Dobson - "Beat Your Kids, In the Name of the Lord"

[NAO]

Dr. James Dobson has a HUGE army of rabid fundamentalist Christian followers. His "Focus on the Family" is a massive, organized, mature, deeply entrenched activism group.

I am now 39 years old, and I remember as a kid hearing constantly about "Dr. Dobson" - he was a celebrity in the fundamentalist Christian community way back then (in the late 70's and early 80's).

He was famous back then for his book "Dare to Discipline", which endorsed beating the crap out of kids, in the name of the Lord.

The Bible verse that was always quoted was Proverbs 23:13-14, which I quote verbatim: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."

At Dobson's urging, millions of fundamentalist Christian parents took that passage literally, and felt they were doing "the Lord's will, as He commanded in His Word" when they beat their children.

So you see why I have hated Dobson ever since childhood.

[mopaul]

1. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Another fine passage from the good book. There are also passages in the old testament that condone killing one's owm mother and father and sister and brother for not being pious enough.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clark2008]

12. Please...

the red states are NOT horrible. And all the people in them are NOT horrible.

This attitude does nothing but divide us further.

Develop a red-state strategy instead of complaining about them.

[billbuckhead]

17. Red states are the old pretty much the Confederacy

Maybe it's time the Blue states secede and join the more freedom and humanity loving EU. Triangulation and appeasement have got us nothing but hardship and fascism from these anti enlightenment "Red" states.

[tx_dem41]

39. Well...that's a viable option.

I mean, it worked so well for the people that tried it last time.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tx_dem41]

38. Geez, you sure don't like a challenge do you?

Guess you aren't willing to lead. Whining is a lot easier.

The Progressive movement needs fighters. Try to look at it that way.

[burythehatchet]

45. I'll continue to whine while you lead

let me know how it turns out.

[tx_dem41]

46. Deal. n/t

[Melynn]

66. I agree you

I live in a red state and not everyone living here is a raging Nazi.

On the other hand, I don't think there is anything wrong with pointing out what a loon James Dobson is.

[BiggJawn]

26. Don't blame that sumbitch on ME!

Plenty of "Idiots" in "Blue Collie-For-Nya", too

[burythehatchet]

27. no problem BiggJawn

I'm in a red state also.

[Wiley50]

58. Shrub, spank your child

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. LOL!!!

[The Zanti Regent]

3. What Dickhead Dobson really believes.

Well, he's into that Old Testament shit, such as...

Abortion is a no-no, but here's when it's OK to kill your child in the name of Gawd:

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_...

You can bet Jimmy follows Gawd's word when it commands him to kill his family!

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_...

Don't forget that Jimmy wants to repeal the 13th Amendment and reintroduce Slavery as outlined by his pal Gary North!

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/slavery/ex21_0...

And here's Doofus Dobson's view on Tolerance, sorta puts him at odds with Simon Wiesethal...

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/religious_tole...

Of course, Jimmy D Bigot has a special something prepared for people of other colors...

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/racial%20toler...

Since Christianity has long been associated with lynching, Dogbeater Dobson reminds you of some basic rules when it comes to STRANGE FRUIT

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/how_long_to_ha...

And I'm sure that Jimmy's Aryan Pals in the Nazi Party will reinstate these laws too!

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/miscellaneous_...

[Jacobin]

4. As the father of four boys, I can tell you

Beating children is not only completely and utterly unnecessary for discipline, it just doesn't work.

[zbdent]

6. And, at some point,

they probably start to be able to beat you . . .

[Cascadian]

5. I believe Dobson also adovcated beating kids who cry too.

This is what I had heard anyway. I think he said that kids should be hit again after they cry from the initial beating. Not sure if it's true or not (somebody please confirm!). Either way, I am firmly opposed to corporal punishment for children. I was beaten as a youngster and I do not think it helped me at all. Dobson comes from the "might is right" crowd. He is a lunatic anyway.



John

[Poppyseedman]

22. No, Dobson doesn't advocate beating your child

after the initial beating because they are crying.

There are other teaching organization that actually do teach that.

They teach that you must "break" the child's rebellious spirit. If an additional session is required to break the child, when you are sure the child is broken of his rebellion, should you administer "Love" and affection.

Which is very sad.

[Ilsa]

7. This evil idiotshould be investigated for encouraging child abuse.

I hope some stupid parent who gets into trouble for following Dobson's advice sues him. There is no excuse for beating a child when you should be teaching him.

[SmokingJacket]

8. People like Dobson believe in obeying authority, no matter what

The presumed goal in beating your children is to teach them to submit to you, just as you want a dog to submit to you. "Obey authority!" is their mantra. Is it a good authority? Does this authority deserve your child's respect? Doesn't matter!! It's AUTHORITY.

Hello, Mr. Dobson, is this really what you want for your children? To be shivering, quaking, servile people, who'll do whatever anyone who sets themselves up as an authority wants them to do? I guess so.

My favorite baby gift of all the ones we got when my first son was born was a tiny onesie that said "Question Authority." And he does. It makes parenting a little more of a challenge -- he has to believe there's a good reason to do his homework before he'll do it, for example -- but at least I know he won't grow up to be some goose-stepping Nazi, or someone's fawning yes-man.

[Poppyseedman]

13. I do find your post rather humorous

It's pretty obvious you don't understand Dodson or what he teaches in his books.

Dodson's premise is a biblical one. He doesn't teach people to beat their children to submit like a dog and "obey authority" no matter what.

His biblical premise is one that humans are "sinful" and therefore given to rebellious behavior. As most children are to varying degrees rebellious until they are taught by their parents how to behave according to societies norms. Think "Lord of the Flies".

Corporal punishment one of the ways to get the "sinful" rebellion in children under control as a last resort.

I'm not endorsing Dodson's or his methods, though he does address this issue because millions of parents across this country tried the "new thinking" of raising children and found it pretty much to be a disaster.

Believe me, for some children a "time out" is just a couple of quiet minutes to think of ways to get more attention. I know I had one.

[gollygee]

16. Thinking children are inherently sinful is a sad way to look at the world

I'm glad I don't have that point of view. And I bet my daughter is glad too.

[China_cat]

24. Oh????

He doesn't teach people to beat their children to submit like a dog and "obey authority" no matter what.

He advocates beating the dog when it doesn't 'obey'. Uses that as an example of why you need to beat the kids...look at how well the dog listens after I took the belt to it. (And admits that the dog is only 12 pounds)

[Poppyseedman]

29. Did you actually read his books or just

reading the talking points?

I'm not trying to defend the guy, but the amount of disinformation on this thread is amazing.

If people disagree with methods, at least know what they are and why he advocates them.

[China_cat]

42. What I said came

directly from one of his books...The Strong Willed Child

"At eleven o'clock that night, I told Siggie to go get into his bed, which is a permanent enclosure in the family room. For six years I had given him that order at the end of each day, and for six years Siggie had obeyed.

"On this occasion, however, he refused to budge. You see, he was in the bathroom, seated comfortably on the furry lid of the toilet seat. That is his favorite spot in the house, because it allows him to bask in the warmth of a nearby electric heater..."

"When I told Sigmund to leave his warm seat and go to bed, he flattened his ears and slowly turned his head toward me. He deliberately braced himself by placing one paw on the edge of the furry lid, then hunched his shoulders, raised his lips to reveal the molars on both sides, and uttered his most threatening growl. That was Siggie's way of saying. "Get lost!"

"I had seen this defiant mood before, and knew there was only one way to deal with it. The ONLY way to make Siggie obey is to threaten him with destruction. Nothing else works. I turned and went to my closet and got a small belt to help me "reason" with Mr. Freud."

What developed next is impossible to describe. That tiny dog and I had the most vicious fight ever staged between man and beast. I fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt. I am embarrassed by the memory of the entire scene. Inch by inch I moved him toward the family room and his bed. As a final desperate maneuver, Siggie backed into the corner for one last snarling stand. I eventually got him to bed, only because I outweighed him 200 to 12!"

He goes on to say that the dog never 'disobeyed' him again and talks about how much more important it is that children be 'taught to obey'.

[SmokingJacket]

43. Sorry, no: I didn't read his books.

I have no interest in spending my time reading a person who advocates thrashing children to drive out their sinful ways. And I'm an atheist, anyway. Please. Life is too short.

Yes, of course I was responding to the talking points. This is MESSAGE BOARD, a place for quick comments -- I'm not planning on putting together a doctoral thesis on Dobson, or even a letter to the editor.

I was making my own interpretation of people who advocate harsh discipline of children. Looks mighty like the way you train a dog, to me. It's all about showing them who's boss.

The idea of children being inherently sinful makes it much worse, actually. Because that is sheer nonsense.

Actually... it's evil nonsense. Children might be inherently selfish and have to be taught to think about others. But saying they're sinful is really, really wrong.

[LeftyMom]

57. I read one of his discipline books

the title was similar to a book I was looking for, I grabbed the wrong thing and read it anyhow, out of curiosity. He reccommends hitting one's child with an object rather than the hand. Whatever one thinks of his methods, this is illegal in my state and many others.

[Nobody]

14. Blindly obeying leaves you wide open for

scams and people who try to pass themselves off as authority figures in order to gain access to your home or car for nefarious purposes.

How many times has it been reported that someone got jumped at night from what they thought was a traffic stop by a legitimate authority?

How about people claiming to be meter readers getting inside and committing violent crimes?

Not that unusual, and it is easy to get uniforms from costume shops. By the time you figure out that the badge is made of plastic and the uniform doesn't look quite right, it's too late.

But no. Let's teach our kids to be cowed by anything resembling authority.

[gollygee]

19. I agree with you

My goal it to teach my daughter the internal mechanisms for controlling behavior - an internal sense of right and wrong. I don't want her to learn to do whatever she's told simply because she's told to do it. Leraning to obey is not anywhere on my list of goals.

[MountainLaurel]

53. Related issue

I read once a book based on interviews with convicted child molesters. More than one specifically sought out children from authoritarian homes -- they'd watch their neighbors' interactions with their children. These kids were the perfect victims, because they had been taught since birth that they were inferior beings who were always supposed to do whatever an adult told them. And, they'd never tell because they were sure their parents would blame them.

That why priests got away with molestations for so long -- in Catholic families, the priest was a figure one step down from god, and those kids were convinced that their parents would believe the priest before them.

[Poppyseedman]

9. Do thou have any children?

I have six children and did on occasion have to disciple them on their soft meaty little bottoms to get them to stop behavior that otherwise might endanger them. When all other methods failed.

I had one son in particular that was a wild child. If I didn't give him strong discipline, I'm sure he would be dead today from doing something foolish. He was very impulsive I had to give my shotguns to my brother for safe keeping because he was so inquisitive. I was afraid he would find a way to unlock the gun safe and show his friends "daddies toys"

By disciple, I don't mean beating them. Just enough effect to get their undivided attention so they "understand" daddy is the one in charge and they should listen.

Dodson for what's it's worth doesn't endorse "beating the crap out of kids" he endorses discipling them with physical punishment as a last resort. Unless you believe that any form of corporal punishment is wrong and is a "beating". Is a swat on the bottom with a wooden spoon "beating the crap out them"?

As for why you hate Dodson since childhood, every hear of "projecting" ?

Do you have any children?

[Cascadian]

10. Dobson....not Dodson.

eom



John

[Poppyseedman]

15. Oops,

Spell check made me do it.

[oneighty]

30. Oh!

I thought it was a swat on the meaty bottom.

No no, it was Spell Check's fault. Honest.

Sigh.

Just kidding.

180

[phylny]

11. I have three children, I'm a Christian, and

I've NEVER had to hit them, smack them, intimidate them into behaving the way we wanted them to behave. Our middle child was a handful. We ended up going to the Samaritan Counseling Center at church, and worked with her pre-school teachers, the administraters, and others to help her get her temper under control.

Guess what we ended up with?

Three teenagers who are fun, smart, playful, and who don't believe you should have to hit people to help them grow. Discipline means teaching and maintaining rules, rewarding good behavior, correcting undesirable behavior.

I work in special ed, where of course you can't use physical force, and we manage to help scores of kids with behavior problems improve using behavior modification methods, behavior plans, and reinforcement schedules. I also managed to train a dog without once hitting her.

Dobson also beat the crap out of his dog. BIG man.

I'm just posting to show that physical force doesn't have to be used at all, even as a "last" resort.

[William Bloode]

25. Welll.....

I have 4 children. Some of whom i have had to give a tap or two, most no. I don't believe in whippings as a 1st line, i think of it as a last resort. You have to have something to back up your other methods. I mean what else do you do when, you say for instance, "your grounded, no T.V., no phone, etc" and your child tells you to get bent he will do as he pleases? Am i supposed to call the cops on him? Dss? those would really traumatize a child more than a bit of a whipping.

To be honest i have not whipped one of my kids in a long, long time. I generally don't have to, heck i don't want to. But i want them to know i will if i have to.

Or how about the children and teens these days who will try to hit their parents? Theres allot of them these days. Mine know better, cause i will hit back.

[Occulus]

44. What about parents who deserve to get smacked BY their kids?

And yes, sometimes the parents really are that toxic.

[William Bloode]

48. Heheheh......

You might have a point there. I sure know some parents that could use a good smacking up.

[phylny]

49. What else do you do?

You learn about behavior modification and reinforcers. Children that would hit their parents first...hope they didn't learn it from Mom and Dad. If they only way you can get a child to obey is by using physical force, then there are many, many other familial and personal problems in the family.

Glad to know, though, that your kids won't hit you because they know you'll hit back. Fortunately, we never needed to use that kind of intimidation with our children. They're not afraid of us, they trust us.

[ultraist]

55. I agree phylny!

There is no need to use violence against a child. It's cruel and inhumane. It's interesting that acts of violence have been given code names if they pertain to inflicting violence against a child: spanking, disciplining, punishing, whooping, paddling

It's violence against a child, regardless of the semantics. It's uncivil and only someone who lacks parenting skills employs violent means to *teach* their children. Ironically, it teaches children some very undesirable things.

It's also interesting to note the connection between child abuse and highly religious parents. Training someone to be obedient through fear is what the church does: obey God or you will go to hell.

[LeftyMom]

61. Wooden spoon

Ever get hit on the ass with a wooden spoon? I have, and it's fucking abusive. Not to mention illegal. If you did the same to your spouse, teh cops would haul your ass away, so why's it okay to do it to a kid?

[ultraist]

65. LMAO! My mom did the same thing to us several times

What is it with the wooden spoons? She now claims she did it once and realizes that any form of corporal punishment is abuse.

I suppose the views were not as educated in the 70's as they are now. I'll give her that much.

[jmm]

18. Isn't this the guy that thinks Sponge Bob is gay?

I don't think anybody should take advice from him especially on a matter as serious as parenting.

[BiggJawn]

28. The same one.

What gets me is Dobson has a little minute long feature that airs on my local station where he's all homey and nostalgic for when he WAS focussing on his own damn family instead of ours.
Innocent little talk, nothing controversial...

Plant that little seed of Trust, so when he orders you to kill your neighbour who doesn't go to church, you will do it without question...

[Poppyseedman]

31. Dobson

is one powerful dude if he can order you to kill you neighbor for not attending church and do it without question.

Do you really think church attending people are that easily influenced?

Even fundies?

[gollygee]

32. Obedience can be a dangerous thing

One of the things Nazi Germany has been blamed on is the strongly punitive style of discipline parents in Germany at that time used, and how they stressed obedience as the most important thing a parent could teach a child. How do you get so many people to go along with something so awful? Obedience.

from: http://www.lifeseminars.com/askalison/0401.asp

Children grow up much faster than we would like, and we can’t make their decisions for them and protect them for ever. When the teen years arrive, our kids only have a few years to prepare for independent adulthood, and nature drives them to become increasingly independent. But if they’ve been taught to obey, they don’t know how to think through their decisions beyond “What do mum and dad say?” Their ideas of right and wrong are based on what they have been told rather than on deeper concepts like “Does it harm anyone?” So they move out into the wider world without any idea of how to make their own decisions. And they look for someone new to obey. Enter the peer group, or the charismatic adult leader, or the persuasive boyfriend. They transfer their obedience to someone new, who may or may not share their parents’ values. They haven’t learned how to evaluate someone’s values, or to make their own decisions, other than the decision to obey or not obey. They become followers. German psychiatrist Alice Miller (no relation) has studied the way in which the obedience-oriented child-rearing in the Germany of the 1930s led to the Nazi regime. People who were used to obeying their parents obeyed their leaders even when their leaders ordered them to commit unspeakable crimes.

[BiggJawn]

37. In a word?

Yes.

And if that's "Christian bashing" to believe so, make the most of it.

[Poppyseedman]

41. It doesn't bother me at all

if you are a proponent of "group think"

[Blecht]

50. For somebody who claims not to be defending Dobson ...

... you sure spend a lot of time trying to defend Dobson.

[Poppyseedman]

63. My motivation is not to defend Dobson

though I guess it cames across like I do.

My motivation is simply I believe parents have to right to "lovingly discipline" their children. Yes, even if it means taking a wooden spoon to their backsides when ALL else fails for their protection to stop dangerous or mean behavior.

There are many on this board who would call me a child abuser for even swatting a two year old on the butt because they didn't listen to me as their parent. When parental rights are stripped away, we are on a path that is dangerous.

Dobson is the boogie man for child abuse advocates who for the most part couldn't parent their way out of a paper bag. Most of their "theories" on raising children are tried and solidly rejected as methods that don't work.

A real and honest decision on what constitutes child abuse vs child discipline is almost impossible when rhetoric and hyperbole are the norm rather than rare comment.

As this thread proves

[FizzFuzz]

33. bingo!!

so glad I
1) Don't watch TV, for the most part.
2) Don't have kids. Plus I can feel good about not contributing to environmental destruction and resource depletion.

[theHandpuppet]

20. Ah yes, Dobson and his "Focus on the Family" group

A favorite pulpit for Mel Gibson. And before anyone jumps in to defend Mr Gibson and his misogynic, homophobic, fundamentalist views, just do a Google search for "Mel Gibson" and "Focus on the Family" before you defend any of these bible-thumping assholes.

[NicRic]

23. Watchout another repug trap !

The repugs seem to be bring up these discussions about things like religon ,marriage etc. These issuses that will surely devide us along party lines .What they would do is turn this into a now the liberals want to tell you how to disapline your kids ,or how not to . Just like the gay marriage issuse ,you had to either had be for it or against it. They will make it to look like us dems dont believe in raising our kids properly ,let them do what ever they want etc. Just like Hillaries book on it takes a village to raise a family .They took a very positive idea on how the comunity need to be invovled in what our kids are doing and turned it around to make it sound like she was saying forget the family doing its job ,now its the goverments job instead,. When what Hillary was saying is we should help families in the job of giving every kid in our country the same oppertunity !

[thecorster]

35. Christianity isn't bad.

Religion isn't bad either. It's how people use it that sucks. This guy is obviously making good money by spreading his asinine messages around. Sure, he uses the "Good Book" as the source of his message, but he's taking it way out of context. Let me remind you, the Old Testament was written in days when crucifixion was an appropriate way to kill enemies of the state.

The thing I can't stand about fundamentalist Christians is their inability to understand that Jesus came to OVERTURN the teachings of the Old Testament. Jesus says, "I am the way," meaning, "forget all that shit about beating your kids and killing your heathen siblings, live a peaceful life, believe in me, and we're cool." The New Testament is the thing that separates Christianity from Judaism and other religions. It doesn't make it better, more correct, etc, but it is the foundation of the religion.

I wish the Red-Staters would look more at Jesus' teachings and less at political pundits' misrepresentations of said teachings.

[ernstbass]

34. Put down that belt and pick up a taser sayeth the Lord!

[McKenzie]

36. what a sick bastard

words fail me...what a complete arsehole. That'll really help children to develop into balanced adults.

That sucks...massively.

[Shopaholic]

40. Go read Keith Olbermann's last two blogs on Dobson and his cult

members. He gives us a great insight into how dumb the majority of these people really are:

www.bloggermann.com

[Stirk]

47. You know, I'll bet the Lord would much prefer it if I beat Dobson up.

Instead of children.

[Taverner]

60. Amen brother

Hey, I'll help

[KnowerOfLogic]

51. The easy, willing resort to violence is a common denominator among conserv

atives. Remember that brain study a while ago that showed that self-described liberals respond much more strongly to violent images than conservatives do? Conservatives have fully embraced the idea that violence falls into the 'that's just the way it is' category, and to resist this 'reality' is just like trying to resist the laws of physics. We might as well accept this 'reality' and make sure that the other person is on the recieving end of the stick.

[ailsagirl]

52. Some authors suggest beating children at birth

but Dobson is more "liberal" on that issue. He writes, "There is no excuse for spanking babies younger than fifteen or eighteen months of age."

Thank God for small favors!!

Yes, what sick bastards these writers are and the people who buy their tenets are even sicker.

[MountainLaurel]

54. I always hope

That someday when their kids get to be teenagers and their parents piss them off, these kids beat the shit out of them, because that's what they were taught to do when someone does something you don't like.

[ultraist]

56. It happens, sometimes they don't just beat them, they kill them

Violence begets violence

[d_b]

59. Reminds me of those parents from..

..'The People Under The Stairs'.

[Disturbed]

62. "Spare the rod , spoil the child."

I still remember that saying. Corporal punishment is no longer allowed in public schools. Is it allowed in private schools?

Going by things in the bible is just plain stupid. We don't stone women for adultry anymore, do we?

[LeftyMom]

64. The scary thing is that corporal punishment IS still allowed

in some states. Worse yet, in some places (I read about a school in Alabama but others might have the same rule) a parent can't have thier desire to opt thier child out of it honored.

http://www.stophitting.com/disatschool/facts.php

[ailsagirl]

67. If the theocrats had their druthers, we would...

[Stop_the_War]

68. This man is supporting child abuse, what an ASSHOLE n/t

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

69. POD PEOPLE

I distinctly remember my mother (devoutly Xtian) trying to get me to listen to a series of Dobson audiotapes. When I refused, she became insensed and stomped off like she had failed in a mission. It was very creepy and reminiscent of a scene from "Invasion of the Body Snatchers."

JB

[NAO]

70. Dobson's Actual Views and Why It is Important to Discredit and Vilify Him

Well, there have been quite a few posts defending (?) Dobson, or trying to clarify his message.

Even as a child, I realized the REAL message of Dobson, which was that children needed to be disciplined, and this sometimes involved physical correction. OK, even with that concession, there are two major reasons I believe Dobson should be abhorred and discredited.

First, Dobson's teachings were/are distorted in several ways that resulted in unnecessary abuse of children. Many parents used his teachings as a justification for their own inherent sadistic tendencies and used 'discipline' as an outlet for their anger problems and rage issues. I SAW this, FIRST HAND, as a child growing up with the children of fundamentalist Christians. Further, some parents felt OBLIGATED to engage in physical discipline, when it was not really necessary, so they would not be seen by God as being 'too soft' or 'too permissive' as parents.

Second, Dobson's teachings are part of an overall conceptual schema (George Lakoff would call it a 'frame') that is the basic structure of the conservative political orientation.

Dobson's paternalistic, patriarchal, strict father, disciplinarian model is the (largely unconsciousness) basis for many people's embrace of political conservatism. That is the most important reason I think this man needs to be vilified, ridiculed, and discredited.

[NightTrain]

72. NightTrain: "Beat the fuck out of Dobson, in the name of justice!"

[ClearMessage]

73. The case against spanking children

I posted this a while back... there's the original article

[proud2BlibKansan]

74. Dobson lost me when

he interviewed Ted Bundy right before he was executed. Bundy told him that porn had made him a serial killer. And Dobson believed him. Anyone who knows anything about Bundy knows he was a master manipulator. And Dobson fell right into Bundy's trap.

What a moran.