Conflicted about the Iraqi elections?

[Kablooie]

I have to say that I can't blindly denounce the Iraqi election. I'd like to. I hate everything Bush is pushing us towards. But this election, even if it is largely US controlled, could be the start of the Iraqi people doing something with their country. If they begin to feel that they have some power, at some point in the future they might actually take it.

Does this mean that Bush did the right thing in Iraq? Of course not! We shouldn't be there, we shouldn't be doing this, but also we shouldn't allow ourselves to be as blind to the truth as the Freepers. Bush and his minions see the world as pure black and white but we should see it as a wide range of panchromatic grays. We shouldn't let Bush's simplistic view of the world infect ours. We should try to rise above them and see what's really there, not just see what we want to see. The election is not a black. It's a gray.

[NewHampshireDem]

1. "I have to say that I can't blindly denounce the Iraqi election."

Good, no one here would expect you to.

Enjoy your stay ...

[Ken Burch]

2. I think Iraqis should be allowed to vote, and in safety

...but I don't believe that this election is going to solve anything or that this government(whoever ends up leading it)will have much respect or credibility.

Is that being conflicted, or just being realistic?

[ElectroPrincess]

3. Nope, paint it BLACK

The expectations for this elections were dumbed down and lowered beyond belief. NOW * is going to use this EXCUSE (The Elections were the BEST!) to move on to trash Social Security on our domestic agenda and/or make war-like overtures toward Iran.

No, these elections were *fixed* from the onset. The only commendable entities here are the average Iraqi who voted but they will NOT get their country back through this SHAM. No way.

The situation is bleak ... black. I won't back down from this truth.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sniffa]

4. i don't care

i reaLLy don't. eLections, shmeLections.
nothing is gonna change - we'LL stiLL be there, and peopLe wiLL continue to die.

but hey, freedom's on the march!

[Ken Burch]

33. Freedom's on the FORCED march

...and Dubya's pushing it along with bayonets.

[Streetdoc270]

5. Yes, self-rule is good

But to FORCE your brand of freedon on everyone is wrong! Look at history, all the successful democracies were brought about by internal revolutions. Plus any election in an occupied country is illlegitimite. This is not democracy at work or even freedom on the march, its ballots at gun point. A democratic Iraq in no way makes the US safer. A stable Iraq does.

[Joe Chi Minh]

19. Well stated, streetdoc,

if I may say so.

[gorbal]

6. I have a hard time being conflicted

I am glad they are happening and I hope they are sucessfull. I am just sick of people dying.

Politically, think of it this way. The sooner this war is over the sooner we no longer have a "Wartime" president that we can't critisize.

[wtmusic]

7. No -- the 100,000 (and counting) people we've killed didn't get to vote

There is no self-determination. It has nothing to do with shades of gray; the election is a fraud.

[ComerPerro]

9. I would be happy if I believed that they were on the road to democracy

But, considering Bush's tendancies to lie shamelessly and to dwell in a fantasy world, and people in his administration's history of supporting tyrannical dictators (such as Saddam, for example), I just am not all that optimistic.

[Cocoa]

10. most of us aren't blindly denouncing the elections

but we're being inundated with ridiculous hype about them, and we're fighting against that hype.

Welcome to DU. If you were here around the time of the ridiculous "handover of sovereignty," or all the other events that were portrayed to us as proof Bush was right, people were saying the same thing as you are now. No one was "against" Saddam being captured, or Uday and Qusay being killed, or the drafting of the Iraqi constitution, or even the toppling of the stupid statue, or whatever, we were just properly skeptical about all those events.

[K-W]

11. The Iraqi people dont need fake elections.

Do you think these people are cavemen and dont know what elections and democracy are?

Do you honestly think that having a sham election for a sham government is going to make them better able to have democracy in the future?

Why would a sham election do anything but discourage them from democracy?

[Swamp Rat]

12. There was NO election in Iraq.

Fiction. TV fantasy. PR stunt.

[Joe Chi Minh]

21. It would

have been kind of ironic if it weren't, wouldn't it...?!?!

[Swamp Rat]

23. Yes, but we can still call it ironic on many levels.

[tnlefty]

13. C-span this a.m a woman read a headline about the "elections

being a great success", blah, blah, bullshit. Then she explained that the headline was to an article in the New York Times and related to the elections in VietNam. The date was in Sept. and I believe that she mentioned it was approx. 4 months to the day prior to the Tet Offensive.

I'll try to see if I can find it, and would appreciate anyone's help who can find it before I do.

I guess for some of us old enough to remember, these elections probably didn't change jack shit.

[Old and In the Way]

14. Hey, Bush-style elections were good enough for us, why should

the Iraqi's complain? The can enjoy their pretend democracy as much as we do.

I'd like to be hopeful, but the reality is, it's a vichy government until we exit their country and let them decide forge their own destiny. We can set the table and provide the carrots, but they have to cook the dinner....

[welshTerrier2]

15. the elections were TOTAL BULLSHIT

here's why ...

so many have stated how good it was to see a large turnout, at least in some areas of Iraq ... this information, which may or may not be at all accurate by the way, is cited as an indication that there is hope for the Iraqi people to be free and to have a real voice in their government ...

but take a deeper look and you'll see why some of us see little or no value to yesterday's vote ...

i think most of us would agree that we support the idea of democracy for all people all over the world ... the fact that there may have been a large turnout in Iraq only confirms what we already knew: people want, and should have, power over their own destinies ... it's no surprise that people would express this by voting ...

HOWEVER, the REAL PROBLEM has nothing to do with whether Iraqis want to be free and want the right to vote ... of course they do ... that's never been an issue and yesterday didn't reveal any new information whatsoever ... the real problem in Iraq is finding a solution to regional conflict ...

the Sunnis did not participate in yesterday's vote ... for example, Robert Fisk, chief Middle East correspondent for the London Independent, speaking today on Democracy Now said: "In Samarra for example, streets were reportedly deserted and fewer than 1,400 ballots were cast by a population of 200,000" ... showing long lines of pro-democracy Shia does not change that reality ... the solution to peace and democracy in Iraq is regional negotiations in an internationally supported framework ...

think about it this way ... before the elections, candidates were invisible ... there were no public debates, no candidate appearances, no democracy taking place ... then we had an election with long lines in some areas ... what has really changed ??? if candidates were afraid to be known and afraid to appear before the vote, do you think they will be less fearful now??? no progress, absolutely none, has been made towards resolving the central conflict ...

so i disagree that the election is a "gray" ... the truth is, the election wasn't anything ... the problem in Iraq, since Saddam was deposed, has always been the need to develop a workable formula for shared power ... how does having the Shia standing in long lines and voting produce a workable formula ??? the sad truth is that it doesn't ... the elections may have given some a "warm and fuzzy" but it's more important to keep your eye on the real ball ... the concern has always been the achilles heal of democracies which is the "tyranny of the majority" ... yesterday's vote in the absence of a negotiated formula failed to address this problem ...

[wishlist]

17. Total military lockdown required for voting to occur is troubling

The extreme shutdown under martial law using roadblocks and total curfews halting all normal public activity makes me think that the jubilatiion celebrating the election's great success is a bit premature under these circumstances.

[phusion]

16. Commentary by Robert Fisk

on Democracy Now this morning...

Interesting viewpoint on the elections.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/31/1516244

[Karenina]

18. What GALLS me

are these posts that ASSume the Iraqis are some primitive people who don't realize what they are dealing with. As if the "approval and kudos" of ignorant, arrogant folks and their *corporate-controlled media a half a world away means DIDDLYFUCKINSQUAT to the daily lives of an ancient people who have been there and done that and NOW have to do it again.

[K-W]

20. Awww look at all the cute little Iraqi's voting.

Now they know what freedom feels like. Maybe someday they can have elections all by them selves.

[Joe Chi Minh]

22. Ah... but

it takes a rare degree of sophistication to understand that freedom means might is right and never having to say you're sorry to anyone. It has nothing, of course, to do with the Christian notions of responsibility, sacrifice and commitment.

[kiraboo]

25. Yeah, and that's another thing.

You know darn well this is going to be viewed as a "Christian" victory over here in the U.S. And that's crap, plain and simple.

[Joe Chi Minh]

28. Anyone who thinks

that..needs to go back to Sunday school. You seem to think that all Christians in the US are "fundies", though, and that could not be further from the truth. Since when did your "fundies" believe in responsibility, sacrifice and commitment? They're like your "real-time" atheists, who don't accept and act upon the latter, either consciously or unconsciously.

[kiraboo]

32. This is driving me nuts.

I think I'm responding to somebody, and my response shows up five lines down. Sorry, all.

[kiraboo]

24. If I"m feeling conflicted about this election -

and I am, it is only because, once again, GWB appears to have won. And it irks me. My mother-in-law, who voted for * on the abortion issue, defended his foreign policy with, "Sometimes it takes evil to create great good." Is she right? Of course. And if democracy somehow takes root in Iraq, and the people do well, and consider their dead as a meaningful sacrifice...it pains me. Will Americans jump on board another war, confident now with two "successes" under our belt? How can we possibly argue that this is a bad thing if Iraqis themselves claim it a victory? I know, putting the cart before the horse. But this is my line of thinking.

[K-W]

26. I dont see why this will be any different than the interim gov't turnover.

Where pretty quick everyone realized that nothing changed.

[Joe Chi Minh]

29. That's a novel

notion of success... dividing the country along tribal lines more than ever! And you're not surely suggesting Afghanistan was the other "success", are you? No you wouldn't be that thick.

[kiraboo]

31. I put the word "successes" in quotes. Do you know why?

[kiraboo]

30. I don't think that at all, and I apologize for making it appear that I do.

I have a number of dear Christian friends, some of them actually in the ministry (& some who attended my recent Mourn the ReCoronation Party) and I respect their views. I am referring to nutcase fundies.

[Individualist]

27. Not conflicted at all; I always oppose fixed elections

Don't you?

[Ken Burch]

34. So should we assume they've wired it to elect Allawi and his mob?

When will the "results" be announced, BTW?