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"Lord will provide" is the fundie arguement against welfare & Soc. Sec.!

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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:45 AM
Original message
"Lord will provide" is the fundie arguement against welfare & Soc. Sec.!

Can't recall wher I saw this yesterday but that's the rationale for destroying social programs. Seems if we LET the Lord provide, he will--implying that welfare and other social programs are against God's law.

Jesus, if you're really a diety, you'd better make an encore ASAP.

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BR_Parkway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
1. So let the old folks who believe this send their SS checks back in
to help with the "imminent threat to SS collapse". Seems like the church is always wanting them to back up their faith with cash, here's a perfect opportunity.
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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. I thought the Lord guided us to create Social Security -- you know,
that whole part about helping the hungy etc.
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ashmanonar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
43. yea...
from what little i know or want to remember about christianity...it seems that god doesn't like to work in direct ways (feeding people directly, or making a house appear out of nowhere for a homeless person to live in) but would rather have that poor or homeless or hungry person's brethren help. i suppose it's a theological concern, but even so. is it god that feeds the hungry, or is it the spirit of god in fellowmen that does?
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
3. I have a friend who has lost her job due to right wing policies
She is a Christian. I took her to dinner the other evening, because I'm very concerned about her. During our conversation about her months of meagerly getting by, she looks at me acros the table and says, "The Lord will provide."

Well, it isn't the Lord providing. It's the good-hearted people who want to take care of her and make sure she doesn't suffer any more than she already has. This woman is in dire financial straits and she's looking to a bipolar religious symbol to help her. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. The Lord also helps those who help themselves.

I prefer the words of Jesus, "Whatsoever ye do unto the least of these, ye do unto me." God may not like Social Security because it takes away a couple of his marionette strings, but I'm quite confident that Jesus thinks it's a compassionate and Christian program.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
47. It certainly sounds like you, not "The Lord", provided...
I'm curious about the dinner table conversation. How do you talk to someone like her? About what?
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pdxmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
4. How do they know that the Lord isn't providing, by making
men (and women)smart enough and compassionate enough to create programs that assist. Maybe these social programs are the Lord's way of providing.

Stupid people.
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thecorster Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
5. I disagree
I don't think this is Republicans' mentality. Their mentality is "government doesn't owe money to poor people because they are lazy." Republicans believe poor people are looking for a handout, when in actuality they are looking for a hand up.

The Christian "Lord will provide" mentality is the one held by optimistic downtrodden citizens. Even when Bush pisses on them, they have hope. Poor bastards.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. If I hear, "Poor people are poor because they want to be," one more
time, I'll :puke:
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journalist3072 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
30. The Dunce (From Salon.com)
Check out this article from Salon.com.

It is an interview they did with Shrub's old professor from Harvard Business School. He says Shrub once said in class "The government doesn't have to help poor people -- because they are lazy."

http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2004/09/16/tsurum...
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. hear hear..
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
28. I agree with the first part of your post,
"I don't think this is Republicans' mentality. Their mentality is "government doesn't owe money to poor people because they are lazy." Republicans believe poor people are looking for a handout, when in actuality they are looking for a hand up."

Those 'pubs seem to forget that we workers put that money there in
the first place. It's not the government's money. We need to keep
reminding them of that. I'm not going to stand idly by while they
are trying to give my hard-earned money to Wall Street and cover up
the fact they've been 'dipping' in the till! 30 years' of work for
that? Nuh uh.

"The Christian "Lord will provide" mentality is the one held by optimistic downtrodden citizens. Even when Bush pisses on them, they have hope. Poor bastards."

I don't agree with the second. Believe it or not, there are Christians
(like myself) who know for a fact that the Lord provides when
we need it the most if we have the faith. This was the way it was
long before the Evil Chimp slimed his way into power and it will
remain that way long after he is (hopefully) thrown from power.
You can bet your sweet ass I have hope that this will happen. I've
been f*cked with by Chimpie but don't consider myself "downtrodden."
There's plenty of fight left in this liberal.

I understand how you feel about the RW fundies,
but please don't ball liberal Christians who are not a bit fooled
by the RW into that group. It does show an intolerance towards Christianity.

Believe as you will as it's your right to do so. Don't knock what you don't believe though.

You may be extremely misinformed.
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thecorster Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. maybe I didn't articulate
I was trying to say that Christians generally have an optimistic outlook because of their faith. Sorry if it came across as condescending.
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #37
49. Yep, we do
and no offense to be taken. :-)
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joefree1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
6. Fundie thinking: Social Security = low birth rate
Saw this in a article yesterday. The fundies think Social Security is making people feel too secure and so they're not having children anymore. Guess you can say the same thing about big Government.


Download the free PDF letter size art here:
http://www.ediablo.com/small_art2/dont_blame_me.pdf
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Wow, all those 65+ yearl old senior citizens
not having children. What a surprise?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
7. All you have to do is visit some of those red states.
You will find out, standing in line in the supermarket, that the Lord provides a lot of food stamps in those places courtesy of the federal government. Damn, these people and their lack of reasoning exasperate me.
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
9. Does that apply to corporate welfare?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Of course not. It is the right of the corporation to take all
the tax money needed to meet their bottom line and stockholder's obligations.
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. GM is spending $4billion on new factories in China due to tax breaks
Must be "God's will"

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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
11. So what explains the great depression?
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
14. Just as he provided before there was social
security and other social welfare programs in the US.

Why is it that Europe, where fundie christianity does not reign supreme, has a more generous social welfare program?
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No Exit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
15. "Look at the birds of the air"... they do not make war
yet they are provided for...
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CAG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
16. One of their ridiculous arguments...
is that all those taxes us christian people pay for "socialist" policies such as welfare and SS harms our ability to give our tithes to the church. So, if we cut all of these taxes, more money would go to the churches so that they could provide for the poor and needy.

Of course, thats a lousy excuse. Its more our tendency to need the big house on the block with the three car garage and the two $40,000 SUV's in the garage and all of our new clothes and the latest plasma TV that gets in our way of giving our tithes. But the southern baptist pastors and others of the christian right don't want us to feel guilty about our extravagances, or else we would go down the street to the other christian right church.

The last thing these churches would do is spend more money on the poor and needy. They need the money to buy a bigger gymnasium (what is it with churches and gymnasiums, I don't get it) and build a bigger staff.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Church gyms require showers and clothes-changing. Get it?
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
17. No..the Lord provides in the form of faith based funding which is welfare
for religious institutions.
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
18. They throw a lot of morals around but they...
... never put their money where their mouth is. If they really believed this crap they should take the first step and send their social security checks back. Let them test their own faith before they start telling others how to live.

Just like all these fucking repube arm chair warriors saying how we don't love American because we don't support the war. They should set the bar for loving their country by volunteering to go to Iraq.

With Conservatives it is always going to amount to "Do as I say, not as I do.". They are hypocrites of the highest order.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
39. I agree
Mike Malloy earlier this week took a fundie and he was saying how Bush was keeping his promise of elections etc. and Malloy was asking him why he wasn't in Iraq fighting and the guy kept saying "I'm not a solider." :crazy:
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
20. So how do they know it wasn't the Lord who provided the welfare and SS
programs?? Totally irrational, these people.
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freestyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
21. Tithing was about supporting the poor as much as the priests
Sometimes I think these people are illiterate. They clearly do not read the Bible, since tithing and setting aside a portion of the harvest are about far more than simply supporting the church. They also totally miss everything Jesus had to say about how to treat the poor, the sick, the young, the old, in other words the least of these whose treatment is one major measure of how we treat Christ.

Don't these Christians get it? The answer to Cain's question "am I my brother's keeper?" is a resounding yes. If collective action at the national level is the best way to care for the least among us, then so be it. A very reasonable theological argument could be made that social programs are an expression of God's will.
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AnnInLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
22. More accurately, they believe
that all social programs should be administered by churches/religious agencies instead of by government (see post 16). They do not believe that disadvantaged people should not be helped at all....it's just that they should be helped thru religious institutions, not government. They have that idea that it is not the ROLE of government to be involved in social programs at all. (Of course, then the churches/religious organizations could pick and choose on whom to bestow their benevolence, according to who knows what guideline.)

All of this was explained to me very patiently by my brother, who is a right wing fundie. To his credit, he really believes what he is saying. And, he walks the walk. He tithes, he and wife and 2 kids volunteer physically for good community projects that involve the handicapped and elderly, he contributes $$ to religious-social agencies, he doesn't put down others who disagree with his views, he doesn't proselytize, he is a lay-preacher in the Meth Church, he went to see Farenheit 9/11 and refuses to watch Fox News due to their bias, and consistently votes repuglican. He and I are as different as night and day, but have great conversations, and respect each other's views. I would not respect him at all except I SEE him practicing what he preaches.
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No Exit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
23. "Jesus is coming... and He's really pissed" n/t
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. If you're so supernatural, Jesus, why not an encore appearance?
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. That's the Promise...nt
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Hope he likes Abu Ghraib. That's where Rummy'll put him.
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I wouldn't be in Rummy's shoes
or the Chimp's for that matter, for all the riches of this world on Judgment Day.

May I ask what your faith or not preference is?

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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. Confused. That's the state of my faith today.
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. I understand
I'm a strong leftwing Christian who is 'shocked and awed' at
the fundies...
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #23
46. Now, THAT'S a bumper sticker
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
26. "I was hungry and you gave me food"
I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you
gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was
naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I
was in prison and you came to me. Truly, I say to you, as
you did it to one of the least of these, my brethren, you
did it to me.
--Jesus of Nazareth

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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Hmmm. Hungry. Naked. Sick. Imprisoned...sounds like Abu or GITMO
At least the Pentagon caught every other word.
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colinmom71 Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
27. Then to that, we should respond that the Lord DID provide...
60 years ago, when He guided FDR's conscience to establish SS and other poverty fighting programs...

Say that and then enjoy watching them try to backtrack. Their heads may likely implode in having their religious viewpoint also justifying Democratic principles...
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Stirk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
34. Why do think it was created in the first place?
The lord wasn't providing. Fucking morons.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
35. Of course, Bush is funding the Churches with Tax money.
His plan is to outsource social programs from government to the religous community. He wants to get his "Christian" government out of the business of caring for the poor, starving, and needy. Our govt needs to be focused on killing those with different beliefs and on stealing their wealth.

The "lord" will provide tax dollars to the church, and the church will pass those dollars on to members of good standing in their church. Of course, some will be earmarked for campaign finance to support canidates who will keep this "cash flow from heaven" safe.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. On this debate
board I used to go to around the election I was aruging with a far right person and we were arguing about Kerry and Bush's money. I told how Mrs. Heinz Kerry does a lot of charity work and stuff and I asked her who Bush donated to. Her answer? Churches in Texas.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #40
50. That makes perfect sense.
The chimp is well known for buying influence wherever he can.

Mrs Heinz Kerry was involved in the civil rights movement in South Africa which opposed Apartheid. She wanted to end the oppressive white British rule in South Africa to extend civil rights and liberties to all people.

The bushtapo donates to religion, or more specifically, to the Christian Supremacists. This is the brand of pseudo-religion that strives to remove civil rights and liberties from portions of the population.

These are polar opposites.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
36. Can we atheists kinda opt out of that arrangement?
NT!

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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
38. I think they are
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 04:48 PM by FreedomAngel82
forgetting the passage in Matthew 25. The guy who wrote the book "God's Politics" was on the Daily show and brought this up. In the passage it's Jesus talking to people about helping the poor and he names various types and they reply he was never that way and then Jesus replies basically saying whoever out there is like that and you ignore them you're doing that to me as well. Obviously these fundies don't read their Bibles. Also as Kerry pointed out in the passage of James "faith without works is dead."
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The Flaming Red Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
41. Fish and Loaves showed Jesus' true Socialist agenda
Let's follow his lead and divide everything up and feed the world.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
44. With Social Security we are helping ourselves
by putting into it so we can have a retirement when we get older.

Some people don't have pensions or 401K!!

They are selling the Social Security Scam like they did the Iraqi Invasion..with Fear and Demagoguery!
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
48. Faith based...
"The Lord will keep us safe"
Why have a military & Homeland Security?

WHY look to the government when "the Lord will provide?"

Why bother with the facts, forget about Science and Medicine, have faith, "the Lord will provide."

Secular Education? Who needs it? "The Lord will provide."

Jesus loves me for I know
Cause the Bible told me so


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