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Why don't we have mental institutions for the criminally insane?

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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:31 AM
Original message
Why don't we have mental institutions for the criminally insane?
We could learn so much instead of putting these people to death. Jeffrey Dahmer is a perfect example. There is a difference between evil and insane. If we would study them and learn why they do this at least the deaths of innocent people would not be in vane.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. We have a friend that works at one in Atascadero (CA)
His wife used to work there too (both Psy majors) She quit after being attacked. The inmates are of the Dr Lector sort. The average mentally ill doesn't get in.

We could use some more for the middling-psychotic. But it takes $$$. Reagan closed most of ours in CA during his reign as governor.
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. I say ; off them and then dissect them.
Let's see what we learn.
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blackcat77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Very offensive
I work for an advocacy group for people with mental illnesses.

But while I hope you aren't being serious, I really worry that someday it might come to that. If you aren't considered to be treatable, it may be the norm to kill you rather than pay for the care you need.
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two gun sid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. We do
The White House and The Pentagon.
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Verve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. LOL! n/t
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
5. We do
If someone is found criminally insane (such as Hinkley) he is put into a mental institution for the criminally insane. Dahmer was killed by fellow inmates BTW he actually had gotten life in prison due to Wisconsin not having a death penalty.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
7. There are institutions for the criminally insane
or at least there were.
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eternalburn Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
8. I saw an interview with the woman who has Gacy's brain....
...She was a doctor of something or other and was studying it. One of the points she was very clear on was the virtual absence of live study on any serial killers. Apparently is is close to impossible to get permission from the government.

Her problem was that you can only study a dead brain so much. There's limit to what it can tell you. A live brain shows reaction, chemical flow, things a dead brain won't.

Killing people isn't an answer, it's a poor solution. People that do horrible things should never be allowed to walk the streets. A life sentence should mean a life sentence. That time should be used to try and figure out what makes these people tick, then maybe we can stop it from happening to someone else.

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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Serial killers
Are people with no empathy.
If you want to study serial killers
Get up close to a bully,an abuser,a wife beater or person who mistreats animals.They are IMHO not mentally ill.
I say that because they cannot feel empathy.They cannot imagine what another person feels as the other person is not really real to a sociopath.To them other people are tools to exploit,dolls for their amusement,and to be used.

Sociopaths are what makes living in a society of people miserable.
Bullies,con men,abusers,narcissists,they are lesser versions of full blown sociopaths,and they too are responsible for alot of human misery in relationships.

If sociopaths are dishonest andwon't let themselves be studied and if no one can help them develop empathy enough to live among others once they are past certain ages, than what do you do?

Sociopaths apparently see other people as thier toys.Sometimes a person makes bad choices and reformers desire to overide a sociopaths choices,and thier compassion does not make them change.And innocent people get hurt by this misguided sense of empathy for those with no empathy.And it is the victims who need empathy. Not the killers who decided to have no empathy.

Pedophiles have very high recidivism rates.What they do to kids for 'fun' can hurt a kid for the rest of their life. So how many "chances" are you willing to risk an innocent kids mental health for life because you want to reform a pedophile who does not want to reform himself,who sees nothing wrong with his fetish that scars kids for life and does not care really who he hurts? Why risjk it,for what,hasen't the pedophile given up his freedom because he chooses to not police himself?
Sometimes you have to cut your losses even with human beings..
Because some human beings have chosen to be inhuman and can't live among people anymore.It's treagic but how much are you willing to risk innocent people who do not deserve to be subjected to a sociopath who has chosen to not control himself when he isn't cocerced,babysat and supervised by a cop with a gun?


If the sociopath refuses to change and control himself ..And refuses to be honest about it,and is only lying about changing than what can you do with someone unwilling to change himself and who to do what he wants will lie about it..onvincingly? You can stop believing he will change after a certain point.An abused person will never be able to love or tolerate an abuser into deciding to stop abusing them.Change comes from within a person alone,not from other people's pressure,reward or punishment games, or coercion or misplaced trust from others.They appear to change when they think they won't get away with doing what they want to do.. If you think about it sometimes sociopaths are in effect saying they want to die because they simply will not choose to live at peace with others and respect them.
Maybe the time to convince them to make another choice about their own character is long past. So you cut your losses.

An abuser of trust,is incompatible existing within the confines of the real social cohesion factors that make human beings able to cooperate and exist together,Cohesion factors like reciprocal trust,empathy,peace,and equality.


I don't like the state doing the death penalty because states are as a structure nearly sociopath itself. I think the state is bigoted racially.I think the state is unfit to decide life or death.
I think convicted criminal sociopaths should be sentenced by the victims they hurt.In a manner that disallows cruelty.


I don't think sociopaths,abusers,bullies or narcissists are mentally ill at all. Thier behaviors serve them in thier social contexts well.If it was unprofitable to be an abuser and nobody tolerated it,the bully wouldn't do it,they'd do something else.I think sociopaths are basically sick in their character.And they like being the way they are. Society rewards them. So they are unwilling to be any other way.They have no reason to change that is good enough in thier own heart because they can't feel why they are wrong..
They are sick in their heart in a way where they can lie to the point they have shut down their own conscience and empathy maybe at first it was not conscious,but as they got older it may have become a conscious choice.Abusers know right from wrong.And they don';t care as long as they can get away with it.Bullies bully because they can and believe no one around them will restrain them or stop them..And this makes the abusive person incompatible with any group of people.Sociopaths are incompatible psychologically and ethically with any people in any culture that survives through encouraging honesty,equality,anti abuse, integrity,peace,cooperation,negotiations, and good relationships that are mutually satisfying . And if a sociopath person refuses to live and let live,and abuses people,and kills them,they have decided to exile themselves from the rest of us who choose to get along,and not beat,maim,abuse and kill,by their chosen actions.

We kill dogs that bite people.They are dangerous. We don't bother rehabbing them for a reason,usually..because they bite.
So when does a human being decide to become as a rabid dog why do we let them go on to abuse and abuse again??
Is it because they are humans in body only that we spare them and let them abuse? When is enough enough?
Society gives perks to abusive competitive power seekers who lie the best.Look at the shallow,two faced,dominant, glib, popular, sarcastic players in a group they are "on top" because they hurt others and get away with it because of charisma and the way our societry relates to certain narissitic people in a way that identifies with them in a unhealthy way aklmost like an enchantment. It's a game narcissists like exploiting just fine.. Society on some level has a form of Stockholm syndrome .That is why we elect the same criminals we do to lead the country,and support dishonest politicians that time and again lie,produce scandals, and abuse our trust. Too many americans are like battered spouses politically.
When people are honest enough to admit abusers are abusing them and that is not OK , there is no excuses or reasons for it at all AND CALL IT WRONG,things will change,and some sociopaths will find a reason to give up thier bad behaviors,it won't be profitable for them anymore.
.For a society to have empathy and integrity we ourselves have to have it and stand up for it even if it means risking our comfort and not being a bystander.



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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Thanks for making that distinction
There is a very important difference between a person who is at the mercy of hallucinations or delusions and one who is incapable of experiencing empathy.
To equate the two diminishes the experience of people who are tortured by their own brain chemistry.
Missouri has a "hospital\home" that houses sex offenders who are classified as mentally ill- not criminally insane. Most of them are pedophiles and they are pretty much sentenced for life.
I strongly object to the fact that it is funded by the Department of Mental Health rather than the Department of Corrections. I don't like them being grouped with people who CAN BE helped and don't belong in prison. It sends a bad message.
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Robin Hood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
9. I work at one flew over the cockoos nest psych hospital.
And it is a forensic institution(Criminally insane). People have been studying insanity and anti social personality dis-orders for thousands of years. There is a difference between the mentally ill and the anti social criminal mind. While they may be both ill. One is of an organic disorder(Mental illness), and the other is a personality disorder.

Personality disorders are extremely difficult to treat and most therapists can not effectively treat someone with a severe personality disorder such as anti-social or borderline personality disorders.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I don't study that, professionally, per se
but having covered a number of criminal trials, I know what you say is true.

The thing is, that the personality disorder - such as a bent toward pedophilia - is NOT curable, at least not that I know of. Bush is, wouldn't you say, anti-social bording on psychotic (probably psychotic, but he's been in such a bubble, who knows). We certainly know that he's different in private versus public - and controlling.

These people are the only reason I support the death penalty. I do (yeah, I'll get bashed, but I do). But, I do wonder why we're the only country, with two instances in England, that has seriel killers. We are, you know. Something in the water? No. It's something in the so-called puritanism.
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Devlzown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. There was at least one in Russia.
A movie called "Citizen X" was made about him. Donald Sutherland (one of my faves) is in it. The main reason it took so long to catch him was because some of the Soviet hierarchy thought that serial killing was a decadent Western problem.
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Serial killers are a global phenomenon
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 02:13 AM by AlienGirl
There are serial killers in all countries, and in all societies big enough to support the kind of anonymity a serial killer needs for his "hunt."

Just to name the first few cases that come to mind, Russia had Sergei Shipin, Uganda had Richard Arinaitwe, and Germany had Peter Kurten.

Tucker
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
15. we put them in the * administration instead
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