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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:49 PM
Original message
"...America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;..."

http://www.buzzflash.com/mailbag/05/01/mai05021.html

-snip-

Subject: Wisdom From The Founders

The Treaty of Barbary was unanimously approved by the Senate and signed by President John Adams in 1797. It contains the following article: Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

http://www.acsblog.org/bill-of-rights ... (American Constitution Society)

...Because it completely destroys the notion that America is a "Christian nation."

Ian
-snip-
----------------------------

next time someone wants to change history, whip out Art. 11 and set them straight.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Not According To These People
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. 55 minutes long. Lost me at less than 3 minutes into it.
Where do these flakes come from?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. Nice.
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andyhappy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. kick it
I was actually thinking of maing a flash animation public service announcement about how our forefathers were deists and how radical the concept of seperation of church and state is

this is the kind of info that really needs to get out there.

I can't belive how mmany pundits keep saying our christian founders blah blah blah and nobody calls them on it!

thanks forr the post!
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DARE to HOPE Donating Member (552 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water...
Yes, the Founding Fathers were Deists. Yes, there is separation of church and state, ie, no bishop consorts with the king to put all us subjects under their feet. (Unless you want to call Falwell a bishop--I call him a CIA asset.)

On the other hand, our whole legal tradition is based upon English common law, both civil and criminal, drawing our notion of human rights and fairness from the Bible.

Would you rather we draw our ideas of fairness and humanity from the Abu Ghraib approving criminals who secretly worship the Great Owl and the lust of Money and Power? These people are constantly raising the whole Christian business 1) to divide us, which they are surely doing, and 2) to destroy Christendom, in order to put themselves in the role of god, just as Hitler did.

Be careful what you ask for (an entirely godless society?)--you might just get it.
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BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Baloney.
Our notions of human rights and fairness did not come from the Bible. They evolved from centuries of protest and rebellion against obvious injustice. Luckily in the West, religion didn't fully succeed in making people accept their sorry state in society.

Unless you are talking about burning witches, in which case, you are correct. That came from the Bible (or so they said at the time). Or slavery,...,etc.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Slavery predates the Bible too ;)
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Or maybe the dominionist state that Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell want
You know, the guys who said that we deserved 9/11, because it was a punishment from God for all the homosexuals and feminists?
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. An entirely godless society may be a good thing.
"Those who follow Christ, do not believe. Those who believe, do not follow Him."

Look at what religion has gotten us so far. Lots of death and destruction by those speaking for their god. Even using the same Bible and the same God as those they are killing.
When will it end?
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ashmanonar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. john lennon had the right idea.
if there's no money, no country, no ideology or religion to kill for, what would make people kill each other?
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Fairness and human rights did not come from the bible.
These concepts existed before the bible was written and before christ and independently of western tradition.

Good grief.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Gee, that's interesting, I thought early Greece conceptualized Democracy
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 07:38 PM by ultraist
way before Christianity came about. Early philsophers such as Aristotle & Socrates talked a little bit about fairness and law too.

Hmmm...not sure the Bible was the source that provided all of these concepts.

We can go back further than that too. But if you want to keep it within the context of Western ideas and reject looking at an Eastern concepts (from where these originated), then I suppose Greece & Rome are just as good of starting points as anywhere.

edit: responding to dare to hope
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Hong Kong Cavalier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Common law...
came into being 200 years before Christianity was introduced in England.

Thought you should know.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. Could the concepts of justice and fairness have originated in...
Iraq?

That would be Ironic.
Beyond knowing that Iraq is the Cradle of Civilization, I know little.
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ezekiel333 Donating Member (507 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Correct...
And you know a lot more than those who are completely ignorant of their history, i.e. modern "Christians" (term loosely applied).
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Well, the first written law was from there...
So you could say that, the Code may have been harsh, but I believe no one was exempt from it, rich or poor, which was probably revolutionary back then. Oh, wait, its still revolutionary today, my bad! I wish humans would learn.
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ezekiel333 Donating Member (507 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Well said. n/t
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Imagine that.
Equal Justice for ALL.
What a concept!
I wonder if we can do that here?
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DARE to HOPE Donating Member (552 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Today's Bible lessons at my church...
The Beatitudes "blessed are the peacemakers" et al (Christ's Sermon on the Mount) and from Micah 6:8 (@800 BCE):

"What is required from thee, but to do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with your God?"

From civil rights to women's rights to all the anti-war and and environmental fights I have been a part of, it is the faith in a God who sees and loves all people that has sustained me.

And the early women's vote activist who was jailed and fined in 1818 appealed her case in the court as fighting the tyranny of men because she owed her allegiance instead to God--they had her speech on this afternoon on C-Span2 as a part of the Howard Zinn reader. The faith that sustained our own movements of rebellion is also a part of our American history, much as the priest Las Casas writing and agitating for a different Gospel than that of the swaggering Spaniards hanging with Columbus.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
20. Well, that's easy for him to say!
He didn't have the wisdom of some guy in a cheap suit plucking bible verses out of context and spinning them to promote his agenda.

If he had only seen the light as a Falwell or Robertson could preach it, his mind would have been instantly changed.
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