russia in 1867, and they have never been claimed by the United States, although Americans were involved in the discovery and exploration of some of them."

So the existence of a Soviet camp on the island is hardly surprising.

[slaveplanet]

77. wrongel

the Fact sheet is poppycock...and even if you want to swallow the Kissinger /Baker lies....the camp was documented long before the purported 1990 handover.

Wrangel was annexed by The US in 1881 and was NOT part of the Alaska purchase.

http://statedepartmentwatch.org/FactSheet.htm

FALSE “FACT SHEET” ISSUED BY U. S. STATE DEPARTMENT TO DISGUISE
ITS GIVEAWAY OF 8 ALASKAN ISLANDS AND VAST RESOURCE-RICH SEABEDS
TO THE RUSSIANS; LOSSES ESTIMATED IN BILLIONS OF BARRELS OF OIL
AND HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF POUNDS OF FISH ANNUALLY

The U. S. State Department has issued a false “fact sheet” in order to disguise its giveaway
of eight Alaskan islands and vast resource-rich seabeds to the Russians, it was reported by Carl
Olson, Chairman of State Department Watch, a foreign policy watchdog group headquartered in Washington, D. C.

Falsehoods about the American history of the eight islands, the negotiations over the
U.S.-Russia maritime boundary line, and the current status of demands by the Russians are in a
fact sheet titled “Status of Wrangel and Other Arctic Islands” issued May 20, 2003.

Completely untrue in the fact sheet is the statement, “None of these islands or rocks
above were included in the U. S. purchase of Alaska from Russia in 1867….” The treaty in
1867 includes Copper Island along with its adjacent Sea Lion Rock and Sea Otter Rock.
In negotiating the treaty Secretary of State William Seward was willing to leave one Aleutian
island to the Russians, Bering Island, which is to the west of Copper. The treaty language
states at the end of Article 1, “…to the meridian of one hundred and ninety-three degrees
west <167 degrees east> longitude, so as to include in the territory conveyed the whole of
the Aleutian islands east of that meridian.” That meridian runs between Bering and Copper.

Also untrue is the assertion, “…they have never been claimed by the United States,
although Americans were involved in the discovery and exploration of some of them.”
Wrangell Island was discovered and annexed into the United States in 1881 by Americans.
U. S. Revenue Marine ship Thomas Corwin under the commanded by Captain Calvin
Leighton Hooper landed on Wrangell Island. Among the landing party was the famous
explorer John Muir, who wrote of this addition of a 3000-square mile island for America
in his book “The Cruise of the Corwin.”

[Art_from_Ark]

124. Wrangell Island is part of Alaska

http://www.wrangell.com/visitors/index.html

[muriel_volestrangler]

130. Check the latitude and longitude

71° North, 178° West. This is due north of the eastern end of the Russian mainland. Wrangell Island, Alaska is off SE Alaska. Both are named after Baron von Wrangel, who was in charge of a lot of the Russian exploration of eastern Siberia and Alaska.

The one with Russian buildings on has had a few people land on it - the first attempt to settle it was made on behalf of Canada, but the new Soviet Union chucked them off. Since the island was first talked about by the inhabitants of the mainland (Wrangel searched for it without success) and the first Western sighting was by Captain Kellet of the British Navy while searching for John Franklin, the American claim to it (because they landed and planted a flag, but never settled it) is fairly thin, and the US government never pushed it hard. Obviosly there are a few diehards at "State Department Watch" who think it would still be a good move for the USA to claim ownership of a few isolated islands north of Russia. Thank God for some diplomats at the State Dept, I say.

[slaveplanet]

151. hmmm

...the American claim to it (because they landed and planted a flag, but never settled it) is fairly thin...


If this is the criteria , think of how many British claims are THIN....

The Americans included John Muir....and they didn't just plant a blimey flag...they extensively surveyed it and ANNEXED it.....it was unclaimed at the time of the Alaska purchase.....what gives the State department the right to give away 3000 square miles without consent.In secret...

http://statedepartmentwatch.org/GiveawaySummary.htm

Wrangell Island: At 3,000 square miles, it is by far the largest of the five (equal to
Rhode Island and Delaware together). It was first landed on and formally taken into
U. S. possession on August 12, 1881, by direction of Captain Calvin Leighton Hooper
aboard U. S. Revenue Marine (Coast Guard) ship Thomas Corwin. Among the landing
party going ashore onto Wrangell was the famed explorer John Muir. He wrote about
his "notable addition...to the national domain" in his book "The Cruise of the Corwin".
In September 1881 USS Rodgers conducted an
extensive survey of the island under Navy Lieutenant Robert M. Berry. Wrangell was
named in honor of the Baltic Baron Ferdinand Petrovich von Wrangell, who had
conducted Arctic forays but never sighted nor landed on the island. (Note: Another
Wrangell Island exists near Juneau. It is not involved in this issue.)

[muriel_volestrangler]

154. Isn't that the State Department's job?

To decide what is worth pursuing in international relations, and what isn't worth it? With no American colonists on it, but it being known of by the inhabitants of Russia, the American claim was indeed thin.

What British claims are you thinking of? A lot of the 'British Antarctic Territory' is indeed disputed (though no-one is pushing their claims now anyway). What other uninhabited islands are you concerned about?

[slaveplanet]

156. I'm sure the state Department would

love to have the power to give away ,as many seemingly insignificant atolls , for god who know's what..brokered in some secret deal ... but as part of their job description ???

The Fact is Wrangel was annexed by the US , was not settled by Americans , but was settled by Russians who built a gulag on US soil.

No it's not worth it , the oil and fish resources are probably worth billions, and we don't even know what we recieved in return.

and if it's on the Up and Up , then why all the secrecy?

and you still haven't answered why there is a Russian gulag on a US annexed island in the 1950s before all the disputes came to light....

[muriel_volestrangler]

159. If you look back to post #130

you'll see that there was an attempt to claim it for Canada in the 1920s - and the Russians chucked them off then. The Russians were the only government interested in an icebound island off their north coast in the 1920s (Muir, when he landed, didn't even know it was an island):

Wrangel Island is off of the coast of Siberia, and is part of Russia, but in the early 20th century, the US and the British Empire also held contested claims to the land. Stefansson promoted the theory of the "friendly Arctic," which was that anyone who had common sense could live off of the land at even the northernmost areas of the Arctic. In 1921, motivated by both a desire to prove his theory as well as to make money (from the lectures and books that would follow, as well as his plan to obtain land rights on Wrangel Island after "claming" it for Canada), Stefansson sent 3 young Americans, 1 young Canadian, and a young Inuit woman to Wrangel Island. (Notably, Stefansson, as he had done before, stayed home). He sent them instructions to buy enough supplies in Seattle to last them six months, even though the expedition was slated to last at least a year. The idea was that the young men, with the help of Native hunters, would learn to live off of the land and thrive. No doubt you can see where this is headed...
...
What Stefansson did not tell them was that neither the Candian nor the British governments supported his venture, and that they were extremely wary about the idea of getting into a land dispute with the newly Communist Russian governmetn. The American State Department, over the course of the expedition, ruled that the island belonged to the Russians, and refused to give Stefansson any money to finance the relief boat (to refresh supplies and relieve the explorers after a year on the island, between June and August of 1922). Both the Canadians and the Brits also refused to help, and going to the Russians was not an option.

http://www.modernmuslima.com/archives/2004_03_07_archiv...

'Annexing' it consisted of the crews of a couple of American boats saying "it's American". The Russians did the same in 1911. Realistically, the USA would have had to start a war to enforce a claim to it - it's far closer to the Russian mainland than Alaska, and getting to it is a literal expedition.

[slaveplanet]

160. Kettel did not find Wrangel

He only sighted the much smaller Herald island...

The small Herald Island, only 8 km2, is a massive chunk of granitic gneiss jutting 380 m above the sea. In 1849, a British search party discovered the island while looking for a lost explorer, and named it after the rescue ship. It was another 20 years before an American whaling ship discovered the larger Wrangel Island, 60 km west of Herald. It was named for the explorer and Russian Navy Lieutenant F. P. von Vrangel who had searched for the island after hearing about it from the native people of Chukchi. He traveled from Chukotka over the ice by dog sled several times in 1821-1823 but never reached the island. http://www.wild-russia.org/bioregion1/1-wrangel/1_wrang...

Muir did not know it was an Island because it was icebound and impossible to verify in the 19th century, although He surely must have had a good idea it was from the Chukchi native legend....

Can you produce any treaty where Wrangel was ceded before the secret agreement in Bush41 era?

--the USA would have had to start a war to enforce a claim to it---

possibly , but it seems the State Department had it's hands full saving another island during much of the 20th century....

Wrangel In the 1920's = not so valuable
Wrangel today = very valuable....what did they get in return?

[muriel_volestrangler]

161. Kellet(t) is acknowleged as sighting Wrangel Island in this introduction

to The Cruise of the Corwin.

How keenly Muir appreciated the possibilities of science and adventure in the exploration of this unknown Arctic land may be seen in the fourteenth chapter of this volume. Up to this time nothing was actually known about Wrangell Land except its existence. The first European who reported its discovery was Captain Kellett of H.M.S. Herald. He saw it in 1849 when he discovered Herald Island, which was named after his vessel. By right of discovery Kellett’s name should have been given to Wrangell Land, and upon British Admiralty charts it was very properly indicated as "Kellett Land."

The name Wrangell Land, it seems, became associated with the island through a report of Captain Thomas Long, of the whaling bark Nile. In 1867 he reported that he had


sailed to the eastward along the land during the fifteenth and part of the sixteenth (of August), and in some places approached it as near as fifteen miles. I have named this northern land Wrangell Land (he says) as an appropriate tribute to the memory of a man who spent three consecutive years north of latitude 68°, and demonstrated the problem of this open polar sea forty-five years ago, although others of much later date have endeavored to claim the merit of this discovery. The west cape of this land I have named Cape Thomas, after the man who first reported the land from the masthead of my ship, and the southeastern cape I have named after the largest island in this group (Hawaii). (Quoted from a letter by Captain Long published in the Honolulu Commercial Advertiser, November, 1867. The same paper contains a letter from Captain George W. Raynor, of the ship Reindeer, giving additional geographic details)


Captain Long apparently was unaware of the fact that the Island already bore the name of Kellett by right of discovery eighteen years earlier. But since Baron Wrangell had made such a brave and determined search for this "problematical land of the North," as he referred to it in his final report, there is a certain poetic justice in applying his name to what he only sought, but never found.

http://www.yosemite.ca.us/john_muir_writings/the_cruise...

This introduction, written in 1917, also notes:

"Whether Wrangell Land became United States territory when Hooper formally raised our flag over it is a question. The editor is unable to discover any treaty between Russia and the United States which would debar possession by the latter. But questions involving rights of territorial discovery have not, so far as we know, been raised between the two governments."

So the land was already debatable in 1917.

From The Nation's archive:

Abstract:

The discovery of the tragic death of the four young Canadians who set out to colonize the bleak shores of Wrangel Island has distracted public attention from the conflicting claims to the ownership of that Arctic territory. Harold Noice, commander of the Wrangel Island Relief Expedition, discovered on the shore a monument containing a proclamation left by the dead explorers, declaring the island to be the possession of Great Britain. This position is in direct conflict with the claims of Russia as set forth in the following note addressed by Foreign Minister to the British Agent in Moscow.

Selections from Full Text:
...Likewise there has been no reply from the British Government to a second note communicated by the Russian Government to the British Government on May 28, 1928, after the receipt by the Russian Government of additional information intimating that Mr...

...This position is in direct conflict with the claims of Russia as set forth in the following note addressed by Foreign Minister Chicherin to the British Agent in Moscow...

...Russian sovereign rights to the island have never been questioned by any other government, and it has been generally looked upon as Russian territory...

...Stefansson in raising the British flag on the Isle of Wrangel acted in the capacity of an agent of the Government of the Dominion of Canada...

...Finally, in September, 1916, the Russian Government formally notified all the Allied and neutral governments that the Isle of Wrangel, together with other islands and territories adjoining the coast of Siberia, constituted an integral part of Russian territory...

...It may also be noted that all geographic maps, including the British "Phillip's New General Atlas" (1921 edition), put down the Isle of Wrangel as Russian territory...

...This notification elicited no objections on the part of any of the governments so addressed, including the British Government...

...Therefore the Federal Government is compelled to notify the British Government that it regards the raising of the British flag on the Isle of Wrangel as a violation of Russian sovereign rights...

...In connection -with reports in British newspapers to the effect that an expedition led by Mr...

...Thus the Russian Government took concrete steps to assert its rights and its duties as the possessor of the territory...

...Wrangel Island fin HE discovery of the tragic death of the four young -I- Canadians who set out to colonize the bleak shores of Wrangel Island has distracted public attention from the conflicting claims to the ownership of that Arctic territory...

...Harold Noice, commander of the Wrangel Island Belief Expedition, discovered on the shore a monument containing a proclamation left by the dead explorers, declaring the island to be the possession of Great Britain...

...This position is taken by British official sources as well, so, for instance, the British official publication "The Arctic Pilot" (vol...

...The Isle of Wrangel was officially incorporated as Russian territory, and the Russian flag raised thereon, by an expedition organized by the Russian Government and led by Lieutenant Wrangel, in 1821-24...

...The Government of the Union of the Socialist Soviet Republics, being wholly unable to understand the absence of the requested explanations, and having in the meantime learned that new expeditions are being planned by British subjects to the Isle of Wrangel, finds it necessary again to state that it regards the Isle of Wrangel as an integral part of the Union of the Socialist Soviet Republics...

...It is interesting to note that several American authorities claim that the island belongs to the United States, on the ground that the first person actually to land was an American named Hooper, in 1881...

...In the year 1910 the Russian Hydrographic Arctic Expedition, under the command of Vilkitsky, made measurements around the island, and built thereon an iron navigation pyramid for the guidance of ships seeking entrance to the southwest part of the island, this pyramid being the first and only erection on the island...

http://www.nationarchive.com/Summaries/v117i3037_27.htm

(note: you get all the above snippets if you look at the HTML source of that page - you need a subscription to get the full thing.)

So the claims were complicated (and the claim that Wrangel himself got there in 1821 seems to be made nowhere else). I don't think the State Dept got anything in return for giving up the US claim - they just recognised that it was unenforcable. 80 years later, we can say "if only they had sent an armed party to defend the island - a young Soviet Union wouldn't have tried that hard ...", but back then I don't think it would have been seen as a worthwhile use of US military personnel, consirering the number of people who died trying to exist on the island.

[Art_from_Ark]

153. You are right

The confusion comes from the spelling-- one "L" for the Russian island, 2 "L's" for the Alaskan island.

[Cooley Hurd]

67. In Plattsburgh, NY, they're putting the finishing touches on...

...a new Federal Detention Center. According to the wife of the man who's slated to run it, she said it's for "terrorists."*

*as per a conversation I had with her a few months ago...

[thecai]

82. Under The Patriot Acts

EVERYBODY could be falsely labeled a "terrorist".

[Igel]

102. No, it's likely at least a couple of the people so labelled

would actually be terrorists.

[Patriot Acts]

140. How many people at Guantanamo have been convicted as 'real terrorist"?

[Modem Butterfly]

69. The Y2Kooks were all over this story six years ago...

Everything old is new again.

[slaveplanet]

71. newscrax

reported on this years ago - But I'm willing to place bets should it go Nuclear or biological, they'll be too lazy to bother. What they'll do is set up a perimeter and anyone who tries to escape out will be shot on site. They'll let the survivors eek it out in an "escape from New York" type scenario for a while, then try to ride in like the saviors to scoop up the those lucky enough to avoid the roving gangs of thugs, rapists and looters. Of course the rest of the region not hit will be under Martial Law, so any real accounts will be hard to come by at best.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/7/14/2147...

FEMA Preparing for Mass Destruction Attacks on Cities

John O. Edwards
Monday, July 15, 2002

FEMA, the federal agency charged with disaster preparedness, is engaged in a crash effort to prepare for multiple mass destruction attacks on U.S. cities - including the creation of sprawling temporary cities to handle millions of displaced persons, NewsMax has learned.

FEMA is readying for nuclear, biological and chemical attacks against U.S. cities, including the possibility of multiple attacks with mass destruction weapons.

The agency has already notified vendors, contractors and consultants that it needs to be prepared to handle the logistics of aiding millions of displaced Americans who will flee from urban areas that may be attacked.

The agency plans to create emergency, makeshift cities that could house hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Americans who may have to flee their urban homes if their cities are attacked.

(snip)

[kk897]

78. I myself have seen a concentration camp inside the US

It is near Carrizozo, New Mexico, a teensy little town in the middle of nowhere. At least I think that was the location; I used to live in Albuquerque and went to school for a bit at NM Tech in Socorro, and saw a lot of the state, but that was a while ago, and it could have been the camp at Lordsburg.

It was used to hold Japanese prisoners.

No, the US could never plan concentration camps...er, make that "internment" camps:

http://www.children-of-the-camps.org/history/timeline.h...

or is it "relocation camps"?

http://www.pnorthwestbooks.com/docs/fac_fic_fal.html

or maybe it was just a chance to take some time off and garden and golf:

http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/8760.html

Hm, maybe not...

A number of locations in New Mexico were used as internment camps for Japanese-Americans, including Lordsburg where two male internees were shot and killed under highly questionable circumstances in 1942.

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1511.html

Clark
When the Japanese originally came on the trains, how were they brought out to camp?

Mr. Dockum
Well, the trains came on this railroad right out here on the El Morris Siding. The trains stopped there usually at two or three o'clock in the morning. When it stopped, of course, the guards came to meet them there, and they would unload them and march them over to the camp--about two miles. They'd march them up there, and they'd be fed and bedded down in the compounds by daylight.

http://tinyurl.com/4mjhv

[thecai]

85. Doomed To Repeat History?

If we don't pay attention to the warning signs and learn from our nation's previous mistakes, if we give up our freedoms willingly, we can never get them back.

Repeal, I repeat, REPEAL the patriot acts. It is our duty as American citizens to defend The Constitution.
Very good post, kk897.
Most of the camps are in remote locations, surrounded by dirt mounds so are nearly invisible from the street. Many US prisons are the same, and only visible by air.

[walldude]

80. While I wouldn't put this past the Government

these sites and photos prove nothing. Alex Jones has been reporting this stuff for a long time, but he's questionable at best. For me to believe something like this I'm going to need credible evidence..

[thecai]

86. Maps, Directions, Satellite Views

State By State Index (from rense.com):
http://www.rense.com/general17/statebystate.htm

check out the aerial views on globeXplorer. The pictures are not as clear as there were on Mapquest*, then go on a long, country drive to locate the dirt mounds surrounding the camps. If you attempt to enter, you'll find guards are everywhere.
*discontinued aerial view feature...

[BlackClouds]

90. I have seen video of a concentration camp/facility

Indianapolis / Marion County - Amtrak railcar repair facility (closed); controversial site of a major alleged detention / processing center. Although some sources state that this site is a "red herring", photographic and video evidence suggests otherwise. This large facility contains large 3-4 inch gas mains to large furnaces (crematoria??), helicopter landing pads, railheads for prisoners, Red/Blue/Green zones for classifying/processing incoming personnel, one-way turnstiles, barracks, towers, high fences with razor wire, etc. Personnel with government clearance who are friendly to the patriot movement took a guided tour of the facility to confirm this site. This site is located next to a closed refrigeration plant facility.

I have seen video of this, and taped it on my vcr back in 1995. It was some video made by the Indiana militia and shown on the local cable access channels. This was around the time of the Waco Texas tradegy, since other parts of the video dealt with that. I think it was pretty compelling evidence, and anybody doubting that there are concentration camps in the US are the ones that are delusional. Like I want this crap to be true. It's not in my best interests to believe this stuff is true, but the truth is the truth and I cannot hide from it.

[thecai]

111. BRAVO BlackClouds!

Your very first post is an excellent one! I've seen that camp on Mapquest, (before they discontinued the aerial view option). One of my posts regarding the box-cars was removed, but I agree with you, this is NOT something we WANT to be true. I wish someone COULD make a "liar" out of me.

[Patriot Acts]

143. I have been to several of these locations,

especially in IN. I have been sitting her for 15 min debating to myself if I should even talk about them.... Was on 2 suspect military bases, Missouri and in Georgia.... and lived around and/or visited several in Indiana.

You would have to be nuts to think our government doesnt have some type of plan for Domestic Evil Doers! After some of the stuff I have seen and experianced, I wouldnt put anything past anyone!

[gandalf]

91. Who could or would deliver "Credible Evidence" here besides Alex Jones?

With regard to these topics, the mainstream media will never ever even search for credible evidence. Besides, why should one believe anything what the NY Times writes? After all, they sold the WMD lie.

So, while your request for credible evidence is understandable, it is utterly naive. Regarding government crime and related topics, credible evidence will only in rare instances be searched for, and if it exists (like, for example, in the CIA cocaine story reported by Gary Webb), the mainstream media will ignore it.

But you will live in a happy world.

[Warren DeMontague]

93. Alex Jones is Credible?

Look, I'll be the first to admit we live in a weird world. Inexplicable things do occur. Sometimes frogs rain from the sky, sometimes total imbeciles get re-elected, sometimes (rarely) freepers even have dates with non-inflatable women.

However, some things are bullshit. They just are. Aliens aren't drawing crop circles. The virgin mary isn't making her presence known by appearing on moldy biscuits. 10 foot tall Lizards from the dimension freemb aren't stealing your socks from the laundromat. I'm all for Charles Fort, but you gotta draw the line, separate the wheat from the chaff somewhere.

[gandalf]

94. ??? You are attacking claims I never made. Read again.

I did not say Jones is credible. I made no judgement. I said "would or could".

What I meant: The only people who would investigate such topics are people that are commonly (for example, by the mainstream media) judged as not credible or as conspiracy theorists.

Real journalists would never touch such a subject, it could end their careers (see C. Borjesson, Into the Buzzsaw) or their life (see Gary Webb).

[gandalf]

95. What do you suggest to produce credible evidence in this question?

Ask a mainstream media reporter? He would flatly deny that there is anything to investigate? Look for yourself, search a site mentioned by Rense? Even if you found one, who would believe you? After all, you have no "credible" organisation behind you like the NY Times.

[Warren DeMontague]

108. I suggest something beyond pictures of a field with barbed wire

and a sign that says "Srebenicia 17km", from some outfit known as the "Mississippi State Militia" as "evidence" that there are "Concentration Camps" in Missi