Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Just got this email: Latest RW propoganda piece

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:53 PM
Original message
Just got this email: Latest RW propoganda piece
Guest Column: No Relief in Sight for the Lincoln

By Ed Stanton

It has been three weeks since my ship, the USS Abraham Lincoln, arrived

off the Sumatran coast to aid the hundreds of thousands of victims of

the Dec. 26 tsunami that ravaged their coastline. I'd like to say that

this has been a rewarding experience for us, but it has not: Instead, it

has been a frustrating and needlessly dangerous exercise made even more

difficult by the Indonesian government and a traveling circus of

so-called aid workers who have invaded our spaces.

What really irritated me was a scene I witnessed in the Lincoln's

wardroom a few days ago. I went in for breakfast as I usually do,

expecting to see the usual crowd of ship's company officers in khakis

and air wing aviators in flight suits, drinking coffee and exchanging

rumors about when our ongoing humanitarian mission in Sumatra is going

to end.



What I saw instead was a mob of civilians sitting around like they owned

the place. They wore various colored vests with logos on the back

including Save The Children, World Health Organization and the dreaded

baby blue vest of the United Nations. Mixed in with this crowd were a

bunch of reporters, cameramen and Indonesian military officers in

uniform. They all carried cameras, sunglasses and fanny packs like

tourists on their way to Disneyland.



My warship had been transformed into a floating hotel for a bunch of

trifling do-gooders overnight.



As I went through the breakfast line, I overheard one of the U.N.

strap-hangers, a longhaired guy with a beard, make a sarcastic comment

to one of our food servers. He said something along the lines of "Nice

china, really makes me feel special," in reference to the fact that we

were eating off of paper plates that day. It was all I could do to keep

from jerking him off his feet and choking him, because I knew that the

reason we were eating off paper plates was to save dishwashing water so

that we would have more water to send ashore and save lives. That plus

the fact that he had no business being there in the first place.



My attitude towards these unwanted no-loads grew steadily worse that day

as I learned more from one of our junior officers who was assigned to

escort a group of them. It turns out that they had come to Indonesia to

"assess the damage" from the Dec. 26 tsunami.



Well, they could have turned on any TV in the world and seen that the

damage was total devastation. When they got to Sumatra with no plan, no

logistics support and no five-star hotels to stay in, they threw

themselves on the mercy of the U.S. Navy, which, unfortunately, took

them in. I guess our senior brass was hoping for some good PR since this

was about the time that the U.N. was calling the United States "stingy"

with our relief donations.



As a result of having to host these people, our severely over-tasked

SH-60 Seahawk helos, which were carrying tons of food and water every

day to the most inaccessible places in and around Banda Aceh, are now

used in great part to ferry these "relief workers" from place to place

every day and bring them back to their guest bedrooms on the Lincoln at

night. Despite their avowed dedication to helping the victims, these

relief workers will not spend the night in-country, and have made us

their guardians by default.



When our wardroom treasurer approached the leader of the relief group

and asked him who was paying the mess bill for all the meals they ate,

the fellow replied, "We aren't paying, you can try to bill the U.N. if

you want to."



In addition to the relief workers, we routinely get tasked with hauling

around reporters and various low-level "VIPs," which further wastes

valuable helo lift that could be used to carry supplies. We had to

dedicate two helos and a C-2 cargo plane for America-hater Dan Rather

and his entourage of door holders and briefcase carriers from CBS News.

Another camera crew was from MTV. I doubt if we'll get any good PR from

them, since the cable channel is banned in Muslim countries. We also

had to dedicate a helo and crew to fly around the vice mayor of Phoenix,

Ariz., one day. Everyone wants in on the action.



As for the Indonesian officers, while their job is apparently to

encourage our leaving as soon as possible, all they seem to do in the

meantime is smoke cigarettes. They want our money and our help but they

don't want their population to see that Americans are doing far more for

them in two weeks than their own government has ever done or will ever

do for them.



To add a kick in the face to the USA and the Lincoln, the Indonesian

government announced it would not allow us to use their airspace for

routine training and flight proficiency operations while we are saving

the lives of their people, some of whom are wearing Osama bin Ladin

T-shirts as they grab at our food and water. The ship has to steam out

into international waters to launch and recover jets, which makes our

helos have to fly longer distances and burn more fuel.



What is even worse than trying to help people who totally reject

everything we stand for is that our combat readiness has suffered for

it.



An aircraft carrier is an instrument of national policy and the big

stick she carries is her air wing. An air wing has a set of very

demanding skills and they are highly perishable. We train hard every day

at sea to conduct actual air strikes, air defense, maritime

surveillance, close air support and many other missions - not to mention

taking off and landing on a ship at sea.



Our safety regulations state that if a pilot does not get a night

carrier landing every seven days, he has to be re-qualified to land on

the ship. Today we have pilots who have now been over 25 days without a

trap due to being unable to use Indonesian airspace to train. Normally

it is when we are at sea that our readiness is at its very peak. Thanks

to the Indonesian government, we have to waive our own safety rules just

to get our pilots off the deck.



In other words, the longer we stay here helping these people, the more

dangerous it gets for us to operate. We have already lost one

helicopter, which crashed in Banda Aceh while taking sailors ashore to

unload supplies from the C-130s. There were no relief workers on that

one.



I'm all for helping the less fortunate, but it is time to give this

mission to somebody other than the U.S. Navy. Our ship was supposed to

be home on Feb. 3 and now we have no idea how long we will be here.

American taxpayers are spending millions per day to keep this ship at

sea and getting no training value out of it. As a result, we will come

home in a lower state of readiness than when we left due to the lack of

flying while supporting the tsunami relief effort.



I hope we get some good PR in the Muslim world out of it. After all,

this is Americans saving the lives of Muslims. I have my doubts.



Ed Stanton is the pen name of a career U.S. Navy officer currently

serving with the USS Abraham Lincoln carrier strike group. Send Feedback

responses to dwfeedback@yahoo.com .

_____



Bill McDermott
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. Am always puzzled as to why a DUer would waste Skinner's bandwidth
quoting winger pap in its entirety thereby giving it a wider audience and NOT add any personal comments about it. Do you have any idea why a DUer would do that? :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Gee, now that you ask me, The initial comment was that I consider
it propoganda and a new BS piece of it.

I threw it out for discussion and figured most DUers would be bright enough to make up their own minds without help from me.



If you think I posted this incorrectly, alert on it. Don't try to get it on with me, I won't play that game.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. *spew* *LOL* OMG,...THAT is the funniest full moon I've ever seen!!!
My belly hurts from that gem *LOL*.

With respect to the post,...it is ashame that there are those so quick to hate/condemn/persecute others who spend their whole lives as caregivers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
31. I got that one too
Thanks to you DUers for the debunking links - I just sent it and the links back to the freep from whom it came.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Do they really believe that by sending an unsubsantiated piece
of poor creative writing, they will forward their cause when people check facts so easily on the internet? And why the hell don't they check the facts themselves so they don't end up looking like the idiots that they must be?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Ya got me
but I think its great that they do! :evilgrin:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. what a little mind
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. Sounds just like the propaganda chain emails from Bob Jones U professor
who has been writing these bogus stories for over 8 years now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I was just going to say that!
Actually, all of these right wing propaganda pieces all have the same feel, as do the scam fundraising letters they send out. I think they're all crafted by at most 3 or 4 PR/Direct Mail firms.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. Talk about "cherry-picking". They not only do it with "intelligence",...
,...but also anything else that advances their fascist tendencies!!!

Truly disgusting!!!

I can honestly say that I HATE their world and want no part of it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. And to think our Navy was getting good press from the great job
they are doing and not getting shot at to boot ! Maybe the naval bases in Pakistan and Bangladesh that the Chinese want to set up wouldn't even be considered with more humanitarian style missions...but letters like this one getting posted only make the Navy look stupid. Consider the (real) source.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wah, freakin wah
I'm sure this is another of his *EXAGGERATIONS*
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DenverDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. Typical lying publican mythological manure.
Fuck the wrong wing and their bullshit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. What a jerk!
I have friends involved in civilian relief operations in Aceh. They are working hard on the ground and have written detailed reports about their valuable activities. This guy sounds bitter. What a nasty sourpuss. Time for him to come home and stop spreading his bitterness. He certainly isn't doing much for America's PR, and goodness knows we need some good PR after all that is happening in Iraq.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
two gun sid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
7. This piece was not written by a Naval officer
It has a feel of total bullshit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. There's even a rabidly RW site I found that is poking holes in this:
http://www.blackfive.net /

Snopes is still undecided on it but it's still pretty new.

Just another jerk out there who believes that if it doesn't come from Bushco, it is evil.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
two gun sid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. The naval 'jargon' isn't right
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 05:23 PM by two gun sid
A real salty motherfucker would never call a 'mess crank' a 'server'. the 'weirdroom' ain't fuckin' TGIFridays.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rppper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. i was thinking that very thing.......
whoever wrote that letter has served zero, zippo, nada, noe, nothing...sea time, except possibly a swimming pool floatie...here is a credible retort to mr. stantons rant.....

As a Navy helicopter pilot flying humanitarian assistance/disaster relief missions to the island of Sumatra, Indonesia, I was startled and dismayed by the inaccuracies of Ed Stanton's editorial, "No Relief in Sight for the Lincoln." While I can't comment on the actual individual who drafted the article (he chose to hide behind a pen name), his writing is indicative of a disgruntled officer who hasn't actually seen the true scope of the devastation ashore or the work that is being done by his shipmates to help.

The people of Indonesia genuinely appreciate our assistance. There are homemade American flags that the hungry and injured have made and display in the makeshift landing zones where we drop off medical supplies, food, and water to prove it. My heart swells with pride (and I choke up a little) every time I see hundreds of displaced persons cheer, salute, and flash a big smile or a thumbs-up when my crewmen are off-loading boxes marked with red, white, and blue stickers that proclaim, "Food from the American People."

The Indonesian government (rightly so) is in charge of the overall relief effort underway on the western coast of Sumatra. Last time I checked, it is their country. Simply put, we are here to aid them with their recovery. We are merely one part of what could end up as the largest relief effort in history. The resources and personnel of the Abraham Lincoln Carrier Strike Group are working in concert with the people of Indonesia, other nations, militaries, and a host of non-governmental relief agencies including US AID, Red Cross & Red Crescent Society, WHO, UNICEF, Doctors without Borders, and the WFP.

The civilians that have been transported by our helicopters and have been hosted aboard the carrier are not a "traveling circus" of aid workers or "trifling do-gooders." On the contrary, these are professionals who have years of experience in mitigating human suffering and tragedy. While there are many highly trained men and women deployed alongside me, there are few (if any) who have expertise in the prediction of malaria transmission vectors, the proper disposal of tens of thousands of human remains, creating a system to match orphaned children with distant relatives, reviving an entire economy, prioritizing bridges or roads to be re-built, or any of the other skills sets that are so critical to disaster relief.

I find it curious that Mr. Stanton complains about having to wait in line to get food behind men and women who are supporting the same mission as his brothers and sisters in arms. He fails to mention that, in addition to a hot meal or two and a bed to sleep in, the carrier is providing planning space to aid in coordinating the operation, computer and communications assistance, and video teleconferencing services for lead international relief workers and organizations. Comparable facilities in Sumatra have been completely destroyed or are without power. The key to the US military's withdrawal from this operation is a speedy turnover with international organizations that can provide the same services and support-the very reason that they were onboard the USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

The description of an aircraft carrier as an "instrument of national policy" is accurate. The belief that the offensive strike capability of the air wing she carries is the only way to project this policy is flawed. Here in Indonesia, such an assumption is a slap in the face to the sailors who volunteered to go ashore and load thousands of pounds of rice into helicopters each day in the tropical heat. It fails to take into account the talent of the ship's engineering teams that were able to repair generators at the local hospital and restore electrical power. It overlooks the heroism of the navy medical personnel that saved countless lives in the wake of the tsunami's devastation. It doesn't begin to calculate the strategic value of clothing donations, a soccer ball tossed from a helicopter, or a handful of candy given to children who have lost everything they have.

With respect to the media, the only negative portrayal of Operation UNIFIED ASSISTANCE (the name given to the US military's regional response to the tsunami disaster) I have seen was Mr. Stanton's. The Indonesian press has praised our work and questioned the paucity of relief assistance from other Islamic nations. Military service members often complain that the media "doesn't get it right" and fails to cover all of the positive work we do; this time the media got it right and Mr. Stanton got it wrong.

Sincerely,

LCDR Jeff Vorce, USN
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
38. Unless the military has done a 180 since I grew up in it, no naval
officer would write something like this without consequences. The Navy does not like negative press from its officer corp.

Sounds like BS.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. I understand.
The aircraft carrier and its crew are supposed to kill people and destroy things.

This guy is obviously bitter at being forced to (gasp) do something that actually makes the World a better place to live.

The USA currently spends 1.3 BILLION Dollars per day to kill people and destroy things. Taking a little time out to help people is too much to ask.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sweetbutterfly Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
12. Uncertain as to whether that "account" is true
but here is the reply from a verifiable source on the USS Lincoln:

http://www.penraker.com/archives/001121.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. That's where I found the RW site in the post above...
I'll give it three days before it is decidedly debunked. But the truth doesn't matter to these jerks, Jessica Lynch went down fighting like Rambo and Kerry was never in Nam.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
34. That's not a "verifiable source" and the email is total bullshit which
Edited on Sun Jan-30-05 02:42 AM by LynnTheDem
has already been debunked.

Sorry. ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
14. Guess this guy
would rather be pounding sand in Iraq.

Geeez, if his attitude is representative of the rest of our military who are working on the tsunmai relief it's no wonder that the locals are wearing Osama shirts.

Mz Pip
:dem:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
16. Kindly do not track that kind of shit across the carpet...
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 05:29 PM by troubleinwinter
it serves no purpose at all, and it stinks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. "it serves not purpose at all..."
Is that Olde English?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Ooooo... a typo! Guess I was overcome by the stench.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. LOL.... I never have tipos
Hey, I didn't write the piece but I do feel it's good to be aware of the type of shit they are slinging out there.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Virginia Dem Donating Member (41 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. oh hell people...grow the hell up
it's no worse than anything we do.

My party needs a serious flushing and people who hate so much that they are blind to the world should be the first to be flushed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. ??? You wanna 'splain that one to me Lucy?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #24
36. One of the best features on DU
is the "search by author" function. So much is explained using it. ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. Dontcha know it!
Interesting patterns.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Berserker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. links please
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maccagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. If you think "we" are just as bad
it begs the question-Why are you here?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #23
35. What's this "we" shit?
Kemosabe. ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Berserker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. It's total bullshit
I really liked the part about eating off paper plates to save water so they could save lives. The writer should have done a little studying on naval ships and water resources. I wonder who sets around and writes this shit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
39. Sorry to disagree, but I am glad to find out about this POS, and the
response. I am more than certain that this letter will come over the RW county email list I belong to, and I will be able to debunk it. Some on the list will still believe, but maybe the RW military retirees will see the truth.

Had on Colonel (Ret.) whine about the lack of DOD services for retirees this morning, and I loaded up an email on what was happening to the returning DAV.

Trying to spread the truth, one email at a time. And DU is a big help.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
26. HOLY SHIT the propaganda gatekeepers must think freepers are dumb assholes
I laughed my ass off reading this. It HAS to be the work of a very bad propagandizer, or someone mocking propaganda. I mean, it's almost like an alternative universe, I MEAN O MY GOD SOMEONE MUST STOP SAVE THE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!

And the U.S. military is spending billions of our tax dollars pursuing PNAC delusions of grandeur. I'd rather see it go to helping people.

If someone actually thought like this, it's no wonder that the whole world thinks we're assholes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Those were my thoughts. I actually was forwarded this piece of
shite by an MBA from a good school. I answered with "I have some nice waterfront property I'd be interested in selling."

It is amazing how gullible these people are.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
40. These "things" all read as if they come from 3 or 4 people at most
The sentence structure and everything else in these rw e-rants always speaks loudly but in monotone.

Maybe there's a "FReeper Correspondence School for Bad Writing?"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. LOL! They do seem to come from the same pen.
Stilted and sputing the same talking points over and over.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Aug 28th 2014, 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC