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drthais Donating Member (771 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:35 PM
Original message
from Pro-Choice question to Pro-Life question...
ok ok
I was reading the never-ending abortion discussion
posted here
all of the predictable elements and opinions
were present and accounted for

but I have another question:

when someone is going on about abortion=murder ad nauseum
don't you ever think....
well, how do you feel about the death penalty? war?
...and how about in-vitro fertilization?
...and medical technology and its use to keep premature babies alive?
...and don't the Iraquis have a Right To Life too?
It's not just about abortion, you know
if you take a Right To Life stance
you had better be prepared to go all the way
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. of course
this is another aspect of the discussion that has been argued for decades.

Many argue that fetuses are innocent, therefore worthy of protection, whereas criminals are NOT innocent and deserve death. It's all a game of mental masturbation to figure out ways they can punish people for having sex.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Right on the money, it's useless to talk to fanatics.
I just call it reproductive slavery and walk away.

It's got nothing to do with life.

It's all a view of people who are horribly conflicted about sex in general, and have a hard time forgiving any woman who would allow a man to do "that" to her.

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TwentyFive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good points - but
fundamentalist christianity is a cult.

Trying to talk sense to them, is like telling the Branch Davidians they were following a nut job. IOW, they only listen to their leaders (robertson, falwell, limbaugh, hannity, etc)
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drthais Donating Member (771 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. well it just blows my mind
that the true believers
will hang desperately onto the abortion issue
and not expand the thought one iota
through its natural course

as if abortion STANDS ALONE in this world
unconnected to anything else at all!
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TwentyFive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. If the Christian Coalition came out against the DP tomorrow...
You would see the phone light lines everywhere light up with OUTRAGED christians DEMANDING a constitutional ammendment banning the death penalty.

We are dealing with a cult. Trying to talk sense to them is a waste of energy.
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mermaid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Trying To Talk Sense To Them Is Like Herding Cats
you get nowhere, and just annoy the cats.

But, of course, we COULD point out about how they are so gung-ho about life in the womb, and then those same people give that same life a GIANT MIDDLE FINGER once it is born into a world of poverty!

They cut children's health care, school lunch programs, Head Start, LIHEAP, etc, etc, etc.

We just need to pint out they are NOT pro-life. For them, life begins at conception, and ENDS at birth. for them, life begins at conception, and ENDS the second it might cost THEM something to sustain that life.
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TwentyFive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. You make a VERY reasonable argument.
But, these people are cultists.

Not one christian said one word about SpongeBobSquarePants. Then James Dobson says something....so the phone lines light up, full of angry RW christians DEMANDING an end to SpongeBob.

You and I have zero credibility with these people, for the same reason that parents watch their kids go off to join a cult...and are powerless as they watch them throw their lives away.
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reallygone Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
36. Not all lifers a Christian nut-jobs!
Whether we want to admit it or not, not all pro-life believers are Christians right-wingers. Most countries on earth are opposed to abortion, as are most religions.

While I am pro-choice in general, my biggest fears have to do with the motivation for abortion. China now has about 115 boys born for each girl. India is not far behind with about 109 to 100. Gender selection is a future peril to the world. Mapping the genome will let us select for other characteritics, we can abort homosexual children, fetuses prone to alchoholism or drug abuse, reduced intelligence, hair color, etc. The above (see the film Gattica) are available now, it is only that it is cost prohibitive except for gender selection.

I start feeling a real fear when I think of the "brave new world" that could result. It is only our "American" values of respect for individual equality that are holding us back right now from implementing some of the procedures above.
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AwakeAtLast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. I discussed this very thing with an acquaintance once,
She said that she was a "one-issue" voter. I asked which one, and of course she said "pro-life". I said something to the effect of, "So how do you feel about the Republican party and their support of the death penalty?" Her answer? "Oh, I don't mean for *them*." I was speechless!

So you mean that you want it one way for one type of person (unborn, but will most likely be born into poverty) but not for another (living, probably was born into poverty).

So basically, she is only anti-abortion, which in no way means pro-life to me.
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drthais Donating Member (771 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. an excellent point - bravo!
...that is truly profound

anti-abortion is not necessarily pro-life

wow
I'll hang onto that one
thanks
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TwentyFive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. Thank you!
Kind of makes those 'Choose Life" license plates you see in death penalty states seem so hypocritical.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
28. There are many pro-lifers
who are also anti-death penalty.

There are also many pro-lifers who support the death penalty making the distinction between people who've been found guilty of horrible crimes compared to the most immocent of innocents, those who haven't even been born yet.

I can follow that logic. Do you believe in jail? Sure. Then why don't you just put everybody in jail then? Well because only people found guilty should go to jail. That seems reasonable to me. Same logic with the death penalty. Only people who have been found guilty of horrible crimes should receive it.

The harder one for me to understand is the person who will work years to save the most vile, horrible killers, but think it fine to abort a fetus a day before birth. That logic I can't follow.
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LisaLL Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
40. to try
You may want to try the approach that the best way to reduce abortions is to prevent unintended pregnancies in the first place and to improve resources to make it easier for all families to raise children. If her one issue is that she is against abortion she should definitely be voting Democrat because our policies reduce abortions. Republican policies not only don't, but they oppose all the measure that have been proven to be effective in reducing abortions! You will find out if that truly is her goal.

Abortion happens whether it is legal or not. As a society we have two choices: Either work together to reduce abortions by using what works (pro-choice/Democrat policies) or we can oppose everything that prevents pregnancies because we would rather scream about how wrong abortion is than actually help to reduce abortions (pro-life/Republican policies)

If she would rather *miss* the opportunity to reduce abortions because she is so hung up on making it illegal, you can point out how her actions are distinctly anti-life.
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cags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. You are confusing pro-life fundies with pro-life democrats
I think most of the pro-life democrats here do "go all the way"

But many just assume if you take an anti-abortion position that you automatically take on the Right Wing Religious position, and thats simply just a bad assumption, on your part.

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drthais Donating Member (771 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. pardon me
I am a woman who has pretty much seen it all
in the procreation department
and as a bleeding heart liberal democrat
I can safely say that I have YET to meet a real-live Democrat
who is 100% anti-abortion
and that means no abortions under any circumstances

don't go throwing the anti-abortion label around
it is way too all-encompassing
when not defined properly

I ask that you be more specific
and also not make assumptions about my assumptions
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cags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. If you've read the abortion debates here you would know
that there are real-live Democrats who are 100% anti-abortion.
But on every other pro-life position they disagree. Maybe a different label would be appropriate since the pro-life label has so many other assumptions that go with it. I had another poster call me Pro-Prevention instead of Pro-Life which may be more appropriate

I will be more specific for you.

*I am anti-abortion, and that statement is not based on any religious belief.
*Birth Control should be available to teens without parental permission.
*Plan B should be over the counter
*There should be better support and care for young and poor mothers
*There should be real sex education in schools and not the "abstinence only" crap.

I simply believe thier is no reason good enough to take the life of an innocent child. Thats it, Its not about punishment for sex, or any other fundie reason.
80% of all abortions take place between 6-12 weeks. All I have to do is look at a picture of a 6-12 week old fetus, to see that it is more than a glob of cells.

Any more questions Ask Away, I think I represent the small minority of Democrats who are anti-abortion






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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
20.  A zygote, a blastocyst, and a fetus are not children. sorry.
A child is a being that can survive outside of the womb. This point of demarcation is 6 months gestational age, as science has shown.

You are saying that zygotes in petri dishes are children. Do you realize how absurd this is?

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cags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. That is the difference of opinion
and I don't think it will ever be resolved.

People are not aborting zygotes in petri dishes though. They are mostly aborting 6-12 week old fetuses with arms, legs, eyes, etc.

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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. A six week old blastocyst does not have legs, arm, and eyes
What do you base your definition of child on? It sounds like you are not well informed on the facts. Are you relying on religion to base your decision?
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cags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. I have no religion, so I base nothing on that
Edited on Tue Feb-08-05 07:13 AM by cags
Just do a google image search on a 6 week fetus. I don't think it would be appropriate to post that here
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #14
29. I've never met a 100 % pro-life Democrat
The pro-life ones I meet are somewhere in the middle, and I live in a very pro-life town. The newspaper today had a front page interview with the county Democratic chairman.

He wasn't feeling too good. Of the 43,000 votes cast in the county, Kerry only got 19 % of them, down from Gore's 21 % four years ago.
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. Exactly, and that is why you, and everyone opposed to...
...this Rabid Right-wing agenda, have GOT to stop letting them frame the debate. Stop calling there position "Pro-Life!" They are "ANTI-CHOICE!"



I'd love it if we could call them "Pro-Death," but I think "Anti-Choice" is better on a number of levels.

I recently heard the President of one of the Pro-Choice organization use "Anti-Choice" on CSPAN, now if we can get all Democrats and Pro-Choice folks to use "Anti-Choice," we will begin to re-take the moral high ground.

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drthais Donating Member (771 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. thats not a bad idea
I think we can do even better
but it is definitely on the right track

the framing of the debate
has long been the sticking point, hasnt it?

the parsing of words
the hint of being on the wrong side of right
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
12. Those are the exact questions I always ask and they prove what hypocrites
most "Right-to-lifers" are.
I stand by my opinion. It has nothing to with the sanctity of life and everything to do with men trying to control women's minds and bodies. End-of-discussion.
As Simone DeBeauvier said: "If men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament".
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
27. I'd LOVE to see some women get together and create...
...some sort of believable argument to protest Men Masturbating, arguing that each time they kill MILLIONS of "Potential Lives."

That would be awesome, maybe then, "they" might understand how ridiculous their "embryos are People too" argument is.

These people just don't get the fact that a pregnancy is only "Potential Life," Their is no guarantee that, a Pregnancy, WILL result in a baby.


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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
34. Those are not the words of Simone de Beauvoir. nt

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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. You are right! I was told that she said it. But you inspired me to do
Edited on Tue Feb-08-05 12:19 PM by BrklynLiberal
some reasearch and it turns out it was Florynce R. Kennedy who actually said it. She is a lawyer and civil rights activist who also said "Don't agonize, organize". I owe her a big apology since I have been giving credit for her creation to deBeauvoir for a long time.
Thanks for helping me find out the truth.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
15. and what about miscarriages?
Is that manslaughter?
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pamela Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
18. I've started calling myself "pro-life" lately.
Especially when I'm talking to Catholics or fundies. I realized I'm more of a "seamless garment" pro-lifer than most Catholics so I might as well embrace the label. I'm anti-death penalty, I'm against pre-emptive war and I'd like to see abortion come to an end. I just don't think that making it illegal is the best way to go about it.

I'd like to work towards creating a world where every woman was thrilled when she became pregnant because she knew that she would be lovingly welcomed by every church in the country no matter what the circumstances were surrounding the child's conception. I'd like her to know that her child will never go hungry or be without healthcare. I'd like there to be good mental health care programs where parents can get the help for the kinds of problems that are really destroying families, like alcoholism, depression, abuse, etc. I'd like there to be good programs for the mentally retarded. I'd like to see every child have the same opportunities for a good education in a safe environment.

My motto about abortion is "safe, legal and OBSOLETE". Working to make it illegal is just an attempt to put an external control on a problem instead of doing the real work necessary to fix the problem. I've worked with mentally retarded and physically disabled adults, abused and neglected children, drug addicts and their families, juvenile delinquents, incarcerated adults... and the list goes on.

I bet I've prevented more abortions than any sign-carrying-clinic-protesting-fundie.
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frankly_fedup2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. yeah, I thought I could save the World at one time myself . . .
then I woke up and GWB was our (P)resident and the people had not elected him into office; however, the Supreme Court of the United States made the decision for the country.

Then 9/11 happened (or was allowed to happen). I still cannot get that feeling off my back that our government knew nothing about it and everything, absolutely everything that was in place for if we ever got attacked did not work. Not one thing. Plus, the terrorists used our own rights against us to succeed in killing over 3,000 innocent people.

I still had a little hope until we attacked a country because a few men at the Pentagon and a few men in the white house claimed they were going to kill us if we didn't kill them first. However, once we get their evil dictator and his two sons, the Iraqi's would throw flowers at our soldiers. The soldiers believed that once they got through to Baghdad, they would be going home. Now it is 2 years later and over 1500 American lives, 9000+ with debilitating wounds, and an unknown amount of innocent Iraqi women, children, and men, possibly over 100,000, were dead.

Then the Pope comes out and calls Bush the antichrist (kinda creepy).

Now I know no one can or could have saved us from the fascists
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TwentyFive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
19. Isn't everybody anti-abortion?
I don't think anybody should be pro-abortion in the sense they advocate for more abortions.

It's not like being pro-gay marriage, where marriage is something we want more of and look forward to celebrating. Abortion is a necessary thing and a good thing and a valuable thing...but it's also a serious thing that is meant to correct a situation that has gone wrong.

I preferred Bill Clinton's approach that we should strive to make abortion should be safe, legal and rare.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
21. It's "Anti-Choice" not "Pro-Life." n/t
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. That's right! Anti Choice and Anti full civil liberties for women
Right to privacy, which Roe vs. Wade was founded on, is a civil liberty. Women should have this right over her body just as men do. If women lose this right, the State could FORCE abortions on women they felt not fit to bear children or if they felt the fetus was not genetically fit.

Giving the State control over our bodies is dangerous and is a slippery slope. Forced sterlizations were outlawed for good reason.

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catzies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-05 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
24. Of course.
Two points:

First, as Kate Michelman once said, "Women don't have abortions because they want to, they have abortions because they have to."

Second, THEY ARE NOT PRO-LIFE; THEY ARE ANTI-CHOICE.

Like you pointed out, it's not the same thing (at least to them).
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Locut0s Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
30. A similar discussion I had...
I recently had a similar discussion with someone in another message board where they posted the following:

"
In the past 16 months. . .
(Each + represents 8,000 human lives)
Capital Punishment killed 98 Americans .
War in Iraq killed 100,000 people + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Abortionists murdered 1,750,656 American infants + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
"

My response was along the same lines as your question. Basically if you're that outraged about this then good, you must really value human life, so why don't you get outraged at other issues that are truly unquestionable horrible and where there is no debate either way. My exact reply was:

"
Each + represents 8,000 human lives:

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I'm not going to get into a discussion of weather abortion is murder, that is a hopeless discussion that neither side will end up winning. But if you want to be appalled and outraged there are plenty of more urgent matters that need our attention.
"

He never did respond.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
31. Pro-Birth, Pro-Birth, Pro-Birth
Let's get our terminology clear!
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 07:16 AM
Response to Original message
33. actually I am pretty consistent
There are just wars (WW2 being the premier example). I have no problem with in vitro (I think the soul which is what matters isn't there until implantation). Against the DP in all cases. The only non pro life view I have is I am in favor of assisted suicide provided the wishes of the person are crystal clear.
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3lefts Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
35. Still seeking answers to the arguments:
1) "No one has the right to tell me what I can do with my body."

Never understood that argument in its totality.

I believe a half-dozen states (a couple of them blue) have laws that say suicide is illegal. Attempted suicide anyway. It wouldn't matter for a successful suicide.

And, of course, all states have laws saying that using marijuana (a naturally growing product) is illegal.

In both these cases someone is certainly telling you what you can do with your body.

2) "A child is a being that can survive outside of the womb."

Someone just used that statement above. Don't understand that statement either. A newborn that has just had its cord cut can not survive outside of the womb, does that make it less of a human being? No. Why is that quote used as a pro-abortion argument?
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
37. I am a consistent pro-life progressive, supporting what
Edited on Tue Feb-08-05 08:18 AM by DemBones DemBones
is called the "seamless garment of life." That means that I oppose abortion, infanticide, capital punishment, war, homicide, euthanasia, assisted suicide, and suicide. I do not believe that anyone has the right to take a life, including their own or that of their child of any age. I do believe that everyone has the right to refuse medical treatment to extend his/her life by extraordinary means.

I support the right of anyone to use contraceptives but not birth control devices. Contraceptives (condoms, diaphragms, spermicidal foams) prevent conception from occurring while birth control devices (IUDs, so-called "emergency contraceptives" or "morning after pills") prevent birth by preventing implantation of an embryo, making them in effect a form of abortion. Birth control pills work by suppressing ovulation, making them contraceptives.

I also believe that we each have a moral obligation to help other people who need food, water, clothing, shelter, or medical care, because those are all necessary to preserve life. Being a progressive, I support government helping to provide for people's needs, ensuring fairness in the market, providing public education, etc.


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never_get_over_it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
38. This is why I ask
anyone I know who voted for Bush becasue of abortion the following:

So how do you feel about killing Iraqi babies?!
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