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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:09 PM
Original message
The Christian Right is growing out of control!
I am not saying this to attract attention to myself or get someone to reply to me with "Duh!". The Christian Right is growing, possibly by leaps and bounds, out of control.

The Christian Right delivers an Ultimatum to Bush

An Ultimatum?

I'm getting very concerned, very concerned.

This is a call and a warning to all of those who watch and support Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, etc.

These people are not good Christians, their minds are tainted with bigotry and greed. They have more of a lust for power than they have a want for helping their fellow man.

If Jesus came back today and believed that the Christian Right was the strongest figure in Christianity, he would most likely believe that Christianity is dead and has been destroyed by greed, bigotry, and intolerance.
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BamaLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Only White People That Voted For Kerry Were Lawyers
Or at least in my county. Only about 3,000 people gave him their vote out of the 14,000 that voted. :(
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BamaLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. All Socially Conservate BTW
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. You must be pretty tough to be a lefty in Alabama
and I salute you.

I don't wonder that your state is heavily Theocon. I drove through there a year and a half ago during the Roy Moore hoopla, and I couldn't believe the poison on the airwaves the full length of the state. It was far worse than anything else I've ever heard.

Considering the level and toxicity of the "Christian" propaganda in that state, I find the miracle to be that anyone had the courage to vote for Kerry at all.

Thank you.
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BamaLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. Not Just Vote For Him,
but have a bumper sticker on my car for him. It made me very proud to stand up for what is right.

I also replaced my yard sign 4 times.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. Oh wait, I AM a lawyer ...
Nevermind ...

Bake, Esq.
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HumblePiRSquared Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. Wow! How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Do you have the ballots with their names and profession attached? That would be a new twist to evidence.
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givemebackmycountry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. You are right...and this is just what we want....
Let them scream, and let them threaten damnation, and the casting out of our souls.

That's cool with me.

The more SpongeBob stories we see, the more it discredits their overzealous mindset.

I hope the Monkey gets it the middle of this too.

I hope he tries to do some of the bat shit insane things they are asking of him.

I am PRAYING that happens.

Like the monkey said...

"Bring it on"

These are people who don't understand they have a tail bone.

I for one, think that we should encourage them to reach for the stars.

And laugh as they plummet back to obscurity.

Assholes.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. I am concerned also--very much so. yet I feel that eventually (only the
goddesses know when)----they will hang themselves. People can only put up with just so much-and they fight back. maybe I dream a lot or maybe it is wishful thinking, but......if I did not hang onto this thought I will go bunkers!!
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ashling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I think I agree with you
but how many will they hang first?

oh, that's right they burn heretics at the stake don't they? :grr:
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. well, i see you are maintaining a sence of humor about this:-)
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ashling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. I'm deadly serious!
no pun intended
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. This is good, actually.
He's already blown them off after getting what he needed from them.

He won't even show his face at the right-to-life meetings-just calls in his "support."

Let them go mano a mano.

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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
9. i'm hoping
that the handling of poisonous snakes will become more popular with these people.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. The snakes aren't dumb
they know if they bite 'em they can die from poisoning.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. well, there's that
the way they treat their children, it's a wonder mr darwin's law has not already taken care of them.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. LOL!!!
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indigonation Donating Member (247 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
12. That is a blessing in diguise, their actions will further drive a wedge
thru the repug party. There's infighting about the Economy and the War. The Christian Reich angers the moderates. You know this is happening when you start agreeing with Pat Buchanan. Let them have at it.
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
13. I'm not too worried.

"This too shall pass". And thank God, so will they. I'm not sure that the "Christian" Right is increasing in numbers. I'm definitely sure their big mouths are bigger than usual.

I think the number of religious fanatics is about the same. But right now, they're having their Day in the Sun. They feel completely vindicated because their man is in Washington.

He's sticking up for them, Yes Siree. Their boy will fix the rest of us Upstart Whippersnappers, youbetcha.

Just give them time, Ck. Let them hang themselves with their own rope. The day will come when this country is in BIG trouble because of its policies. And we won't have to wait until we're old and gray.

The day is coming soon. Sooner than they think.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
14. well, such an ultimatum is a sign of weakness
Edited on Sun Jan-30-05 12:41 AM by Lexingtonian
I doubt the Christian Right is growing as you imagine- I suspect as a group they're stagnant or even overstretched and bound to be shrinking. If they were growing, Bauer and the like would try to leverage that. There definitely wouldn't be this kind of a desperate We're-at-our-max-and-still-too-weak sense within the letter.

I love the ridiculous circumlocutions they use to puff up their apparent strength in the letter (the "countless voters" and "unprecented numbers" bit) and the rhetorical elisions. Somehow, preventing gay marriage is the same as "preserving traditional marriage"- there is no empirical logic to this claim at all. Reading it as mere political shorthand- which it is- translates to such morally grotesque and humanly ridiculous plain text that I'd almost cry at the foolish predicament it tries to pretend righteousness about.

Look at the context. The Christian Right (aka theocratic) leadership has kept on telling its folk that one of these days there's gonna be a Christian Nation, and voting Republican is the way to get there. The outcome has really amounted to getting some amount of financial payoff and a few stupid state laws legislated, at best. For the amount of money and effort the CR base has put into it, they've gotten practically nothing except a status quo for twenty-some years. (Which is kind of impressive, but not what they wanted- to reverse 'the Sixties' in its social progress for women and gay folk.)

The Christian Right leadership really hasn't gotten their base much. So their power is wierdly precarious- it's not going to fragment much, but their base has ways of being politically nonideal: it gets depressed, passive, hopeless, and unwilling sacrifice more, and slinks away. Abortion is sort of the bedrock political issue, but that vein is tapped out. They've had to keep on agitating with Prayer In Schools and UnChristian Art and Radical Islam and Atheists Are Running The Country.

A column I saw a few days ago had this to say about gay marriage: if you look closely at everything the Christian Right says and does about it, in a fairly comprehensive way, it's an outlet for the frustrations at failure of their own "family values" beliefs and campaigning.

As I see it, anti-abortion is a stance that derives from/reflects the fertility cultism that people who grew up on farms cling to and also the prehistorical notion that the dignity of women (and all female creatures) derives from their bearing young as they are supposed to in The Great Scheme Of Things. "Family values" is what the churches and Christian Right had to offer the people of small communities- a selfcongratulatory moral superiority to clannishness and patriarchal families. But as ever more people have ever less agrarian context to their lives, anti-abortion stances become less and less important. And "family values" are failing so transparently that there is a terrible need to project, to blame someone or something rather than admit to the failure of patriarchy and clannishness as approaches in Modern times. That is the crisis the Christian Right leadership has to address somehow.

The fallout from the misplaced faith in "family values" is a need by the Right to savagely attack every alternative to patriarchy. So we have Jerry Falwell attacking feminism's voice in how social structure is to be- NOW is slandered as 'the National Organization of Witches'. We have Bauer and the rest attacking gay marriage and insisting on FMA. We have that federal judge in Tampa, in a suit to overturn the federal DoMA, claim that gay folk raising children is detrimental to these children- despite sufficient evidence to the contrary.

All of it reflects the thing feminists have long pointed out about their opposition: for patriarchalists, their solution for any and all failures of patriarchy is More Patriarchy.

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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
15. Oh God!!!!
I am having a really bad weekend. All started Friday when some stupid woman decided to sit in the middle of a two lane area of a parking lot at a local supermaret, hence, side swiping my car as she drove past. Today has been really bad, and very unsettling for me. And on top of everything that is currently going wrong, I find I am missing Sapph more and more with each passing day. :cry:

Now, on top of everything Sapph and I have had to deal with during three years of being forced to live seperately, I find out that these fucking low life jerks are issuing ultimatums in order to get their bigotry written into the United Stattes Constitution (yes guys, I did realize this was coming, but still.) Which leads me to ask these fucking low life pieces of shit just when did the Constitution of the United States only stand for the rights of those who are Christian Fundimentalists? Damn everyone else!

When are the Democratic leaders going to stand up and remind these idiots that the United States Constitution stands for ALL citizens of the United States? Not just those they deem worthy to live in their new Jesusland!

Do you guys realize that these fucking idiots are the reason Sapph and I are not living together? Do you guys know why the Permanent Partners Immigration Act has been stalled in Congress for the last five years, and The Senate for the last two years? Because the Repuke morons believe by allowing Sapph (a fucking citizen by birth) to sponsor me for immigration will ultimately lead to gay marriage? Tell me, how the fuck will immigration lead to gay marriage? Sapph and I aren't asking to be married, we are asking to be allowed to live together in her birth country. I swear it is like we are two underage kids asking mummy and daddy's permission for us to go out for a date. It is fuckng ridiculous!

I am tired of being treated like a fucking child who cannot make up its own mind. I am fucking 36 (almost 37) years old. I have been of concenting age (in my country) for some 20 (almost 21) years. The biggest mistake I ever made in my life was throw 15 years of my life away on a relationship with a man, because I was told that society expected me to live that way.

Well you know what? I say to these fuckers that Sapph and I love one another more than they could ever imagine (remember, it takes a heart to love someone) and no matter what they do, they will never break us up. They will never force us to go back in the closet and begin living a straight life. God gave us this life for a reason, and it is them who needs to begin questioning their religion for its teaching of intolerance and bigotry!

Sapph and I have lasted three long hard years through their interferance on our life. They haven't broken us now, they better begin to realize they will never break us!

God I am so sick of these idiots! I think I will go and get drunk and try to calm down some. Sorry about the outburst everyone!


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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. I am really sorry
that this country and these jesus-kissing wack jobs have made your life so unhappy.

It is horrible that our relationships aren't respected even though they are just as (if not more) deserving of respect. I've been with the same woman for over 12 years. We've never hidden our relationship.

I really resent hetero couples who show their affection in public. A hetero couple can celebrate their anniversary with a quiet, romantic dinner in a public restaurant. We can't without getting glares and nasty comments.

I resent having to explain our relationship when we make large purchases, visit one another in the hospital or doctor's office, or check into a hotel.

I resent a whole lot and I'm angry just like you. I have no advice to give but just know that I understand and I'm really sorry about your situation. We need to stay angry and demand no less than respect.
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Proud Liberal Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
16. But aren't they still persecuted?????
For all of the power that they supposedly possess (and they must think that they have a lot it since they become given to issuing "ultimatums" to our elected officials and believe that Bush won a "mandate" in 2004), they sure do whine a lot about being persecuted, don't they? If anybody is persecuting anybody nowadays it is them who are unabashedly persecuting atheists, agnostics, gays/lesbians/bisexuals/transgendered persons, "liberals," pro-choicers, Democrats, feminists, environmentalists, and, heck, just about anybody who does not share all or most of their warped worldview. Their insistence at bringing their religious worldview into the political sphere and trying to legislate their personal religiously based(?) beliefs on a largely unwilling public has forced them to face the reality that not everybody thinks the same way that they do and that the public, by and large, is only willing to go so far in terms of accepting their agenda and they can't stand the fact that people might...gasp....disagree with them so they play this annoying "persecution" card to try to win sympathy votes for themselves. I personally believe that the Christian Right has achieved what they have achieved largely because there are a lot of people who probably wouldn't support their policies but who are not actively engaged in the political process and don't have a clue what is going or whom haven't been adversely affected by their wacky policies..... at least not yet. I think that our goal should be to get more people (re-) engaged in the political process (Democrats AND well-meaning Republicans-there are still SOME out there who do NOT support the Christian Right agenda and genuinely want REAL bipartisanship) and expose as much people to their agenda as possible and try to communicate to them how their might affect our country and them personally. Otherwise, we will just have to wait out this madness and hope that once they overreach (and I'm sure they will eventually), their public support in Washington and throughout our country will more or less evaporate and we can start worrying about finding real solutions to real problems instead of obsessing about legions of gays and lesbians wanting to sign up to be married or finding ways to shut down abortion clinics.
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. You raised a couple of good points...
...but also made a few errors along the way.

"But aren't they still persecuted?????"

Firstly, you need to clarify who you are saying is still persecuted against? Do you mean the religious right, or do you mean the LGBT community?

Yes the religious right will play the persecution card for all its worth. They like to claim that religions are discriminated against without actually taking into account the actual meaning of discrimination.

Remember the religious right loves to play the wounded dog. And like everyone to think that the real minority groups which are persecuted against on a daily basis, really aren't persecuted against at all. (I hope that makes sense. It is coming up to midnight for me, and because I am suffering from second degree sunburn at the minute, I haven't actually had a decent night sleep in several nights.)

Their insistence at bringing their religious worldview into the political sphere and trying to legislate their personal religiously based(?) beliefs on a largely unwilling public has forced them to face the reality that not everybody thinks the same way that they do and that the public, by and large, is only willing to go so far in terms of accepting their agenda and they can't stand the fact that people might...gasp....disagree with them so they play this annoying "persecution" card to try to win sympathy votes for themselves.

You say the public is largely unwilling to have the religious rights bigoted and intolerant beliefs forced onto them. My question to you has to be, if you truly believe that, then why did 11 states pass marriage amendments banning same sex marriage(and remember some also included a Claus to ban any and all recognition of same sex relationships completely) all together?

The religious right has one thing going for it and one thing only. They use FEAR as an excellent technique of getting their beliefs out there and supported in the general public.

People say that most people these days know someone through either family or friendship that is gay. But if that is the case, how did the religious right manage to scare 11 states into submission? Because they used the FEAR card. And a public which is burnt out from three years of terrorism fear being played on them, didn't see this coming.

The media is supporting Bush* and his band of thugs 110%. So the truth behind a lot of stuff isn't actually getting out. Now you tell me how we can make Jo Redneck from the backwoods understand that the gay community isn't actually about making his two children Billy Bob and Mary Ann gay. You can't! Because Jo Redneck doesn't live where there happen to be a lot of queers. So Jo Redneck can't sit back and watch the lesbian family down the road.

That is why in the majority of nations around the world you will find that the major cities usually will swing to the left, while the country folk tend to sway to the right.

Think about this for a moment: Here we have little Johny growing up in San Francisco. He goes to one of the many diverse schools in that city. Each and every day he is exposed not only to the best education, but to just how diverse his nation is. Little Johny will most likely grow up to be tolerant of others, and not listen when the religious right comes along and says that them thar queers are all about destroying his family! Now you take little Bill Bob Redneck who has grown up in the backwoods. He attends a small little school that doesn't have the best eduction the nation has to offer. A school that doesn't have really any diversity at all. There are no queers, just little Billy Bobs running around everywhere. When Billy Bob grows up and is working on the family farm and the religious right comes along and says to him them thar queers are all about destroying your family, what do you think Billy Bob's reaction will be?

The religious right isn't about getting votes for themselves. They are about getting people into government who they know will do what ever they want for one simple reason. Those people they have placed in office love the money the religious right gives them. In return, they give the religious right what ever they want.

What is wrong with the left if we cannot organize ourselves properly and begin a movement much like the religious right, and getting people into office that will work for us? After all, it is the left that is made up of actors, artists, authors, Dr's, lawyers, etc. So there is money and intelligence on our side. But why are we so complacent as to not mobilize ourselves like they have?

instead of obsessing about legions of gays and lesbians wanting to sign up to be married

Remember, the right used the gay marriage issue against us. The LGBT community was not making moves to have gay marriage legalized in the United States at the time when Bush* came out and started talking about an amendment to the constitution.

Yes there are some queer couples that do want to get married. Sapphocrat and I hope to marry one day. But not all couples want to marry. As I said in my above post, all Sapph and I truly want is to be able to live together. And there happen to be a lot of other couples out there with more pressing issues than marriage.

As for Sapph and me, well it would be nice if our countries would recognize the validity of our marriage when we do get married, but unfortunately that won't happen at least in my country any time soon (Australia passed an amendment last year banning gay marriage here.) But regardless, for Sapph and me, no matter what our countries believe to us, in our hearts, and in our minds, and in our God's eyes, we will be married, and that is all that is important.

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Mikimouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. For what it's worth...
During the time that I have been here, I have read about you and Sapphocrat quite often. My heart goes out to you both, and I fully support your position. Is there any chance of a resolution short of the US coming to its senses? Is it possible to get a third-party sponsor? Sending hugs to you both. :hug:
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Pegleg Thd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. From what I know
about robertson, falwell and their sheep-- they have never been christian--they have never been right. But they are sociopaths and drunks.
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Mikimouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. ?...Were you intending to respond to the OP?...n/t
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. They are giggling killers
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. I have to take issue with one thing that you said
Just because "little Johnny" grows up in Frisco, and Little Jane grows up in rural Oklahoma doesn't necessarily mean that Johnny is ALWAYS going to be more tolerant than Jane.

Just slightly over half of the flaming liberals that I know grew up in rural Iowa or rural Illinois or rural Virginia or the Red areas of the Southwest -- they grew up there, before they moved to Boston, LA, Frisco, Seattle, Portland, NYC, Chicago, etc.

I will say that most of these people that I know grew up in VERY small towns and rural areas (like pop 10,000 and under), and I have yet to meet a liberal who grew up in a suburb of one of the large southern cities, which I hear are basically Kingdoms of Mammon Jesus.

Those are the people are like the "new" rednecks. I think they call them the "exurbs" or something.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
28. I would substitute "has long been" for "is growing"
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