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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:22 AM
Original message
Pope says even if man has HIV/Aids, can't use condom.
Washington Post: Condoms, Africa & the Catholic Church

Pope John Paul says that even if a man has HIV/Aids, he cannot use a condom.

by Karen de Young, Washington Post

When Southern Africa's Roman Catholic bishops held their semi-annual meeting in Pretoria, South Africa last month, the issue at the top of the agenda was a proposal to approve the use of condoms for AIDS prevention.

The bishops - from South Africa, Botswana and Swaziland, were well aware that the Vatican bans condoms, regardless of whether their intended use is contraception or disease prevention.

But with more than 25 million Africans now infected with HIV/AIDS, many at the meeting felt "we have to be able to say something", said Cape Town Auxiliary Bishop Reginald Cawcutt. "We need the wisdom of Solomon. And we know -- we're really really aware that the world is waiting for us. So is the Vatican".

In the end, the Bishops gave the Vatican no cause for concern. After five days of closed-door debate, they pronounced the "widespread and indiscriminate promotion of condoms........an immoral and misguided weapon in our battle against HIV-AIDS".

By undermining abstinence and marital fidelity, they said, "condoms may even be one of the main reasons for the spread of HIV-AIDS".

http://www.actupny.org/reports/churchblows.html
----------------------------

Well, there you have it. I have a funny feeling the Pope doesn't like Africans.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. Once again, hideously out of step with reality
Sure, these people aren't supposed to be having sex unless they are having kids. And that's worked oh so well for the past 2,000 years. So instead, we encourage these people to have unprotected sex when they have a fatal disease? Face it John Paul, people are going to have sex whether you think God wants them to or not. So lets try to not kill anymore people and leave more children without parents and a home...unless you want to take them all in.
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TwentyFive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. The Pope doesn't care if people die. Catholic church has killed millions.
The Catholic church is more evil than even the fundies. Catholic priests and nuns used to teach kids that the Jews killed Christ their savior.

I was bullied & beaten by the catholic kids growing up, just because I wasn't catholic.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. I'm Catholic...
and I would never bully anyone. But, I wasn't taught that.

I married an Muslim, am best friends with a Jew.

I'm a walking UN. Heh!

I'm the daughter of hippie Catholics. :)
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. Yeah, that's not a bigoted statement at all...
:eyes:

And the fundies STILL teach that Jews killed Jesus, and they also teach that everyone except them is going to hell. Don't start the "that religion is stupider than this religion" crap. It's the same thing as "my religion is better than your religion"
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TwentyFive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Obviously, you didn't grow up non-catholic around 75% catholic population.
Not even Pat Robertson would tell HIV infected people to KILL OTHERS by NOT WEARING A CONDOM!

This is par for the course for the catholic church - they have ZERO respect for human rights! Open your eyes! What kind of a church would move KNOWN child molesters into new towns - give them a cloak of goodness and authority - and put them near children? If they treat their own so badly - can you imagine the contempt they have for non-catholics?

Before anybody starts calling observable as facts bigotry - I suggest they read up on the history of the catholic church.

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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Yeah, I just live in a Baptist town where people tell me im going to hell
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 02:37 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
daily. Oh and Pat Robertson just said that the World Trade center was brought down by abortion and single mothers. AND they also suggested the Tsunami victims deserved that. And Robertson DOES halt the use of Condoms by encouraging the U.S. to quit supplying Condoms to Africa. That wasn't the Catholic Church that did that, that was pure Fundy-ism. It wasn't the Catholic Church that forced Bush to say there was no evidence condoms protected against AIDS.
Geez, you really need to step out of your myopic vision and look around. This is a stupid as fuck decision from the Pope, but to say the Catholic Church is more evil than Fundies? You must not know fundies. Sorry you got beat up as a kid, but that's not the fault of the Catholic Church. Football players beat the shit out of kids on a daily basis, doesn't mean that the NFL told them to do it.

Oh And Pat Robertson would also say that HIV is the fault of the victim anyway, gawd's punishment and all for homosexuality.

ANYONE with this position is fucked up, but to lay it solely at the feet of the Catholic Church is ridiculous.
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TwentyFive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #21
22.  I'm NOT saying the fundies are good.
I'm not myopic. I lived in Dallas for over 5 years, and most fundies I dealt with there are sanctimonious bastards. The Catholics in Dallas were in a minority, and are nothing like the catholics of the northeast where I grew up.

I never got beat up by any football players...but I almost lost my left eye getting getting beat up by 3 'good' catholic kids when I was 9 years old. I have a scar there to prove it. And the worst thing about it....these fu&king catholics see nothing wrong with with hurting an outsider. You grow up in a town of majority catholics, and they will kick the sh!t out of you!! You will also be an outcast, and the mental damage can be worse.

Try reading about when the catholic church holds political power - like the Inquisition. I don't know how anybody can objectively look at how the catholic church handled their child molesting priests...and conclude they are anything but evil. Yes, Robertson and the fundies are also evil, but they are amateurs compared to the catholic church.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Ok, how about the witch hunts?
Or the purging during Elizabeth II's time. Or the current problems in N. Ireland? The Inquisition killed 6000 victims. The witch hunts easily killed as many. Again, being a minority of ANY type in a town of small minded people will result in being an outcast. It's not limited to the cathoic church, it's not even limited to religion.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Bottom Line, you can't judge a whole class of people by the actions of a
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 09:44 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
few. If you do, there is no telling where it will end. If I wanted to make a really dumbass statement I could say "well, most of the murders involving innocent indigent peoples were committed by whites. My cousin was picked on by whites as a kid because of his dark skin We were the only hispanic family in our town. Why do whites feel like it's ok to pick on those who are not like them? Whites have begun all of the major wars in history. Whites are the most evil race, after all, Hitler was white (and so is the pope)." That is a stupid, bigoted statement, and it's not true. Neither is "Catholics are evil, Catholics think it's ok to hate people different than them...etc. etc. etc."

And believe me, I'm not defending the pope, or the church heierarchy. I don't agree with much they say...in fact the only thing in recent memory that I do agree with is that the Iraq war is wrong. I find their stance on sex and sex education appalling and their views on women's role in the church archaic and downright sexist. But that doesn't taint all Catholics no more than having Bush be our president means all Americans are evil and hateful.
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #26
37. happens here every damned day n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #26
41. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #41
54. I have no loyalty to any church.
Edited on Sun Jan-30-05 10:02 PM by SemiCharmedQuark
I think for myself.

You live in the United States. Your president is a murderer. So, even though you had no say in the war, he still went to war. So by your logic you are a murderer if you choose to remain in the United States. Have fun in Canada. Although since they tend to be progressive there people that make sweeping statements like "All Catholics are evil" probably won't fit in too well.
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RPM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
44. true - but you can judge an institution by its actions...
...and by what it has aoplogized for & what it has left unresolved. The Catholic church, as an institution, is at the root of many, many grevious and heinous crimes against humanity, literally (e.g. the inquisition, crusades and the current condoms in africa situation)and figuritavely (the general oppression of scientific inquiry).

I judge the institution on those acts and the willingness to accept them as part of a "glorious history of catholicism" and I judge it harshly.

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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. His statements will cause more people to get AIDS and die from it
vicariously, Pope John Paul II is guilty of exhortation to murder/suicide.

Sorry, a friend of mine died of AIDS a couple years ago, so I have reason to be offended.
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StevieM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
2. Pathetic (eom)
x
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Verve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
3. I find it difficult that the pope can make any kind of statement in his
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 12:31 AM by Verve
perpetual comatose state!
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
4. Please tell me this isn't true, that there's a misquote someplace.
Please tell me that so I won't consider this Pope a cretinous asshole.
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Crusoe, I will find you a direct quote
from his Holiness John Paul. I originally found this article on a Swedish online newspaper. I didn't think it would be fair to post a link to it since it's a little hard to read.

I'll find it. Believe me, this is making huge news in Europe right now. The Swedes are apoplectic over it. They are so up in arms, that they are threatening to take action against the Vatican.

That's how I found out about it. And believe me, the Swedes are not the excitable type. They're very quiet, never make a scene.

I think their patience has run out, though.


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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Hi, cliss. Well, I don't blame the Swedes for being upset.
Again, I wasn't there to hear John Paul say this, but if it is an accurate quotation, I think he needs to be held accountable.

Every physician in the world should be publicly denouncing anyone who makes a claim like that.

Unbelievable.
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Gloria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
5. This stuff just sounds more and more ridiculous...You have
wonder about people who really "believe" this stuff at this point.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
6. A new low even for the anti-science movement: GRS Grim Reaper Syndrome
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
7. I guess the pope won't wear one when he goes and fucks himself
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
10. words fail to convey the sheer hatred I feel about things like this.
It is absolutely unconscionable. They are completely evil on this matter.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
13. Apparently prolonged celibacy causes brain damage.
(Yeah, I know all delusional cults come out with crap like this, not just those which hate sex. However those particular varieties do seem especially vengeful.)
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
14. The Pope is not racist
He just really believes that people are good.

Is he out of touch? Yes.
Is he benevolent? Oh, hell, yes!
Is he evil? No. He's just a poor old coot who loved learning more than women and doesn't have any measure on which to base the reality of the flesh. He's harmless, personally, but doesn't understand, that, bless his heart, he's still revered, which hurts people.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #14
28. Harmless?
Is that the word you meant to use?
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TwentyFive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
43. The pope is not the only one who is out of touch with reality.
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 02:23 PM by TwentyFive
Without catholics - the pope and all his bishops & cardinals would be just a bunch of silly old men. Catholics' loyalty to the catholic church is greater than any concern they have for the thousands who will become HIV infected, and probably die of AIDS.

Catholics give catholic leaders their credibility - and enable those old bastards to inflict misery & suffering on the world.

They are all evil!

<edited for grammar>
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
50. The Pope of all people should understand that people aren't good
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 04:46 PM by JVS
The Pope claims to be the head of a Christianity. A fundamental principle of Christianity is the inability of humans to be without sin and thus the necessity of repentance and forgiveness through Christ's sacrifice on the cross. It should be obvious to him that people are going to screw
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
57. Not Evil? And I'm Marie of Rumania
The Pope and the RCC (the institution) are among the most corrupt and evil things on this earth.
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skippythwndrdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
58. I see a bunch of damned bigots here.
I am a proud Catholic. Jesus, himself, founded the Catholic Church, appointing Peter, (Kepha (rock) in Aramaic) as his first Pontifex Maximus (Chief Bridgebuilder). The Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra.
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man4allcats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
15. Re: "I have a funny feeling the Pope doesn't like Africans."
Either that, or he's just a senile idiot.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. That, too. eom
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
18. This is from 2001...do you have anything more recent that I can pass on?
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 01:41 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
And why are the Swedes angry about this NOW...were there recent developments or something?
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
38. Sorry, Semi. Yes, there is
more recent stuff on the Internet. I read about this on a Swedish online newspaper on Wednesday. This is all recent, within the past 2 weeks.

I just didn't want to link to a foreign newspaper, it just doesn't seem fair. So I searched around for an english link, but I didn't check the date.

I'll try to find out exactly what's riling up the Swedes so much. And it's very recent.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #38
55. Yeah, my grandma mentioned she saw something on TV in passing.
But the academy awards are coming up and I guess the news has more important things to cover because I haven't seen anything about it since.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
24. From a reformed catholic.....the pope is a dumbass.
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
25. But of course... condoms are the reason for the spread of HIV...
how silly of me to think the opposite all these years.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
27. More Faith Based Idiocy From The Pope...

What is WRONG with the Pope??!! Is he insane? Or just cruel?

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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Horribly out of touch and so entrenched in creating "the law" that it
probably would qualify as insanity.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
30. That is evil
It is evil to allow a disease that kills people to spread by preaching something that is completely untrue.
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
31. total insanity masquerading as religion
unfuckingbelievable!

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Stirk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
32. I don't take sex advice from virgins, myself.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
33. So these men are free to infect their wives if they aren't already
and kill them to create more orphans in Africa?
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #33
53. Often, the babies of HIV postive mothers are born infected
Unless serious and expensive medication is given during pregnancy. These women do NOT have access to that medication.

Bringing HIV positive babies into the world just to suffer and die is cruel.

The church is being beyond reckless by saying something that promotes the spread of AIDS.

What is even more frightening, is that people respect and believe this because of their blind faith to the church.

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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
34. Every Sperm is Sacred!
"Every Sperm Is Sacred", Lyrics by Michael Palin and Terry Jones.

There are Jews in the world, there are Buddists,
There are Hindus and Mormons and then
There are those that follow Mohammad, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six footer,
You don't have to have a great brain,
You don't have to have any clothes on,
You're a Catholic the moment Dad came, because

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Let the heathen spill theirs,
On the dusty ground,
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

Every sperm is wanted,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.

Hindu, Taoist, Morman,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.

Every sperm is useful,
Every sperm is fine,
God needs everybody's,
Mine, and mine, and mine.

Let the pagans spill theirs,
O'er mountain, hill and plain.
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
http://www.mwscomp.com/sound.html
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
35. Ah yes....the Catholic Church once again proves it is out of touch with
reality. They could do so much good if they would let go of their archaic idiocies.
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freestyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
36. The Catholic Church places dogma ahead of life
That is just evil. Being against condom use promotes the spread of HIV and is in many cases a death sentence for the terribly disempowered wives of infected men. These clergy are saying maintaining the possibility of pregnancy is more important than saving lives. There is no word for this but evil.
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
39. Oh dear God
From all reports he is an intelligent man. Why would he say something like that? I want to vomit. My information is that HIV is trending up at this point of time, so in 20 years 1 in 8 people will be infected--I don't have a link just went to some training recently. An a man this influential, comes out with this?
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. I took a public health class about 10 years ago.....
and the instructor was worried about AIDS in Africa even back then. She predicted that by 2050, 1 our of every 2 Africans on the entire African continent would be dead from AIDS.

It's a killer. And the numbers are not going down. For the Pope and the church to say this, is like sentencing these poor people to death.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Whether God exists, whether catholicism is overall right or not,
the fact of the matter is that the infallibility of Catholic Dogma has been thouroughly refuted to the point where even popes have admitted to it.

There is no excuse for catholics to allow thier church to continue to base thier beliefs off of the ignorance of the church's past when it isnt even a secret that catholic dogma has been demonstrably wrong before.
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TwentyFive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. The pope is evil. His followers are enablers - and are more evil.
I blame the enablers. Without followers, the pope is just another old man wearing a silly costume.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
40. Living proof...
that these people are not pro-life.
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PowerToThePeople Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
42. Alzheimer's
He has lost his mind.
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hollowdweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
47. Talk about straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel

Another emphasis of rigid dogmatisim rather than realistic compassion.
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JackD76 Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
49. I hate organized religion
This is what happens when religion ignores science and only pays attention to faith. It may have served them well 2000 years ago but things need to change with the times.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. That's Ass backwards! Again, religious dogma defies fact and reason
When will it end?
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
51. Massacure says Pope is a dumbass. That is all.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 10:10 PM
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56. this is beyond ignorant





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