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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:49 AM
Original message
"If we dont' finish 'the job', all those people will have died in vain"
I heard some jerkoff say that yesterday.

Finish the job? This is a con job from the start, like most wars of aggression. What the hell IS the job?

When the elections are over, is that the end of the job? When there are Wal-marts on every corner, is the job done? When Johnny comes marching home, will that finish the job?

When 200,000 people are dead, is the job approaching completion?

The logic behind finishing the job in Iraq seems to be stealing the oil, killing anyone who gets in the way and paving Iraq with asphalt.
Similar to the 'job' we did on the native Americans.

We will stay the course, until 'the job' is done, says the man playing the president, a man who has never had a real job in his entire useless life, other than cheerleader for the team.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. Here's the answer to that bullshit argument
"That's what they said about Vietnam for ten years."
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. "Victory with Honor"
another term from those fondly remembered days.
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Rapcw Donating Member (567 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
57. that was my first thought also n/t
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. You don't send live bodies after dead bodies.
Not to hold up a war that was never justified. More importantly, from this point on, now that the world knows that we have no justification for being there, people will judge us on what we do. The world opinion is that we should leave Iraq and the longer we delay, the more Sadaam Husseins and bin Ladens we create for our children to fight when they grow older.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
3. So how many people have to die before we say ENOUGH!
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. And THAT, Ladies and gentlemen
is the $666 BILLION DOLLAR QUESTION!
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Ironpost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Bunches
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. specifically, American G.I.'s, cause we don't count the Dead citizens
the magic number 1,500 dead g.i.'s will be here in a week or so, but these are merely numbers and statistics.

I imagine that when we are all broke as Mexican immigrant workers, some might start to say 'enough', cause money talks and 2 or 3 thousand dead soldiers walks.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:10 AM
Response to Original message
8. since there were no wmd's
they died in vain anyway.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:12 AM
Response to Original message
9. They've already died in vain
The only question is how many more will join them.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #9
31. This Is So Callous. Cruel & Unhelpful. They Died Doing Their Jobs
and they are to be commended for doing their jobs.

It's their BOSS who screwed up. The Commander in Chief is taking professional soldiers and abusing them and his own job title.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. in vain: To no avail, useless, as in All our work was in vain.
Bush's criminal stupidity sent them to do that job, but the work they were doing was in a bad cause. And sacrificing more lives will not redeem their sacrifice.

Or as someone once asked, "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:14 AM
Response to Original message
10. They have already died in vain. To continue means that more
people will die in vain.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
11. As has been already pointed out....
They already did "Die in Vain"...

Unless the "mission" is to put Shrubya into the History books as having killed more American men for nothing than LBJ.

And the Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqi civilians, too.
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Stockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
12. "Bring the troops home"
What about you broke it you own it?

Really tricky issue IMO.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. "I" didn't break Iraq, and "I" don't want to own it
that's another bizarre bumpersticker philosophy. it's not tricky to me, bush broke it, and bush technically owns it for now. but the real owners have a different idea.
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Stockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #13
23. Bumpersticker or not
IMHO it is a bit more complex. A civil war now would not benefit Iraq.

The problem with this occupation is not only that the administration forgot to put in a rapid exit strategy. Doing so now would not necessarily benefit the Iraqi people.

And I did not mean you as in you personally (or anyone else on DU), I hope you know that.

But I have to question "own it for now". He owns it period.

Also about the "real owners" - who are they? Saying that the US should not have a responsibility for its actions seems strange.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
28. What about we ask the REAL owners, the Iraqis.
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 08:58 AM by LynnTheDem
They've been saying get the hell OUT for months now though, and ain't no one listening to them, left or right.

Would a civil war later benefit them?

Civil war or not, that's up to the Iraqis. They're not stupid little children that need telling what to do.

It's their country & they want us OUT.

No one told us not to have a civil war, and no one interefered with ours. If they had, we would have killed them...and then continued with our own business of fighting our civil war.
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xpat Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #12
34. Bush broke it
so he owns it, not me.
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OneTwentyoNine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
14. Dumb ass....They died in vain over LIES,you can't change that...
Freetards.....
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Ironpost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
15. At this point finishing the job would be to quit killing Iraq people
and then somehow pay for rebuilding their cities, sincerely asking forgiveness but mostly getting our butts out of their country. In the long run they will be stronger for it. They will be cautiously watching to make sure this can never happen again. Come to think of it so will we... I'm afraid its going to be a long hard miserable slog
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. sounds simple enough
but the monsters like to do things the complicated way. it would be just as easy to be Christ-like, and the results would be so much nicer.
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
17. This job will never be finish
The Iraq people will never forget what happen. Well let see what happen after the election. My guess is US troops will jsut withraw to their 14 bases build to protect the oil field and pipeline. They will watch while the civil war erupt and Iraqies kill Iraqies.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #17
29. Iraqis won't kill Iraqis in a civil war
They never have in their very long history.

What they're doing now is exactly what they did to Britain, the first time Britain invaded & occupied Iraq.

The foreign fighters are the problem. That's who the Iraqis are attacking. And we're the foreign fighters.
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #29
47. I think the
Americans will just sit in the pretty base they build to protect the oil. Only thing is the fighters will be organising how to attack the base. Wont be long before they hit it with a missile.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
18. What's that phrase again? Oh, I remember ...
They've already died in vain so GET OVER IT!

There ... feels better already doesn't it? No??
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. bush refused to show remorse or grief in this press conference
when asked about the helicopter crash with 31 G.I.'s and 6 others killed that day in combat, making it the worst day for U.S. casualties SINCE THE WAR BEGAN, and absolutely refused to show any human agony over it, and even seemed pissed, and moved to the next question quickly.

he's not really human.
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Yeah, I can't watch him smirk while he spins away
31 dead as just some kind of PR problem.
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susu369 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. I found his press conference statement revealing
bu$h*: "And, obviously, any time we lose life it is a sad moment,"

MOMENT????? I'd say it's quite a bit more than a f**king moment.

You summed it up perfectly here:

"absolutely refused to show any human agony over it, and even seemed pissed, and moved to the next question quickly.

he's not really human."

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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
20. Some idiot on cspan said that the other day.
And you watch, other repuke callers will continue to repeat that drivel. Other repeated talking points by the repukes is when they say we brought the fighting over there to keep them from fighting over here. Oh, and another that really pisses me off is when they say those terrorists killed those people in the towers and the pentagon. What really irks me is why the moderator won't interject and tell these idiots that Iraq and Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11.
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ochazuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
22. And if those people were investment advisers...
they'd be saying that you have to buy more Enron and WorldCom stock.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
24. The job can never be finished
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
25. They used this rationale in Vietman too.
One word: HORSESHIT.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
27. They've Already Died In Vain
What an idiotic statement! Nothing we do there will take hold. It's democracy at gunpoint. Those that died will end updoing so in vain no matter the short term results. It's the long term, a vision beyond the scope of shallow thinking conservatives, that matters.
The Professor
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
30. Do Not Discount Or Minimize Or Ridicule This Sentiment.
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 09:01 AM by cryingshame
Many have lost loved ones and this sentiment will resonate with many.
That's why the GOP uses it... to manipulate people's emotions.

To tell someone "your husband died for nothing" is, among other things, unproductive anyway.

Rather than saying "died in vain" or to counter the GOP when they start this line of commentary... just say:

Soldier Smith didn't die in vain... he died doing his JOB.

And it's a shame his BOSSES (Bush & Rumsfeld) didn't do what was necessary to keep them safe.

Let's get our troops home until we get a Commander in Chief who knows what he's doing.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #30
37. just make me a list of approved words & topics so I don't screw it up
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American Tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
32. Gambler's fallacy
Better known in economics as the sunk cost effect. We've invested so much now, we can't just leave! If we keep trying, maybe we'll get everything back and win big.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. surely if we just keep killing people, it'll all work itself out
things don't have to make sense anymore now that bush is more 'relaxed'.
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SweetLeftFoot Donating Member (905 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. Yeah
Bush hocked the car to gamble on Iraq and now he's thinking if he just sticks up that 7-11 (Iran), he could win big then.
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Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
35. "the job" - euphemism for mass killing. Take this "job" and shove it.
Fuck Bush
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
38. ...............
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
40. ..................///.....................
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TNMOM Donating Member (735 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
41. it won't be finished until Israel gets what it wants
A pro-Israel, "buffer state," that can be used as an example to the rest of the Arab world.
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suegeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
42. This slogan pisses me off almost as much as when they say...
American soldiers are dying for my freedom. As in, "You much respect those kids because they are dying for your freedom."

Bullshit. Some goat farmer in Iraq was zero threat to my freedom. Those kids are dying for corporate profits and blood money.
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fob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
43. To that jerkoff I would like to quote someone HE may respect.
"My fellow Americans: Major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed"

The "job" was done on May 1, 2003. Now just bring em the fuck home.
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
44. So someone else should send his kid to die in vain to make it better? n/t
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
45. When We Stop Sending People to Kill and Die...
...we'll have to begin admitting that they're dying in vain.
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TXlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
46. With all due respect:
what do you recommend we do at this point?

I agree we went to war unneccessarily, but I think leaving Iraq in chaos is a very bad idea.

There really doesn't seem to be any winning solution i can see.

What would you say our goal going forward ought to be, and how do we achieve that?
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. I am not a diplomat or expert on foreign affairs or a head of state
I'm just a schmuck with an opinion and a keyboard.

There really doesn't seem to be any winning solution i can see.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #46
49. The Iraqi people did not ask us to make their backyard a war zone
Bush said he would take the fight to them-well he landed in Iraq and we made a mess of it. Is it moral to cut and run at this point?-after we have bombed the heck of their country. That is the quadmire to me.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. the term 'cut and run' suggests cowardice and failure
and repubs will use that phrase to death. 'we can't just cut and run', we need peace with honor etc.

I still say, cut and run, before it gets any worse.
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TXlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. You think we should just pick up and leave now?
What do you think would be the likely outcome of doing that?

Do you think that likely outcome is better than if we stay?

I am asking because perhaps what you think is a likely outcome is different than what I think it is.
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jazzjunkysue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Um, yeah.
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TXlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. What do you think will likely happen if we leave?
The country's a shambles now...

I do believe if we just picked up and left, you'd have an incredibly bloody civil war, followed by a fundamentalist regime much like the Taliban. The resulting loss of Iraqi life in such a situation is, IMHO, probably far more than what will result during the remainder of our occupation there.

Regardless of the path that led us here, I think we need to honestly critique the situation and determine the best path. If Kerry had won, and if he had said upon swearing in that we cannot merely leave, would you still have the same opinion?
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jazzjunkysue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. The same thing that will happen no matter when we leave.
"I do believe if we just picked up and left, you'd have an incredibly bloody civil war, followed by a fundamentalist regime much like the Taliban."

Yup. We knew that before we went in. Bush decided to go in on 9/12 because someone hurt his feelings. Since the occupation is totally unjustified, it doesn't matter when we leave, because we never intended to leave. There is no job that will ever be finished. There will never be a moment when we'll think it's stable enough to leave. That's why I think Kerry let it go so quickly: He didn't want clean up duty.

Might as well leave and see who rises to power, and try to influence the true rulers when they emerge. We're out of soldiers, money and desire for war. I'm not willing to prop up the middle east indefinitely. We should reverse our oil dependence and stop the oil economy. Then, we'll have no reason to occupy them.
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TXlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. *sigh* You may well be right.
Let's hope that the neocons have learned their lesson, at least, from this.
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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
52. I liked the Native American comment.
I really believe that is the "job" that is in the back of the minds of those that support this war. It's always been. "Civilizing," christening, westernizing the "other."
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jazzjunkysue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
54. Since the excuses for the occupation keep changing, we can be sure "the
job will never be done," since, every month, we change what the job is.

Abusers use this tactic all the time: "If you don't _____ I'll punish you." Then when they get ______, they change it to something else.

"You're going to ____________ until I'm happy." Fat chance of that ever happening. This is also like the typical excuse violent abusers use: "She deserved it." They don't get it that the resistance is to their own violence, and if they stopped the violence, the resistance might ease. So, if we never leave, they'll never stop hurling bombs at us, and it will give us the excuse to never leave. Wow. So simple. Right before our eyes.
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
58. I thought we already finished?
What about that "Mission Accomplished" sign?
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