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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:59 AM
Original message
Poll question: Atheists and Agnostics are the most discriminated against group in the USA
Even though non believers number over 30 million, can you ever remember an Atheist group ever endorsing a political candidate? Talk about living in the closet. Talk about being invisible.

People often say that an open atheist can never be elected President but openly talk about the possible first black president or woman president.

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. I would never admit to my atheism at work or at my child's public school.
And I live in New Jersey...
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. Ditto here /You can't if you don't want your kid to be hassled
We're not even Athiests (agnostic here)and you can't believe the stuff I have had to put up with in dealing with other parents, neighbors, etc.

The only thing they know is that we don't go to church and they view us based on that alone, as suspect.
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brooklynite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
75. Most of the people in my Department
are atheists, and it comes up in discussion somewhat regularly. Doesn't seem to cause any problems.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. I think, Mr. Ventura not withstanding, that it would be hard to elect
An atheist to a major political office. The opposition would jump all over it.
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makhno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
3. Don't forget the smokers
;)
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
25. Yep. We've passed the point of simply protecting non-smokers.
Now, there seems an almost puritanical effort to punish smokers. Which I dislike.

Full disclosure: I've never smoked.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
4. I think gay people are more discriminated against
Though I am an athiest/agnostic and I do believe we are discriminated against as well.
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Imagine a dark skinned gay atheist with an Arabic name and Indian accent
Could be our Barack Obama.
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
55. Speaking from personal experience, it's a toss-up. nt
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
5. Politically,atheists get less respect than Black Muslims or even Tailban
Why would atheist views be so loathsome that an endorsement from atheists is to be political poison to the beneficiary? What does that say about America?
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morgan2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
39. the only groups respected politically
are those that make up their minds collectively, whether pushed by a leader or based upon similar issues. Atheists will never get political clout because they are so diverse in the political spectrum.
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. Excellent point
Churches act as a point of organization for believers at least once a week.

At the bare minimum, believers listen to the "teachings" and "guidance" of a religious leader once a week. Fundamentalist religious up the ante by pushing ever greater attendance and participation, behaving much like the cults they claim to abhor.

Free thinkers just can't be pinned down to a set group of positions.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
6. Pagans.
The fundies only consider atheists to be misguided. Pagans are Eeeeevyl.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. "Misguided" or not, we're still marginalized.
Tell your co-workers you're an Atheist and watch the Chick Tracts start appearing on your windshield...


And your average Mouthbreather can't tell the diference between an Atheist and a "Pagan". We both "Worship Satan"...
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. But you guys don't have to
kiss Satan's ass every Friday night at the black mass.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #6
20. I think they just assume Athiests are pagans
One size fits all I guess!
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Rush1184 Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
7. If I had a dollar for every time I was told I am going to hell
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 09:31 AM by Rush1184
for being an Agnostic and not beliving in god, I would be able to quit University and retire now.

Not to mention every time I choose not to partake in a prayer, the people around me look at me as though I am just being difficult.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #7
40. I Tell Them I'll Go to Hell and Fix the Air Conditioning
seems like a better afterlife than listening to John Ashcroft's singing.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
11. I'm an atheist, but...
we need to quit wallowing in being victims, because we're not. Many atheists discriminate against religious people just as venomously as the discrimination pointed at us. Its ALL wrong.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I Didn't Know Jesse Was an Atheist
But somehow, I can't imagine hearing him be put on the defensive about it.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. I didn't realize it either...
but you make a good point. A person DECIDES to put themselves on the defensive, usually by striking out in the same way as they are being attacked. Seems quite silly.
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BBradley Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
44. People are the least likely to vote for an atheist out of all minorities.
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Rush1184 Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
13. Spiritual Safety Tip: (From a for kids section on a fundie website)
What should you do if you find an Atheist?


If you find an Atheist in your neighborhood,
TELL A PARENT OR PASTOR RIGHT AWAY!

You may be moved to try and witness to
these poor lost souls yourself, however
AVOID TALKING TO THEM!

Atheists are often very grumpy and bitter and will lash out at children or they may even try to trick you into neglecting God's Word.

Very advanced witnessing techniques are needed for these grouches. Let the adults handle them.


That was a spiritual safety tip from the people at:

http://objective.jesussave.us/kidz.html

If that page is no longer working (it was not loading on mine) then get it on the way back archive at:

http://web.archive.org/web/20031202223614/http://object...

They also have there proposed change for the US flag at:
http://objective.jesussave.us/godlyflag.html



http://web.archive.org/web/20031203063117/objective.jes...



Note:
Can someone slap these people for me.
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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
47. Oh, wow!
As an ex-atheist, I have to say, that is appalling!
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Rush1184 Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #47
83. I found it kinda funny...
untill I realized that it was not a parody...
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latteromden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #83
85. No no, definitely a parody. The part on the kids' site that says:
"Dinosaurs still walk on the land and swim in the seas! And the Earth is less than 10,000 years old!" seals it - I don't know if it's the use of exclamation marks, or what, but that and their "Baby Jesus" part show that it's a parody.
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
15. Not as individuals, generally
I suppose that you have a point politically, but individually I disagree. For those who do not personally know the atheist/agnostic, their lack of religious belief is not apparent like most discriminated groups. It is probably one of the easiest characteristics to hide. For those who know the atheist/agnostic personally, it is usually something that they discover after they have known the person. With the exception of some religious Fundamentalists, people will usually not hate them once they know them. They might consider it as a small character flaw or something, but they won't hate them. In some environments, atheists/agnostics are well accepted.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. Throw the kid school thing into the mix and that changes
Maybe I just live in an exceptionally nosy area but we are constantly bombarded by the evangelical types that want to ferret around into your personal business so they can "save" you.
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neebob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
16. I agree that a lot of people have negative perceptions of atheists, but
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 09:37 AM by neebob
I don't know if I would call it discrimination. Doesn't that involve denying things? What is denied atheists, besides invitations to faith-based events and participation in religious discussions?

I don't feel personally discriminated against or the least bit uncomfortable stating my views. Perhaps I'm surrounded by super-extra enlightened people. Even my famously unenlightened mother, who is also Mormon, seems fairly accepting of my lack of belief in the vengeful man-god and all his rules and nonsensical plans.

I don't even feel like I'm part of a minority, and I'm quite firm in my conviction that there is no god, no plan, no intelligent and benevolent force whatsoever. I think a lot of non-believers just have a problem with the word atheist.

So I would need someone to explain to me how atheists are actually discriminated against. I don't see not being invited to hang out or being expected to endure or observe others publicly acknowledging a deity as discrimination.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I agree with you.
My experiences pretty much match yours.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I think it's a different kind of discrimination
I don't like ideas like "more" or "less" because it is just a different kind of discrimination. Discrimination due to skin color is probably the worst because people don't have to know a person at all to discriminate in that way. But I have experienced discrimination because I'm an athiest - but not much until I had my daughter. Raising my daughter without religion is apparentlly a bigger sin than not having religion myself. I have talked to people who said the neighbor kids aren't allowed to play with their kids because of their lack of religion. It is definitely there.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. But, its usually returned in droves...
Not speaking to your own personal thoughts or actions, so please don't think I am attempting to offend.
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neebob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. I would agree that qualifies as discrimination
and I'm sure it happens a lot. That's certainly common knowledge among non-Mormons from Utah. But then you have to ask yourself (and your kids) if it's really such a problem. Unless you live in a place where everyone forbids their children to associate with the children of atheists or the other kids harass yours, it's livable.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #26
41. As a person without religion from childhood...
(can't really say I was an atheist at 7) the only time I ever felt self-conscious about it or even close to being discriminated against was when I lived in a very strongly Mormon town.

I was constantly pestered about going to church, left out of activities, and made to feel not part of the community at all. My teachers lectured us about the evils of Pepsi cola, which was actually scary. There was also a lot of undeniable racism around.

But that was because one religion really dominated the social structure. Ever since, living in places that were very diverse religiously, I can't say I've experienced discrimination at all.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
32. BINGO!
I never had anyone interested in my religious views until we had a child--now they're crawling out of the woodwork and we're not Athiests, we're Agnostic, so I cannot even begin to imagine what you're dealing with!

I guess as a person that just wants to mind my own business I don't understand why others want to be in mine!


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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. Depends on where you work, where you live and how vocal you are
About your beliefs...if you live in the bible belt and you boldly espouse what you think of religion, don't be looking to get any job promotions!
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. Funny, I live in the Bible Belt, and I boldly espouse my Atheism...
and I get promotions. Doesn't seem to be a problem for me. Maybe its because I respect their religious beliefs and expect it in return.

Nyaaah..I'm sure I'm just lucky. :eyes:
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Must be your charming personality
NT
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Yeah, guess that's it. n/t
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Nobody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. Atheists can't run for office in some states
Specifically in those states' constitutions. They're not all southern states by the way.

However, it is very easy for an atheist to pretend to worship something.

I'd be happy to see a nation where you don't have to be one thing or the other, just be yourself nad let others do the same.

I hate the I'm More Discriminated Against Than You game. it was used to convince women to wait their turn in the mid-1800s, but their turn never came, women had to seize the spotlight for themselves before winning the right to vote.

There are a lot of groups marginalized, stereotyped, discriminated against, looked down upon, patronized, denied the means of making a living, and so many other things.

Let's not make more divisions, Duh-bya is doing a fine job of that already.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:09 AM
Original message
Can you please cite such a state constitution. Article VI of the U.S.
Constitution says the following:

"..but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
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Nobody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
45. Be glad to. Here's a link and it's all in one place for easy reference.
This link leads you to the Minnesota Atheist's web site that compiles all seven of the states and the applicable parts of their constitution.

Do note that Minnesota Atheists also shows the quote from the US Constitution and that these parts of the seven state contitutions are in violation of it. I wish it were cut and dried.

Here's the link:

http://www.mnatheists.org/stateconst.html

Here are two to get you started.

----

North Carolina: State Constitution

Article 6, Section 7. Oath.

Before entering upon the duties of an office, a person elected or appointed to the office shall take and subscribe the following oath:

I, ..........................., do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and maintain the Constitution and laws of the United States, and the Constitution and laws of North Carolina not inconsistent therewith, and that I will faithfully discharge the duties of my office as ............................................., so help me God.

Article 6, Section 8. Disqualifications for office.

The following persons shall be disqualified for office:

First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God.

----

Pennsylvania: State Constitution

Article 1, Section 4.

No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth.

----

Me again: So in PA you not only have to believe in a god, but you have to believe in an afterlife as well.



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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #45
74. Very interesting. Thanks for the links. n/t
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rzemanfl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #45
77. Have to disagree with you on Pennslyvania. Doesn't read that
way to me, although I am not about to move there and run for office to set up the test case.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #45
81. Those laws are void.
There is ample federal case law on these matters. Those parts of state constitutions are no longer enforceable. Keep in mind that laws struck down in court can remain on the books. Some southern state -- I forget which one -- maintained a state law against miscegenation until fairly recently, even though the Supreme Court had struck down such laws decades earlier.
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Nobody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. Thanks. Glad to see that
I was hoping something of the sort was true. Am curious to know what would happen if you tried to get it officially rescinded. I'd hope that there would be little fanfare and out it goes.

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Stop_the_War Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
21. I think us gays and lesbians are the most discriminated against group
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 09:44 AM by Stop_the_War
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Atheists Aren't Prohibited From Marrying Because They Are Atheist...
why isn't the CHURCH upset that ATHEISTS can marry? It's a HOLY INSTITUTION, isn't it??? Yet they are still permitted to marry? What gives?

There are no constitutional amendment proposals and no state-constitution amentments that single out atheists as being less deserving of equal protections and benefits under the law.

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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #28
37. It's almost offensive to compare the two.
It smacks of being horribly out of touch with just how bad the GLBT rights situation truly is. They are trying to pass LAWS. As I said below, Im sure it sucks being an atheist and there's no denying there is discrimination, but there aren't laws being pushed through to deny them their basic rights.
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. I disagree
It may be a question of semantics, but I think it is very important to compare the discrimination against the GLBT community and the discrimination against the atheistic community. I don't think they're equally discriminated against - I agree that the GLBT situation is far more pressing - but I think it is worthy to try to understand why one is perceived as a far greater threat to the religious right than the other.
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #37
57. As a gay atheist, i say they are two sides of the same coin;
the discrimination against atheists isn't quite as obvious and organized, only because the *presence* af atheists is not as obvious and organized. Also the first ammendment forces a lot of people to at least give lip service to accepting the rights of atheists, but the attitude of the believing public toward atheists is *very very* negative - ceratinly on par with the attitude toward gays.
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inslee08 Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #37
59. A much bigger minority
Estimates vary, but atheism/agnosticism (?) probably numbers around 30-35% depending on your definition.

Gays and lesbians number around 5% or so of the population.

It's much easier to oppress a smaller number of people.
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neebob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #21
31. I agree. nt
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #21
36. I agree
I'm straight and an athiest, and I have a family member who is gay and is far far far more discriminated against than I am. Legally, socially, really in every way possible. My neighbors make comments about me being an athiest, but they still talk to me and are friendly. Gay and lesbian couples are often completely ignored (or worse - potentially *much* worse) when they move into a neighborhood or community.
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greendog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #21
72. I agree...
...I heard gay bashing all my life...I don't think I've ever heard anything comparable for atheists.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
29. Sorry, I have to disagree. I think the gay community has it far far worse
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 09:54 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
Atheists have the right to marry, the right to share property with their partner and share in medical decisions. Nobody has ever, to my knowledge, murdered an atheist and lashed them to a fence. People don't protest "God Hates Atheists". Bush at least feigns tolerance for atheists but he outright encourages hatred against gays.

I know that it is a nightmare for atheists to live in a U.S. that is constantly getting more and more like a theocracy. It is scary to even other believers. I know it's not fair to atheists at all and atheists are definitely discriminated against. However, it's not even close to what the gay community has to go through. Not only do they have to deal with the hatred from just regular members of society they have the hatred of the religious masses on TOP of that. Someone said they were told they were going to hell...well, gays are constantly told that too. I think it's almost an insult to even suggest that atheists have it nearly as bad as gays and lesbians. It shows how little even "progressives" know about how bad things truly are for our brothers and sisters in the gay communityh.
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LibInternationalist Donating Member (861 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
34. I would agree whole heartedly with this
but it is very easy to pass as a believer

I'm glad that I'm in a minority only in beliefs, rather than appearance or fundamental life-style
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
38. Atheism is persecuted in the US.
Religion is so much part of your political life; even here it's part of the scenery, part of the debate. The papers yesterday were filled with news that Labour had accidentally slurred the leader of the opposition's religion. Open atheism wouldn't win any votes here; open homosexuality would probably be more popular. And I would say it's the same in the US - a population would more readily elect an open homosexual than an open atheist.

There's nothing wrong with homosexuality, and there's nothing wrong with atheism, but the prejudic against atheism penetrates deeper into politics.
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mark414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
43. no fucking way
and i am extremely disappointed that this question is even being asked
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
46. the more important question is why?
why is it that they pretend to respect people who believe a different fairy tale (god/gods) but they go ape shit if you say "I just believe in one less god than you do."

My theory is its for the same reason they hate gays, they are "afraid" they are gay too.
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
49. I feel more discriminated against as a gay person than as an atheist...
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 01:52 PM by Misunderestimator
and I am openly both. Politically, I would agree with you to a certain extent, though there are only certain very progressive communities that would elect an openly gay politician, other communities might otherwise elect a closeted one.

(On edit... so it would seem that atheists and homosexuals share the need to stay in the closet in certain circumstances in the political world, which I do not agree should be done... but all else does not compare.)
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varun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. I agree
I am gay and agnostic. I feel more discriminated against as a gay person.
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inslee08 Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #49
61. I think it's (unfairly) assumed that
if you are gay, then you are atheist (or agnostic). But you're right, I would imagine that some people would have a harder time with homosexuality than with atheism in this context.
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. That's funny, because most gay people I know are Christian.
:shrug:
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. Yes, I Have Many Queer Friends Who Are Christian (In Some Form)...
... all things considered, it's the damnedest thing. I think it's kind of a strange combination for anyone to embrace something that delights in the wholesale rejection and 'dehumanization' of us. But like many conservative Christians do, my gay Christian friends tend to cherry-pick scripture that's supportive and they choose to ignore the rest. Also, they belong to more progressive churches.

HOWEVER... that's not NEARLY as odd as being a Queer REPUBLICAN! (As a former gay republican myself, I know first-hand how annoying they can be.)

-- Allen
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Oh YO, man... YOU were a ....
gay republican...??? :wtf: so glad you came over to the light!

And you put it well... the reason I understand my gay friends' Christianity (and by the way, they are all democrats), is the same reason I understand anyone's. It's the picking and choosing.

(Of course, I still call myself an American, even though I REALLY have to pick and choose what's good about this country anymore.)
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #65
86. Keep in mind, there once was a moderate to libertarian wing of the GOP
Only in the last decade have the theocrats and neocons become so strong in the GOP that any political moderates who remain have to be viewed as Quixotes. My own political views run to the fiscally conservative and the socially liberal. Today, that means I am adamantly opposed to the GOP. GOP delenda est! In the past, that was not so obvious a consequence of my political views.
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
51. in some ways, definitely. in others, no.
i think athiests and gays are, in some ways, treated fairly similarly. both are groups which are not necessarily immediately recognizable. both can stay "in the closet" to varying extents.both are considered to be anti-christian evangelizers who actively seek to "corrupt" the children and family members of the ones who fear us.

in some ways, atheists are considered worse in that at least some christian churches welcome gay members, and there are some whose doctrine doesn't deny the entrance of gays into their ultimate reward. and politically, most people don't associate homosexuality with communism or with a desire to overthrow their country (though some do.) many people associate atheism with communism, and a desire to overthrow everything they hold sacred. however, i think overall gays suffer greater discrimination, not because of what they are but because of what they do. "being" gay isn't the idiots's big concern, it's practicing gay sex. whereas, atheists don't really "practice" atheism, except when they're trying to corrupt college kids or donating to the ACLU. it's more of a visceral hate toward gays.

other than that, it's tough to equate it with racism. atheism isn't immediately recognizable, obviously. it isn't genetic. it isn't limited to certain parts of the country. it's malleable--atheists can become religious, and the religious can lapse into atheism. and while there have probably been fewer acknowledged atheists elected to high public office than (for instance) black men and women, i suppose there are a few mitigating factors to explain that. one is that in no place in this nation is there an atheist voting bloc. another is that there has never been a public PR campaign, or mass demonstration, to raise awareness of anti-atheist sentiments. the social movements this nation have never felt the need to fully include the right of americans not to believe in a god.
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Tacos al Carbon Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
52. I've been an atheist all of my life
I have lived all over this country, including the south, the midwest and both coasts and I have never felt particularly discriminated against either on a personal or professional level. In fact, when I lived in he south and did have religious discussions with devout Christians, those who tried to convert me seemed to act out of sincere affection, concern and kindness for me and I appreciated their heartfelt concern for me, given their beliefs. If I were in their shoes, I would do no less for someone that I considered a friend.

Sure, I'd have some difficulty running for the highest offices but other than that, it's never been much of an issue. I think that plenty of groups have it far, far worse. Homosexuals and racial minorities (including asians who, as a group, suffer widespread and often overlooked discrimination) come immediately to mind.
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HEIL PRESIDENT GOD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
53. No
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 02:50 PM by HEIL PRESIDENT GOD
First of all, I have never felt the need to proclaim my atheism except when someone wants to turn me on to God. Lately I've been questioning my atheism. It's an intellectual stance held without emotional investment.

That being said, I've never experienced "discrimination" for not believing in God. I am much more marked, much more targeted, for having a beard, and I don't find avoiding those problems to be worth the trouble of shaving. Power is not all about having candidates! Has anyone ever been pulled over for being an atheist (even for having an atheist bumper sticker)?

When you go for a home loan does the loan officer ask you about your belief in God? Not any bank I've been to. But you can bet she notices your race.

All this being said, I think that by your own standards Satanists are more "discriminated against" than atheists.

Just my two cents. Not trying to start any fights.

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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
54. Remember when Lieberman said 'All morality comes from religion.'
Hmm, i guess that means i don't have any morality. I seem to recall that when he was criticized for this statement he replied with something along the lines of 'Well, it doesn't really matter, atheists are such a small group of people.'
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #54
70. Most Democrats don't believe Lieberman's RW BS
Typical RW talking point. Any reasonable mind understands that all morals do NOT come from religion. For fucks sake, anyone with even a HS level edu understands that. Anyone who makes that statement is either LYING or ignorant.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
56. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Maybe that's cuz atheists don't feel free to speak in other places. nt
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. oh brother....if I argue with you, it will only "prove" your point right??
:eyes:
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. That's because atheists anywhere else don't talk about it much... eh?
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 04:23 PM by Misunderestimator
I sure hear a lot of whining from the non-atheists. All's fair I suppose.
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SheepyMcSheepster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. thanks for the broad brush. eom.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #56
66. Must Be Because Of All That Faith-Based Bigotry And Violence...
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 04:32 PM by arwalden
... towards anyone who's not Christian-enough.

I hope that helps you to understand, Kwassa.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
68. Any recent cases of athiests being violently terrorized?
I have yet to hear of a case where an athiest was hung from a tree as we saw in the lynchings of blacks that went on until the early 1960s or a case where an athiest was beaten to death as has happened to many gays.

I do not think atheists are the most oppressed group by any stretch. Yes, there are insidious and institutionalized forms of discrimination against athiests but they have never been under attack by massive hate crime groups or terrorized in general as women, gays, and blacks have.

BTW, those old laws that are still on the books requiring athiests to believe in God are not enforced. There are plenty of odd laws still on the books that aren't enforced, such as the NY law that makes it illegal to slurp your soup in public. In NC courts, you do NOT have to swear on a Bible. You simply raise your right hand.
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. Atheists are often called Commies
and Commies are called atheistic.
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Where? is anyone called a communist anymore?
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
69. Is the wage gap...
between atheists and theists as large as it is between men and women?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
71. 20 years as a Navy officer and an atheist
I have never kept it secret and it never impacted my career or my life. I am active in local government and my children's school and have never had a problem. True, I may never be elected president, but in no sense do I feel I am a victim or invisible.
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mark414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
78. i am so disappointed in this thread
45% agree with this???

i'm what would be classified as an agnostic and damnnn this is a bunch of bullshit
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. The only way atheists are discriminated against is that many would not
vote for one. However, the same thing is true about candidates who hold certain political views. Since I am opposed to the death penalty, I would lock myself out of about 40% of the electorate that will not vote for an anti-death penalty candidate. There is no structural discrimination unless you actually think that there is a lot of religion in government even though there isn't. "In God We Trust" on our money, or "One nation, under God" are hardly big deals.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
79. They face discrimination
in that they would find it difficult getting elected to public office...

But otherwise they are legally permitted to marry, sponsor parners from other countries, get full partnership benefits, and can serve in the military openly stating that they don't believe in a higher power.

Gays and lesbians are opnly discriminated against in more ways, and laws are bein passed to be able to dicriinate against them more.



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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 03:41 AM
Response to Original message
84. I think it's safe to say...
that muslims are the most discriminated against group in the US.

I'm saying that as an atheist.
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