Minimum wage, the working poor, and the creation of the criminal class

[beyurslf]

The post from earlier gave a great example of the budget of someone on minimum wage. What it left out was the element of "crime." I have worked in social services for years and have seen this repeated over and over again in our system.

The single mom, with a 2 year old at home, has an old clunker of a car that is hardly reliable. She has no car insurance and just "risks" it and the ticket she would get for it.
Of course, the brake light on the passenger side went out and she didn't know it. Her tags had just expired the last week but she didn't get paid for another week when she was planning on getting the tag. When she got pulled over, she was warned for the brake light and ticketed for the expired tag, but she also got a ticket for no insurance--a $200 fine.
Needless to say she could barely afford buying the one month of insurance she had to get so that she could get her tag up to date. She also bought a brake light for a couple bucks. After doing this, she didn't have the money to pay the other ticket (no insurance) she got. She doesn't go to the court date because she can't miss work or she will be fired. A warrant is issued for her arrest for her failure to comply with the ticket and her license suspended, not that she could really do anything about it. She continues to drive to work because she has no other choice.
A few months later, she is hit while driving to work. The wreck is the other driver's fault. She still has no insurance, of course. She is going to lose her job because she was already late twice last week when the babysitter wasn't ready. They told her no more warnings. A cop arrives who witnessed the wreck and discovers she has an active warrant and arrests her. She is also fined for driving on a suspended license ($500) and for having no insurance (another $200).

The baby goes into emergency protective custody.

This all started because she had a brake light out, remember?

We "create" criminals with draconian punishments that are completely out of reach to the working poor--the ones most likely to be affected by the laws and least likely to able to comply. A $200 or $300 or $500 fine might as well be a $10,000 fine to this woman. She has no way to pay it. She went from being poor to being a criminal with probation and fines she can't pay. This ignores the legal problems invovled with having her baby in protective custody. Add to this, that repeated offenses will get her a felony--all because she can't pay a ticket?

The issue of the minimum wage has a far greater impact and reach than just her ability to pay her bills. It affects how her child will grow up, her ability to remain a "law abiding citizen," and how society will judge her--and her child.

[Tux]

1. But

Republicians think that if you make less than upper middle-class income, you're lazy and deserve such punishment. Many fundies believe that wealth is god's favor and if you're poor, you sinned. Either way, we're all screwed. No matter what unless someone can balance out corporate greed, political BS, and think of those that voted into that nice, comfy job.

[BlueJazz]

2. I never have understood the whole "fine thing"

You accidently run a stop sign:

You are wealthy >>>Ha..Ha!..No big deal..chicken feed.

You are poor >>> You don't get to renew your health insurance.

Some Laws in our country Suck.

[beyurslf]

3. I don't understand the idea that you don't pay a fine so we suspend

your license and make you a criminal. If you don't pay that credit card bill it goes to collection. Why wouldn't the fine also go to collection? If the person is too poor to pay a speeding ticket for 80 bucks what makes them think they will be able to pay a $500 ticket for driving on suspended? Especially after arresting them and possibly causing them to lose their jobs.

[geniph]

28. What's sad is that many of those folks

given those fines COULD actually often arrange some kind of payment schedule - IF they could afford to take a day off work and go talk to a magistrate. It's not always available, and you have to kind of sweet-talk them, but many courts will permit that - you just can't do it by write-in, which isn't fair to those who don't get paid leave from work.

Some magistrates can reduce the fines if you give a good explanation too, but that can backfire. The fines are ridiculously high for the working poor, and they're nothing to the well-off, just a cost of driving. I don't know how we can build equity in the system and still resolve the problems of uninsured drivers or unlicensed vehicles. Maybe there need to be state insurance programs and licensing assistance for those in need.

Wouldn't be a bad kind of assistance program to start, come to think of it - help poor folks keep driving legally. Hell, I'd cough up a few bucks for that (and I had enough trouble paying my own last traffic fine).

[RoeBear]

8. Some Scandinavian countries have

sliding scales for traffic fines. I remember some guy paying over a hundred thousand dollars for a speeding ticket there.

[candy]

4. Devi's advocate here.

My mother was the poor single parent of 2.

She always had back up money.If we had to eat macaroni for a week she didn't touch it.

She also had family and friends that would have helped her out of a scrape like this,as a loan,because they were better off but not well off.

Where is the father of the baby? Is there no family or close friend? Why would the state take the baby if any family was willing to do it?

Once we were in school things got easier for her but we survived.

[Pepperbelly]

5. not everybody has the same level of personal and financial responsibility

as your mom (God bless her) but that still doesn't mean that someone less responsible is a criminal and should have their entire life wrecked over what is essentially an economic issue.

[The Flaming Red Head]

99. delete

[beyurslf]

6. I worked in child welfare. I can't tell you how often something like this

happened. Mom ended up in jail and baby came into care. Sure sometimes a family member was there. Too often though family members were looked upon with suspicion. I think this is changing now and more children are released to family members quickly.

We can ask, "Where is Dad? Where are family members?" all we want. The sad fact is they are all too often missing.

[angstlessk]

7. I don't know how old you are, but being 'poor' in the 50's 60's and 70's

was a lot easier than being 'poor' today. My father died when I was 16 and my mother was 'poor'. She had one job as a bank teller and made enough money to pay for a 3 bedroom apartment (on the 4th floor). The neighborhood now has become a yuppie enclave. Back then it was a hippy hangout. The gentrification of urban America has turned all those cold water flats that your mother could afford back then now WAY beyond the reach of any person making minimum wage. In fact MOST places to live is beyond a minimum wage earner with children unless they work more than one job.

[ultraist]

11. Welcome angstlessk!

:hi:

Yes, gentrification has pushed out a lot of affordable housing. Affordable housing is a serious issue for many families. Bush yet again cut Section 8. In my area, there is a four year wait list for housing vouchers.

[angstlessk]

15. Thank you for the welcome. I remember when the women's movement

came about at near the same time. And me being a young kid thought, if you won't give women equal wages, why not give them discounts on food and lodging because that is what 100% of my poor mothers money was spent on. We talked about finances all the time. Christmas we were able to buy one present each for each other and we were grateful for the smallest present. Times were hard, but not as hard as they are now. We could afford to LIVE. Everything else was icing on the cake.

[Just Me]

27. I appreciate your sharing a snapshot of reality.

Welcome!! :hi:

I genuinely believe that the "reality" of American life and living is being, well, covered-up!!!

There are so many people in our country who are forced to live a day-by-day struggle and suffering.

Yet, the "box" never, ever reveals that reality.

It's just so damned sad that our government is waging so much tragedy on our own people,...and that tragedy is being concealed.

Very, very sad. :cry:

[angstlessk]

35. Thank you for the welcome. There are a gazillion business digests

and business reporting and capital quarterlies and investment portfolio e-zines. Yet there is NO reporting on labor. Why is that? I have been wondering for years why there are no labor pundits but a gazillion capital reporters. Does anyone know? Is there some sort of conspiracy to quiet labor reporting? What can we do to report on the labor part of the equation of labor/capital? Why do poor people think only rich people can create a job? What about labor owning the factory? I doubt VERY much if the jobs would be offshored then? Labor owning the means of production is not a new idea. Can someone talk about it in the main stream media at all?

[RoeBear]

85. Labor owning the factory

only solves part of the problem. If the owners pay themselves too well their product will be priced out of the market.

[xmas74]

56. I work two jobs

and have a young child. I have an education, but cannot find any real work (and I cannot leave the state because of child custody issues).
There is a 22 month waiting list for Section 8 in my area. I applied anyway and was informed that I probably make too much yet housing is high here (they figure that in a college town, they can have anywhere from 2-4 students in each bedroom and can charge accordingly).

I am now in my early 30's and have to consider a move back in with my parents. Damn! I didn't want to be such a loser, but bills are just too damn high now (nothing extra, just basics plus child care, car insurance and gas for the car). I understand the reasons why adults are drifting back to their parents homes.

[mermaid]

107. I Feel Ya

I, too, am in my early 30's...34, and am considering a move back in with my mom, and feel like the world's biggest loser, because I have to even CONSIDER such a move.

It hurts the pride, it really does.

I thank the good Lord Mom is willing to take me back in (we have already discussed it) but...even though I tell myself it is a temporary thing...that I'm doing it so that I can work part-time and go back to school to finish my degree, etc, etc, etc....I still can't help feeling like a L-O-S-E-R at life, because I couldn't make it on my own.

[lapislzi]

13. Affordable housing in urban areas is virtually nonexistent

I do volunteer work with an affordable housing agency in Westchester Cty, NY. The people who cut the lawns and serve the food can't afford to live in the county, except in drastically proscribed areas (and everyone knows them for the slums they are).

But the public transportation network stinks too. Heaven forfend the rich folk should see a bus driving by, or ~gasp~ have a bus stop in the village. (There are no "towns" in Westchester. Everyone, for some reason, lives in a "village." It's a joke.) There goes the neighborhood. (irony)

Welcome to DU!
:toast:

[angstlessk]

23. Thanks for the welcome. You do volunteer work. That is most admirable.

I do need to get more involved in the local community. I may not be rich but I do have free time which would be well spent doing such volunteer work as you. My sister's husband was from Long Island and she lived there for a few years before moving to Florida then to Arizonia. I did like Long Island. It was like a 'town' outside of NYC.

[lapislzi]

30. I'm from LI originally

I used to love it. Now I couldn't afford to live there, nor would I want to. Outside the sheltered north shore enclaves, people live cheek-by-jowl in every kind of bizarre housing configuration known to humanity. Duplexes, chopped up single-family houses, teensy apartments in Levitt homes, you name it. It's a very strange place to drive through nowadays.

Aside: it also has a disproportionately high rate of breast cancer. Figure that one out.

[geniph]

24. Hell, even our police can't afford to live in the city of Seattle

the city had to start a housing program for them, because it was trying to require that they lived within the city limits, and honest cops couldn't afford to on their salaries.

It's a good sign that housing prices have gone wack when none of the service personnel, including the ones making a nice middle-class income, can afford to live in the community where they work.

[candy]

31. Good point! The apartment we lived in now probably has

3 or 4 BC or BU students living there,paying big rent.It has happened all over that neighborhood.

[MountainLaurel]

43. Amen

Although I'd like to amend your final two sentences. Gentrification has not only put those cold water flats out of the reach of people making minimum wage, but also out of the reach of anyone in what certainly can be considered the middle class.

There was a study recently done here in the DC area on affordable housing. They found that in more than 85 percent of the metro region -- which stretches 60 miles in any direction -- a 2BR apartment is out of the reach of people like teachers, firefighters, police offices. So, a DC firefighter would probably have to live 40 miles away to afford an apartment.

[eridani]

50. Amen! Far worse now.

My mother-in-law was abandoned by my husband's father when she still had the two youngest kids still at home. (1965) She got a minimum wage job and was able to arrange a rent-to-buy deal on a small two bedroom house in the inner ring suburbs--total cost $6000. The last two went to college via cheap NDEA loans and minimum wages jobs themselves. When she retired, she had enough to buy a small house on the Oregon coast, and she sold her old place to us for $35,000 in 1982, no interest. It's now assessed at $150,000.

I had a private school education courtesy of state and private scholarships, after class and summer jobs that didn't take up too much time, and a total loan of $3000 at 2% interest--payment postponed if you went to grad school or into teaching.

[Sterling]

62. Plus jobs moved out of the city. Industry anyway.

SO even if the flats were still affordable where could you work? Min wage at McD's wont pay the rent.

[GreenPoet64]

16. One trip to the ER and your "back up money"

is gone. I know so many women like this woman. Not everyone has family or a huge network of friends--especially if you have to keep relocating to change jobs because of hardship that prevents you from working such as no transportation.

[amazona]

19. where did this back-up money come from?

I see young people in the situation described all the time. There is no time to accumulate back-up money when you are just starting out with a job, a new baby, and your husband disappears over the rainbow to someplace baby-free.

"She also had family and friends that would have helped her out..."

Would have? Ha. Then she is lucky to have never tested this blithe assumption. Fact is -- She doesn't know they would have helped her out. I gave away plenty of $$$ when I had it to help out friends in trouble. When I was seriously ill and myself in trouble, guess what, they did not give me a dime. They didn't have it to give, really. Most didn't even repay what they owed me from past loans. If the money ain't there, it ain't there.

Most poor people have family and friends that are also poor people. The circle of poor people hitting up other poor people for money tears families and communities apart.

I'm sorry but my experience is that if your back-up plan is to hit up family and friends for loans, it is very destructive in any number of ways that should probably be obvious.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Nobody]

66. And the poor people are often very generous

to those less fortunate.

Maybe it's because they know they could be next.

[amazona]

77. yes, too generous for their own good!

It came back and bit me, and I also see it come back and bite so many of my friends. Example -- a widow raising five children on her husband's Social Security. Yet she was giving to the Heart Fund and really every disease of the week that asked. Talk about the widow's mite. I doubt her tiny gifts did anything for these big organizations, but they certainly cut into her budget.

We need to educate ourselves about the value of providing for and protecting ourselves first. The natural inclination is to want to give, but a line has to be drawn somewhere.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Sterling]

61. She also had family and friends that would have helped her out of a scrape

Well that was nice. Don't assume others are in the same situation.

[LWolf]

71. Situational vs generational poverty:

Two totally different worlds.

My single mother was a poor working-class woman, and she had family and friends that she could turn to when she was in trouble. Not everybody does. She never did have back-up money. My father was never part of the picture; I saw him 3 or 4 times before we moved out of state when I was 7, he never paid a penny of child support, and I saw him once more when I was 16. He died when I was 20, and was irrelevant as far as help or support for my mother, or for me.

Not all the poor have any kind of back-up at all. Those in generational poverty don't have some of the background we take for granted; an understanding of budgeting, of planning for the future, etc..

[The Flaming Red Head]

98. (self deletes)

never mind already trolled to death

[lapislzi]

9. I've said it before. Prisons = profit

Brutal, simple equation.

Prison is a multi-billion dollar industry (yes, industry) in this country. It's a source of cheap labor (let me repeat that, cheap labor) for corporations, and it brings jobs and revenue to the prison location. Prisons today are run by private companies who think nothing of doling out a heaping helping of Christian proselytizing with every incarceration.

It's a sad by-product of a culture that values "punishment" waaaay more than "justice."

[SammyWinstonJack]

25. Yes indeed!

Cheap labor from prisoners fuels/funds the private corporate run prison system in this Country. Wachenhut(sp)? Security family are personal friends of the BFEE. 'nuff said.

[MountainLaurel]

44. And it transfers economic resources

From blue, urban areas (i.e., even criminals contribute to the economy and the social network) to the red locales in the sticks that are clamoring to get a new supermax facility because it's the first economic development they've had in 50 years. So, the poor are doubly fucked.

[Pushed To The Left]

52. Excellent point!

People in power profiting. That's what conservatism is all about!

[Conservativesux]

54. Indeed so. Whatever happened to rehabilitation?

[lapislzi]

73. As a society we value "punishment" over "justice."

Listen to one of bush's speeches. Full of punishment. Smiting the wicked. Retribution. Old Testament nonsense. (NOT intended as Christian-bashing. Just bashing that kind of Christian who cherry picks the most brutish parts of the Bible as the parts god wants us to follow, while forgetting all about what Jesus said.)

[Conservativesux]

91. That would mean that * isnt really a Christian, wouldnt it?

....if all he quotes is Old testament crap and ignores the new testament, doesnt that make his beliefs false or something?

[The Flaming Red Head]

100. self delete

[Betsy Ross]

10. But if they arrest all the poor, who will clean their toilets?

That is a problem now. In expensive areas like the SF Bay, the people who clean houses and hospitals, care for the elderly and children, mow the lawn, etc., can't afford to live there. It seems that the Repugs don't think about their need for a working class. Remember the 2000 Repug conventions, the only people of color were cleaning up or serving food.

[ultraist]

12. They will keep the borders porous so there is an endless flow

of cheap labor. They don't need to help those in poverty or help to keep them afloat, they have illegal aliens to provide cheap labor.

The poor are fungible.

The only incentive for them to keep poverty somewhat in check is to keep the crime rate down. Once the crime rate starts to affect people that live in gated communities, they make do something about poverty.

[lapislzi]

14. Ummm....no...

The wealthy in gated communities can and will hire their own private security forces to deal with the "criminal element." In Grover Norquist's withered-away state, the public police force will be subsidized by the taxes of those who don't live in said communities--the poor and working classes. Because the tax base will be miniscule, the police force will be ineffective, but that will be of no concern to the wealthy, who can afford the best.

It will go exactly the way of health care and education.

[ultraist]

39. That's interesting, they will just create whole towns that are safe

Like New Canaan, CT where an inexpensive home is in the $700,000 range.

I'm not sure we will see another big white flight to the suburbs though because people want to be in the metro areas near work and cultural epicenters. They will just run out as many of the poor as they can, by gentrifying the neighborhoods.

[lapislzi]

59. Exactly. The divide deepens

As "red" social conservatives move to "secure" developments out of town and truck their labor in, while "blue" social progressives try to prop up the urban milieu.

I'm not sure where gentrification fits in the scheme. The people I know who have worked to renew neighborhoods tend to be more socially progressive. You can't isolate yourself in the city. It's not physically possible. Although Manhattan has managed to price itself out of the budgets of virtually every service worker on the island.

Need to think on this.
:freak:

[Sterling]

64. Yes here in the city it's rich people rent or the projects.

I wish I could qualify for the projects. Believe it or not there are some projects here that middle class folks cannot afford.

[lapislzi]

72. There is little use for the so-called middle class in society any longer

Doctors, maybe. They may be permitted to exist in relative comfort, but the price is that they will be required to toe the corporate-health-care line.

Small business owners are disappearing. Lawyers will be marginalized, unless they are attached to a corporate interest. It's already happening. The poor, middle, and working classes are having their rights of legal redress eroded.

Restaurant and hotel proprietors will likewise be franchisees of large chains.

All will serve the machine.

[ultraist]

88. Areas of Harlem have been gentrified, Clinton's neighborhood

It's not possible to completely separate by class in a city but real estate prices vary a lot in cities according to location. Central Park West is very pricey for instance.

We bought several properties in a city neighborhood years ago and the appreciation rates on those are astounding because the neighborhood is being gentrified. The appreciation rates just a mile away are stagnant.

There are definite boundaries in cities as there are in larger geographical regions.

Gentrification pushes out the poor.

[Us vs Them]

17. The War on Poverty.

It is clear that the balance of money in this society is not working towards the productivity of this nation.

The woman in your example is most likely forced to drive a car (illegally) because viable public transportation is not a supported by the local and state legislature.

Her inability to pay the fines imposed on her are the product of earning a wage that sends the clear message that her time is not valuable.

Arbitrary fines do nothing to promote the value we place in those who follow the law - they simply place those with plenty of money to spare above it.

The Criminal Class are those who sank and could not swim with the turbulent undertow of this administration. What they fail to remember is that these are citizens, these are voters, and these are taxpayers - but most importantly, these are humans with families.

If you want to see real values, I introduce the War on Poverty.

[lapislzi]

26. The War on Poverty became the War on the Poor

Another poster said it above: the poor are fungible. They are only worth what corporations can get away with paying for their labor. Nothing more. You forget: you are not even dealing with people here. You are dealing with corporations that have the legal status of people.

The poor are invisible.

This is the dark triumph of the cheap labor conservative mind. It came cloaked in a shining mantle of globalism and free trade.

[PowerToThePeople]

53. these are voters

Not once they become criminal. Then they lose their voting rights. The poor will end up with little say in this country.

[lapislzi]

74. OK, first, not all convicts lose voting rights permanently

All do while they're in prison. Some states restore voting rights upon parole, some after parole is completed. Only Florida and one other state (memory fails, too lazy to look it up) rescind voting rights permanently to all convicted felons.

Second, the poor are not a cohesive voting bloc right now. They don't turn out in large numbers. Indeed, why should they? Who is standing up for them, save a few marginalized members of Congress? They have no say now. Polticians mostly ignore them because the poor have no money to contribute to the election machine. The last president who gave a shit about the poor was LBJ, poor crazy bastard. As much as I love Clinton, he cut the poor loose because he followed the money.

You also shouldn't lump the poor in with criminals. They're not automatically the same thing.

[PowerToThePeople]

96. I was not "lumping"

But thank you for the clear-up on the voting thing. I was not 100% sure, just what I had heard. I was just replying to the above post, and had heard that they did lose the rights, so thought that might sway the vote a certain direction over time..

[bread_and_roses]

18. Excellent, excellent post

And a similar progression happens to youth caught up in the repeated police "sweeps" of inner-city (mostly minority) neighborhoods. Have to keep that Prison-Industrial complex fed, as noted by a poster below.

These are all choices we make as a society - there is no immutable law that says we have to pay these low wages, or allow our inner cities to fall into third-world conditions.

[GreenPoet64]

20. This post reminded me of a good book . . .

Have you read "Nickel and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich? She is a reporter who decided to "live" on minimum wage, writing about her experiences and the experience of the people she encountered.

[Just Me]

21. Oh, God!!! I know!!! I've lived it, seen it. It's the "hidden America"!

:cry:

Who is responsible for pushing people over the edge? :mad:

Those who have NO COMPASSION and advocate further enrichment to those on the top of our economic structure are enemies to the best interests of our people.

:mad:

[G_j]

22. nominated!

I am sooooo glad we are having this discussion. This is REALITY for a huge segment of our society. What is really criminal here is the system. Rs are by far the the worse but this sort of criminalization of the poor happened under Clinton and others too.
Anyone who argues against a living wage is wrong, period.
There is no defense for this situation. It is mean, inhumane and criminal!

[Just Me]

32. It's hard to believe that such circumstances are tolerated in a "civil",..

,..society.

In my previous life, I was a child advocate attorney. That experience caused me to quit practicing law because "the system" fails to serve anyone, including the children. "The system" is built upon so much cynicism and persecution that, it does far more harm than good.

We really, really need to get back to HELPING one another rather than throwing away so many people,...rather than "ZERO TOLERANCE" policies that just don't work.

[angstlessk]

36. What is "nominated" I have seen that a few times.

What does it mean?

[Lars39]

37. Look at the bottom of the opening/first post

You can click on "Recommend Topic for Greatest Page" if you think a
thread is worthy. :)

[The Magistrate]

29. An Excellent Piece, Mr. Yrslf!

Too damned true by half.

My hat is off to you, Sir, and to the work that you do!

[kdmorris]

33. Well, they didn't take my children,

but that is basically how I ended up with a police record. I didn't have any money to get this piece of crap Chevy I bought registered, so I borrowed some plates from my ex-sister-in-law. I didn't ask where the damn things came from, I needed to get to work and the engine had blown in the old Chevette I'd had (I couldn't even get it fixed. I abandoned it on a back street in Alexandria, VA. After all, that car hadn't been registered either.)

Well, lo and behold, my tail light went out and the cop ran the plates. Turned out they had been stolen off another car by my ex-sister-in-law's boyfriend. It was highly embarrassing to get arrested right in front of my children's school for Theft Under $300.

Luckily, I was able to put my trial on the "Stet Docket". That just meant kind of a probation before trial. If I stayed out of trouble for 3 years, my record got wiped clean. I did manage to stay out of trouble, but that was only from the sheer damned luck of not getting caught doing the other things I ended up doing when I had no money. (Not registering the next car, driving with no car insurance, etc.)

[Just Me]

38. There are tens of millions of Americans just like you.

The experience you share is common.

You'd think such situations were rare in "America". They are not rare.

We just never hear about such common struggles.

[kdmorris]

41. That's something that makes me see red...

We have so much money in this country...and we use it make other people's lives hell. The propoganda seen on TV is that the poor are just lazy, and lack any innovation or initiative. If we even HALF of our "defense" budget and put it into programs that would provide a safety net for the poor, we could have these people taken care of.

[ixion]

46. exactly...not rare

this is life in the rat race... unless you happen to be a member of the 'privileged' class.

[wildeyed]

34. Stuff like this makes me crazy,

especially when there are children involved.

I donate copiously to a group in my city called Crisis Assistance Ministry. Their mission is to get people the small amounts of money they need to stave off these huge looming crisis. The baby gets sick and you spend the money on a prescription so you can't make rent so now you are homeless. Crisis Assistance will just give you the minimal $$$'s you need to make rent and avoid the huge and much more expensive crisis of homelessness. I wish we didn't have to depend on charity for this type of thing, but for now that is all we have.

[ultraist]

40. 35.9 MILLION people live in poverty

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/002484.html
The number of people below the official poverty thresholds numbered 35.9 million in 2003, or 1.3 million more than in 2002, for a 2003 poverty rate of 12.5 percent.

The poverty rate and number of families in poverty increased from 9.6 percent and 7.2 million in 2002 to 10.0 percent and 7.6 million in 2003. The corresponding numbers for unrelated individuals in poverty in 2003 were 20.4 percent and 9.7 million (not different from 2002).

As defined by the Office of Management and Budget and updated for inflation using the Consumer Price Index, the average poverty threshold for a family of four in 2003 was $18,810; for a family of three, $14,680; for a family of two, $12,015; and for unrelated individuals, $9,393.

Race and Hispanic Origin
In 2003, among people who reported a single race, the poverty rate for non-Hispanic whites was 8.2 percent, unchanged from 2002. Although non-Hispanic whites had a lower poverty rate than other racial groups, they accounted for 44 percent of the people in poverty.

People who reported black as their only race, for example, had a poverty rate of 24.4 percent in 2003

*Please note that the poverty rate for blacks is 3x what it is for non-Hispanic whites.

[RoeBear]

42. How do you sort out

the truly needy from the drug abusers?

[Solon]

48. You don't, addicts need treatment anyways...

trying to separate them and give to one and not the other will only lead to more suffering for both.

[wildeyed]

57. I consider the drug addicted to be truly needy, too,

although maybe in a different way than some people. Addiction and alcoholism is a disease. And as a recovering addict and alcoholic, I know a few things about it.

I don't personally sort out the cases for Crisis Assistance, I guess they have case workers for that. But I think their concept of helping the individual BEFORE the situation becomes dire is smart both economically and in a humanitarian sense. An individual may need $100 to make rent and avoid homelessness. After they become homeless, in addition to all the heartbreak that type of dislocation will cause, especially for children involved, they also need to find a more substantial amount of money for a deposit. This type of program keeps people off public assistance and out of shelters. Here is the web address for more info. http://www.crisisassistance.org/

[RoeBear]

67. My thought was

how do you know that the assistance is going for food and not drugs?

[wildeyed]

78. I guess I never considered that.

Just 'cause your poor doesn't mean your drug addicted. Just 'cause your rich doesn't mean you aren't. That might be something of a prejudice on your part, working poor = drug addict?

But if you look at the Crisis Assistance website, they claim that few of their clients are served more than once a season. Also, maybe they pay directly to the landlord or utility or something. You could email them and ask if you are really interested.

[RoeBear]

79. No, it's not a prejudice on my part

I know that some of the people that are calling a church for assistance say they are doing it for food, and then they call a doctor's office as soon as they get the money to get pain meds.

[wildeyed]

80. But what percentage of poor people actually do that?

Is it worth it to discriminate against all poor people just cause a few of them are addicts? Plus, most addicts are middle class, it is just easier to hide it when you have money. People don't stereotype you as an addict so it is easier to get away with stuff. I should know.

[RoeBear]

83. I didn't suggest that they discriminate

I asked if they sort out the truly needy from the drug abusers.

[ultraist]

89. Government help is not usually in the form of cash

Food stamps come on a credit card now that requires an ID and rent payments are housing vouchers made out to the landlord. Only disability checks are cash.

Churches are free to give to whomever they choose and they can turn down anyone they wish.

Gov't assistance cannot randomly pick and choose. They must treat everyone the same. There are specific laws about this that came about when it was discovered that blacks were getting turned down unfairly. Gov't assistance is means tested. Period.

I think drug abusers are also truly needy. Don't they need to eat as much as a non drug user?

[Lars39]

106. A drug addict is physically dependent on drugs.

Keeping a drug addict in drugs until he/she can be rehabilitated is the humane thing to do.
Yes, food would be better for the drug addict, but the physical need for the drug is there also,
and stopping abruptly could have disastrous consequences to them physically.

[Bouncy Ball]

110. I'm far more concerned about the use of billions of taxpayer

dollars for corporate fraud.

Some of that money could be used to fund effective addiction treatment programs.

And there'd still be TONS of money left over. Just tons.

[LeftyMom]

95. Do the children of addicts not deserve homes and food? nt

[Democrat Dragon]

45. According to the book "50 things you aren't supposed to know"

America jails more of it's people than any other industrialized nation.

I think it might be related to the "War On The Poor".

[KissMeKate]

47. then her kid sufferes in foster car

which is a fucking nightmare.

[Bouncy Ball]

111. Which is ANOTHER facet of this nightmare.

There are a lot of foster families that are truly good, BUT too many of them have inadequate amounts of training, oversight or compensation to take adequate care of the foster children they have.

AND there are far too many foster kids for the number of available foster homes.

I don't see anti-choice people beating down the doors of state CPS agencies to be foster parents, either.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

49. Ways in which the poor are screwed

There are less likely to be grocery stores in their neighborhoods, and they have to either drive far for groceries (if they have a car) or pay inflated prices at convenience stores. If there is a supermarket, it has less selection and higher prices.

They can't afford to buy furniture and appliances outright, and no one will grant them credit, so they patronize "rent to own" shops, which charge what amounts to exorbitant interest.

If there's no public transit, they have to buy a car, which means gas, repairs, registration, and insurance. If their car breaks down, they may lose their job.

Banks don't want their business, and there may be no banks in their neighborhood, but there are plenty of check cashing and payday loan outfits.

[MountainLaurel]

81. An addendum

To your point about grocery stores. A related problem is that grocery stores in poor neighborhoods are less likely to have fresh produce. As a result, families must rely more on prepackaged foods that are higher in price and laden with preservatives. Then the poor are more likely to rely on cheaper staples that are high in fat, sugar and salt, which drives the obesity rate through the roof. This is especially troublesome with childhood obesity, since in many of these neighborhoods it's not safe for children to play outside, so they spend much of their time watching tv.

[William Bloode]

115. Don't forget the pawn shops....

You never, ever see payday loan, check cashing joints, gun stores, or pawn shops in middle or upper class hoods.

[Pushed To The Left]

51. The right wing is phony on crime!

Not only do they not care about crime prevention, but their ideology actually breeds more crime!

[Conservativesux]

55. Let us all not forget the white collar crime that goes unpunished.

[Bouncy Ball]

112. I know a repuke state representative who has

a side business that is a private firm that designs and builds prisons.

Think about THAT conflict of interest. Scary, huh?

[stunted_evolution]

58. This Is An Excellent Thread

And alot of excellent posts have been submitted. This administration's official policy on poverty in this country for the last four years has been to completely ignore (and by ignore I mean deny) that a problem even exists. What I find most alarming is that many of the people we have been discussing, who are directly affected by these issues, were somehow convinced that voting for Bush was in their best interests. Not only did they convince a staggering number of poor and underpriveleged to vote for Bush (using alarmingly transparent tactics), but they simultaneously managed to demonize the Democratic party (and liberals in particular)in the process - effectively cutting them off from the very people who genuinely care about ending their predicament.

[ultraist]

90. Welcome stunted_evolution!

:hi:

I agree, the Bush policies are cruel and riddled with denial. But, Kerry did win the large majority of the poor vote. He also won the majority of the lower and middle classes. Of course, there were Repukes in those brackets that voted for Bush and yes, that is puzzling.

[Sterling]

60. I used to see this in traffic court in OKC.

Whites like me went up to the judge, got our driving school sentence or paid our fine. Poor people and minorities who had no cash went to lock up or lost their car.

I was just a kid then but it still made no sense to me to punish people for being poor. That is the way it seemed to me anyway.

Don't worry soon few of us will be able to afford to own a car in this country. In certain areas they are already making it too expensive for poor people to drive.

[G_j]

63. attitudes.. why is the mindset so mean?

why so cruel and heartless?
I really don't understand it. When I think of what it will take to change this system, I see a brick wall which is a mindset devoid of compassion and empathy.
I just don't know how we can turn this around. I suppose it only follows that so many Americans seem indifferent to a 100,000 deaths in Iraq.

Many of these laws are created on the state level.
Changing them means changing attitudes. How does one foster compassion where there is none? How do we make compassion a basis for our choice of elected leaders?
And now Bush has essentially destroyed the word "compassion" anyway.
We are a very sick society.
:cry:

[BiggJawn]

70. Because old people are so mean.

People get mean as they get older. and the older ones are the ones who have the money and time to run for office, where they can take their bile out on everyone.

That's why we have shit like "No Saggy Pants" laws in VA.

Good thing I'm poor. I got a lot of bile, too.

[ultraist]

92. are you for real? I love old people

I thought the no saggy pants law was to make sure males didn't let their boxers show and their baggy pants droop.

[BiggJawn]

103. No, it was an "Anti-Young People Law".

In fact, the opposition to it said as much: "We did some weird stuff when WE were that age, didn't we?"

I'm glad you love old people. Most of them wouldn't feel the same way about you.

[G_j]

105. From my experience "grumpy" might be more fitting in cases :-)

which is completely different than "mean".
Being in my fifties I will admit to lapses of the grumps, but by no means have I gotten mean. I like to think I have grown in my capacity for compassion and empathy.

[porkrind]

65. Wow, great post.

Something to really think (and act) about.

[Mabel Dodge]

68. You have to pay to keep up a society

This post is a great statement of why we need social safety nets administered by the government. This woman and her child will probably end up in the existing system, meaning prison and foster care. It would have been cheaper and more humane to simply give her the support services she needs to get her back on her feet. What the currant administration and it's supporters fail to realize is that it's always cheaper to pay up front. Don't wait until the problem has become so big that you have to fix it at a greater cost.

Yes, social services cost but it's part of the expense a society needs to run efficiently. You can pay for a social worker and benefits now to fix a problem or you can pay a cop, judge,foster care, and prison system later to fix a problem.

A society is like a house you have to pay for it's upkeep or live in something unpleasant and rundown. If citizens want America to continue to be the greatest nation in the world, we all have to reach in our pockets and pay for it's upkeep, there are no free lunches.

[lapislzi]

75. Exactly! I wish the "Freedom Isn't Free" crowd would remember that.

Whenever I see one of those ridiculous stickers, I remind the person that you're damn right it's not free. TAXES are the price we pay to live in this society. People are dumstruck when I tell them that I'm proud and happy to pay taxes.

[Mabel Dodge]

84. I hear you bother/sister

I don't begrudge the money I spend to put a new roof on my house. I find the best deal and then spend the bucks. The only other choice is to live with a leaky roof.
That's really the only choices in a society, find the best deal and spend the bucks or live in a bad situation.

[BiggJawn]

69. You got your timeline messed up.

"This all started because she had a brake light out, remember?"

No, this all got started because she works such a shitty job that she can't afford insurance. She would be in the same boat if she had been stopped on a random stop, or sobriety checkpoint.

I was in her position, because I couldn't control my wife's spending and she blew the insurance premium at the Dollar Store. (Along with the mortgage payment. Her mom said "get another job, no, I'm not telling MY daughter to curb her shopping, it's YOUR job to bring home what she NEEDS")

I got rear-ended one Sunday morning by a woman still drunk from the night before. No Insurance, you lose your driver's license.

Luckily for me, I did the Moped thing until I got it back and survived.That was a COLD fucking winter's commute.

Oh, BTW, my wife, who still had HER license, never offered to take me to work...Did I mention she's my ex-wife now?

[RazzleCat]

76. Don't forget the second cycle of poverty

You only make minimum wage, so you can only afford to shop at the big box (Walmart) that won't pay a living wage places. Hence you continue the cycle. If the wally worlds raise their wages, then they raise their prices, and minimum wage workers can't afford to buy what they need (soap, tampons et al), but if they keep the wages suppressed you can only afford to shop their. I do my best not to shop our new "sweat shops" but, I am coming out of two plus years of unemployment, have a ton of debt and earning less than before with out any health insurance. So I end up at wally world to save a lousy 10 bucks a month for such items as laundry soap, dish soap, toilet paper, and all purpose cleaner (all no names at that). Oh and for the kids boxers, socks and tee shirts. I hate having to support them with my meager dollars, but I have to scrimp just to get by.

[BiggJawn]

82. And that "lousy 10 bucks" makes a difference.

I hear ya, Bro!

FWIW, I think ALL the "Big Boxes" are "evil". Wally-World just takes less pains to hide theirs because they know they got us bent over a chair.

[ultraist]

93. blew her insurance payment & mortgage pymt at the Dollar store?

are you for real?

[BiggJawn]

104. No, I'm a god-damn figment of your TV-infested imagination.

"Are you for REAL?"
That's twice you've said that.
Get a new song.

Yeah, she blew every fucking dime out shopping. Made me sign my paycheck over to her. Rationed my cigarette and gasoline money to the point that I had to smoke OP's and "Po-Boys" (butts culled from her ashtray) and run out of gas trying to get to work.

Yeah, it was "real". A "Real" Fucking nightmare. Then she threw my ass out and took up with some chick half her age.
Yeah, it was real. You can't make up shit like that.

Are YOU for real? Or are you a 'Bot that types "Are you for real?"

[TNMOM]

86. These working poor are potential voters

We need to find a way to reach these people and bring them to the votnig booths to elect someone who cares about their issues.

The repugs have been effective in diverting their attention away from the economy and focused on things like terrorism and morals.

I know a lot of people, my parents included, who are "working poor" and inexplicably, they voted for the chimp. I think they just like him because of his alleged morality.

[rodeodance]

87. this is one of the best threads I have ever read. Thanks

[ultraist]

94. Voter registration drives and transportation to the polls!

We need to crank it up a notch. Too much time and money is spent on phonebanking. People get pissed off after the second call. Running a campaign on old school, 1970s techniques, wont work.

[Bouncy Ball]

113. I helped to register 750 low-income voters before the November election.

And then we rented 10 15 passenger vans to drive people to the polls.

It helped, but we need to do more of this. LOTS more.

[The Flaming Red Head]

97. delete

[Disturbed]

101. It's going to get much worse.

We have a Silverspoon Sociopath puppet that is a Wealth Care Pres. He also has said that he doesn't understand poor people and that most of them are poor because they are just lazy. His budget is a hatchet on the Middle Class, the Working Poor and the Poor. His record when he was Gov. of Tx. is horrible and the government in his state hates children and poor people. Expect the homeless population numbers to get huge.

[jazzjunkysue]

102. Press used to broadcast this kind of story. Where are they? Whores.

I remember hearing human interest stories like this on TV when I was growing up. There was compassion and sympathy for regular people. Now, the media wouldn't dream of running a story like this. They're the real problem: They select the national consciousness, and right now, it's one of hate, fear, and bigotry. If it doesn't promote a pretty image of an ugly corporation, it doesn't air.

[beyurslf]

108. Hey I am just happy to have a thread on the Greatest page. Thanks

for the great discussion everyone.

How can get the "powers that be" to start talking about how we create a criminal class? I think others had referred to this as the War on the Poor.

[Bouncy Ball]

109. Great example and thank you

for bringing up the crime element. I've nominated this post.

[Disturbed]

114. John Edwards talked about the poor in his campaign..

and now he is working with a group that is actualy trying to help the poor in Amerika.